Hellish Hierarchy (revised) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hellish Hierarchy (revised) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlueFlames
02-10-07, 07:45 PM I've always loved the intricacy built into the Baatezu hierarchy presented Faces of Evil. Fiendish Codex II was a bit of a let-down, when the author defaulted to the line, "Higher CR means higher rank! NARF!" I love most of the book, but come on... Let's pay attention to some of the thematic differences between various devils and note that in a plane built upon a foundation of red tape, it's never going to be a linear hierarchy. Rather than just whining on the forums about the lack of a proper revision to the hierarchy, I opted to build the new devils of FCII into the old hierarchy.

http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGrid.png

Those familiar with the old hierarchy will note that this one has an extra branch, on the right. My reasoning was that the middle branch seemed to contain devils meant primarily for defending the Hells against outside incursion and internal betrayal. The new right-hand branch is meant for devils just as apt to be found outside of the Hells, on the attack. On the left are still the specialized soul-stealers, intelligence-gatherers, and commanders. I also opted to remove the Kocrachon, in favor of the Excruciarch, since they exist for essentially the same purpose. Finally, when choosing the 'preferred path of promotion,' I was looking for the route-to-Pit Fiend that would result in the devil having the most purchased souls to his/her/its name.

You know, between this tangled web and my solution to the 64-cog Regulus, I think the lawful planes have given me enough headaches for a while.... Someone hold me back, if I say I'm going to fix WotC's or TSR's logic again.

UPDATE

http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinalThmb.png (http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinal.png)

As promised, I added CR and page reference information. I also decided it needed a background besides bare white, so I did some cut-paste work with WotC's border art and a generic Windows background tile. Unfortunately, that made the image wide enough to fill the role of my new desktop image, so it appears here in thumbnail form. Click the thumbnail for the full shebang.
Romtos
02-10-07, 08:40 PM Nice work here, but I'd like a list of sources for the various devils. This is certainly usable, but that's a bit difficult if I don't have the stats of all devils. :)
General_Ridley
02-10-07, 09:05 PM FC: II:

nuperribo
Xerfilstyx
Spinagon
Abishai
Brachina
Falxugon
Amnizu
Dogai
Malebranche
Orthon
Narzugon
Excruciarch

MM:
Pit Fiend
Osyluth
Lemure
Gelugon
Cornugon
Erinyes
Hamatula
Barbazu

I forget about the Merregon and the Bueroza, but I think Merregon is in FC: II

Hope that helps, Romtos.

Blue, good work.

I just don't think it's convoluted enough quite yet. Maybe throw in a bunch more (like Kytons and such).
BlueFlames
02-10-07, 09:08 PM Every devil in this hierarchy has been most recently printed in either Monster Manual I or Fiendish Codex II. The other books in my library were not nearly as kind to the Baatezu, adding only a few imps, a golem, and an ooze to their ranks. If I decide to go back and pretty things up (which I may well do), I'll be sure to add source and CR info to the chart.
Romtos
02-11-07, 04:26 AM Thanks, General Ridley. :D
Tenebrous_Sage
02-11-07, 08:50 PM One problem, your chart show other devils being promoted to erinyes. According to FCII "Devils are never promoted to erinyes status, but they can be promoted from it to higher ranks." Your chart also seems to be missing pleasure devils.
Witch
02-11-07, 08:52 PM According to FCII "Devils are never promoted to erinyes status, but they can be promoted from it to higher ranks."
I presume he left that out because it doesn't mesh well with established canon.
BlueFlames
02-11-07, 11:19 PM One problem, your chart show other devils being promoted to erinyes. According to FCII "Devils are never promoted to erinyes status, but they can be promoted from it to higher ranks." Your chart also seems to be missing pleasure devils.

Where Faces of Evil and Fiendish Codex II disagreed, I just stuck with FoE. In this case, that meant that Erinyes could be devils elevated from other ranks, rather than those who followed Asmodeous, when he fell. Logic also seems to dictate that Erinyes must be promoted from lower ranking devils, otherwise after a few millenia of the Blood War, your finite, non-replenishing supply of Erinyes would be depleted.

As for the Pleasure Devil, you'll find them under their alternate name, Brachina, one spot directly above Erinyes.
General_Ridley
02-11-07, 11:26 PM Where Faces of Evil and Fiendish Codex II disagreed, I just stuck with FoE. In this case, that meant that Erinyes could be devils elevated from other ranks, rather than those who followed Asmodeous, when he fell. Logic also seems to dictate that Erinyes must be promoted from lower ranking devils, otherwise after a few millenia of the Blood War, your finite, non-replenishing supply of Erinyes would be depleted.

