Grundar, Flame of the Forge (new deity - PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Grundar, Flame of the Forge (new deity - PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
01-10-08, 10:39 PM I've never designed a deity before, so here's my first shot. The idea came to me when I found a new domain in a 3rd party book (The Last City by Goodman Games) that I really liked, but it seemed inherently evil, so I'd never get a chance to use it. This deity flowed from this idea. He embodies the philosophy of personal growth through adversity. "Forged in the fires of strife," if you will. And hence he became a dwarven deity. Give me your thoughts. The name is currently a place filler, and I have no clue about alignment.

Grundar, Flame of the Forge

Symbol: An open hand with a figure in its palm, bearing some sign of burden. Typically he is chained down or carries a heavy weight on his back.
Alignment: true neutral
Portfolio: personal growth, fortitude, hardship, triumph
Worshippers: dwarves, monks, heroes, those seeking self-improvement (the hard way)
Cleric Alignments: LN, NG, CN, NE
Domains: Courage (CWar), Enslavement (The Last City), Fire, Liberation, Strength, Trickery. You may substitute Domination (CDiv) for Enslavement if you do not have access to The Last City.
Favored Weapons: Net

Grundar is not the most popular of deities, for although he certainly promises growth, the experience is usually painful. Not all can withstand his tests, although he tries to not place his followers in situations he does not believe they can handle.

Dogma
Grundar represents the heat of the forge and the tempering of steel, as well as the growth of individuals through adversity. Grundar is known to test the mettle of his followers by placing them in dangerous conditions and letting them deal with the problem. However, he does so only after much consideration, having decided what trial will serve the person most, while still being within their capacity to triumph. A particularly common method of his to strike the person low and let them struggle back to higher standing than before. Capture into slavery or wrongful conviction typify his methods.

Clergy and Temples
Clerics of Grundar ever seek to improve themselves, body and soul. Moradin may have forged them, but it is life that tempers them, and their souls must uphold the dwarven standards of smithing when they return to the Soul-Forger. Their rites typify this approach and serve to further their growth. Examples include lifting symbolic weights against resistance and treading barefoot across hot coals. In fact, high ranking priests are often called "Soft Foots," renowned for their ability to do so without their feet blistering. It is rumored that the high priest must prove himself able to hammer out and forge a weapon using only his bare hands. Their chief holiday consists of one month of fasting and servitude followed by a day-long feast. Initiation rites typically require some quest or year abroad, and in these trials, skill is valued over luck.

So, what do you think? One or two parts struck me as particularly evocative, and I love it. However, I realize I'm a little imprecise on the smithing terms. IIRC, tempering (placing the freshly shaped metal in cold water) lends steel its strength. So I really ought to add the Water domain, or at least include references in their rites. Maybe even replace the fire domain, although it seems to evoke his "trial by fire" methods. It just seems like he's a tad domain heavy, especially if I add the water domain. It's really important that I have Enslavement and Liberation as a pair: he was originally all about the combination of the two for growth. I could drop Courage and Trickery, although I feel like I really need some domain to capture his unique methods.

EDIT: In light of other discussion, I'm just going to tack on this huge segment:
All right, I'll consider making Grundar true neutral (consider it done in the morning, if I remember). I'll remove trickery and add water for the tempering aspect (which is what Grundar is really about). Why does liberation belong? Because Grundar doesn't advocate slavery for slavery's sake - he advocates it for the purpose of liberation. Sure, liberation by their own hands, not his, but liberation and the struggle for it is the entire point of slavery. That sounds like liberation is vital. Plus I was going for the whole contrast in the domains. Yeah, I could imagine them working with the aboleths. In general, I see his followers as arranging monster attacks and then seeking out adventurers to prove themselves heroes. Heck, their might even be one sect that actively does evil not for the sake of evil, but for the sake of bringing out heroes. That definitely seems to fit what I imagine for Grundar. And that's why I think trickery fits. It's a matter of the clergy. Especially since they'd need escape plans for when the adventurers finally reach them.

Why does the lunar rain bear his mark? Um . . . because it's a really bad thing that's forced the world of Highpoint to grow and adapt, and it's created some true heroes. Just ask anyone from the Legion what the lunar rain did for Shar Thizdic - or the opportunities he claims it presents humanity. I mean really, the things Grundar pulls on single people or small groups is comparable to what the lunar rain is for the whole world. It doesn't exactly make him popular, and certainly it doesn't seem crazy to think it's another of his tests. Especially if I rewrite his story to be a little bit harsher on those who fail the tests, and maybe shift him over to NE. Come to think of it, I can hardly imagine him having good-aligned clerics. Or clerics who go around healing people. They're supposed to test their mettle, not serve as a crutch.
Tovec
01-13-08, 01:41 PM I get that he is about self-improvement but I have some questions.

