Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zekemorgan 03-17-07, 11:08 PM	Just curious as I was going through the deities and demigods handbook. The thought is amusing :)
WilwarinAndamar 03-17-07, 11:17 PM	A guy who plays in our group, Dane, told us that in the campaign he was in before ours, the DM despised the name Garl Glittergold so much, he powered up his party to the point where the battled the diety...and won. :confused: I don't know the whole story, but that's it in a nutshell.
Kursk 03-17-07, 11:49 PM	Has anyone killed/tried to kill/thought of killing a god? Just curious as I was going through the deities and demigods handbook. The thought is amusing :) No, because I play with DMs who know how to DM.
bobothechimp 03-17-07, 11:59 PM	Once you hit epic, gods are about as threatening as kobolds. None of you have better bring up Pun-Pun. He doesn't count.
Someone 03-18-07, 12:14 AM	Just curious, this doesn't have anything to do with God of War II, does it? But if the DM decides that the plot demands a deity dies, then a deity dies, simple as that. The ol' deities and demigods book had a lot of them statted out, and as far as I recall, even the lowliest of gods were devastatingly powerful. Stuff like always winning initiative, always threatening a critical when they hit, etc.
Drodain 03-18-07, 12:15 AM	I shot a crossbow at C'thulu, does that count? I wasn't considering killing him, just distracting him.... Yeah, before we had no idea who the giant illithid thing was, now it just seems stupid.
Seeker95 03-18-07, 08:21 AM	A 2e campaign we had used this as its ultimate objective. We sought to free the Fenris Wolf, thereby triggering Ragnarok, seeking to kill Thor (and any other of the gods). We freed the Wolf. We got our asses handed to us by Thor. It was a fun campaign and an appropriate ending. Epic Rules (*ptooey*) be damned. Gods should be gods. They do not need stats.
Wharin 03-18-07, 10:19 AM	The closest I have came to killing a god, is in our Dark Sun campaign where our halfling did a 300-esque leap with an artifact spear (one that was designed to kill Sorceror Kings) and killed a Sorceror Queen in one shot. Of course, they aren't true gods, but they do fashion themselves as such.
Jenos_Idanian 03-18-07, 05:47 PM	I once heard tell of a drunken master that beat up an avatar of valsharoon, but nothing else really
Raust92 03-18-07, 07:36 PM	I was once flirting with the idea of taking over the abyss(which is virtually impossible!). Then I decided to ask my campaign to go down to the abyss and kill the Prince of the abyss!(which our campaign could suprisingly do), but unfortunetly we had nor the time or patience to do so.
Sudnji_cas 03-18-07, 07:45 PM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers?
Zandolit 03-18-07, 10:46 PM	We defeated (note: not killed) an attempting-to-manifest Azathoth that was possessing the body of an ally who was doing all he could to contain it and prevent it from hurting anyone. Even so, we lost half the party, nearly lost the rest, and I'd say a good hundred plus lower-level NPCs also got killed. It was necessary to do (it's not like we would have decided to do this unless threatened,) but it was not a good scene in spite of the fact we won. I don't recommend going after a god unless you have to, just speaking from personal experience.
Giant_Moth 03-18-07, 11:21 PM	The only thing that can kill a god is a DM with too little imagination.
SokenzanMarauder 03-18-07, 11:25 PM	The only thing that can kill a god is a DM with too little imagination. I disagree, if you've ever been over to Upper_Krust's forums you'll see all kinds of things that can kill gods. Of course, said things are often gods themselves. Or CR 9,000+ (really they're only around CR 900) golems, those work too. ----- However, sticking to core, I'd say there's absolutely no way that a PC should ever be able to kill a god. Unless said PC is a god himself, which probably isn't going to be too fun. -Gene
BlueFlames 03-18-07, 11:46 PM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers? A good point. The funny thing about the dieties is that as long as the worshipers don't realize and therefore don't believe that their god has been slain, said diety has a tendency to show up again. The other funny thing about the dieties is the whole all-powerful, all-knowing bit. It's a good bet that if you're really set on going after a diety, it's going to realize your intent, then rip your soul from your body and do not-nice things to it. Mortals need not toil in the affairs of the gods.
Chrono Nexus 03-18-07, 11:50 PM	However, sticking to core, I'd say there's absolutely no way that a PC should ever be able to kill a god. Gods are merely powerful mortals in close proximity to Sigil. There are means by which even the soul of a god can be bound. A god can be killed, and permanently, it's just a matter of how the DM pulls off the god. If he plays the god how they are represented by stats, than they are little more than supped up npcs. If they mistakenly try to fiat their way through the battle, I'd say they've failed to challenge their players or honestly represent the power of a god. Not all gods are omnipotent, and even the most powerful can be fooled.
green_yawgmoth 03-18-07, 11:57 PM	I had a character who killed Vecna, in a very high epic game (I was level 40 and a lesser god in my own right when I fought Vecna, and was level 50 and an intermediate god by the end of the game). I now await the ZOMFG NERD RAEG over me playing (a) a character over level 25 who (b) became a god and wasn't retired and (c) killed a god. Go ahead, it's cool, I'm ready for it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
HomebrewedMonster 03-19-07, 12:50 AM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers? Its funny you say that, in a Forgotten Realm's campaign we played followers of Mask. Mainly rogue/clerics/assassins, our goal as a party was to kill other rogue gods so Mask could take over their portfolio. We knew we couldn't kill gods, so we started to kill off their followers. It didn't work, we ended up getting killed by an avatar at 9th level after we killed our 300th follower.
