Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 03-03-07, 03:46 AM	I'm just curious as to how you'd stat out the Lady of Pain, just in case your party needed to fight her (for control of Sigil or something)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-03-07, 04:00 AM	http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Infin-XD.gif That's about what I'd do. Literally, I'd draw mocking pictographs on my notes if I had PCs that wanted to go out and fight Her Serenity. Or something like that. More realistically, assuming I had suicidal PCs, if forced into a corner there'd be little to do but flay one PC a round while musing if it would be viable to let any of them live depending on what the circumstances were. If they weren't my normal players, the temptation of making confetti out of their character sheet might be strong, especially if they were the sort of player that felt that they could beat anything because they were a PC, the hero, and special, and had some intangible right to be able to do so. But that would be mean of me, and I'm really not that bad of a person. ;) I've involved the Lady in my campaigns, or at least allusions to her involvement, as a plot device, but not as anything so defined as an NPC with a character sheet. In fact most of the major antagonists I've used over the years haven't had formal character stats. If a PC is doing anything to interact with the Lady, whatever it might be, even anything less than combat, stats are antithetical to the very idea she's based upon, and the role she was created to play. No dice needed, no stats or numbers needed, you're going to be in serious plot device/MacGuffin territory if you want to handle it without it becoming a parody of even the extremes that you see on the CharOp or Epic boards.
Khael 03-03-07, 07:25 AM	What Shemeska said, with my last words previous, on the matter to someone asking: '...if you do something that directly(or indirectly) screws up Sigils workings in which case you die[d last week]'... This is a being who is known for stopping pretty much every god from entering sigil. I don't know about you, but I'd assume that meant each stat/DC is equal to: Whatever the PCs can't handle X the infinite +10... and the above is worked out constantly so takes any buffs etc. into account.
Ohtar Turinson 03-03-07, 08:00 AM	What Shemmy and Khael are saying: She's a plot device. If you stat her, you have to stat the ring of sigil. And the spire, since hey, you might as well chop that down while we're at it. Her Serenity isn't really an NPC-- even the LN alignment given in the Planar handbook is a blunder in my (and most planescapers) opinion. She's not omnipotent (there are a very small number of things which can temporarily circumvent her rules), but plotting against her winds you up in her Mazes eventually. If they attack her or a dabus directly… no saving throws and no mercy. Flayed down to the very soul, the same punishment as for worshiping her. And I'm meaner than Shemmy. I'd definitely shred the character sheets, especially since I'd have given fair warning for a long time in advance.
Calmar 03-03-07, 08:58 AM	Adept level 3. Her stars are Str 9 Dex 11 Con 10 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 13. Everything they tell about her is completely exaggerated.
Witch 03-03-07, 09:04 AM	Here you go: The Lady of Pain Medium Outsider Hit Dice: 80d8+3200 (3840 hp) Initiative: +50 Speed: 60 ft., fly 120 ft. (perfect) AC: 110 (+22 deflection, +20 Dex, +24 insight, +34 natural) touch 76, flat-footed 110 Base Attack/Grapple: +80/+100 Attack: Spectral slash +127 melee or ranged (60 ft.) touch (20d8+46 15-20/x5 and death (Fort DC 60)) Full Attack: 2 spectral slashes +127 melee or ranged (60 ft.) touch (20d8+46 15-20/x5 and death (Fort DC 60)) Space/Reach: 5 ft. /5 ft. Special Attacks: Flay, Maze, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Cosmic Immunities, DR 50/-, darkvision, Lady’s Fortitude, Lady’s Grace, Lady’s Insight, Lady’s Purity, Lady’s Sanctity, regeneration 50, resistance to energy (all) 50, SR 100, summon dabaus, telepathy 1000 ft., true seeing. Saves: Fort +82, Ref +84, Will +88 Abilities: Str 30, Dex 50, Con 47, Int 55, Wis 59, Cha 55 Skills: Appraise +105, Balance +103, Bluff +105, Concentration +101, Diplomacy +129, Disguise +105 (+113 acting), Escape Artist +103, Gather Information +113, Heal +107, Hide +103, Intimidate +126, Jump +22, Knowledge (all) +105, Listen +107, Move Silently +103, Perform (oratory) +105, Search +105, Sense motive +107, Spellcraft +113, Spot +107, Survival +107 (+115 w/synergy), Use Magic Device +105 Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Critical (spectral slash), Improved Initiative, Mobility, Skill Focus (intimidate), Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (spectral slash) Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Devestating Critical (spectral slash), Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Epic Weapon Focus (spectral slash), Improved Combat Reflexes, Overwhelming Critical (spectral slash), Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: Sigil Organization: Solitary (Unique) Challenge Rating: 85 Treasure: Unknown Alignment: Neutral Cosmic Entity: The Lady of Pain is entitled to rank checks against deities and other cosmic entities. The Lady has a +30 to rank checks. Cosmic entities are not subject to the +4 strata differential. Flay (Ex): By looking at a creature or creatures (a full round action), the Lady may cause them to erupt in horrible wounds. Those who fail a Fortitude save DC 73 die immediately. Those who succeed merely take 10d6 Constitution and Charisma damage. The Lady may target up to ten targets with a single use of Flay, no two of which can be more than one mile apart. Lady’s Fortitude (Ex): The Lady uses her Charisma modifier in addition to her Constitution modifier to determine her bonus hit points. The Lady also has Improved Mettle. Lady’s Grace (Ex): The Lady adds her Charisma modifier as a bonus on her saves and her initiative rolls. The Lady has Improved Evasion. Those attempting to attack the Lady by any means magical or mundane suffer a 70% miss chance. Lady’s Insight (Ex): The Lady adds her Wisdom modifier to all her attack and damage rolls. Lady’s Purity (Ex): Those who profane the Lady by striking her person in melee suffer 10d8 points of slashing damage. Those who stand within 10ft. of the Lady suffer 5d8 points of slashing damage. Lady’s Sanctity (Ex): The Lady is surrounded by an aura 300 feet in radius. Those within the aura who fail a Will save are affected as if by forbidden speech. The topic they cannot discuss is the Lady Herself. Maze (Ex): As a free action, the Lady may banish a creature to an interdimensional maze. There is no save allowed, but the creature is entitled to a DC 80 Int check to escape immediately. Every failure results in the creature being lost for 5d% years, after which he can attempt another Int check with a +1 cumulative bonus to escape. Regeneration (Ex): It is unknown if any type of damage deals lethal damage to the Lady. Spectral Slash (Ex): The Lady’s natural weapons overcome damage reduction and regeneration of all types. Impenetrable damage reduction only reduces damage from the spectral slash one half of its usual amount. This attack can strike incorporeal creatures with no miss chance. Spell-like Abilities: At will-blade barrier, gate, greater teleport, harm Caster level 80th; DC 32+spell level. The Lady’s spell-like abilities are considered quickened, and she can use them up to 3 times a round as an immediate action. Summon Dabaus (Sp): At will as a free action, the Lady can summon 10d10 dabaus. But your party won't beat her. Giving her stats isn't to allow your party to beat her, it is to give her a relative power and show what she can do.
