Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sulacu 06-06-07, 06:08 PM	You know, I have never dared venture into the realms of greater gods in my campaigns. I like social venues and more gritty, real life situations intercoursed with some combat. However, when I read Deities and Demigods, which stats out the deities, I am wondering about something... Let's say, for a simple example, we have a greater deity, any greater deity, with a maximum attack roll of +75, and another creature, deity or not, with an AC of 100 or more. This can be a really buffed up deity, or it could be a Prismatic Dragon great wyrm, or whatever. When a normal character rolls a 20 by chance, he hits regardless of AC, but since greater deities always hit 20, does that mean they hit anything, everything, regardless of AC, even if the difference between their attack bonus and the AC is more than 20? More than 30 even, if you take into consideration the old houserule of natural 20 = 30? Any thoughts on this, because I sure as hell couldn't find any clear explanation in Deities and Demigods. Does Atk +75 vs. AC 100 imply an actual miss, or simply that the deity hits but not crits?
CryoSilver 06-06-07, 06:42 PM	Treat as rolling 20, but have the deity roll to see if it's an autohit.
Sulacu 06-06-07, 07:01 PM	Yes, does that mean that a greater deity doesn't automatically hit regardless of AC? I'm still confused
Johnny_Angel 06-06-07, 07:08 PM	I'm no expert, but this is how I interpret it: If a deity rolls a 20 -actually rolls the 20- it's a critical hit (hits regardless of AC) If a deity rolls anything else it is considered as the deity rolling a 20; you add 20 to whatever the deity's attack bonus is. So if the deity had a +75 Bab, that would be a 95. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The other way to interpret it would be that the deity always hits everything, but you still roll to see whether or not it's a critical hit (a nat 20)
Sulacu 06-06-07, 07:13 PM	Excellent, that could work for me.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-06-07, 08:13 PM	The Always Maximize Roll ability doesn't mean that the deity always hits, or always crits. It simply means that the deity always has the "number value" of twenty on attack rolls. You still need to roll to confirm criticals, and to see if you hit.
Noodles2375 06-06-07, 09:26 PM	You know, I have never dared venture into the realms of greater gods in my campaigns. I like social venues and more gritty, real life situations intercoursed with some combat. However, when I read Deities and Demigods, which stats out the deities, I am wondering about something... Let's say, for a simple example, we have a greater deity, any greater deity, with a maximum attack roll of +75, and another creature, deity or not, with an AC of 100 or more. This can be a really buffed up deity, or it could be a Prismatic Dragon great wyrm, or whatever. When a normal character rolls a 20 by chance, he hits regardless of AC, but since greater deities always hit 20, does that mean they hit anything, everything, regardless of AC, even if the difference between their attack bonus and the AC is more than 20? More than 30 even, if you take into consideration the old houserule of natural 20 = 30? Any thoughts on this, because I sure as hell couldn't find any clear explanation in Deities and Demigods. Does Atk +75 vs. AC 100 imply an actual miss, or simply that the deity hits but not crits? I'm actually a bit troubled by the wording of this in Deities and Demigods. The line by line is thus: "Greater Deities automatically get the best result possible on any check, save, attack, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly." (pg. 26) In the actual stat blocks it says "Always does max. damage" or "Always recieves a 20 on attack rolls, roll die to check for crit. hit". The wording is clumsy on pg. 26, I think a case could be made just from that text that Deities automatically succeed on anything they attempt that requires a d20 roll. But this is absolutely not supported by the wording in the stat blocks or the examples given throughout the book. In my world, if a 20 isn't good enough to hit with all of the deities bonuses, they better hope they get lucky on that d20 roll. As per usual, a natural 20 is still an auto hit regardless. That being said, it is, of course, like most problems in DnD, one that has many solutions. The old nat 20 = 30 is as good a standby as any to patch the situation.
Sulacu 06-06-07, 09:57 PM	I'm actually a bit troubled by the wording of this in Deities and Demigods. The line by line is thus: "Greater Deities automatically get the best result possible on any check, save, attack, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly." (pg. 26) In the actual stat blocks it says "Always does max. damage" or "Always recieves a 20 on attack rolls, roll die to check for crit. hit". The wording is clumsy on pg. 26, I think a case could be made just from that text that Deities automatically succeed on anything they attempt that requires a d20 roll. But this is absolutely not supported by the wording in the stat blocks or the examples given throughout the book. In my world, if a 20 isn't good enough to hit with all of the deities bonuses, they better hope they get lucky on that d20 roll. As per usual, a natural 20 is still an auto hit regardless. That being said, it is, of course, like most problems in DnD, one that has many solutions. The old nat 20 = 30 is as good a standby as any to patch the situation. That's exactly what I wanted to know, thanks :). The problem with it is clear now, though. With a normal attack roll, you first.. roll, and if you got a natural 20 or scored a threat, you roll to confirm a hit. With deities, these steps are clearly inverted. If they weren't, they always scored a threat and on top of that, they'd always hit regardless of the enemy's AC. In that regard first checking for crit and then assigning a 20 on attack roll is the other way around and I guess that's what threw me off. Heh.
