HIstory of the gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

HIstory of the gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wishim Clubfoot
07-16-07, 12:45 PM does anyone know where I can get a detailed history of all the gods? Specifically Hextor, and Lolth... but preferably every god... I have alot of influence of the Gods in my campaigns but I don't know a detailed history of them and who they were before they became gods... all that stuff... if anyone could help me out that would be greatly appreciated :D
ripvanwormer
07-16-07, 01:38 PM The core deities have pretty vague histories, for the most part - you'll have to make stuff up, or use fan-created histories. You can read the Wikipedia entry for Heironeous to glean some of Hextor's history. Heironeous and Hextor were half-brothers, the sons of the Shield Mother, Stern Alia. They got along well and protected one another as children, but as they grew older Hextor's jealousy for Heironeous and the gifts he was given by the other gods became overpowering, so he allied himself with the Lords of Evil, who gave him his extra arms so that he could fight as Heironeous' equal. Hextor kidnapped Heironeous' half-angelic daughter, the Chalice, and gave her to Dispater for safekeeping.

Lolth's history is pretty detailed, though. You can see parts of it in Races of the Wild, Drow of the Underdark, and the 2e book Demihuman Deities. She was the elven goddess of fate and weaving, first invited into their midst by Fenmarel Mestarine, who was seduced by her charms despite the warnings of his brother Solonor. Later she became the consort of Corellon himself before betraying them all by luring Corellon to Gruumsh to get killed so she could seize control of the pantheon. When she was discovered, Corellon transformed her into a demon and cast her into the Abyss. Fenmarel was so wracked with guilt that he exiled himself, though the rest of the elven gods didn't blame him. She slowly crawled her way to supremacy over a layer of the Abyss, warring with Zuggtmoy and Zanassu, and once again became a goddess. Of course, the drow sometimes say she was always a spider, and always lived in the Abyss, and it was she who exiled Corellon rather than the other way around.

Most of the core deities were always gods, St. Cuthbert and Vecna excluded. They were born as gods, those which were actually born. Gods like Boccob, Nerull, Corellon Larethian, Moradin, and Pelor probably just formed from primal concepts (or the beliefs of their worshipers) rather than being "born" in any mundane way.
Andyr
07-17-07, 05:19 PM The novel Evermeet includes a description of various events before, during and after Lolth's exile from the Seldarine, too.
narfi78
07-17-07, 08:18 PM Wasn't she a Demon Lord before she was a goddess? If so, why was she ever in the Seldarine?
Drow64
07-17-07, 08:29 PM Wasn't she a Demon Lord before she was a goddess? If so, why was she ever in the Seldarine?

GOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOL THGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOL OLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHG OLOLTH
420
07-17-07, 08:33 PM Wasn't she a Demon Lord before she was a goddess? If so, why was she ever in the Seldarine?

This is Forgotten Realms lore.

Lolth started out as a Seldarine goddess named Araushnee, a consort of Corellon Larethian. Together they bore two children: Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.

After her betrayal, in which she tried to conquer Arvandor, Corellon banished her to the Abyss in the form of a spider demon.

The evil elven race that followed her, the Illythiiri, was also cursed by Corellon and became the drow. After years of spreading her religion to many Material Plane worlds she gained enough worshipers to once again achieve deity status.

-420
Shemeska the Marauder
07-17-07, 09:46 PM This is Forgotten Realms lore.

I wouldn't say that's just FR lore.
The Serge7
07-18-07, 09:00 AM I wouldn't say that's just FR lore.
It was until the retcons to here history over the past edition... Prior, she was always a demon.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-18-07, 10:22 AM It was until the retcons to here history over the past edition... Prior, she was always a demon.

Well, I suppose we'll find out in a month in Dragon how they handle her history in that top 20 D&D villains article. I don't know what it will look like post editorial changes.
Kursk
07-18-07, 03:55 PM Well, I suppose we'll find out in a month in Dragon how they handle her history in that top 20 D&D villains article. I don't know what it will look like post editorial changes.

She was a Demon when she 1st appeared in D&D. This is known by all who have played this game for a long time.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-18-07, 06:43 PM She was a Demon when she 1st appeared in D&D. This is known by all who have played this game for a long time.