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-03-07, 09:26 AM	I like Witch's stats somewhat. My own stats include a few notes: HP: Something mind-boggling Attack: Yes Damage: Death by flaying Saves: Higher than anything you can launch at her.
FrostHammer 03-03-07, 01:04 PM	Oh this is all part of an...Epic (if somewhat silly) storyline. The PCs are level 1 right now, but they'll eventually go down into the nine hells, take out Asmodeus, use the legions of hell and conquer the home planes of all the non-good deities, and kill off or subjugate most of everything outside of the material plane. There is a (false) prophesy about the destruction of the mateiral plane by something powerful from the outside, and the PCs are kinda loony.
Khael 03-03-07, 04:06 PM	... They realise they can't really rule hell right? Because they'll need to bind to the layer to truly rule it, the devils won't kotow to them, and gods will own them. It would take a badly-played demi-god/lesser god by D&D rules to lose to level 40s, major? Give up, they win - instant death. But I get your idea, I just think it'll have to be played as thought the least effective DM in the world were running the monsters (I.E. Nothing knows they have spells/slas/effects. They just charge, except for the fighters monsters who try to hide.) And they never hear of Cthulhu?
JulesCARV 03-03-07, 04:18 PM	In other news, the Force of Gravity has 8437 hit points, and a CR of 70. Brownian motion, on the other hand, has only 4982 hit points, and a CR of only 45. I'm not sure about Inertia. I can't quite recall what its stats are.
Witch 03-03-07, 04:47 PM	Laws of Nature =/= Cosmic Forces. You might not be able to defeat the idea behind the Lady, but you can defeat her physical manifestation.
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-03-07, 05:42 PM	In other news, the Force of Gravity has 8437 hit points, and a CR of 70. Brownian motion, on the other hand, has only 4982 hit points, and a CR of only 45. I'm not sure about Inertia. I can't quite recall what its stats are. I believe it was somewhere around 6338 hp, and a CR in the 50s. I fondly recall the stats of electromagnetism: 5719 hp, and a CR of 49.
sciborg2 03-03-07, 05:57 PM	Didn't Darkwind mean those stats as a joke? They might prove useful nonetheless I suppose....
Witch 03-03-07, 06:00 PM	Didn't Darkwind mean those stats as a joke? They might prove useful nonetheless I suppose.... Not that I'm aware of. They originate from his/her Alternate Cosmic Entities thread. Those entities are far weaker than official DF material and iirc, the Lady stands quite high above all the others in terms of power & CR.
primemover003 03-03-07, 06:51 PM	Laws of Nature =/= Cosmic Forces. You might not be able to defeat the idea behind the Lady, but you can defeat her physical manifestation. No I don't think you should... not ever. The only way the Lady should ever go away as it were is if she ended herself.
crimsonwolf 03-03-07, 07:09 PM	actully we did something simalar to the legend of the monkey king in DnD terms and everyone was demigods. so they actully had gained ranks of power and did stats doing quests to gain worshipers... total fun it lasted for about 2 and half years until one of the players died r/l :( we coulndt keep going after that got to depressed
Alpha_Moose 03-03-07, 07:26 PM	Oh this is all part of an...Epic (if somewhat silly) storyline. The PCs are level 1 right now, but they'll eventually go down into the nine hells, take out Asmodeus, use the legions of hell and conquer the home planes of all the non-good deities, and kill off or subjugate most of everything outside of the material plane. There is a (false) prophesy about the destruction of the mateiral plane by something powerful from the outside, and the PCs are kinda loony. If it's stupidly powerful epic characters I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to challenge the Lady. Some people make her too omnipotent than she actually is, and others hate stating the gods as well. If your characters fight gods, they can fight her.
The Serge7 03-03-07, 07:35 PM	Not that I'm aware of. They originate from his/her Alternate Cosmic Entities thread. Those entities are far weaker than official DF material and iirc, the Lady stands quite high above all the others in terms of power & CR. Well, Kain Darkwind's attitude with the Lady has historically been that she shouldn't be statted, but -- like the stats that Phaedros (I think) did some time ago -- it's both a joke and an option for people who just have to use stats for her. I personally don't care either way... A prohibition of stats for The Lady is similar in concept to prohobitions against stats for gods and the more powerful planar lords. That said, I do not advocate certified Dicefreaks stats and there will never be certified stats for her. It would create more needless controversy that it's worth... Not to mention ruin the nebulous nature of Her Serenity (and ruin some... plans some of us have regarding her and Sigil).
Bob the Efreet 03-04-07, 01:10 AM	I'd just have her refuse to appear before them. Unless they did one of the three things that call down her wrath. Then she shows up and the PCs die. But I'd have a similar thing happen if they waltzed into Abysm and went hunting for Demogorgon. Except they'd die slower to Demogorgon.
FrostHammer 03-04-07, 01:57 AM	Anything is beatable. If MMOs and other rpgs have taught us anything, it's just that you need to grind enough :D In any case, if the DM wants the Lady of Pain to be beatable (even if uhh...a Pain in the behind the beat), then beatable she is. Nothing is invincible. Remember this rule: There is always someone stronger. Epic means just that...epic. You are beyond normal heroics. You do stuff that bards don't even imagine to sing.
CantripN 03-04-07, 03:13 AM	Perhaps. But to some (like me), the Lady is not a God or a higher power. She's a cosmic manifestation of an idea, and thus beyond any D&D god, seeing as even AO can't interfere with her, and his Overlord is (probably) her master/equal. It's a mystery, and it should stay as such, but feel free to ruin cosmic forces... It's a mystery so each DM can make what he wants of it.
MareltEkiran 03-04-07, 03:26 AM	You could give her a power similar to the nature of the city of Sigil itself... the Power to nullify all other powers. No spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities or extraordinary abilities work in her presence. Any effect that enters a certain radius away from her instantly fizzles out of existance (ruining any magic that could be employed against her). Furthermore, she has total omniscience within a certain radius (completely and utterly ruins any attempt at deception, stealth of striking her when she's vulnerable). Finally, she cannot be harmed by mere material objects, such as non-magical weapons (like a permanized ghostform). And given that all powers (including the magic of weapons) fizzle in her presence without anything to be done against it, that ruins any high-damage melee build. Not even Pun-Pun can beat this set-up, because no matter how many powers he grants himself, the Lady of Pain simply nullifies all of them when they enter her reach.
Witch 03-04-07, 03:28 AM	She's a cosmic manifestation of an idea So's Asmodeus, and even WotC stats him. A prohibition of stats for The Lady is similar in concept to prohobitions against stats for gods and the more powerful planar lords. I agree, really. I don't see a reason for not making stats for her if you do for gods and cosmics. As for mystery, well, to be fair, mystery shouldn't always prevent that. You can retain her mysterious flavor and nonetheless stat her.