The_Cheeseman 03-19-07, 01:55 AM	I DM'ed an epic, evil game in which a party of four 32nd-level gestalt characters killed Velsharoon. It really only worked because one character was a demilich, the rest of the party got wiped pretty early in the fight. Not much even a rank 5 demigod can do to a magic-immune, undead spellcaster with an AC of over 100. I statted him up as a lich wizard (necromancer) 25th, red wizard 10th, archmage 5th, but with no outsider hit dice (like Vecna). He has automatic quicken spell and multispell twice, intensify spell, improved heighten, the works. Shame the demilich was immune to magic, and her AC was so obscene that nothing he summoned could touch her. Was a fun fight, though! Really, up to rank 5 deities are quite killable (assuming you don't give them Alter Reality) by a powerful-enough epic party. Once you start getting to actual lesser deities and can access SDAs like Life and Death, things get a bit more obscene. Greater deities are basically untouchable, and no competent DM should ever lose a fight running one.
FntsyWlkr 03-19-07, 02:47 PM	... funny you should mention it ... we just did last weekend. I was playing a Fighter/stonelord 13/7 ... that had JUST turned into an Earth Elemental. I had grabbed a bad guy NPC by the head and was using him (as he absorbed magical abilities) to hit the main bad guy ... ... in fact ... we kinda killed TWO gods ...
skywyze 03-19-07, 02:57 PM	I killed Hercules. He was peeing on my lilacs outside, so I went and beat him with a shovel until he stopped moving. He's still lying there, and now he's beginning to smell. Of course, he's not so much a god as a demigod, so I'm not sure if it counts. :confused:
swallowyersoul 03-19-07, 08:37 PM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers? we had a campaign that pursued that idea. characters were holy warriors in a god's cult. they lost a huge battle and turned away from said god, decided to hunt down and kill every follower of the god on every plane. ultimately, they discovered that their own hatred was a strong enough belief to keep the god alive despite having killed all his other worshippers. so they commited suicide.
Raust92 03-19-07, 10:47 PM	Sorry, but who is theocide? Is he the prince of the abyss himself? If so our now level 20 campaign can take him out, along with his minions
WhiteRaven810 03-20-07, 01:13 AM	Sorry, but who is theocide? Is he the prince of the abyss himself? If so our now level 20 campaign can take him out, along with his minions -rolls a Sense Motive vs. sarcasm check- Theocide, root word -cide, Latin for to kill (roughly). So that act would be to kill a god, in the same way regicide would mean to kill royality.
ArcTan 03-20-07, 02:05 AM	-rolls a Sense Motive vs. sarcasm check- Theocide, root word -cide, Latin for to kill (roughly). So that act would be to kill a god, in the same way regicide would mean to kill royality. The word would be "deicide", since the "cide" words are Latin (from "caedere", "to cut down" or "to kill"), and "theos" is the *Greek* word for "god" -- the Latin is "deus". (The term "deus ex machina", for example, is the Latin translation of the Greek "apo mechanes theos".) Mixing Latin and Greek roots is bad form, even though people still do it a lot -- like the word "television", which combines the Greek "tele-" with the Latin "vision", mainly because "telescope" was already a word.
Terraneaux 03-20-07, 03:55 AM	The Age of Worms adventure path published by Paizo culminates in just that- the PCs having to have a showdown with the necromancer Kyuss, ascended to godhood. I played a character through that campaign, and I believe I was level 22 at the end of it (levelled to 23 off of Kyuss). The fight at the end was somewhat underwhelming, however. There just wasn't much he could do against our party of contingencied, buffed epic level characters.
ImmortalBlueMage 03-20-07, 04:06 AM	[QUOTE=Seeker95;11811304Epic Rules (*ptooey*) be damned. Gods should be gods. They do not need stats.[/QUOTE] I agree. The stats for most gods should look like this: HP: Too many. AC: Higher than you can hit. Attk Bonus: High enough to hit you. Damage: Enough to kill you. Spells: All of them. Even ones you've never heard of. Saves: High enough to save on everything. Now, maybe an Aspect, or even an Avatar, is appropriate for a high enough level party, but a god him/her/itself? Absurd. Of course, lots of other DMs enjoy pitting their players against gods, and that's their perogative, but myself, I find it very cliche. Every 2e player I've ever met was just clamoring to tell me that very boring story of the time they killed a god. They all sound the same.
Terraneaux 03-20-07, 04:17 AM	So what about stories in mythology that deal with mortals or other heroic characters fighting (and beating) gods? Gods in DnD are closer to ancient Greek or Norse gods than the "God" of a few notable monotheistic religions in the real world.
Xanaphia_Undomiel 03-20-07, 04:21 AM	I have a super high arcana setting, where my company Austracide is an assasin guild. On their price list it says at the bottom: Demigod: 30,000,000,000 gp (1,000,000 deposit) Deity: 700,000,000,000 gp (20,000,000 deposit) Greater Deity: 150,000,000,000,000 gp (2,000,000,000 deposit) I put it in as a joke.