I'm well aware that in the earliest material she was a demon and not a deity. This changed later on, as did much of the earliest material on the planes and their inhabitants.
ripvanwormer
07-18-07, 11:42 PM The idea that Lolth was originally a goddess didn't originate in the FR material. To my knowledge it was originally proposed in Dragon #155, where the "dark goddess" who was later known as Lolth was named Megwandir. Megwandir is later mentioned as an alias of Lolth in Demihuman Deities, but it was a Greyhawk name first (as the Dragon article in question, about snow elves, was set in the Crystalmist Mountains of Oerth).

Both Planes of Chaos and On Hallowed Ground treat Lolth as a former member of the Seldarine, although she isn't given an alternative name in either of those sources. On Hallowed Ground is the source of the myth that Lolth seduced Fenmarel Mestarine - in Dragon #155 it had been the god of snow elves, Tarsellis Meunniduin, who she seduced instead.

Evermeet was the first place, I think, where anyone dared make Lolth a former consort of Corellon himself, but this was also mentioned in Races of the Wild. Drow of the Underdark casts some doubt on that idea, but it also treats Lolth as always having been a goddess. Fiendish Codex I was the only source, I think, that suggests she was ever less than a goddess, since in 1st and 2nd edition she was both goddess and demon.
Zousha_Omenohu
07-19-07, 12:23 AM But isn't the belief that Lolth was always a goddess just egotistical drow propaganda? If you want the real story, you're going to have to get it from an uninvolved, unimpeachable third party. Lolth and Corellon both give biased reports of the event, along with the rest of the Seldarine and Gruumsh. What's Moradin's view of the event? Or Garl Glittergold's or Yondalla's?

(Note that these are hypothetical questions, and are just there to emphasize my point.)
caeruleus
07-19-07, 12:34 AM What's Moradin's view of the event? Or Garl Glittergold's or Yondalla's?

They'd also be biased.

Hell, even Boccob could be biased about these things.
ripvanwormer
07-19-07, 02:24 AM But isn't the belief that Lolth was always a goddess just egotistical drow propaganda?

I don't know. I'm inclined to think that if enough people believe in a myth, it's true. Are any gods any more than the sum of their myths?
Sigurd van Norhusen
07-19-07, 07:17 AM Gods are - imo and imc - by necessity mythopoeic aberrations.
The Serge7
07-19-07, 09:46 AM ....since in 1st and 2nd edition she was both goddess and demon.
Which was true for most arch-fiends, like almost all Abyssal Lords (save Pazriel and Graz'zt)... Only the Lords of the Nine didn't receive a clear "divine mandate," although they were roughly equivlent in power to greater gods judging by their avatars.

In other words, Lolth is not unique despite the efforts of many to make her thus. She's a demon that, like most demon nobles, has powers that rival those of gods. Doesn't mean she's a god, though. I remain convinced that the reason she's a god is because folks are afraid to say she's a demon since that would imply demon worship IRL (although how this is any different from worshipping an evil god IRL floors me).
ripvanwormer
07-19-07, 10:52 AM Which was true for most arch-fiends, like almost all Abyssal Lords (save Pazriel and Graz'zt)...

Yes, absolutely. I just mean there wasn't the strict dichotomy between "demon" and "goddess" in previous editions.

I remain convinced that the reason she's a god is because folks are afraid to say she's a demon since that would imply demon worship IRL

No, that's why she became a "tanar'ri." Monster Mythology went to great lengths to emphasize her tanar'ric nature, for example, during TSR's ban on "demons" and "devils." Because there were no "demons" in AD&D from 1991 until 1998, concerns about "demon worship" stopped being an issue. As far as the executives at TSR were concerned, there were no demons in AD&D anymore. It sounds disingenuous that a simple name change would alleviate all such concerns, but that was seriously the thought process, and all the evidence supports that.

She was made a goddess for an entirely different reason - that it's more poetic to make her a fallen member of the Seldarine than it is to make her some random unrelated demon. It's themes from Paradise Lost, which resonate powerfully within us.

It's the same reason that Tim Burton's Batman movie made the Joker kill Batman's parents - because the screenwriter thought it would be more powerful if he has a very personal reason to fight the Joker, rather than having his patricide just be some random thug who was never seen again. Of course, he has other reasons that the Joker is a personal issue for him (because he inadvertently created him in the comics, and because he killed Jason and paralyzed Barbara), and Joe Chill was used very well in Batman Begins, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that it's very tempting for writers to want to connect the force that corrupted the elves more closely to the gods of the elves.