Kojiro James 03-04-07, 03:46 AM	I hate it when people reply in that phantom time of reading the thread and posting your own reply. Put's things so far out of context. Perhaps. But to some (like me), the Lady is not a God or a higher power. She's a cosmic manifestation of an idea, and thus beyond any D&D god, seeing as even AO can't interfere with her, and his Overlord is (probably) her master/equal. It's a mystery, and it should stay as such, but feel free to ruin cosmic forces... It's a mystery so each DM can make what he wants of it. His Overlord was the DM. Of course they're equals.
ripvanwormer 03-04-07, 04:20 AM	The Lady of Pain shouldn't be officially statted because that takes away from what I think is the most interesting aspect of the character: her mysterious and unknowable nature. If WotC were to claim she's definitely an 80 hit die leShay, a risen obyrith, an immortal human sorceress, three nonmagical giant squirrels in a dress and mask, an illusion created by the dabus, the daughter of Poseidon, the reified concept of torment, Yog-Sothoth, the living soul of the City of Doors, or any of the other things it's been suggested she is, it would kill a lot of the fun of speculation. If she had official stats, I wouldn't like her at all. She'd just be an annoying deus ex machina rather than a fascinating enigma. The best thing about her is that she might not exist at all; she might be a hoax perpetuated by one power or another. While it's true she could remain somewhat mysterious even statted, she could not remain sufficiently mysterious. The worst, most mindless argument I've heard is that WotC is somehow required to stat her for the sake of consistency; if gods have stats, everything must have stats. I have little patience with thoughtless appeals to consistency, but it doesn't apply here in any case. Suffice to say that the Lady of Pain is not necessarily a god, nor is she necessarily an overdeity, a personified thought, nor anything else. That said, I have no problem with unofficial stats for the Lady of Pain. Statting her at an unofficial level is no different from any other form of speculation, and should be encouraged. I like the stat block Kain came up with.
AngelofCthulhu 03-04-07, 08:20 AM	And they never hear of Cthulhu? You rang? The LoP is, simply put, some extreme and totally alien entity that no one messes with as long as they are in the Cage. If I had to say though, I would say she was from the Far Realm. (It is the best excuse ever, the Far Realm can compensate for any error or bit of confusion)
Millennium 03-04-07, 08:55 AM	Advance a hecatonchieres as high as it will go, remove the limitation on the number of attacks it can make in a round due to the target's size, triple everything numeric, then add a Divine Rank of 21 and adjust accordingly.
Upper_Krust 03-04-07, 09:19 AM	Hey there FrostHammer! :) I'm just curious as to how you'd stat out the Lady of Pain, just in case your party needed to fight her (for control of Sigil or something) I'm torn between my gut instinct of her being a greater power (where Concordant/Sigil is her home plane), or something slightly more powerful than a greater power (an Elder One). I don't know as much about her as many of the Planescape boffins herein and I kind of doubt they would be too helpful in my pursuit of her stats. ;) So I would probably just go with a really powerful Greater Goddess, which would work out at roughly CR 133 (under my auspices). Or an Elder Goddess (about CR 186). ...might make an interesting web article. :P I like Kain's stats for her, although they are indicative of what I would consider a (relatively) weak greater power. Although I am sure they seem strong for anyone using the Deities & Demigods stats.
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 11:59 AM	The Lady isn't all powerful, in my view. She just follows certain incomprehensible laws of cause and effect. In some ways, she's weaker than a typical human: she cannot leave Sigil. She cannot act outside of her own laws of causation within Sigil. If someone worships her, I don't think she can say, "y'know, this particular guy isn't too disruptive, and isn't making any trouble. I think I'll let him live." No, she has to flay him, because of the laws by which she is bound. I don't think she's all-powerful. I think of her as an anthropomorphism of a weird set of causes and effects that apply within Sigil.
Evil DM Mk3 03-04-07, 12:30 PM	At least 8 higher than twice the value needed for the most devistating result.
Alpha_Moose 03-04-07, 02:15 PM	The Lady of Pain shouldn't be officially statted because...to save space... came up with. She reminds me of Tom Bombadil. I can understand in many ways why people don't want the creator to say "she's definitely this," because it ruins your own thoughts about her. I can also understand the insane need to stat everything that exists, because I'm like that.
Urithair 03-04-07, 02:36 PM	She's only unbeatable when She is in Sigil =)
The Serge7 03-04-07, 03:04 PM	I like Kain's stats for her, although they are indicative of what I would consider a (relatively) weak greater power. Although I am sure they seem strong for anyone using the Deities & Demigods stats. Hello, Upper Krust! Bear in mind that Kain Darkwind's stats for The Lady of Pain, even though jokes, are designed to fit within the overall framework of his other "alternatives" to DF material. In other words, given that his various planar lords are significantly weaker than their certified DF counterparts (compare his Asmodeus to the Asmodeus of The Gates of Hell), it's probable that any attempt on Kain Darkwind's part to create a certified DF Lady would result in a Lady upwards of... Well, she'd be stronger than Ao... Or else, he'd say that she wouldn't be worth statting at all.
FrostHammer 03-04-07, 05:15 PM	Hey there FrostHammer! :) I'm torn between my gut instinct of her being a greater power (where Concordant/Sigil is her home plane), or something slightly more powerful than a greater power (an Elder One). I don't know as much about her as many of the Planescape boffins herein and I kind of doubt they would be too helpful in my pursuit of her stats. ;) So I would probably just go with a really powerful Greater Goddess, which would work out at roughly CR 133 (under my auspices). Or an Elder Goddess (about CR 186). ...might make an interesting web article. :P I like Kain's stats for her, although they are indicative of what I would consider a (relatively) weak greater power. Although I am sure they seem strong for anyone using the Deities & Demigods stats. Hmm...a bit high...I'm hoping for some example stats that a group of sup-70 adventurers can beat. In this world, most gods are CR 30s and mid-40s, and I'm not even sure how well the LoP can fare if she faces a god outside of Sigil. The players would probably need some way to separate the LoP from Sigil, trap her somewher else, and then fight her.
Witch 03-04-07, 05:34 PM	Edit: I wish there was a delete post button.
sciborg2 03-05-07, 03:36 AM	I have pretty much every PS book, if someone wants to stat her for their campaign and needs info I'd be happy to try and give some but my memories faded somewhat...as Rip said, what a lot of us PS fans don't want are official stats for the lady.
Bob the Efreet 03-05-07, 04:02 AM	The Lady probably has stats comparable to those of Invisible Christopher Walken (http://youtube.com/watch?v=WIbhB4ObuDQ). Seriously, though, the thing to recall about the Lady of Pain is that She was conceptualised entirely within the Planescape setting, and was designed with certain assumptions from that setting in mind. So people come along, see stuff about this mysterious "lady" who rules Sigil, and think about how can I beat her, what if I want to take over Sigil, what are her stats? I think if people approached Her within the framework and understanding of how Planescape views the multiverse, there would be much less confusion.
FrostHammer 03-05-07, 04:49 AM	I have pretty much every PS book, if someone wants to stat her for their campaign and needs info I'd be happy to try and give some but my memories faded somewhat...as Rip said, what a lot of us PS fans don't want are official stats for the lady. It wouldn't be official. It'd be your imagination of what she might be like, which will then be modified to the power level of the DM's choosing to fit within the DM's version of the multi-verse.