Bedevere 03-20-07, 04:51 AM	The only thing that can kill a god is a DM with too little imagination. Pun Pun. Of course, he is assumed to have Divine rank by default, but doesn't actually HAVE to. :) Still, while the build is ridiculous, it still shows how mortals CAN attain power beyond even the gods. Like someone already said, there are many myths where mortals outwit / beat / whatever the gods on a regular basis. The gods are better, but not unbeatable.
maskimus 03-20-07, 04:03 PM	Way back when, in a 1E campaign, our party killed a minor god. 10 seconds later the sky openned up and a literal mountain of treasure fell to earth. We had dragons from all over coming and taking stuff, and the mountain didn't seem to get any smaller. We ultimately disguised the mountain with an illusionary terrain spell so that we wouldn't ruin the planets economy. Good times!!:cool:
seldom_seen 03-20-07, 09:45 PM	I had a homebrew campaign many, many (many) years ago that revolved around eventually fighting a Diety. The party was to search out and gather separate pieces of armor belonging to Ares. Each piece of armor was almost an artifact in and of itself. Upon gathering all pieces, (shield, breastplate, helm, bracers, and boots), whowever was wearing them all would have to fight Ares, who wanted them back. Alas, the group dissolved prior to the final fight, never to reconvene, so I never got to see the final outcome.:weep:
Zandolit 03-20-07, 09:54 PM	10 seconds later the sky openned up and a literal mountain of treasure fell to earth. You got treasure for killing a god? I'm jealous. ;) We didn't. We got nightmares and psychological problems, and my character spent all the gold and assorted valuables she'd previously managed to accumulate to resurrect the formerly-possessed NPC I mentioned (we had to kill him in the process of fighting the god, poor guy.) I'm only kidding about being jealous. It totally made sense, and our campaign was low-wealth, so treasure was never really an expectation. It was worth doing, and having done it was the reward. :)
Raust92 03-20-07, 11:07 PM	Oh boy do I feel stupid.....
StevenO 03-23-07, 12:07 AM	Killing a God is the pentultimate objective it the Age of Worms campain from Dungeon magazine.
lordofthe_wog 03-23-07, 12:41 AM	Me and a friend of mine came up with a way to kill anyone Require: Two 60th level Warlocks What you do: Go to one plane, then use your combined eldritch blasts to destroy the plane. Everyone who doesn't teleport off fast enough is either killed in the explosion or sealed in open matter for all eternity. :angelhide:
Mightyflapjack 03-23-07, 08:59 PM	2nd Edition? Yes. Level 343 Character (played for 14 years). Was given a job by AO in Faerun to police the other Gods (hence became an NPC). (Much of that was solo role-playing.. I would pick up a Monster Manual Binder flip to a page and start fighting them in a row. My folks loved to take us on camping trips with no phone, TV, or Atari... So I had nothing better to do.)
Raust92 03-24-07, 05:25 PM	There was this one time awhile back. Where we were in a guild hall. I accidently stumbled upon one of the rooms.(Note I was still 20th level at the time). I was face to face with the dwarven god himself! I had to roll a fortitude save to not get killed by his masterful gaze. Fortunate for myself I only got knocked uncconcious
GreyLord 03-24-07, 06:15 PM	I suppose it depends on how you interpret deities in your campaign. I'll allow it if they get suitable enough power and wish to take the risk and are actually successful. It's one way for their characters to become deities themselves...after which of course the PC becomes NPC. Dieties are simply immortal beings with great power to aid or hurt the universe in my campaigns however.
CharlieRock 03-24-07, 07:11 PM	Just curious as I was going through the deities and demigods handbook. The thought is amusing :) Waaay back when it looked like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Dietiesanddemigodscover.jpg/200px-Dietiesanddemigodscover.jpg It was just for fun. We had a few characters top out levels and wanted to see what would happen.
Splendide 03-24-07, 07:21 PM	My dwarf shaman was in a position to kill Nerull at one point, but refused to do so.
HerbalTea 03-24-07, 07:56 PM	The word would be "deicide", since the "cide" words are Latin (from "caedere", "to cut down" or "to kill"), and "theos" is the *Greek* word for "god" -- the Latin is "deus". (The term "deus ex machina", for example, is the Latin translation of the Greek "apo mechanes theos".) Mixing Latin and Greek roots is bad form, even though people still do it a lot -- like the word "television", which combines the Greek "tele-" with the Latin "vision", mainly because "telescope" was already a word. I swear you people do four hours of research on google to prepare your answers :D
Sudnji_cas 03-24-07, 08:36 PM	I swear you people do four hours of research on google to prepare your answers :D Are you talking about me or him? you are quoting him, but I'm the one that sounded stupid, right?
GraveDigger 03-25-07, 10:13 PM	I once got the Diety Erythnul down to 1 hit point in two attacks and then he teleported me bye bye... I was a lvl30 character levels in barbarian/frenzied beserker/Legendary Dreadnaught doing 4d8 dmg with the abillity to add 150 to 500 dmg to all of my attacks.
WizO_Cat 03-25-07, 10:54 PM	*Moved to more appropriae forum * As to the topic, the only two that I've ever remembered as a player trying to do combat with are: Asmodeus - a homemade adventure with some high level characters. Lolth - I think it was module Q1 back in the day.
Gideon_Gideonson 03-25-07, 11:00 PM	Took out Nerull once with my epic artificer. Would've gotten the whole pantheon to, if the DM hadn't proceeded to ban all my custom items (heh...).