How did he come onto the scene? What does he really stand for or champion?

You said he is about self-improvement the hard way, but that he doesn't try to put people into situations more then they can handle, why doesn't he? I think you have a decent idea but it could use some refining. Why does he look to improve, is it because there is always something more to prove or to challenge himself or to reach a state of perfection or to buck against the regiments of life? What would he be like to interact with, both as a mortal or as a god? What does he think of things, such as followers, the other gods, etc?

This may just be me, but I find it helps when you try to think why you are making a god. What epitomizes the deity, why do they exist, what do they fight for and whatnot are good questions but I find they are far easier to answer after I ask myself things like; what do they look like, how would the party interact with them, how do they fit into the pantheon, what quirks does he have, what annoys him, what makes him happy. Basically I find it easier to figure out what the deity is about as a deity if I understand what they are like as creations, as "mortals".
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
01-13-08, 03:40 PM I'll work on fleshing him out some. I do know that many of his "worshipers" take the "Oh please, do not pick me to test" approach. Because he honestly does already walk the fine line of LN and LE; his favor is more of a curse than a blessing. It means you're going to be going through hell before you can relax. In the end, I'm trying to keep him away from LE because he's meant to be a dwarven deity - one who is in fact aiming only to make them stronger. He considers himself Moradin's apprentice in the forging of souls. Also, I'm going with the interpretation that the souls that go to a deity or pantheon exist (among other things) as an armory. By making sure that dwarven souls exist at the same quality as dwarven weapons, he's making the dwarven pantheon perhaps the best-armed pantheon around. What might Moradin be planning? But in the end, I see it more as a matter of pride. Like a dwarven blacksmith takes pride in forging only the best arms and armor, the dwarven deities take pride in forging the best souls. And that's why Grundar does not limit himself to only dwarven souls. He seeks to test him own mettle by seeing what he can do with "inferior raw materials."

I especially had the Dragonmech setting in mind, where most deities have been abandoned thanks to a terrible cataclysm outside their power to prevent (although the common races don't know about their deities' powerlessness). Grundar, however, would actually advocate such an event anyway, as some sort of test. Now some people wonder if Grundar has gone mad . . . I wonder if he actually allowed the disaster to pass because it does suit his agenda.
Tovec
01-20-08, 08:30 PM Okay, I know you said you were going to try and flush him out but pretty much everything you said in there is gold in creation terms. You aren't just laying out how something is but WHY something is.

I love the idea that he tries to refine his souls just as he would refine weapons. I agree that it has to be for "I'm doing it so when [blank] comes you are ready." I love that angle. But this new information puts him as more of a refining deity then just a deity of self improvement. If anything he would be more active in daily lives of mortals then Moradin. I love that mindset, its an apocalyptic viewpoint which isn't seen enough in DnD. There are infrequently gods or even mortals making preparations for the end times.
Do you mind if I borrow Grundar if I ever do my "end times" setting? I think it would be a great beacon of light in a dying world.

Keep it up. Like I said, think Why not just How.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
01-20-08, 08:37 PM Okay, I know you said you were going to try and flush him out but pretty much everything you said in there is gold in creation terms. You aren't just laying out how something is but WHY something is.

I love the idea that he tries to refine his souls just as he would refine weapons. I agree that it has to be for "I'm doing it so when [blank] comes you are ready." I love that angle. But this new information puts him as more of a refining deity then just a deity of self improvement. If anything he would be more active in daily lives of mortals then Moradin. I love that mindset, its an apocalyptic viewpoint which isn't seen enough in DnD. There are infrequently gods or even mortals making preparations for the end times.
Do you mind if I borrow Grundar if I ever do my "end times" setting? I think it would be a great beacon of light in a dying world.

Keep it up. Like I said, think Why not just How.