Upper_Krust 03-05-07, 07:34 AM	Hi Frosthammer! :) Hmm...a bit high...I'm hoping for some example stats that a group of sup-70 adventurers can beat. In this world, most gods are CR 30s and mid-40s, and I'm not even sure how well the LoP can fare if she faces a god outside of Sigil. The players would probably need some way to separate the LoP from Sigil, trap her somewher else, and then fight her. Well the beauty of my system is that you can create (half CR) Avatars and (1/4 CR) Aspects using fairly simple formulae. So if we made the Lady of Pain CR 133, then her Avatar would be CR 66 and her Aspect would be CR 33. You could also assume that perhaps when she leaves Sigil she has to take Avatar form, or when she visits a Prime Material World she has to take Aspect form...?
Donraj 03-05-07, 09:42 AM	I think a lot of this visceral reaction against statting out the Lady or using her as an enemy for the PCs to eventually slug it out with takes away from the whole point of leaving her undefined to begin with. The Lady as a low epic being that happens to have some very cool equipment and tricks should be as valid an intepretation as her being an overpower who could pimp-slap Asmodeus, Demogorgon and Io into the Far Realms as a free action. I have no desire to ever see her officially defined, but there's nothing about her character that requires her to be utterly beyond reach in any particular campaign.
sciborg2 03-05-07, 03:19 PM	so what y'all wanna know anyway?
FrostHammer 03-05-07, 05:14 PM	I want her (unofficially) statted out so she can engage in combat following the rules of DnD.
Ohtar Turinson 03-06-07, 12:18 AM	I want her (unofficially) statted out so she can engage in combat following the rules of DnD. Alright.... so what is She in your game? That makes a big difference... make a decision on her nature and the rest is just some choices and mucking with numbers.
MythMage 03-06-07, 12:33 AM	Personally, I prefer Phaedros's stats. These stats put Her appropriately above all other creatures in the DF cosmos to fit the assumption that She is (or is nearly) the very strongest thing around. However, as Serge said, they'll never actually endorse a specific stat set as truly representing Her Serenity - nor will they even confirm that She is indeed the (or nearly the) strongest thing around. http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=385&start=0
FrostHammer 03-06-07, 12:41 AM	Hmm, the Lady herself an epic NPC with unimaginable amount of wealth (ruling a city can get you that). In this world, I pciture her as drawing power from Sigil itself to boost her own powers. As long as she remains within Sigil, her stats are incredible and ridiculous, like some people have written. However, if she is cut off from the source of her power somehow, then she is no match for Greater Gods such as Correlon Larethian or Yondalla, but she has enough tricks up her sleeve to survive against intermediate deities. She is not omnipotent, but through the use of a wide variety of persistent magiks and Permancied spells, and a huge network of informants working for her, she keeps herself very well-informed about what goes on inside Sigil and out. She is a very good multi-tasker obviously.
Kain Darkwind 03-06-07, 01:12 AM	I hadn't realized my stats migrated onto these boards. Allow me to clarify a few things. 1. My stats for Lady of Pain aren't exactly a joke...they are meant to interact with the rest of my cosmic entities/gods, located elsewhere on the thread. 2. My personal take on the Lady of Pain is that she is the embodiment of Sigil, and sort of a sentient defense mechanism for the City. A powerful defense mechanism, which can kill even greater gods. Those stats realize that personal take on her. 3. My official take on the Lady of Pain is identical to that of Ripvanwormer's, that she shouldn't have official stats because it kills the variety of ideas that spring up in the absence of stats. Shemeska and myself should both be able to play the Lady as we want her without concerning ourself about conflicting with canon. And if Frosthammer wants to be able to kill the Lady and take her stuff, that should be able to happen in his/her game. I don't agree with it, and it wouldn't happen in my game. And that's fine too. Without official stats, FH can make up a CR 30 Lady of Pain for his PCs to kill. I can have my CR 80 version that PCs will never kill. And Shemeska can have her non-statted/non-rolled deus ex deathina.
FrostHammer 03-06-07, 02:04 AM	Without official stats, FH can make up a CR 30 Lady of Pain for his PCs to kill. I can have my CR 80 version that PCs will never kill. And Shemeska can have her non-statted/non-rolled deus ex deathina. I thought that was pretty obvious fairly early on. The fact that some people needed you to clarify those things just baffles me. It's like they think my own game world affects theirs or something.
Kain Darkwind 03-06-07, 02:27 AM	Well, probably the bigger 'concern' is when you come back talking about how your character slaughtered Her Ladyship. It is irksome to try to hold a conversation about say, Tiamat, and have someone butt in about how their hulking hurler threw a moon sized chunk of adamantine at her and killed her in one hit. Now, I don't suspect you would do something like that. But experience has shown that very situation. Does your game affect anyone elses? No. Does it affect official D&D canon? No. We (and I suspect nearly everyone on this thread) know that, and it's cool. It is when the potential Lady-killer doesn't realize that fact that it becomes a tedious bout of munchkin deflating. It is when the person who kills Tiamat and takes her stuff starts bragging that these stats are too weak, and such and so forth, that people feel compelled to scream "No Stats EVER!" for the Lady. Regardless of the situation. And you can't escape that, it is probably almost 20 some years in the making. Now, if you think the Lady is CR 30, obviously I disagree with you. But if you want such statistics, I would suggest cutting my Lady of Pain stats (reposted by Witch) down a little. Her special attack damage should be divided by 3, and her ability scores should probably be dropped to the mid-30s. Drop her HD to about 40. This should give you a CR 30ish Lady of Pain. It'll definitely give your PCs something to scrap with. The reason I don't think the LoP is CR 30 is because she killed a greater god. If you look at the gods' stats in DdG or F&P, you will see that even a demigod would stomp all over a CR 30. Except for Mask, he runs away from a CR 21. If you planned on keeping the Lady consistent with existing lore AND running a CR 30 fight, I would either introduce something that weakened the Lady prior to the fight (like yanking her out of Sigil, or blasting her with some epic major artifact) so that you could explain why they were capable of beating her.
Khael 03-06-07, 08:13 AM	But saying that look at one of the previous posts: FH nerfed ALL his gods anyway it seems. And... you nerfed your gods... Why can't you use the standard stuff to make a LoP then and just count it as 'invulnerable within Sigil'? Alter reality - you get maze, and I know theres a flaying spell somewhere in a 3.5/3.0 book... And yes, Kain Darkwind has my objection in part: I loathe it when people tell me they beat god X. I always want to tell them, 'No, your DM nerfed the hell out of it, not just so you could stand a chance against it, but so you could survive.' And that was with a good guy on these boards, about a low-grade goddess. Think about what my feeling would be about some twerp and Asmodeus/The Lady/any other similarly ranked being. Heck, I'll freak out at someone, if they declared they're allowed to be a god for doing something they'll get one try on a d20, in several levels time. So no, you're DM'ing won't affect my game-world. It might seriously pee me off in the real world though, if I have the 'chance' to read about it.
spectralphoenix 03-06-07, 09:13 AM	I agree that the CR 30 Lady should be a weakened version (well, in this context anyway. I'm in the "unstatted" camp.) If she was that power level all the time, someone in the multiverse would have taken her out by now. Even if the gods are weaker, presumably the PCs are going to be fighting some epic monsters/NPCs to face a decent challenge at epic levels (I'm guessing it's not all gods, all the time.) And most of the more powerful residents of Sigil are generally statted in epic levels.