Fencerboy 03-25-07, 11:12 PM	I swear you people do four hours of research on google to prepare your answers :D Its not hard to use google, and if you have a decent knowledge of language roots or *wow* you know Latin *ooh* than its about as simple as defining dumb. *Moved to more appropriae forum * As to the topic, the only two that I've ever remembered as a player trying to do combat with are: Asmodeus - a homemade adventure with some high level characters. Lolth - I think it was module Q1 back in the day. Ooh, a WizO reply! :eek:
Ront Iron-Roar 03-26-07, 08:26 AM	I've entertained the idea of having Ront trying to go and kill Gruumsh when he gets high enough and only if the campaign ever goes that way. Since our DM is bent on having us come into contact with the Army of Obould Many-Arrows... The DM wants us to destroy the Horde of Orcs but I have Ront thinking of his own agenda. Kick the ass of Obould and force the orcs to do good with an ironfist. See Ront doesn't want any other half-orc to go through the racism and persecution that he and alot of other half-orcs went through. So he believes to correct the problem he needs to help make a better image for the Orcs. It'll be hard but an epic level with the right amount of force and intimidation can keep that rabble under control and work something out. So if that happens he might try to take out Big Old One-eye.
Mirtek 03-26-07, 12:24 PM	Since Gruumsh has the ability to just auto-kill any mortal he wants, that's certainly not the best idead :P
Ront Iron-Roar 03-27-07, 08:06 AM	Since Gruumsh has the ability to just auto-kill any mortal he wants, that's certainly not the best idead :P For all I know Ront may get lucky for once. The DM might actually give him the equipment appropriate for his level and I might actually roll that three criticals on a row on Gruumsh that he always seems to get on creatures immune to crits. He's gotten to epic the only thing now I really need to do for Ront is give him an epic death. A warrior's death... So if he stabs Gruumsh in the foot as his last act then so be it.
ArcTan 03-28-07, 03:01 AM	Its not hard to use google, and if you have a decent knowledge of language roots or *wow* you know Latin *ooh* than its about as simple as defining dumb. Yeah, it's really not four hours of research, it's something I just knew from having a little bit of Latin and Greek. It's not really the sort of thing worth correcting on its own -- I just didn't want "theocide" to become the official boards term, because seeing words like that does bother my little classicist's heart just a little.
sciborg2 03-28-07, 12:24 PM	we had a campaign that pursued that idea. characters were holy warriors in a god's cult. they lost a huge battle and turned away from said god, decided to hunt down and kill every follower of the god on every plane. ultimately, they discovered that their own hatred was a strong enough belief to keep the god alive despite having killed all his other worshippers. so they commited suicide. that, my friend, is totally friggin' awesome. As to statting vs non-statting, check out the Malazan novels. The gods are little more, or perhaps less, than powerful mortals and it works out just fine.
Rogue Shadows 03-28-07, 01:57 PM	I generally rule that only a god, or god-like being, can kill a god, God being defined as anything with a DvR of at least 1. God-like being is defined as the most powerful non-deific outsiders - Slaad lords, demon princes, and the like. Even for them it's an epic struggle. Gods otherwise can't be harmed by mortals, and all spells fail. Although the gods rarely if ever enter into my campaigns, anyway. I don't see the point of epic level.
Halaku 03-28-07, 02:50 PM	I will yet have yondolla's head on a pike! In seriousness though, had a psion turned thrallherd/mindswitched illithid turned savant that was trying to kill yondolla by genocide against halflings, the game tanked though, differnt schedules ruined game days.
alex2003 04-09-07, 10:31 AM	I tried and succeeded more than once as a player and gave my group more than once the chance to do so. As far as I understand, this means I am a bad DM and my DM is also bad. That seems to be the general opinion here. But remeber that the 3rd edition Deities&Demigods provides some rules to get divine features by killing gods or another scenario where the gods are always walking between the mortals. Also we should remember the good old days where more than one official adventure written by old school guys includes killing Tiamat or Lolth. The upcoming "Demonweb Pits" adventure must also invlude killing Lolth or it is not the original conversion of the old 1st edition adventure it should be.
Andyr 04-09-07, 01:02 PM	The upcoming "Demonweb Pits" adventure must also invlude killing Lolth or it is not the original conversion of the old 1st edition adventure it should be. I don't think it is meant to be a conversion of the old module.
alex2003 04-09-07, 01:44 PM	I don't think it is meant to be a conversion of the old module. This would be like making "Tomb of Horrors" or "White Plume Mountain" a whole new adventure (which they didn't do). :( But back to the original topic... It is absolutely o.k. to let a party kill a god. At least they can assume they killed him. Basically they killed an avatar or the god reforms just some days after their "success". That's o.k. Why? Because it provides a long term enemity between the party and at least one god and it provides a lot of fun to some players. And the latter is the main goal of AD&D, right? To have fun! So why all this criticism about being nuts to think about killing or letting kill a god? If the party and the DM has fun doing it.. let's go!
Mirtek 04-09-07, 05:51 PM	Tome of Horrors also only killed a decoy of the demilich and not the real demilich himself. So I think that DWP will feature an aspect of Lolth instead of Lolth herself. The level of the adventurer supports this theory, otherwise it would need to be an 70th level adventurer with Lolth 3e stats.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-09-07, 07:04 PM	Let me see here... My previous campaign saw the death of one god by an NPC, two deific avatars killed by an NPC, one deific avatar killed by a PC (via an artifact). There were several direct combats against avatars or planar projections of archfiends, and one suckerpunch of an archfiend's true form under extenuating circumstances. :)
Shemeska the Marauder 04-09-07, 07:12 PM	The upcoming "Demonweb Pits" adventure must also invlude killing Lolth or it is not the original conversion of the old 1st edition adventure it should be. It's not a remake of Q1, it's its own planar adventure set in the Abyss and other locations, heavily involving Lolth and several Abyssal Lords.
ripvanwormer 04-09-07, 08:04 PM	I don't think it is meant to be a conversion of the old module. I know for a fact it isn't (because the chief designer said so). Expedition isn't a rehash of or a return to the 1st edition module at all.
zekemorgan 03-17-07, 11:08 PM	Just curious as I was going through the deities and demigods handbook. The thought is amusing :)
WilwarinAndamar 03-17-07, 11:17 PM	A guy who plays in our group, Dane, told us that in the campaign he was in before ours, the DM despised the name Garl Glittergold so much, he powered up his party to the point where the battled the diety...and won. :confused: I don't know the whole story, but that's it in a nutshell.
