How are lemures and larva created? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How are lemures and larva created? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gravenhurst
04-25-08, 01:30 AM How does a larva/lemures become currency? I've heard of the Breeding Pits in Hell, as an example of changing souls into larva. What else?

How can fiends or yugoloths steal souls from a deities Godly realm? If a deity grants a souls True Afterlife by becoming a petitioner, for example, wouldn't a god be invested enough to know when one goes missing? or does he send a proxy to settle the return of a soul?

Can petitioners be harvested for a soul?

How do souls get taken from Hades or Charon the Boat keeper?

Do larva/lemures have souls? Are they souls just wrapped into a bundle of goo or worm substance, making it possible to save them from their fate of becoming a fiend (no souls) or part of a vile ritual (thus destroyed)?

In fact, when or where officially, do souls first go when they die? Do they all just appear on their aligned plane? Do they just wander around till a deity senses a worshippers souls?

Is it the ritual that inters a body that creates the process of becoming a soul, or does it wander around on the planes of choice till picked up by someone who cares? This would explain the chance of raising them for good, and animating them for evil? For example, once a body is buried and a priest sanctifies the body, the souls is released from the body and begins its travels toward his final resting place? those that are left rotting away somewhere from being murdered the soul is trapped on the ethereal plane until released properly. Evil gods must think this way sucks because most evil people wouldn't take the time of day to reincarnate their evil dude! But is it then balanced by the ability to create undead?
zook1shoe666
04-25-08, 10:45 AM good question. i would love to know too ;)
Damned slayer
04-25-08, 11:39 AM Souls that goes to abyss or hell are "reincarnated" in their proper petitioner
check fiendish codex the section about promoting/demoting demons/devils (probably more info in devil that's FC2)
or people that sold their soul to evil lords
zook1shoe666
04-25-08, 12:13 PM Souls that goes to abyss or hell are "reincarnated" in their proper petitioner
check fiendish codex the section about promoting/demoting demons/devils (probably more info in devil that's FC2)
or people that sold their soul to evil lords

i know that.... i didn't see either go any farther in-depth into it though.
Bojangles_the_Barbarian
04-25-08, 02:07 PM It was only after several minutes of questioning to myself "What the hell are they babbling on about?" that I realized this was not about real life lemurs and larva. Wow... Who needs another cup of coffee? That's right, I do.
vampymage
04-25-08, 05:23 PM How are lemures and larva created?

Well when two devils hate each other less then they hate the rest of creation they get together and after filling out many different forms, in triplicate, filing them with the proper hellish offices and receiving permission from their direct superior,then well... you know...
Shemeska the Marauder
04-26-08, 02:02 AM How does a larva/lemures become currency? I've heard of the Breeding Pits in Hell, as an example of changing souls into larva. What else?

Larvae are a default form of petitioner in many of the evil planes. They manifest spontaneously as a new evil soul arrives in those planes; that's the initial form many of them take. Other petitioners (depending on their level of evil, etc) may initially manifest much as they appeared in life, or they might skip right into being a lemure or dretch (depending on plane).

The Breeding Pits in Hell transform larvae and more mortal looking petitioners into lemures, through a process probably best left undescribed. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif

How can fiends or yugoloths steal souls from a deities Godly realm? If a deity grants a souls True Afterlife by becoming a petitioner, for example, wouldn't a god be invested enough to know when one goes missing? or does he send a proxy to settle the return of a soul?

Well, fiends probably don't steal directly from a deity's deific realm all that often. They snipe souls in transit to those realms, they collect them as they manifest upon one of the lower planes at large (many/most petitioners don't appear within a specific god's deific realm), or they buy them from beings like night hags who collect them for resale like errant cattle.

A god probably is aware if a petitioner who "belongs" to them (for lack of a better word) is stolen, or removed from their deific domain. However archfiends and similar beings are in all likelyhood capable of blocking a god from knowing precisely where such a soul is, or they're powerful enough to make a god come to the bargaining table rather than attempt to seize it (though sending proxies or servitors to steal it back seems appropriate; you wouldn't see Thor appearing before Orcus to directly fight him for a soul, because that would be suicidal). Soul theft goes on, god's try to prevent it, and usually things are solved by diplomacy or a second round of theft to get such things back.

Also, gods themselves don't have any role in granting a petitioner its status as such in the planes/afterlife. Petitioners would manifest on the planes even if no gods were there to collect them (and in fact petitioners were doing that prior to gods existing out on the planes).

Can petitioners be harvested for a soul?

Petitioners -are- souls. Just a specific baseline form souls might take in the outer planes/afterlife.

How do souls get taken from Hades or Charon the Boat keeper?

As a yugoloth lord, Charon is more than willing to sell for the right price.