Witch 03-06-07, 09:30 AM	Just out of interest, Frosthammer - why are your PCs aiming to kill the Lady? I concur with Kain that the main reason people oppose stats for deities and more powerful creatures because there's always people who just aim to kill such a powerful being - and then brag about it.
spectralphoenix 03-06-07, 09:41 AM	Well, probably the bigger 'concern' is when you come back talking about how your character slaughtered Her Ladyship. It is irksome to try to hold a conversation about say, Tiamat, and have someone butt in about how their hulking hurler threw a moon sized chunk of adamantine at her and killed her in one hit. In other news, the Force of Gravity has 8437 hit points, and a CR of 70. Brownian motion, on the other hand, has only 4982 hit points, and a CR of only 45. I'm not sure about Inertia. I can't quite recall what its stats are. Did I ever tell you how my awesome rogue/fighter totally wasted Brownian Motion... Anyway, FH, how common are epic NPCs/monsters in your campaign? There'd have to be a fair number of epic challenges for the PCs to keep levelling, but if the gods are CR 30 or so I think there'd be a fairly high turnover rate if epic characters and monsters were common.
Issabella 03-06-07, 10:36 AM	I'm just curious as to how you'd stat out the Lady of Pain, just in case your party needed to fight her (for control of Sigil or something) I always picture the battle with Her Serenity going something like the first ghost busters movies. LoP: "Are you a God?" Party/Ray: "Umm no" LoP: "Then Die (flay in her case)
MythMage 03-06-07, 11:18 AM	Personally, I think of the Lady of Pain as a nigh-omnipotent overdeity. Though I also have a few other theories about Her, including one building on my work with the Plane of Faerie... I think that it is possible to do "official" stats in a way that wouldn't destroy Her mystique: simply provide a number of contradictory versions of Her with stats (I've got a list of 10+ versions coherent enough to give stats for), specifically state that none of them is certain to be accurate, and also specifically outline possibilities which do not even permit stats, such as Her being literally or virtually omnipotent.
FrostHammer 03-06-07, 12:22 PM	I was more thinking of her to be mid to high 30s in CR, but yes, I agree while inside Sigil her CR should be in the hundreds. Major artifact would have to blast her out of Sigil first and then she'd have to dimension anchored or something before anyone would have a chance.
sciborg2 03-06-07, 02:56 PM	I think part of it is how do you challenge even a god who has a CR of 50 or 60? Given enough time I can't help but believe that even an archmage would become unassailable if they lived inside their city since anyone in the Multiverse can remember or is willing to talk about. The number of contigencies, wards, and even backroom protection deals must be staggering.
DragonLich 03-06-07, 06:03 PM	Well she has to be hardcore powerful. Something that blows the mind away, both literally and in thought. Thus I totally agree with the idea of an NPC that is just too powerful, one that has no need to be stated. I also agree with Darkwind's build of her. Seems powerful ;) So in the end...She's what you make her. In this case make her higher then Asmodeus yet not as high as a creature of your own creation. For the Lady needed to get as high as she is by killing others that were just as high as her. It means she went campaigning and thus now has to fight the BBEG so make your own there. Something cool and of your own...like...a fully stated Oak Tree of Seven Dwarves!
sicsemperjohn 03-06-07, 09:23 PM	I personally run a lady without stats, because that makes the most sense to me; and though I do prefer to argue for her statlessness and openness and everything, conversations like this take on a "my-dad-can-beat-up-your-dad" kind of feel sometimes.
freeholder 03-06-07, 09:48 PM	Nuclear war on Earth may destroy all evidence she ever existed. Pun-pun however would survive along with other creatures of divine power.
Harkle 03-07-07, 03:06 AM	Well stats for differant materials exist, so you could theoretically figure out what it would take to detroy Sigil. Keep The Lady unstated and unstatable, but make here stop existing if Sigil stops existing, meaning if you can disintigrate all of Sigil in the time it takes to complete a free action (no way LoP would let you get away with any more than that) you can defeat her. And that is me being very nice and trying to work with you on this.
slimgoodbody 03-07-07, 05:04 AM	I'm of the mind that statting her is pretty much pooping on the intent behind what she is, but there are definitely ways to use stats for her while keeping the mystery. A neat idea would be to have the PCs be off of Sigil in some Prime Material world or a nether-dimension or something, and due to some prophecy/magical fluke/artifact/whatever plot device suits your game, the Lady of Pain shows up. Only it's not quite the LoP. Think of it more like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters. The only reason she appeared is because the magic involved forced a tangible version of her to exist somewhere, and the only reason she's so powerful is because the PCs know or fear or expect her to be mind-bogglingly, pants-messingly powerful. Thus, it's not actually the real her, but it is her so to speak. Actually, that would be a really cool backstory for a game... Think if a group of overly proud adventurers managed to accidentally conjure such a creature, and it of course slaughtered them wholesale, and then realized it existed, and was coherent, and could choose its actions... What would it do? What if it went to Sigil, with the condition that, since she isn't a god, she could enter, but upon entering, was entitled to all the scope and ability granted the true LoP? Except the time spent outside in the universe has given the fake one an agenda of some kind. That might be enough for the LoP to actually grant favor to one person who worshipped her, like how Elminster is the Chosen of Mystra. For fun, what would the one sole Chosen of Her Serenity in all of recorded eternity be granted?
robertliguori 03-07-07, 07:29 AM	Anything is beatable. If MMOs and other rpgs have taught us anything, it's just that you need to grind enough :D In any case, if the DM wants the Lady of Pain to be beatable (even if uhh...a Pain in the behind the beat), then beatable she is. Nothing is invincible. Remember this rule: There is always someone stronger. The Lady of Pain is N+1. She is the someone stronger. Look, how high-level do you have to be to sunder a wall of force with pure damage? You can't; walls of force are defined to be flatly immune to pure physical damage. You can circumvent them in certain creative ways, or maybe even take a Sunder Force Effect epic feat or some such, but not even an infinite amount of damage will destroy a wall of force. The Lady is like that. Asking how to beat her is a meaningless question; if she is able to be beaten, she isn't the Lady.
Master_Baerne 03-07-07, 09:20 AM	Anybody stupid enough to make an attempt on the life of something that nullifies the magic of deities deserves the full wrath of the Lady. Observe: Let their skin boil, their eyes burn, their entrails combust, their bones splinter, and their brain steam. Let Her Serenity incinerate their souls, let Her doom them to an eternity in the torment of the Fugue Plane. Creepy, huh?