Kursk 03-17-07, 11:49 PM	Has anyone killed/tried to kill/thought of killing a god? Just curious as I was going through the deities and demigods handbook. The thought is amusing :) No, because I play with DMs who know how to DM.
bobothechimp 03-17-07, 11:59 PM	Once you hit epic, gods are about as threatening as kobolds. None of you have better bring up Pun-Pun. He doesn't count.
Someone 03-18-07, 12:14 AM	Just curious, this doesn't have anything to do with God of War II, does it? But if the DM decides that the plot demands a deity dies, then a deity dies, simple as that. The ol' deities and demigods book had a lot of them statted out, and as far as I recall, even the lowliest of gods were devastatingly powerful. Stuff like always winning initiative, always threatening a critical when they hit, etc.
Drodain 03-18-07, 12:15 AM	I shot a crossbow at C'thulu, does that count? I wasn't considering killing him, just distracting him.... Yeah, before we had no idea who the giant illithid thing was, now it just seems stupid.
Seeker95 03-18-07, 08:21 AM	A 2e campaign we had used this as its ultimate objective. We sought to free the Fenris Wolf, thereby triggering Ragnarok, seeking to kill Thor (and any other of the gods). We freed the Wolf. We got our asses handed to us by Thor. It was a fun campaign and an appropriate ending. Epic Rules (*ptooey*) be damned. Gods should be gods. They do not need stats.
Wharin 03-18-07, 10:19 AM	The closest I have came to killing a god, is in our Dark Sun campaign where our halfling did a 300-esque leap with an artifact spear (one that was designed to kill Sorceror Kings) and killed a Sorceror Queen in one shot. Of course, they aren't true gods, but they do fashion themselves as such.
Jenos_Idanian 03-18-07, 05:47 PM	I once heard tell of a drunken master that beat up an avatar of valsharoon, but nothing else really
Raust92 03-18-07, 07:36 PM	I was once flirting with the idea of taking over the abyss(which is virtually impossible!). Then I decided to ask my campaign to go down to the abyss and kill the Prince of the abyss!(which our campaign could suprisingly do), but unfortunetly we had nor the time or patience to do so.
Sudnji_cas 03-18-07, 07:45 PM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers?
Zandolit 03-18-07, 10:46 PM	We defeated (note: not killed) an attempting-to-manifest Azathoth that was possessing the body of an ally who was doing all he could to contain it and prevent it from hurting anyone. Even so, we lost half the party, nearly lost the rest, and I'd say a good hundred plus lower-level NPCs also got killed. It was necessary to do (it's not like we would have decided to do this unless threatened,) but it was not a good scene in spite of the fact we won. I don't recommend going after a god unless you have to, just speaking from personal experience.
Giant_Moth 03-18-07, 11:21 PM	The only thing that can kill a god is a DM with too little imagination.
SokenzanMarauder 03-18-07, 11:25 PM	The only thing that can kill a god is a DM with too little imagination. I disagree, if you've ever been over to Upper_Krust's forums you'll see all kinds of things that can kill gods. Of course, said things are often gods themselves. Or CR 9,000+ (really they're only around CR 900) golems, those work too. ----- However, sticking to core, I'd say there's absolutely no way that a PC should ever be able to kill a god. Unless said PC is a god himself, which probably isn't going to be too fun. -Gene
BlueFlames 03-18-07, 11:46 PM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers? A good point. The funny thing about the dieties is that as long as the worshipers don't realize and therefore don't believe that their god has been slain, said diety has a tendency to show up again. The other funny thing about the dieties is the whole all-powerful, all-knowing bit. It's a good bet that if you're really set on going after a diety, it's going to realize your intent, then rip your soul from your body and do not-nice things to it. Mortals need not toil in the affairs of the gods.
Chrono Nexus 03-18-07, 11:50 PM	However, sticking to core, I'd say there's absolutely no way that a PC should ever be able to kill a god. Gods are merely powerful mortals in close proximity to Sigil. There are means by which even the soul of a god can be bound. A god can be killed, and permanently, it's just a matter of how the DM pulls off the god. If he plays the god how they are represented by stats, than they are little more than supped up npcs. If they mistakenly try to fiat their way through the battle, I'd say they've failed to challenge their players or honestly represent the power of a god. Not all gods are omnipotent, and even the most powerful can be fooled.
green_yawgmoth 03-18-07, 11:57 PM	I had a character who killed Vecna, in a very high epic game (I was level 40 and a lesser god in my own right when I fought Vecna, and was level 50 and an intermediate god by the end of the game). I now await the ZOMFG NERD RAEG over me playing (a) a character over level 25 who (b) became a god and wasn't retired and (c) killed a god. Go ahead, it's cool, I'm ready for it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
HomebrewedMonster 03-19-07, 12:50 AM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers? Its funny you say that, in a Forgotten Realm's campaign we played followers of Mask. Mainly rogue/clerics/assassins, our goal as a party was to kill other rogue gods so Mask could take over their portfolio. We knew we couldn't kill gods, so we started to kill off their followers. It didn't work, we ended up getting killed by an avatar at 9th level after we killed our 300th follower.