Well thank you. And yes, feel free to use him. Heck, when I post my ideas, I'm not just looking to refine them - I'm looking to inspire people. The fact that you want to borrow Grundar (and asked my permission - I'm touched) means that I've accomplished what I was after. Go on. Use him to your heart's content. I've personally found that he fits in the DragonMech campaign setting quite nicely, and that's where I'll be using him. Heck, I really want to play a cleric with the liberation and enslavement domains. (Although I just like getting ray of enfeeblement, slow, and black tentacles as domain spells without being evil).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 01-10-08, 10:39 PM	I've never designed a deity before, so here's my first shot. The idea came to me when I found a new domain in a 3rd party book (The Last City by Goodman Games) that I really liked, but it seemed inherently evil, so I'd never get a chance to use it. This deity flowed from this idea. He embodies the philosophy of personal growth through adversity. "Forged in the fires of strife," if you will. And hence he became a dwarven deity. Give me your thoughts. The name is currently a place filler, and I have no clue about alignment. Grundar, Flame of the Forge Symbol: An open hand with a figure in its palm, bearing some sign of burden. Typically he is chained down or carries a heavy weight on his back. Alignment: true neutral Portfolio: personal growth, fortitude, hardship, triumph Worshippers: dwarves, monks, heroes, those seeking self-improvement (the hard way) Cleric Alignments: LN, NG, CN, NE Domains: Courage (CWar), Enslavement (The Last City), Fire, Liberation, Strength, Trickery. You may substitute Domination (CDiv) for Enslavement if you do not have access to The Last City. Favored Weapons: Net Grundar is not the most popular of deities, for although he certainly promises growth, the experience is usually painful. Not all can withstand his tests, although he tries to not place his followers in situations he does not believe they can handle. Dogma Grundar represents the heat of the forge and the tempering of steel, as well as the growth of individuals through adversity. Grundar is known to test the mettle of his followers by placing them in dangerous conditions and letting them deal with the problem. However, he does so only after much consideration, having decided what trial will serve the person most, while still being within their capacity to triumph. A particularly common method of his to strike the person low and let them struggle back to higher standing than before. Capture into slavery or wrongful conviction typify his methods. Clergy and Temples Clerics of Grundar ever seek to improve themselves, body and soul. Moradin may have forged them, but it is life that tempers them, and their souls must uphold the dwarven standards of smithing when they return to the Soul-Forger. Their rites typify this approach and serve to further their growth. Examples include lifting symbolic weights against resistance and treading barefoot across hot coals. In fact, high ranking priests are often called "Soft Foots," renowned for their ability to do so without their feet blistering. It is rumored that the high priest must prove himself able to hammer out and forge a weapon using only his bare hands. Their chief holiday consists of one month of fasting and servitude followed by a day-long feast. Initiation rites typically require some quest or year abroad, and in these trials, skill is valued over luck. So, what do you think? One or two parts struck me as particularly evocative, and I love it. However, I realize I'm a little imprecise on the smithing terms. IIRC, tempering (placing the freshly shaped metal in cold water) lends steel its strength. So I really ought to add the Water domain, or at least include references in their rites. Maybe even replace the fire domain, although it seems to evoke his "trial by fire" methods. It just seems like he's a tad domain heavy, especially if I add the water domain. It's really important that I have Enslavement and Liberation as a pair: he was originally all about the combination of the two for growth. I could drop Courage and Trickery, although I feel like I really need some domain to capture his unique methods. EDIT: In light of other discussion, I'm just going to tack on this huge segment: All right, I'll consider making Grundar true neutral (consider it done in the morning, if I remember). I'll remove trickery and add water for the tempering aspect (which is what Grundar is really about). Why does liberation belong? Because Grundar doesn't advocate slavery for slavery's sake - he advocates it for the purpose of liberation. Sure, liberation by their own hands, not his, but liberation and the struggle for it is the entire point of slavery. That sounds like liberation is vital. Plus I was going for the whole contrast in the domains. Yeah, I could imagine them working with the aboleths. In general, I see his followers as arranging monster attacks and then seeking out adventurers to prove themselves heroes. Heck, their might even be one sect that actively does evil not for the sake of evil, but for the sake of bringing out heroes. That definitely seems to fit what I imagine for Grundar. And that's why I think trickery fits. It's a matter of the clergy. Especially since they'd need escape plans for when the adventurers finally reach them. Why does the lunar rain bear his mark? Um . . . because it's a really bad thing that's forced the world of Highpoint to grow and adapt, and it's created some true heroes. Just ask anyone from the Legion what the lunar rain did for Shar Thizdic - or the opportunities he claims it presents humanity. I mean really, the things Grundar pulls on single people or small groups is comparable to what the lunar rain is for the whole world. It doesn't exactly make him popular, and certainly it doesn't seem crazy to think it's another of his tests. Especially if I rewrite his story to be a little bit harsher on those who fail the tests, and maybe shift him over to NE. Come to think of it, I can hardly imagine him having good-aligned clerics. Or clerics who go around healing people. They're supposed to test their mettle, not serve as a crutch.