Kain Darkwind 03-07-07, 10:43 AM	The Lady of Pain is N+1. She is the someone stronger. Look, how high-level do you have to be to sunder a wall of force with pure damage? You can't; walls of force are defined to be flatly immune to pure physical damage. You can circumvent them in certain creative ways, or maybe even take a Sunder Force Effect epic feat or some such, but not even an infinite amount of damage will destroy a wall of force. The Lady is like that. Asking how to beat her is a meaningless question; if she is able to be beaten, she isn't the Lady. *That* position is just as unsupported as the squirrel theory, even if it does happen to hold more popularity. Saying you can't stat the law of gravity in response to a question about the LoP is likewise a flip and unsupported position. There is absolutely nothing that says the Lady of Pain is the end all be all of power in the Multiverse. Even if she is.
FrostHammer 03-07-07, 02:12 PM	Besides, I want her to be CR 35-ish.
sciborg2 03-07-07, 02:21 PM	If she's CR 35, I'm curious if there is a logical consistency to why she hasn't been killed by someone earlier...
Gemstone 03-07-07, 02:34 PM	In my gameworld (when I use THAT cosmology), the lady of pain is a sorceress of insane arcane might, who has basicly discovered how to... acess a higher level of power that is different from divine power (DvR). To fully understand that, I would need to tell you about 7 years of backstory, which would take to much time... Needless, I would probably stat her with divine rank 20 (monotheistic deity in her own plane) with about 40 HD of outsider, and some 40 levels or sorceror or cleric. Probably sorceror.
FrostHammer 03-07-07, 02:53 PM	If she's CR 35, I'm curious if there is a logical consistency to why she hasn't been killed by someone earlier... Because she draws power from Sigil itself. While in Sigil, she's the equivalent of CR 300 or so in my world.
AngelofCthulhu 03-07-07, 03:13 PM	You know Greater Deities are like CR 500 or something. Those dudes can deal incredible punishment. And if they don't want to tangle with the LoP on her turf. She is just nasty.
spectralphoenix 03-07-07, 04:40 PM	Entities with certain salient abilites don't really fit into the classic CR system - if a god with Life and Death decides a character dies, he dies. It doesn't matter how many hit dice he has or what his saving throw is.
FrostHammer 03-07-07, 04:48 PM	In my world, Greater Deities are like CR 50 to 60 at most. Everything else is pretty much less powerful than that. That's the scale I'm going off of.
Amon_WinterfallIV 03-07-07, 10:37 PM	I don't like the idea of the Lady of Pain in the first place. Some leader that can own a greater deity is interesting, but also comsology breaking--Something very wrong is afoot if a planar leader is of a power level sufficient to kill a god (Gods may overlap somewhat with planar leaders, but they should be more powerful at the top echelons.) Redone to my cosmology, the Lady of Pain figure is not sufficient to kill a greater deity (and greater Deities are CRs in the 60-70s IMC) Instead, since the Lady of Pain is a planar leader, she's probably about CR 32 (Figure that Asmodeus IMC is about CR 37). The Lady of Pain-might be able to beat a god, but only a demigod (or maybe) a lesser diety. I'd probably change the history to fit my cosmos where a lesser deity was flayed by the Lady of Pain---interesting but believable.
ripvanwormer 03-07-07, 10:46 PM	(Gods may overlap somewhat with planar leaders, but they should be more powerful at the top echelons. You've got it backwards. Planar leaders should always be able to own greater deities, or your cosmology is broken - horribly, ridiculously broken. A greater deity is nothing compared to the infinite planes.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 11:09 PM	I don't like the idea of the Lady of Pain in the first place. Some leader that can own a greater deity is interesting, but also comsology breaking--Something very wrong is afoot if a planar leader is of a power level sufficient to kill a god (Gods may overlap somewhat with planar leaders, but they should be more powerful at the top echelons.) It's not necessarily certain that the Lady of Pain is a planar power in the first place. Her exact nature is pretty much a blank spot. But also, mirroring what Rip said, it stands to reason that beings who personify infinities, personify primordial concepts of reality, being who in some cases predate the existance of both mortals and gods, should be capable of standing on a level distinct from and where appropriate, more powerful than a being of personified mortal worship like a deity. Given the nature and history of the planes in D&D, anything else would be a mockery of the cosmology.
Amon_WinterfallIV 03-08-07, 12:18 AM	Well, I guess I need to admit that I do have a broken cosmology:weep: I certainly don't mean to offend anyone (I might have, I don't know) Seriously though, while I agree that a leader of an Infinite Plane is clearly going to outmatch a greater deity, I entirely fail to understand how the planes are infinite to start with. (Having taken Calculus, I understand very well why an Infinite value defeats a finite value) I just fail to understand how a Cosmology can even function with infinite distances, infinite numbers and infinite power available. At a minimum, Physics is dead (Magic made things interesting, but now basic elements such as gravity and relativity just flew out the window). Furthermore, I don't think Infinity works; It would just result in any outsider who can be pegged from the top (a part of the bigger picture) as having Pun-Pun's 'I Win' ex ability. If the Planes were Infinite: Asmodeus Controls an Infinite Territory, therefore he has infinite power and has infinite resources. Infinite CR--he can not die. Bel Controls a lesser infinity of territory; while he has infinite power and has infinite resources, through Calculus we can determine that he has only 1/9th of Asmodeus' power. He still has Infinite CR, just that we can ascertain he is weaker than Asmodeus as he is a lower limit. Ky'ral, One of the most minute sub-administrators of Bel controls only 1/1,000,000,000,000th of Avernus. He still has infinite resources and an Infinite CR, just that he is a lower limit than Bel. I deduce, then, that Ky'ral can sneeze and kill a Greater Deity, as a Greater Diety is finite. Ky'ral can also sneeze and blow up an 'Planet' or orb as well, one-shotting whatever overdeity is in control of it in the same strike. He has no motive to do so, because the conquest of a world the size of Earth would not meaningfully increase his desmene (1 Trillionth of Infinity remains Infinity). Perhaps his ideology motivates him to act, but then he succeeds at using epic spell "World Goes Boom, No Save" as a free action This is getting silly. Either you'd own an infinite amount of territory or you'd own functionally zero territory. Pun-Pun, being only NI instead of truly infinite, would actually be killed rather handedly, as he would simply recieve infinite damage without a saving throw, his 'I win' power simply outmatched. This would result in outsiders simply waving their fingers and doing whatever they wanted at the speed of light (or that might be dead as well. If not, then at least outsiders will never interact with a prime, as it would require infinite energy to get there.) No. While I can understand how the ruler of an infinite plane can clearly take any finite creature and win instantly, I fail to understand how the presence of such creatures really helps a campaign setting. Ky'ral is always going to win, unless some other Infinite creature stops him. Meanwhile, D&D is clearly about very finite characters, who stand no chance of thwarting an infinite creature's agenda. So, then, there's no hope for stopping Ky'ral, as the PCs. With Infinite resources, the PCs can only decide to accept Ky'ral's plans or commit suicide. And that's assuming Ky'ral hasn't already decided to enslave their souls. This can't be right. How can the PCs be meaningful in a campaign where any outsider related to the top in any way automatically wins? :help: I suppose that it would mean never dealing with anyone with any position in any plane, or only those with finite positions. BTW, if this is correct, the LoP is clearly infinite, so stating her out is going to involve calculus and a comparision to other infinite entities. For what it matters, she automatically wins.