The_Cheeseman 03-19-07, 01:55 AM	I DM'ed an epic, evil game in which a party of four 32nd-level gestalt characters killed Velsharoon. It really only worked because one character was a demilich, the rest of the party got wiped pretty early in the fight. Not much even a rank 5 demigod can do to a magic-immune, undead spellcaster with an AC of over 100. I statted him up as a lich wizard (necromancer) 25th, red wizard 10th, archmage 5th, but with no outsider hit dice (like Vecna). He has automatic quicken spell and multispell twice, intensify spell, improved heighten, the works. Shame the demilich was immune to magic, and her AC was so obscene that nothing he summoned could touch her. Was a fun fight, though! Really, up to rank 5 deities are quite killable (assuming you don't give them Alter Reality) by a powerful-enough epic party. Once you start getting to actual lesser deities and can access SDAs like Life and Death, things get a bit more obscene. Greater deities are basically untouchable, and no competent DM should ever lose a fight running one.
FntsyWlkr 03-19-07, 02:47 PM	... funny you should mention it ... we just did last weekend. I was playing a Fighter/stonelord 13/7 ... that had JUST turned into an Earth Elemental. I had grabbed a bad guy NPC by the head and was using him (as he absorbed magical abilities) to hit the main bad guy ... ... in fact ... we kinda killed TWO gods ...
skywyze 03-19-07, 02:57 PM	I killed Hercules. He was peeing on my lilacs outside, so I went and beat him with a shovel until he stopped moving. He's still lying there, and now he's beginning to smell. Of course, he's not so much a god as a demigod, so I'm not sure if it counts. :confused:
swallowyersoul 03-19-07, 08:37 PM	Theocide? How about killing all his worshipers? we had a campaign that pursued that idea. characters were holy warriors in a god's cult. they lost a huge battle and turned away from said god, decided to hunt down and kill every follower of the god on every plane. ultimately, they discovered that their own hatred was a strong enough belief to keep the god alive despite having killed all his other worshippers. so they commited suicide.
Raust92 03-19-07, 10:47 PM	Sorry, but who is theocide? Is he the prince of the abyss himself? If so our now level 20 campaign can take him out, along with his minions
WhiteRaven810 03-20-07, 01:13 AM	Sorry, but who is theocide? Is he the prince of the abyss himself? If so our now level 20 campaign can take him out, along with his minions -rolls a Sense Motive vs. sarcasm check- Theocide, root word -cide, Latin for to kill (roughly). So that act would be to kill a god, in the same way regicide would mean to kill royality.
ArcTan 03-20-07, 02:05 AM	-rolls a Sense Motive vs. sarcasm check- Theocide, root word -cide, Latin for to kill (roughly). So that act would be to kill a god, in the same way regicide would mean to kill royality. The word would be "deicide", since the "cide" words are Latin (from "caedere", "to cut down" or "to kill"), and "theos" is the *Greek* word for "god" -- the Latin is "deus". (The term "deus ex machina", for example, is the Latin translation of the Greek "apo mechanes theos".) Mixing Latin and Greek roots is bad form, even though people still do it a lot -- like the word "television", which combines the Greek "tele-" with the Latin "vision", mainly because "telescope" was already a word.
Terraneaux 03-20-07, 03:55 AM	The Age of Worms adventure path published by Paizo culminates in just that- the PCs having to have a showdown with the necromancer Kyuss, ascended to godhood. I played a character through that campaign, and I believe I was level 22 at the end of it (levelled to 23 off of Kyuss). The fight at the end was somewhat underwhelming, however. There just wasn't much he could do against our party of contingencied, buffed epic level characters.
ImmortalBlueMage 03-20-07, 04:06 AM	[QUOTE=Seeker95;11811304Epic Rules (*ptooey*) be damned. Gods should be gods. They do not need stats.[/QUOTE] I agree. The stats for most gods should look like this: HP: Too many. AC: Higher than you can hit. Attk Bonus: High enough to hit you. Damage: Enough to kill you. Spells: All of them. Even ones you've never heard of. Saves: High enough to save on everything. Now, maybe an Aspect, or even an Avatar, is appropriate for a high enough level party, but a god him/her/itself? Absurd. Of course, lots of other DMs enjoy pitting their players against gods, and that's their perogative, but myself, I find it very cliche. Every 2e player I've ever met was just clamoring to tell me that very boring story of the time they killed a god. They all sound the same.
Terraneaux 03-20-07, 04:17 AM	So what about stories in mythology that deal with mortals or other heroic characters fighting (and beating) gods? Gods in DnD are closer to ancient Greek or Norse gods than the "God" of a few notable monotheistic religions in the real world.
Xanaphia_Undomiel 03-20-07, 04:21 AM	I have a super high arcana setting, where my company Austracide is an assasin guild. On their price list it says at the bottom: Demigod: 30,000,000,000 gp (1,000,000 deposit) Deity: 700,000,000,000 gp (20,000,000 deposit) Greater Deity: 150,000,000,000,000 gp (2,000,000,000 deposit) I put it in as a joke.