Really, it's probably the reason that George Lucas eventually decided that Darth Vader was Luke's father, despite the somewhat messy retcon that required ("Well, what I really meant was that he killed that part of himself that was your father. That's the ticket.")

I say this not because I'm biased in favor of the fallen Seldarine myth - in fact, I hate the idea that she was ever Corellon's consort, mainly because Corellon is androgynous and doesn't need one. But those are the facts.
caeruleus
07-19-07, 12:32 PM in fact, I hate the idea that she was ever Corellon's consort, mainly because Corellon is androgynous and doesn't need one.

Good, I'm not the only one who thinks this.
420
07-19-07, 03:30 PM I say this not because I'm biased in favor of the fallen Seldarine myth - in fact, I hate the idea that she was ever Corellon's consort, mainly because Corellon is androgynous and doesn't need one.
Surely you're not saying that androgynous people don't need love and companionship!
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0110169/1-1.jpg

-420
ripvanwormer
07-19-07, 03:52 PM Surely you're not saying that androgynous people don't need love and companionship!

Kind of, yeah, when we're discussing creator gods. An androgynous creator god is by definition complete in itself - dualism procedes from it, but its purpose is to reconcile dualism.
ripvanwormer
07-19-07, 03:56 PM Surely you're not saying that androgynous people don't need love and companionship!

Kind of, yeah, when we're discussing creator gods. An androgynous creator god is by definition complete in itself - dualism procedes from it, but its purpose is to reconcile dualism.

Generally speaking, the androgynous creator causes the first couple to come into being, and this couple represents all the dualism that the creator eschews. I can imagine Lolth as the feminine member of the first couple (the masculine one could be Fenmarel Mestarine, or even Sehanine Moonbow if you want to twist her around, which I kind of do).

Of course, elves aren't human and their archetypes might be different. Most of their gods are androgynous to one degree or another, so I suppose they might have a pair of primal androgynes instead of a single one. That kind of avoids the question of the "first cause" that creation myths are ordinarily constructed to explain, however.
Zousha_Omenohu
07-19-07, 05:47 PM "Well, what I really meant was that he killed that part of himself that was your father. That's the ticket."