As for the Pleasure Devil, you'll find them under their alternate name, Brachina, one spot directly above Erinyes.

well, FC:II also noted that Erinyes are the only species of devil that breeds true.

just throwing that out there.
Ordbyrht
02-12-07, 01:34 PM well, FC:II also noted that Erinyes are the only species of devil that breeds true.

just throwing that out there.
Again, Faces of Evil and the Fiendish Codex disagree. (Emphasis mine)
Although female baatezu cannot give birth, male baatezu are fully capable of fathering offspring, and their society encourages them to do so - with other races.
There seems to be some exceptions to the rule, as in the case of Bensozia, Asmodeus's deceased consort and the mother of Glasya.
General_Ridley
02-12-07, 05:36 PM naturally, as unique devils are a different matter all together.

excuse my ignorance of what content is presented in Faces of Evil, I've never had the opportunity to read it.
Witch
02-13-07, 02:04 AM excuse my ignorance of what content is presented in Faces of Evil, I've never had the opportunity to read it.
You should do so. It's a very interesting read. Especially the parts written by that slaad.
Andyr
02-13-07, 01:45 PM ^Xanost's style alone makes it worth reading. :)
Mookie37
02-13-07, 03:59 PM This chrt is incredibly helpful, but curse you people that can see all of the colors properly!!:weep:
General_Ridley
02-13-07, 06:04 PM You should do so. It's a very interesting read. Especially the parts written by that slaad.

I plan to.

Just don't know when.
Kain Darkwind
02-15-07, 12:10 PM Nice stuff. I don't see the kocrachon, the ghargatula (both BoVD), nor the logokron (Tome of Magic-true name section) listed. To the best of my knowledge, they are the only 3rd edition devils not mentioned in the FC2.
savant_warlord13
02-20-07, 10:14 PM What exactly is Faces of Evil and where can it be obtained? Is it still in print?
BlueFlames
02-20-07, 10:50 PM Faces of Evil was a late Second Edition supplement for the Planescape setting. I think it's been out of print for a while now, but it should be available on RPGNow.
Taeldrin Laesrash
02-20-07, 10:51 PM Faces of Evil can still be found, albeit in PDF format. Check places like Paizo and RPGNow. Also, I think the Excruciarch is a new name for the kocrachon (Going by name).
BlueFlames
02-21-07, 12:37 PM ...and a bit of a bump for the update.

http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinalThmb.png (http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinal.png)

BAM!
fil kearney
07-22-07, 12:15 PM where do chain devils (kyton) fit in this?
Witch
07-22-07, 12:25 PM They don't - they're outside of Hell's hierarchy and a different society of Baator altogether, if I recall.
Dracomortis
07-22-07, 12:53 PM Nice job. The only devils I can think of that are missing are the logokron devil and the ghargatula, which Kain already mentioned.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-22-07, 12:54 PM They don't - they're outside of Hell's hierarchy and a different society of Baator altogether, if I recall.