Bedevere 03-20-07, 04:51 AM	The only thing that can kill a god is a DM with too little imagination. Pun Pun. Of course, he is assumed to have Divine rank by default, but doesn't actually HAVE to. :) Still, while the build is ridiculous, it still shows how mortals CAN attain power beyond even the gods. Like someone already said, there are many myths where mortals outwit / beat / whatever the gods on a regular basis. The gods are better, but not unbeatable.
maskimus 03-20-07, 04:03 PM	Way back when, in a 1E campaign, our party killed a minor god. 10 seconds later the sky openned up and a literal mountain of treasure fell to earth. We had dragons from all over coming and taking stuff, and the mountain didn't seem to get any smaller. We ultimately disguised the mountain with an illusionary terrain spell so that we wouldn't ruin the planets economy. Good times!!:cool:
seldom_seen 03-20-07, 09:45 PM	I had a homebrew campaign many, many (many) years ago that revolved around eventually fighting a Diety. The party was to search out and gather separate pieces of armor belonging to Ares. Each piece of armor was almost an artifact in and of itself. Upon gathering all pieces, (shield, breastplate, helm, bracers, and boots), whowever was wearing them all would have to fight Ares, who wanted them back. Alas, the group dissolved prior to the final fight, never to reconvene, so I never got to see the final outcome.:weep:
Zandolit 03-20-07, 09:54 PM	10 seconds later the sky openned up and a literal mountain of treasure fell to earth. You got treasure for killing a god? I'm jealous. ;) We didn't. We got nightmares and psychological problems, and my character spent all the gold and assorted valuables she'd previously managed to accumulate to resurrect the formerly-possessed NPC I mentioned (we had to kill him in the process of fighting the god, poor guy.) I'm only kidding about being jealous. It totally made sense, and our campaign was low-wealth, so treasure was never really an expectation. It was worth doing, and having done it was the reward. :)
Raust92 03-20-07, 11:07 PM	Oh boy do I feel stupid.....
StevenO 03-23-07, 12:07 AM	Killing a God is the pentultimate objective it the Age of Worms campain from Dungeon magazine.
lordofthe_wog 03-23-07, 12:41 AM	Me and a friend of mine came up with a way to kill anyone Require: Two 60th level Warlocks What you do: Go to one plane, then use your combined eldritch blasts to destroy the plane. Everyone who doesn't teleport off fast enough is either killed in the explosion or sealed in open matter for all eternity. :angelhide:
Mightyflapjack 03-23-07, 08:59 PM	2nd Edition? Yes. Level 343 Character (played for 14 years). Was given a job by AO in Faerun to police the other Gods (hence became an NPC). (Much of that was solo role-playing.. I would pick up a Monster Manual Binder flip to a page and start fighting them in a row. My folks loved to take us on camping trips with no phone, TV, or Atari... So I had nothing better to do.)
Raust92 03-24-07, 05:25 PM	There was this one time awhile back. Where we were in a guild hall. I accidently stumbled upon one of the rooms.(Note I was still 20th level at the time). I was face to face with the dwarven god himself! I had to roll a fortitude save to not get killed by his masterful gaze. Fortunate for myself I only got knocked uncconcious
GreyLord 03-24-07, 06:15 PM	I suppose it depends on how you interpret deities in your campaign. I'll allow it if they get suitable enough power and wish to take the risk and are actually successful. It's one way for their characters to become deities themselves...after which of course the PC becomes NPC. Dieties are simply immortal beings with great power to aid or hurt the universe in my campaigns however.
CharlieRock 03-24-07, 07:11 PM	Just curious as I was going through the deities and demigods handbook. The thought is amusing :) Waaay back when it looked like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Dietiesanddemigodscover.jpg/200px-Dietiesanddemigodscover.jpg It was just for fun. We had a few characters top out levels and wanted to see what would happen.
Splendide 03-24-07, 07:21 PM	My dwarf shaman was in a position to kill Nerull at one point, but refused to do so.
HerbalTea 03-24-07, 07:56 PM	The word would be "deicide", since the "cide" words are Latin (from "caedere", "to cut down" or "to kill"), and "theos" is the *Greek* word for "god" -- the Latin is "deus". (The term "deus ex machina", for example, is the Latin translation of the Greek "apo mechanes theos".) Mixing Latin and Greek roots is bad form, even though people still do it a lot -- like the word "television", which combines the Greek "tele-" with the Latin "vision", mainly because "telescope" was already a word. I swear you people do four hours of research on google to prepare your answers :D
Sudnji_cas 03-24-07, 08:36 PM	I swear you people do four hours of research on google to prepare your answers :D Are you talking about me or him? you are quoting him, but I'm the one that sounded stupid, right?
GraveDigger 03-25-07, 10:13 PM	I once got the Diety Erythnul down to 1 hit point in two attacks and then he teleported me bye bye... I was a lvl30 character levels in barbarian/frenzied beserker/Legendary Dreadnaught doing 4d8 dmg with the abillity to add 150 to 500 dmg to all of my attacks.
WizO_Cat 03-25-07, 10:54 PM	*Moved to more appropriae forum * As to the topic, the only two that I've ever remembered as a player trying to do combat with are: Asmodeus - a homemade adventure with some high level characters. Lolth - I think it was module Q1 back in the day.
Gideon_Gideonson 03-25-07, 11:00 PM	Took out Nerull once with my epic artificer. Would've gotten the whole pantheon to, if the DM hadn't proceeded to ban all my custom items (heh...).