Tovec 01-13-08, 01:41 PM	I get that he is about self-improvement but I have some questions. How did he come onto the scene? What does he really stand for or champion? You said he is about self-improvement the hard way, but that he doesn't try to put people into situations more then they can handle, why doesn't he? I think you have a decent idea but it could use some refining. Why does he look to improve, is it because there is always something more to prove or to challenge himself or to reach a state of perfection or to buck against the regiments of life? What would he be like to interact with, both as a mortal or as a god? What does he think of things, such as followers, the other gods, etc? This may just be me, but I find it helps when you try to think why you are making a god. What epitomizes the deity, why do they exist, what do they fight for and whatnot are good questions but I find they are far easier to answer after I ask myself things like; what do they look like, how would the party interact with them, how do they fit into the pantheon, what quirks does he have, what annoys him, what makes him happy. Basically I find it easier to figure out what the deity is about as a deity if I understand what they are like as creations, as "mortals".
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 01-13-08, 03:40 PM	I'll work on fleshing him out some. I do know that many of his "worshipers" take the "Oh please, do not pick me to test" approach. Because he honestly does already walk the fine line of LN and LE; his favor is more of a curse than a blessing. It means you're going to be going through hell before you can relax. In the end, I'm trying to keep him away from LE because he's meant to be a dwarven deity - one who is in fact aiming only to make them stronger. He considers himself Moradin's apprentice in the forging of souls. Also, I'm going with the interpretation that the souls that go to a deity or pantheon exist (among other things) as an armory. By making sure that dwarven souls exist at the same quality as dwarven weapons, he's making the dwarven pantheon perhaps the best-armed pantheon around. What might Moradin be planning? But in the end, I see it more as a matter of pride. Like a dwarven blacksmith takes pride in forging only the best arms and armor, the dwarven deities take pride in forging the best souls. And that's why Grundar does not limit himself to only dwarven souls. He seeks to test him own mettle by seeing what he can do with "inferior raw materials." I especially had the Dragonmech setting in mind, where most deities have been abandoned thanks to a terrible cataclysm outside their power to prevent (although the common races don't know about their deities' powerlessness). Grundar, however, would actually advocate such an event anyway, as some sort of test. Now some people wonder if Grundar has gone mad . . . I wonder if he actually allowed the disaster to pass because it does suit his agenda.
Tovec 01-20-08, 08:30 PM	Okay, I know you said you were going to try and flush him out but pretty much everything you said in there is gold in creation terms. You aren't just laying out how something is but WHY something is. I love the idea that he tries to refine his souls just as he would refine weapons. I agree that it has to be for "I'm doing it so when [blank] comes you are ready." I love that angle. But this new information puts him as more of a refining deity then just a deity of self improvement. If anything he would be more active in daily lives of mortals then Moradin. I love that mindset, its an apocalyptic viewpoint which isn't seen enough in DnD. There are infrequently gods or even mortals making preparations for the end times. Do you mind if I borrow Grundar if I ever do my "end times" setting? I think it would be a great beacon of light in a dying world. Keep it up. Like I said, think Why not just How.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 01-20-08, 08:37 PM	Okay, I know you said you were going to try and flush him out but pretty much everything you said in there is gold in creation terms. You aren't just laying out how something is but WHY something is. I love the idea that he tries to refine his souls just as he would refine weapons. I agree that it has to be for "I'm doing it so when [blank] comes you are ready." I love that angle. But this new information puts him as more of a refining deity then just a deity of self improvement. If anything he would be more active in daily lives of mortals then Moradin. I love that mindset, its an apocalyptic viewpoint which isn't seen enough in DnD. There are infrequently gods or even mortals making preparations for the end times. Do you mind if I borrow Grundar if I ever do my "end times" setting? I think it would be a great beacon of light in a dying world. Keep it up. Like I said, think Why not just How. Well thank you. And yes, feel free to use him. Heck, when I post my ideas, I'm not just looking to refine them - I'm looking to inspire people. The fact that you want to borrow Grundar (and asked my permission - I'm touched) means that I've accomplished what I was after. Go on. Use him to your heart's content. I've personally found that he fits in the DragonMech campaign setting quite nicely, and that's where I'll be using him. Heck, I really want to play a cleric with the liberation and enslavement domains. (Although I just like getting ray of enfeeblement, slow, and black tentacles as domain spells without being evil).