Indeed, what Witch said. Kytons aren't baatezu, and the baatezu hierarchy only applies to and contains actual baatezu.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlueFlames 02-10-07, 07:45 PM	I've always loved the intricacy built into the Baatezu hierarchy presented Faces of Evil. Fiendish Codex II was a bit of a let-down, when the author defaulted to the line, "Higher CR means higher rank! NARF!" I love most of the book, but come on... Let's pay attention to some of the thematic differences between various devils and note that in a plane built upon a foundation of red tape, it's never going to be a linear hierarchy. Rather than just whining on the forums about the lack of a proper revision to the hierarchy, I opted to build the new devils of FCII into the old hierarchy. http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGrid.png Those familiar with the old hierarchy will note that this one has an extra branch, on the right. My reasoning was that the middle branch seemed to contain devils meant primarily for defending the Hells against outside incursion and internal betrayal. The new right-hand branch is meant for devils just as apt to be found outside of the Hells, on the attack. On the left are still the specialized soul-stealers, intelligence-gatherers, and commanders. I also opted to remove the Kocrachon, in favor of the Excruciarch, since they exist for essentially the same purpose. Finally, when choosing the 'preferred path of promotion,' I was looking for the route-to-Pit Fiend that would result in the devil having the most purchased souls to his/her/its name. You know, between this tangled web and my solution to the 64-cog Regulus, I think the lawful planes have given me enough headaches for a while.... Someone hold me back, if I say I'm going to fix WotC's or TSR's logic again. UPDATE http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinalThmb.png (http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinal.png) As promised, I added CR and page reference information. I also decided it needed a background besides bare white, so I did some cut-paste work with WotC's border art and a generic Windows background tile. Unfortunately, that made the image wide enough to fill the role of my new desktop image, so it appears here in thumbnail form. Click the thumbnail for the full shebang.
Romtos 02-10-07, 08:40 PM	Nice work here, but I'd like a list of sources for the various devils. This is certainly usable, but that's a bit difficult if I don't have the stats of all devils. :)
General_Ridley 02-10-07, 09:05 PM	FC: II: nuperribo Xerfilstyx Spinagon Abishai Brachina Falxugon Amnizu Dogai Malebranche Orthon Narzugon Excruciarch MM: Pit Fiend Osyluth Lemure Gelugon Cornugon Erinyes Hamatula Barbazu I forget about the Merregon and the Bueroza, but I think Merregon is in FC: II Hope that helps, Romtos. Blue, good work. I just don't think it's convoluted enough quite yet. Maybe throw in a bunch more (like Kytons and such).
BlueFlames 02-10-07, 09:08 PM	Every devil in this hierarchy has been most recently printed in either Monster Manual I or Fiendish Codex II. The other books in my library were not nearly as kind to the Baatezu, adding only a few imps, a golem, and an ooze to their ranks. If I decide to go back and pretty things up (which I may well do), I'll be sure to add source and CR info to the chart.
Romtos 02-11-07, 04:26 AM	Thanks, General Ridley. :D
Tenebrous_Sage 02-11-07, 08:50 PM	One problem, your chart show other devils being promoted to erinyes. According to FCII "Devils are never promoted to erinyes status, but they can be promoted from it to higher ranks." Your chart also seems to be missing pleasure devils.
Witch 02-11-07, 08:52 PM	According to FCII "Devils are never promoted to erinyes status, but they can be promoted from it to higher ranks." I presume he left that out because it doesn't mesh well with established canon.
BlueFlames 02-11-07, 11:19 PM	One problem, your chart show other devils being promoted to erinyes. According to FCII "Devils are never promoted to erinyes status, but they can be promoted from it to higher ranks." Your chart also seems to be missing pleasure devils. Where Faces of Evil and Fiendish Codex II disagreed, I just stuck with FoE. In this case, that meant that Erinyes could be devils elevated from other ranks, rather than those who followed Asmodeous, when he fell. Logic also seems to dictate that Erinyes must be promoted from lower ranking devils, otherwise after a few millenia of the Blood War, your finite, non-replenishing supply of Erinyes would be depleted. As for the Pleasure Devil, you'll find them under their alternate name, Brachina, one spot directly above Erinyes.
General_Ridley 02-11-07, 11:26 PM	Where Faces of Evil and Fiendish Codex II disagreed, I just stuck with FoE. In this case, that meant that Erinyes could be devils elevated from other ranks, rather than those who followed Asmodeous, when he fell. Logic also seems to dictate that Erinyes must be promoted from lower ranking devils, otherwise after a few millenia of the Blood War, your finite, non-replenishing supply of Erinyes would be depleted. As for the Pleasure Devil, you'll find them under their alternate name, Brachina, one spot directly above Erinyes. well, FC:II also noted that Erinyes are the only species of devil that breeds true. just throwing that out there.
Ordbyrht 02-12-07, 01:34 PM	well, FC:II also noted that Erinyes are the only species of devil that breeds true. just throwing that out there. Again, Faces of Evil and the Fiendish Codex disagree. (Emphasis mine) Although female baatezu cannot give birth, male baatezu are fully capable of fathering offspring, and their society encourages them to do so - with other races. There seems to be some exceptions to the rule, as in the case of Bensozia, Asmodeus's deceased consort and the mother of Glasya.
General_Ridley 02-12-07, 05:36 PM	naturally, as unique devils are a different matter all together. excuse my ignorance of what content is presented in Faces of Evil, I've never had the opportunity to read it.
Witch 02-13-07, 02:04 AM	excuse my ignorance of what content is presented in Faces of Evil, I've never had the opportunity to read it. You should do so. It's a very interesting read. Especially the parts written by that slaad.
Andyr 02-13-07, 01:45 PM	^Xanost's style alone makes it worth reading. :)
Mookie37 02-13-07, 03:59 PM	This chrt is incredibly helpful, but curse you people that can see all of the colors properly!!:weep:
General_Ridley 02-13-07, 06:04 PM	You should do so. It's a very interesting read. Especially the parts written by that slaad. I plan to. Just don't know when.
Kain Darkwind 02-15-07, 12:10 PM	Nice stuff. I don't see the kocrachon, the ghargatula (both BoVD), nor the logokron (Tome of Magic-true name section) listed. To the best of my knowledge, they are the only 3rd edition devils not mentioned in the FC2.
savant_warlord13 02-20-07, 10:14 PM	What exactly is Faces of Evil and where can it be obtained? Is it still in print?
BlueFlames 02-20-07, 10:50 PM	Faces of Evil was a late Second Edition supplement for the Planescape setting. I think it's been out of print for a while now, but it should be available on RPGNow.
Taeldrin Laesrash 02-20-07, 10:51 PM	Faces of Evil can still be found, albeit in PDF format. Check places like Paizo and RPGNow. Also, I think the Excruciarch is a new name for the kocrachon (Going by name).
BlueFlames 02-21-07, 12:37 PM	...and a bit of a bump for the update. http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinalThmb.png (http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinal.png) BAM!
fil kearney 07-22-07, 12:15 PM	where do chain devils (kyton) fit in this?
Witch 07-22-07, 12:25 PM	They don't - they're outside of Hell's hierarchy and a different society of Baator altogether, if I recall.
Dracomortis 07-22-07, 12:53 PM	Nice job. The only devils I can think of that are missing are the logokron devil and the ghargatula, which Kain already mentioned.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-22-07, 12:54 PM	They don't - they're outside of Hell's hierarchy and a different society of Baator altogether, if I recall. Indeed, what Witch said. Kytons aren't baatezu, and the baatezu hierarchy only applies to and contains actual baatezu.