:heehee It would have been so rich if that was what Obi-Wan actually said in the movie!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wishim Clubfoot 07-16-07, 12:45 PM	does anyone know where I can get a detailed history of all the gods? Specifically Hextor, and Lolth... but preferably every god... I have alot of influence of the Gods in my campaigns but I don't know a detailed history of them and who they were before they became gods... all that stuff... if anyone could help me out that would be greatly appreciated :D
ripvanwormer 07-16-07, 01:38 PM	The core deities have pretty vague histories, for the most part - you'll have to make stuff up, or use fan-created histories. You can read the Wikipedia entry for Heironeous to glean some of Hextor's history. Heironeous and Hextor were half-brothers, the sons of the Shield Mother, Stern Alia. They got along well and protected one another as children, but as they grew older Hextor's jealousy for Heironeous and the gifts he was given by the other gods became overpowering, so he allied himself with the Lords of Evil, who gave him his extra arms so that he could fight as Heironeous' equal. Hextor kidnapped Heironeous' half-angelic daughter, the Chalice, and gave her to Dispater for safekeeping. Lolth's history is pretty detailed, though. You can see parts of it in Races of the Wild, Drow of the Underdark, and the 2e book Demihuman Deities. She was the elven goddess of fate and weaving, first invited into their midst by Fenmarel Mestarine, who was seduced by her charms despite the warnings of his brother Solonor. Later she became the consort of Corellon himself before betraying them all by luring Corellon to Gruumsh to get killed so she could seize control of the pantheon. When she was discovered, Corellon transformed her into a demon and cast her into the Abyss. Fenmarel was so wracked with guilt that he exiled himself, though the rest of the elven gods didn't blame him. She slowly crawled her way to supremacy over a layer of the Abyss, warring with Zuggtmoy and Zanassu, and once again became a goddess. Of course, the drow sometimes say she was always a spider, and always lived in the Abyss, and it was she who exiled Corellon rather than the other way around. Most of the core deities were always gods, St. Cuthbert and Vecna excluded. They were born as gods, those which were actually born. Gods like Boccob, Nerull, Corellon Larethian, Moradin, and Pelor probably just formed from primal concepts (or the beliefs of their worshipers) rather than being "born" in any mundane way.
Andyr 07-17-07, 05:19 PM	The novel Evermeet includes a description of various events before, during and after Lolth's exile from the Seldarine, too.
narfi78 07-17-07, 08:18 PM	Wasn't she a Demon Lord before she was a goddess? If so, why was she ever in the Seldarine?
Drow64 07-17-07, 08:29 PM	Wasn't she a Demon Lord before she was a goddess? If so, why was she ever in the Seldarine? GOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOL THGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOL OLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHGOLOLTHG OLOLTH
420 07-17-07, 08:33 PM	Wasn't she a Demon Lord before she was a goddess? If so, why was she ever in the Seldarine? This is Forgotten Realms lore. Lolth started out as a Seldarine goddess named Araushnee, a consort of Corellon Larethian. Together they bore two children: Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. After her betrayal, in which she tried to conquer Arvandor, Corellon banished her to the Abyss in the form of a spider demon. The evil elven race that followed her, the Illythiiri, was also cursed by Corellon and became the drow. After years of spreading her religion to many Material Plane worlds she gained enough worshipers to once again achieve deity status. -420
Shemeska the Marauder 07-17-07, 09:46 PM	This is Forgotten Realms lore. I wouldn't say that's just FR lore.
The Serge7 07-18-07, 09:00 AM	I wouldn't say that's just FR lore. It was until the retcons to here history over the past edition... Prior, she was always a demon.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-18-07, 10:22 AM	It was until the retcons to here history over the past edition... Prior, she was always a demon. Well, I suppose we'll find out in a month in Dragon how they handle her history in that top 20 D&D villains article. I don't know what it will look like post editorial changes.
Kursk 07-18-07, 03:55 PM	Well, I suppose we'll find out in a month in Dragon how they handle her history in that top 20 D&D villains article. I don't know what it will look like post editorial changes. She was a Demon when she 1st appeared in D&D. This is known by all who have played this game for a long time.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-18-07, 06:43 PM	She was a Demon when she 1st appeared in D&D. This is known by all who have played this game for a long time. I'm well aware that in the earliest material she was a demon and not a deity. This changed later on, as did much of the earliest material on the planes and their inhabitants.
ripvanwormer 07-18-07, 11:42 PM	The idea that Lolth was originally a goddess didn't originate in the FR material. To my knowledge it was originally proposed in Dragon #155, where the "dark goddess" who was later known as Lolth was named Megwandir. Megwandir is later mentioned as an alias of Lolth in Demihuman Deities, but it was a Greyhawk name first (as the Dragon article in question, about snow elves, was set in the Crystalmist Mountains of Oerth). Both Planes of Chaos and On Hallowed Ground treat Lolth as a former member of the Seldarine, although she isn't given an alternative name in either of those sources. On Hallowed Ground is the source of the myth that Lolth seduced Fenmarel Mestarine - in Dragon #155 it had been the god of snow elves, Tarsellis Meunniduin, who she seduced instead. Evermeet was the first place, I think, where anyone dared make Lolth a former consort of Corellon himself, but this was also mentioned in Races of the Wild. Drow of the Underdark casts some doubt on that idea, but it also treats Lolth as always having been a goddess. Fiendish Codex I was the only source, I think, that suggests she was ever less than a goddess, since in 1st and 2nd edition she was both goddess and demon.