Kain Darkwind 03-08-07, 12:35 AM	-Something very wrong is afoot if a planar leader is of a power level sufficient to kill a god (Gods may overlap somewhat with planar leaders, but they should be more powerful at the top echelons.) I'm not sure where you reach this conclusion. Like Rip and Shem said...a plane is much larger and grander than a deity's realm. And there are many greater gods of a particular alignment or that live on a particular plane, but only one planar ruler. By all reasonable methods of evaluation, the planar rulers should be at the very least on par with the greater gods, at the most more powerful. Otherwise the planar rulers are at best, puppets that rule only through the gods' consent.
JoAT 03-08-07, 01:48 AM	*That* position is just as unsupported as the squirrel theory, even if it does happen to hold more popularity. Saying you can't stat the law of gravity in response to a question about the LoP is likewise a flip and unsupported position. There is absolutely nothing that says the Lady of Pain is the end all be all of power in the Multiverse. Even if she is. I'd just like to take a moment to quote this for great truth. The fact of the matter is, the Lady of Pain is not the big bad infinitely powerful being of the planes. She is the mystery of the universe, and doesn't function as a leader, but as a plot device to reinforce the mood and mystery of Planescape. If, in your Planescape game, the characters are looking to beat her up in a all out brawl, something is wrong, because she doesn't work that way - not that she can't, if you want her to, but that would be a poor use of her, as a plot device (much like a murder mystery centered around the Tarrasque), and, more importantly, it means that she is not doing her job. The reason she should not be stated is not because she's ultra powerful, but because the real sense of accomplishment, when dealing directly with her, is figuring out what she is. If I were running a Planescape game, and it appeared that the players were headed this way, I would let them take Her out of the picture, the sooner the better. What could be more interesting that a group of 5th level characters who became heir to all of Her supposed power? Trying to maintain their new power and station, perhaps bound to the city and unable to leave it, having to attempt to 'rule' beings far more powerful than them, who all want their power, and the control of the city (and how did such weak beings manage to destroy a being that was rumored to be so powerful, anyways?)? Heck, if I wanted to reinforce the awe and mystery aspect, they could slowly learn the nature of the Cage, and learn who the Lady was... and from there, there's all sorts of points to jump off from, in the end, allowing the death of the Lady of Pain to do exactly what her existence was supposed to do.
sciborg2 03-08-07, 03:11 AM	Keep in mind that some DMs aren't running Planescape games but still want to use the Lady. I think it all depends on what a group is looking for. In fact, statting the Lady is really a matter of first deciding who she is -- there was once an awesome stat-up of her as a vestige, for example...
MythMage 03-08-07, 08:22 PM	Well, I guess I need to admit that I do have a broken cosmology:weep: I certainly don't mean to offend anyone (I might have, I don't know) Seriously though, while I agree that a leader of an Infinite Plane is clearly going to outmatch a greater deity, I entirely fail to understand how the planes are infinite to start with. (Having taken Calculus, I understand very well why an Infinite value defeats a finite value) The planes aren't so much infinite as they are limitless. You can pick a direction in Hell and walk that way and never come back to where you started. You can go beyond where anything lives, but that faraway space doesn't meaningfully exist nor is it inhabited when you leave again. It's just that distance and physical space mean less on planes made out of concepts and belief than they do in mundane places like the Material Plane. They are vastly larger than any one world, though, which is why their lords are generally as powerful or more powerful than gods.
Meshakhad 03-08-07, 09:08 PM	Stats: Lady of Pain Medium-size (I'm guessing) Outsider HD: infinited100 (infinite hp) Init: She goes first Speed: As fast as she wants AC: You miss Base Attack: She hits Grapple: She auto pins you Attack: (help here Shemeska?) +she hits (she kills you) SA: Omnipotent SQ: DR infinite/-, energy resistance infinite, SR infinite AL: Unknown Saves: She succeeds Abilities: All infinite Skills: Unknown Feats: Unknown
Amon_WinterfallIV 03-08-07, 10:46 PM	I'll try a different approach. We can't use constants to describe the LoP, but even if she does have infinite power, calculus does provide some meaningful stats. We'll can't use actual numbers here, but the variables provided might be usable to allow other run other infinite entities to fight. H= Hit Dice Co = Con score De = Dex Score St = Strength Score Wi = Wisdom Score In = Intelligence Score Ch = Charisma Score I = Other Init bonuses Q = Quality of Magic Items CR = Challenge Rating Lady of Pain Medium-size Outsider HD: Hd8 + H(Con/2-5) Init: I+ De/2 - 5 Speed: Capped at the speed of Light: 1,116,000 [Realitivity still holds], In addition, while the LoP can move at this rate, she is extremely unlikely to do, as this would result of planetary destruction. When she has any care for those around her, she voluntarily reduces her speed to 14,665, to minimize collatoral damage (this is still supersonic) AC: Non-Infinites hit her on a 20, otherwise, she has a combination of abilities that place her AC at roughly equal to De Base Attack: She misses only on a 1, and threatens a crit on 2-20. While the LoP probably an infinite attack bonus ( St/2 -5) + H/2 + Q, she probably does not have an infinite number of attacks (Mechanics speaking here). Her AC, to infinites, is probably equal to roughly 3xCR. A faster infinity than 3CR is going to always hit her. Grapple: She fails on a one, unless you have an touch AC higher than St/2 -5 + H/2 Attack: 1d8 + St/2 - 5 + Q /x8 2-20 @ + Hd/2 +St/2 - 5 SA: Sigil Mastery, Flay, Infinite traits. SQ: DR HD/Q-3, energy immunities, SR Cr + 20 AL: Always Neutral Aligned Saves: Fort: 2Hd/3 + Co, Ref: Hd/3 + De, Will: 2Hd/3 + Wi Abilities: Str: St, Dex: De, Con: Co, Int: In, Wis: Wi, Cha: Ch Skills: Her Int score is sufficient to learn all skills, so she is considered fully vested in all skills. She probably has not focused on some elements (such as handle animal, she is not likely to beat another infinite entity at this skill). Her skills will all be infinite, but some will be 3x the others. Feats: The LoP has all feats in a family that she desires, but no feat that she does not desire. For Example, she does not the 'Lichloved' feat from the BoVD. She is likely to have every feat of any positive value to her, but compared to other infinites, emphasis is key. Fighting Lop = Rocks Fall!
Bob the Efreet 03-09-07, 05:11 PM	This can't be right. It's not. You're overthinking the concepts of infinity.