Fencerboy 03-25-07, 11:12 PM	I swear you people do four hours of research on google to prepare your answers :D Its not hard to use google, and if you have a decent knowledge of language roots or *wow* you know Latin *ooh* than its about as simple as defining dumb. *Moved to more appropriae forum * As to the topic, the only two that I've ever remembered as a player trying to do combat with are: Asmodeus - a homemade adventure with some high level characters. Lolth - I think it was module Q1 back in the day. Ooh, a WizO reply! :eek:
Ront Iron-Roar 03-26-07, 08:26 AM	I've entertained the idea of having Ront trying to go and kill Gruumsh when he gets high enough and only if the campaign ever goes that way. Since our DM is bent on having us come into contact with the Army of Obould Many-Arrows... The DM wants us to destroy the Horde of Orcs but I have Ront thinking of his own agenda. Kick the ass of Obould and force the orcs to do good with an ironfist. See Ront doesn't want any other half-orc to go through the racism and persecution that he and alot of other half-orcs went through. So he believes to correct the problem he needs to help make a better image for the Orcs. It'll be hard but an epic level with the right amount of force and intimidation can keep that rabble under control and work something out. So if that happens he might try to take out Big Old One-eye.
Mirtek 03-26-07, 12:24 PM	Since Gruumsh has the ability to just auto-kill any mortal he wants, that's certainly not the best idead :P
Ront Iron-Roar 03-27-07, 08:06 AM	Since Gruumsh has the ability to just auto-kill any mortal he wants, that's certainly not the best idead :P For all I know Ront may get lucky for once. The DM might actually give him the equipment appropriate for his level and I might actually roll that three criticals on a row on Gruumsh that he always seems to get on creatures immune to crits. He's gotten to epic the only thing now I really need to do for Ront is give him an epic death. A warrior's death... So if he stabs Gruumsh in the foot as his last act then so be it.
ArcTan 03-28-07, 03:01 AM	Its not hard to use google, and if you have a decent knowledge of language roots or *wow* you know Latin *ooh* than its about as simple as defining dumb. Yeah, it's really not four hours of research, it's something I just knew from having a little bit of Latin and Greek. It's not really the sort of thing worth correcting on its own -- I just didn't want "theocide" to become the official boards term, because seeing words like that does bother my little classicist's heart just a little.
sciborg2 03-28-07, 12:24 PM	we had a campaign that pursued that idea. characters were holy warriors in a god's cult. they lost a huge battle and turned away from said god, decided to hunt down and kill every follower of the god on every plane. ultimately, they discovered that their own hatred was a strong enough belief to keep the god alive despite having killed all his other worshippers. so they commited suicide. that, my friend, is totally friggin' awesome. As to statting vs non-statting, check out the Malazan novels. The gods are little more, or perhaps less, than powerful mortals and it works out just fine.
Rogue Shadows 03-28-07, 01:57 PM	I generally rule that only a god, or god-like being, can kill a god, God being defined as anything with a DvR of at least 1. God-like being is defined as the most powerful non-deific outsiders - Slaad lords, demon princes, and the like. Even for them it's an epic struggle. Gods otherwise can't be harmed by mortals, and all spells fail. Although the gods rarely if ever enter into my campaigns, anyway. I don't see the point of epic level.
Halaku 03-28-07, 02:50 PM	I will yet have yondolla's head on a pike! In seriousness though, had a psion turned thrallherd/mindswitched illithid turned savant that was trying to kill yondolla by genocide against halflings, the game tanked though, differnt schedules ruined game days.
alex2003 04-09-07, 10:31 AM	I tried and succeeded more than once as a player and gave my group more than once the chance to do so. As far as I understand, this means I am a bad DM and my DM is also bad. That seems to be the general opinion here. But remeber that the 3rd edition Deities&Demigods provides some rules to get divine features by killing gods or another scenario where the gods are always walking between the mortals. Also we should remember the good old days where more than one official adventure written by old school guys includes killing Tiamat or Lolth. The upcoming "Demonweb Pits" adventure must also invlude killing Lolth or it is not the original conversion of the old 1st edition adventure it should be.
Andyr 04-09-07, 01:02 PM	The upcoming "Demonweb Pits" adventure must also invlude killing Lolth or it is not the original conversion of the old 1st edition adventure it should be. I don't think it is meant to be a conversion of the old module.
alex2003 04-09-07, 01:44 PM	I don't think it is meant to be a conversion of the old module. This would be like making "Tomb of Horrors" or "White Plume Mountain" a whole new adventure (which they didn't do). :( But back to the original topic... It is absolutely o.k. to let a party kill a god. At least they can assume they killed him. Basically they killed an avatar or the god reforms just some days after their "success". That's o.k. Why? Because it provides a long term enemity between the party and at least one god and it provides a lot of fun to some players. And the latter is the main goal of AD&D, right? To have fun! So why all this criticism about being nuts to think about killing or letting kill a god? If the party and the DM has fun doing it.. let's go!
Mirtek 04-09-07, 05:51 PM	Tome of Horrors also only killed a decoy of the demilich and not the real demilich himself. So I think that DWP will feature an aspect of Lolth instead of Lolth herself. The level of the adventurer supports this theory, otherwise it would need to be an 70th level adventurer with Lolth 3e stats.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-09-07, 07:04 PM	Let me see here... My previous campaign saw the death of one god by an NPC, two deific avatars killed by an NPC, one deific avatar killed by a PC (via an artifact). There were several direct combats against avatars or planar projections of archfiends, and one suckerpunch of an archfiend's true form under extenuating circumstances. :)
Shemeska the Marauder 04-09-07, 07:12 PM	The upcoming "Demonweb Pits" adventure must also invlude killing Lolth or it is not the original conversion of the old 1st edition adventure it should be. It's not a remake of Q1, it's its own planar adventure set in the Abyss and other locations, heavily involving Lolth and several Abyssal Lords.
ripvanwormer 04-09-07, 08:04 PM	I don't think it is meant to be a conversion of the old module. I know for a fact it isn't (because the chief designer said so). Expedition isn't a rehash of or a return to the 1st edition module at all.