Zousha_Omenohu 07-19-07, 12:23 AM	But isn't the belief that Lolth was always a goddess just egotistical drow propaganda? If you want the real story, you're going to have to get it from an uninvolved, unimpeachable third party. Lolth and Corellon both give biased reports of the event, along with the rest of the Seldarine and Gruumsh. What's Moradin's view of the event? Or Garl Glittergold's or Yondalla's? (Note that these are hypothetical questions, and are just there to emphasize my point.)
caeruleus 07-19-07, 12:34 AM	What's Moradin's view of the event? Or Garl Glittergold's or Yondalla's? They'd also be biased. Hell, even Boccob could be biased about these things.
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 02:24 AM	But isn't the belief that Lolth was always a goddess just egotistical drow propaganda? I don't know. I'm inclined to think that if enough people believe in a myth, it's true. Are any gods any more than the sum of their myths?
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-19-07, 07:17 AM	Gods are - imo and imc - by necessity mythopoeic aberrations.
The Serge7 07-19-07, 09:46 AM	....since in 1st and 2nd edition she was both goddess and demon. Which was true for most arch-fiends, like almost all Abyssal Lords (save Pazriel and Graz'zt)... Only the Lords of the Nine didn't receive a clear "divine mandate," although they were roughly equivlent in power to greater gods judging by their avatars. In other words, Lolth is not unique despite the efforts of many to make her thus. She's a demon that, like most demon nobles, has powers that rival those of gods. Doesn't mean she's a god, though. I remain convinced that the reason she's a god is because folks are afraid to say she's a demon since that would imply demon worship IRL (although how this is any different from worshipping an evil god IRL floors me).
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 10:52 AM	Which was true for most arch-fiends, like almost all Abyssal Lords (save Pazriel and Graz'zt)... Yes, absolutely. I just mean there wasn't the strict dichotomy between "demon" and "goddess" in previous editions. I remain convinced that the reason she's a god is because folks are afraid to say she's a demon since that would imply demon worship IRL No, that's why she became a "tanar'ri." Monster Mythology went to great lengths to emphasize her tanar'ric nature, for example, during TSR's ban on "demons" and "devils." Because there were no "demons" in AD&D from 1991 until 1998, concerns about "demon worship" stopped being an issue. As far as the executives at TSR were concerned, there were no demons in AD&D anymore. It sounds disingenuous that a simple name change would alleviate all such concerns, but that was seriously the thought process, and all the evidence supports that. She was made a goddess for an entirely different reason - that it's more poetic to make her a fallen member of the Seldarine than it is to make her some random unrelated demon. It's themes from Paradise Lost, which resonate powerfully within us. It's the same reason that Tim Burton's Batman movie made the Joker kill Batman's parents - because the screenwriter thought it would be more powerful if he has a very personal reason to fight the Joker, rather than having his patricide just be some random thug who was never seen again. Of course, he has other reasons that the Joker is a personal issue for him (because he inadvertently created him in the comics, and because he killed Jason and paralyzed Barbara), and Joe Chill was used very well in Batman Begins, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that it's very tempting for writers to want to connect the force that corrupted the elves more closely to the gods of the elves. Really, it's probably the reason that George Lucas eventually decided that Darth Vader was Luke's father, despite the somewhat messy retcon that required ("Well, what I really meant was that he killed that part of himself that was your father. That's the ticket.") I say this not because I'm biased in favor of the fallen Seldarine myth - in fact, I hate the idea that she was ever Corellon's consort, mainly because Corellon is androgynous and doesn't need one. But those are the facts.
caeruleus 07-19-07, 12:32 PM	in fact, I hate the idea that she was ever Corellon's consort, mainly because Corellon is androgynous and doesn't need one. Good, I'm not the only one who thinks this.
420 07-19-07, 03:30 PM	I say this not because I'm biased in favor of the fallen Seldarine myth - in fact, I hate the idea that she was ever Corellon's consort, mainly because Corellon is androgynous and doesn't need one. Surely you're not saying that androgynous people don't need love and companionship! http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0110169/1-1.jpg -420
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 03:52 PM	Surely you're not saying that androgynous people don't need love and companionship! Kind of, yeah, when we're discussing creator gods. An androgynous creator god is by definition complete in itself - dualism procedes from it, but its purpose is to reconcile dualism.
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 03:56 PM	Surely you're not saying that androgynous people don't need love and companionship! Kind of, yeah, when we're discussing creator gods. An androgynous creator god is by definition complete in itself - dualism procedes from it, but its purpose is to reconcile dualism. Generally speaking, the androgynous creator causes the first couple to come into being, and this couple represents all the dualism that the creator eschews. I can imagine Lolth as the feminine member of the first couple (the masculine one could be Fenmarel Mestarine, or even Sehanine Moonbow if you want to twist her around, which I kind of do). Of course, elves aren't human and their archetypes might be different. Most of their gods are androgynous to one degree or another, so I suppose they might have a pair of primal androgynes instead of a single one. That kind of avoids the question of the "first cause" that creation myths are ordinarily constructed to explain, however.
Zousha_Omenohu 07-19-07, 05:47 PM	"Well, what I really meant was that he killed that part of himself that was your father. That's the ticket." :heehee It would have been so rich if that was what Obi-Wan actually said in the movie!