Gemstone 03-09-07, 06:25 PM	Well, I guess I need to admit that I do have a broken cosmology:weep: I certainly don't mean to offend anyone (I might have, I don't know) Seriously though, while I agree that a leader of an Infinite Plane is clearly going to outmatch a greater deity, I entirely fail to understand how the planes are infinite to start with. (Having taken Calculus, I understand very well why an Infinite value defeats a finite value) I just fail to understand how a Cosmology can even function with infinite distances, infinite numbers and infinite power available. At a minimum, Physics is dead (Magic made things interesting, but now basic elements such as gravity and relativity just flew out the window). Furthermore, I don't think Infinity works; It would just result in any outsider who can be pegged from the top (a part of the bigger picture) as having Pun-Pun's 'I Win' ex ability. If the Planes were Infinite: Asmodeus Controls an Infinite Territory, therefore he has infinite power and has infinite resources. Infinite CR--he can not die. Bel Controls a lesser infinity of territory; while he has infinite power and has infinite resources, through Calculus we can determine that he has only 1/9th of Asmodeus' power. He still has Infinite CR, just that we can ascertain he is weaker than Asmodeus as he is a lower limit. Ky'ral, One of the most minute sub-administrators of Bel controls only 1/1,000,000,000,000th of Avernus. He still has infinite resources and an Infinite CR, just that he is a lower limit than Bel. I deduce, then, that Ky'ral can sneeze and kill a Greater Deity, as a Greater Diety is finite. Ky'ral can also sneeze and blow up an 'Planet' or orb as well, one-shotting whatever overdeity is in control of it in the same strike. He has no motive to do so, because the conquest of a world the size of Earth would not meaningfully increase his desmene (1 Trillionth of Infinity remains Infinity). Perhaps his ideology motivates him to act, but then he succeeds at using epic spell "World Goes Boom, No Save" as a free action This is getting silly. Either you'd own an infinite amount of territory or you'd own functionally zero territory. Pun-Pun, being only NI instead of truly infinite, would actually be killed rather handedly, as he would simply recieve infinite damage without a saving throw, his 'I win' power simply outmatched. This would result in outsiders simply waving their fingers and doing whatever they wanted at the speed of light (or that might be dead as well. If not, then at least outsiders will never interact with a prime, as it would require infinite energy to get there.) No. While I can understand how the ruler of an infinite plane can clearly take any finite creature and win instantly, I fail to understand how the presence of such creatures really helps a campaign setting. Ky'ral is always going to win, unless some other Infinite creature stops him. Meanwhile, D&D is clearly about very finite characters, who stand no chance of thwarting an infinite creature's agenda. So, then, there's no hope for stopping Ky'ral, as the PCs. With Infinite resources, the PCs can only decide to accept Ky'ral's plans or commit suicide. And that's assuming Ky'ral hasn't already decided to enslave their souls. This can't be right. How can the PCs be meaningful in a campaign where any outsider related to the top in any way automatically wins? :help: I suppose that it would mean never dealing with anyone with any position in any plane, or only those with finite positions. BTW, if this is correct, the LoP is clearly infinite, so stating her out is going to involve calculus and a comparision to other infinite entities. For what it matters, she automatically wins. You are waaaay overthinking this. Imagine this: There's an infinite amount of planes out there (material planes, inner planes, outer planes and demiplanes etc.). There's also an infinite amount of devils that has to take care of this... Now, to go mathematicly here, we would have to derivate to see which grows faster, meaning that we would get: x / x, derivated => 1/1 = 1. Thus, we would have 1 devil for each plane ;) No, that's just silly. The thing is that the outer planes are more of a concept of a reality than an actuall reality. Imagine them as a dream. A dream is infinitivly large, but also finitive at the same time. this is possible because the dream only exist as an idea in a persons head. The planes are much like that, a dream that exists inside a reality. Also, while Asmodeus controls Nesus, there's nothing that says that he controls ALL devils there. There could be countless upon countless of rival devils, where Asmodeus is just the most powerful one. I actually like the idea of several "Diabolic Lords" that claim to be the true ruler of the plane, just to be whacked by Asmodeus. That's also how the Spire in the Outlands works. The spire is the manifestation of the concept of infinity. Thus, you can see an end, while you can't reach it. You could also see it as a sort of add-on reality. If you haven't been there, it doesn't exist, but if you try to reach it, it suddenly exists so you can reach it. Thus, trying to reach the end of an infinite plane, will put you on an infinite journey :D
sciborg2 03-09-07, 07:36 PM	I see infinities as matters of degree, like countable versus uncountable....though admittedly bijections between "larger" and "smaller" countable sets may just make things worse. But in some sense its a metter of subsets, like negative integers may equal all integers but its a clear subset.... Or maybe better to see the planes as traveling through ideas, perhaps even traveling through yourself in some manner. If you could make Hate or Apathy into planes, how large would they be? Is there a limit to the landscape of Love, of Desperation, etc? In the end, I just chalk it up to mysteries like those themes in mythology -- "outside time/space", "resolution of opposities", etc.
Amon_WinterfallIV 03-10-07, 12:46 AM	Okay, guess I need to explain my train of thought. There is no messing with infinity. While some infinities are larger than others (hence why the calculus is useful), even a trillionth of infinity (Ky'ral) is still infinity, and hence always wins. I'm entirely failing to understand how something can be infinite and still be relevant to the game. Its my opinion that anyone who controls infinite anything automatically wins, thus proving themselves to be a really lame addition to a campaign setting. Not even Greater Deities automatically win. In my broken opinion, turning the lead outsiders into entities that automatically win, and then, through logic, math and basic reasoning, turning their lieutenants into creatures that automatically win (except against greater entities, such as their masters) Seems to be the logical outcome, and it also seems to suck. I don't understand this notion of 'Inifinty Lite' I entirely fail to understand how an finite creature can even be relevant in an infinite plane. If Asmodeus isn't infinite, then he would be exceeded an infinite number of places in Hell by greater forces. For the sake of clarity, one of these forces must be greater than all other forces (Math demands this) Said force would be infinite, and any other force that can relate to it in any meaningful way would also be infinite. The afformented Devils to Planes relationship is probably not the correct model. Mostly, because the number of Planes has nothing to do with the number of Devils. A correct model would look like dD/dt / dP/dt. Three outcomes are possible: 1. D outaccelerates P, so every plane is buried with an infinite number of Devils. 2. D and P operate on the same rate, so the number is a constant. While this is almost certainly the correct answer, what constant it is not answered by this model. 3. P outaccelerates D, so no devils exist (or the ones that do effectively have a density of zero) In a way, this whole exercise is to concede a well-stated point to Rip: A Deity is nothing compared to the Infinite Planes This is true. In fact, a world or prime or orb or whatchamacallit is also nothing compared to the infinite planes, or the enitites that run them. I accept my broken :( cosmology as the price I pay for having to sidestep infinity, I just can not truly fathom the consequnces of dealing with infinite beings. IMC, everything has a limit, everything is finite, and every thing has a place. My LoP would be CRed at 32, because this is the high end of power needed to hold a single world. LoP would be considerably weaker outside of Sigil.