Bluehero 06-06-07, 10:28 PM	As for my opinion, having just finished a god campaign, I houseruled it so that natural 20'2 count as 40, although that does tend to be a bit powerful.
Jeriaus 06-06-07, 11:07 PM	It does state that you must roll to check for crits under the abilty.
Zalakhiel 06-07-07, 04:36 AM	The PH says that a natural 20 is always a hit and a threat for a critical hit. Greater Deities always recieve the best result in every roll they make, and this includes attack rolls as well. Here is the deal: The Greater Deity attacks, so take the d20 and place it on the table with the 20 face-up. Or, if you like, use a d20 that has all facets covered with 20s and roll it normally. In other words, yes, they always hit and always score a threat (such is the power of a Greater Deity anyway), but roll the threat normally (with a regular d20 ;) ); otherwise they would always score an instant kill on everything they ever desired to attack-no fair! It`s as if every roll of theirs is affected by an out-game Alter Reality effect, except it always gives them the result they want-which is the best possible. Phew, I`m beat... :P
Mirtek 06-07-07, 08:00 AM	In other words, yes, they always hit and always score a threat (such is the power of a Greater Deity anyway), No, it isn't. A quick look into the official FAQ could have ended this thread with the first answer: Does the always maximize roll ability of greater deities mean that these beings always receive a natural 20 on every attack and saving throw roll? If so, doesn’t that mean that a greater deity will always hit on an attack, will always threaten a critical hit, and will always make its saving throw? If this is the case, why doesn’t Deities and Demigods specifically state under the entry for each individual greater deity that the deity always hits, always threatens a critical hit, and always makes its save, much as these entries say that the deity always deals a certain amount damage on a successful attack due to its maximize roll ability? Deities and Demigods does not say greater deities always hit, always threaten a critical hit, and always make their saving throws because they don’t always hit, don’t always threaten a critical hit, and don’t always make their saving throws. The description of the always maximize roll ability on page 26 of Deities and Demigods tells you to roll a die when a deity attacks. The die roll must indicate a threat before the deity can deal a critical hit. (No matter what that die roll is, you still use a value of 20 for the value of the die roll when determining what Armor Class the attack hits.) Note that the deity also maximizes its confirmation roll when it achieves a threat, so it is virtually assured of confirming the critical hit. In the very rare case that a maximized attack roll would not be sufficient for a hit, the deity still hits if he or she rolls a natural 20 for his attack roll. As Deities and Demigods notes in the section on attacks on page 26, no deity automatically misses on a roll of a natural 1, so a greater deity does not automatically miss if he or she rolls a natural 1 on his or her attack roll. Likewise, a greater deity does not get a natural 20 and an automatic success on any saving throw, but it is never at risk of automatically failing on a roll of a natural 1. As with attacks, if a die result of 20 is not sufficient for a successful saving throw, a greater deity still has a chance to roll a die and automatically succeed with a natural 20.
Zalakhiel 06-07-07, 10:11 AM	... I see... I never got to look at the FAQs to tell the truth, but that is how I understood the description in DDs. Guess I was wrong. Oh well... Here is a :cookie: for Mirtek. Thanks for correcting me! :)
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-07-07, 12:15 PM	The FAQ for deities and demigods says that you don't always get the auto-hit or auto-crit. I was sad when I read it. :weep: But, look on the bright side; when you always have a number value of twenty, you hit most of the time anyway. If you are Greater Deity that isn't hitting things with a result of twenty, run - because your fighting Galactus and his natural armor of DOOM!!! :P
Mirtek 06-07-07, 01:56 PM	If you are Greater Deity that isn't hitting things with a result of twenty, run - because your fighting Galactus and his natural armor of DOOM!!! :P Don't forget that the deities in DDG are basically naked. Equip them with magic items appropriate to the wealth for their character level and they will start to hit a lot more.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-07-07, 02:01 PM	Don't forget that the deities in DDG are basically naked. Equip them with magic items appropriate to the wealth for their character level and they will start to hit a lot more. Yeah, our group doesn't believe in that "gods don't need magic items" stuff either. We are all ascended adventurers, and adventurers love magic items. :D
Reign_of_Ice 06-08-07, 11:10 AM	We always just assumed in our group that it was only a modifier they could add when they didn't feel like rolling. And it was a sure thing to add that 20 to the attack roll, but it would never threaten or be able to be confirmed. In order to threaten (and thus confirm a crit) the deity would have to roll the bones and take their chances.
turalisj 06-09-07, 12:36 AM	Greater god blinks, you go boom. No save and no chance of Ressurect. There, done.