Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 08-07-07, 10:29 PM	I'm wondering about Heironeous cultists in a theocracy devoted to Hextor (the Amarid Caliphate). Basically, the traditional way Heironeous-worshippers tend to deal with things is in this type of very straightforward, open manner, like "evildoer, prepare to face me in honorable combat, and may the best man win." If that's how they acted in this theocracy, though, they'd all be dead in five minutes: the Amarid Caliphate has quite a powerful military and a ruthless and effective inquisition. At the same time, I don't want them skulking around in the shadows assassinating people with poisons either, or hiding away and hoping they don't get in trouble. It just doesn't seem very much like how Heironeous cultists to use really underhanded tactics or to be passive. I'm not sure what they'd do then, though. In short, how would they still be honorable, chivalrous Heironeous worshippers, while still being smart and not getting themselves all futiley killed, in circumstances which are very much against them and in which their very beliefs are enough to get them tortured and burnt at the stake?
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-08-07, 12:46 AM	You're going to have a lot of level-headed, LN cultists. They'll be very in control of themselves; they have to hold themselves back if they see an act of evil. Honor might be different; if they lie and stay safe or tell the truth and go to prison, views on morality might be different.
ArcTan 08-08-07, 10:42 PM	The stereotypical "honorable hideout" kind of thing. You know, "pacifist Christians in ancient Rome" kind of deal. You see it in movies and things. Basically, they would keep hidden and carry out their rites and rituals in secret house churches, and any one of them who was in any position of influence would try to do what he could to protect people from unjust punishments, to quietly distribute food among the poor, etc. They wouldn't do assassinations or violent terrorist acts to try to bring down the regime, because that would be becoming like their enemies. Their ethos would be one of quiet waiting -- remaining in the country trying to do what they can to help people, and hoping that their god will come to deliver them soon. They really wouldn't be "passive", though -- they'd be the ones in charge of smuggling people out of the country who wanted to leave, of providing information about the country to the country's good-aligned enemies, etc.
Beau 08-09-07, 12:21 PM	Remember Robin of Locksley (Hood) was a crusader before coming back to a tyrannical regime and starting a rebellion. What are the sources of support outside of the country for the Hieroneans? Are you going to have specific big bad priests/generals of Hextor.....Cardinal Richelieu to the Musketeers kind of thing.......do the Hieroneans have a Secret Service branch....James Bond/Paladin kind of thing, or maybe a few Schindlers. Those kinds of ideas come around for me more than the "christians hiding out in Rome waiting fo their god to make a personal appearance to save them". I guess greyhawk gods do tend to show up in person fairly often though...........
ArcTan 08-09-07, 07:57 PM	The point is that believing in God (or a god) means that you don't believe you are the last line of defense. You don't rationalize betraying your Lawful Good code and becoming bloodthirsty assassins because "There's no other way to stop them!" There's always another way to stop them. Your god will do something sooner or later, whether it's directly, or indirectly through his warfare with Hextor on other planes (eventually weakening his power enough for the theocracy to break down), or by providing some kind of bizarre quest to a wandering band of adventurers. But as long as your god exists there's no reason to lose hope and lose faith -- and there's likewise no *excuse* for betraying your principles just because it's expedient. You can't say that you have to do absolutely everything that can be done to bring down the regime -- because becoming bloodthirsty assassins might grant you more power *now*, temporarily, but ultimately deprives you of your greatest and most important power, your faith.
JulesCARV 08-10-07, 03:04 PM	They really wouldn't be "passive", though -- they'd be the ones in charge of smuggling people out of the country who wanted to leave, of providing information about the country to the country's good-aligned enemies, etc. Thanks. That works pretty well.
Mirtek 08-10-07, 07:04 PM	Note that the core believes article on Heironeus' faith in Dragon said the following: "One must act honorably at all times, as the ends do not justifx the means, but honor does not dictate foolishness - a lone knight against a powerfull demon is not barred from using stealth to find the best position from which to attack. Trickery and outright deception, though, is always unacceptable." Hiding a cult of Heironeous withing a theocracy of Hextor is hard is you are barred from using any trickery.
ArcTan 08-10-07, 08:26 PM	The definition of "trickery" isn't hard and fast. Purposely trying to infiltrate the Church of Hextor and pretending to be a loyal Hextorian priest while trying to bring them down is probably not their MO. They probably, instead, just try to keep their heads down and live normal lives. If someone confronted them and asked "Are you a heretic who serves Heironeous?" they'd probably say "No", but that's not "trickery", that's just not being an idiot.
Millennium 08-10-07, 08:37 PM	Hiding a cult of Heironeous withing a theocracy of Hextor is hard is you are barred from using any trickery. You're not allowed to decieve anyone, that's true, but you're still allowed to avoid being put into a position where you'd have to reveal yourself. This is likely how a cult of Heironeous would work: operating in such secrecy that most people wouldn't even conceive of the possibility that you might be a member. Alternatively, communities of cultists could withdraw from society to the point where they disappear completely; cultists just disappear, and thus stay away from the inquisition by simply not being there. ArcTan has listed some very good possibilities for this. Hidden communities, focused on practicing their faith while staying out of sight, are perhaps the best way that such groups could congregate in large numbers. Catacombs in the style of the early Christians are one possibility; communities hidden in deep forests not unlike Robin Hood's merry men are another. A powerful Heironean mage might even house a small congregation in a permanent Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.
TheHarrow 08-10-07, 09:29 PM	The stereotypical "honorable hideout" kind of thing. You know, "pacifist Christians in ancient Rome" kind of deal. You see it in movies and things. Ah, the christians of ancient rome. Here is your historical example to use for your Hieroneus (sp?) followers. Some good stuff can come of this if you play it right... Also, look up christians in muslim lands. The coptic christians may be a bit much for your scenario, however (in terms of secretivnes (sp? again)). Ofcourse, no one is saying muslims are LE; simply an example of a relegion "hiding out" in another relegion. Saladin rocks!
Millenia 08-11-07, 03:51 PM	My opinion? Superheroes. .... Done laughing? Good. 'Cause I'm serious. Have them study the city, learn who is a true Hextorian, and who only pays lipservice, learn who the bad guys are. And then just have them don masks and costumes, call each other by nicknames, use anti-divination spells (like Nondetection), and have them run off to save the day! Sure, the Hextorians will get angry, but they won't know who did it. And even if they start, like, killing people off randomly, that will bring the populace to side with the Heironean heroes! :D ... They can probably also help secretly train the populace in general in hopes of performing an uprising "soon."
JulesCARV 08-12-07, 08:00 PM	The idea had occurred to me that they would probably avoid mentioning their real names to each other, and might wear scarves over their faces and such as well, so that they would never be able to reveal each others identities if compromised, so they'd be anonymous. Update: Maybe they could even have a creed along the lines of "Anonymous forgives, although anonymous does not forget. Anonymous is full of humanity, mercy, pity, and morality. Anonymous works as one, because no member of anonymous is as compassionate or just as all of anonymous..." Just kidding.