Do larva/lemures have souls? Are they souls just wrapped into a bundle of goo or worm substance, making it possible to save them from their fate of becoming a fiend (no souls) or part of a vile ritual (thus destroyed)?

Like all petitioners (larvae/lemures/dretches/etc are just a specific and special form of petitioner) they -are- souls. It's probably possible to magically convert a soul in that form to a different form (since demons and devils take neutral evil larvae from Hades and convert them into CE or LE fiends for instance).

Souls in Hades that aren't claimed by Charon (or other unique 'loths) are, for the most part, free for the taking. Night Hags collect and sell them, the yugoloths eat/torture/experiment upon them (since they don't use petitioners to make more of themselves), and if you let them sit around long enough they become hordelings (and eventually a rare few of those become night hags).

In fact, when or where officially, do souls first go when they die? Do they all just appear on their aligned plane? Do they just wander around till a deity senses a worshippers souls?

They migrate through the Astral plane, and eventually they manifest on the plane which most matches their alignment. However if they're bound to a specific deity, they'll migrate to that god's domain (or in some instances, they'll be collected by servitors of that god once they arrive in the plane it makes its deific home upon).

Is it the ritual that inters a body that creates the process of becoming a soul, or does it wander around on the planes of choice till picked up by someone who cares? This would explain the chance of raising them for good, and animating them for evil? For example, once a body is buried and a priest sanctifies the body, the souls is released from the body and begins its travels toward his final resting place? those that are left rotting away somewhere from being murdered the soul is trapped on the ethereal plane until released properly. Evil gods must think this way sucks because most evil people wouldn't take the time of day to reincarnate their evil dude! But is it then balanced by the ability to create undead?

You could presume the soul sticks around for a few days before migrating through the Astral, but there's no hard answer there.

Now a petitioner that has not merged with its plane or deity, or been destroyed or turned into a "higher" form of outsider (be that a celestial, fiend, etc) can be magically coaxed back to return to its body (raise dead etc). Usually that's a DM's call if that has happened or not, but it's usually safe to assume it's possible on a case by case basis.
ripvanwormer
04-26-08, 09:27 AM After dying, a soul sees a "tunnel of light" - this is an Astral conduit, which is something like a big silver tube (sometimes described as a whirlwind) winds through the Astral Plane, connecting the Material Plane with the Outer Planes. They're normally invisible from the Material Plane side, but they're detectable with magic, and disembodied souls can see them.

The soul travels through the conduit, which is usually guarded by a spirit of the Astral Plane, who will take on a shape such as a cowled skeleton, an angel, a jackal-headed human, or other archetypal form. They let souls pass by unmolested, but will act if githyanki or whatever try to interfere with the conduit.

In the Nine Hells, souls appear in the form of larvae in "birthing orifices" such as the Maggot Pit near Tiamat's lair. Fiendish Codex II revised this to have them appear in humanoid form on a rock in the River Styx, where devils collect them and torture them until they become mindless lumps of psychoplasmic goo - that is to say, lemures. The Maggot Pit in this more recent version is the final torment that transforms exhausted and beaten soulshells into lemures, the maggots writhing into the exhausted petitioner's body and liquefying its bones.

In the Abyss, souls appear as larvae on the Plane of Infinite Portals, where they are collected by babau and other tanar'ri and brought to various demon lords. Many are brought to the layer of Woeful Escarond, where they are "judged" by capricious nalfeshnee ministers, who select new forms for them - manes, dretch, or higher - based on their own mad criteria. Those larvae who are left alone will evolve naturally into manes in a comparatively short time.

In the Gray Waste, souls appear as larvae, where they are collected by night hags and sold to fiends and liches, or used to transform adolescent night hags into their mature form. Those who go uncollected could writhe in the dust forever, though those who manage to retain great personality and will eventually evolve into hordlings.

On other planes, larvae are generally not the default form, and petitioners will generally appear as they did in life, with some alterations. In Limbo, petitioners appear as abstract shapes and colors. In Pandemonium, petitioners are hairless, and have claws capable of digging into the rock to prevent them from being blown away. In the Seven Heavens of Celestia, petitioners are lantern archons.

If a soul had a particular patron deity in life, the soul will travel to that deity's realm, regardless of their alignment. Generally they're safe from being captured by fiends at that point - most fiends know better than to mess with a god in their own realm.
zook1shoe666
04-26-08, 10:01 AM incredible job Shemmy and Rip :) thanx.

what are hordelings?
ripvanwormer
04-27-08, 09:26 AM what are hordelings?

Hordlings are the uncounted hordes of the Gray Waste (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=10315). They originally appeared in the 1st edition Monster Manual II, and were reprinted in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I, and Dungeon Magazine #124.
zook1shoe666
04-27-08, 10:34 PM Hordlings are the uncounted hordes of the Gray Waste (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=10315). They originally appeared in the 1st edition Monster Manual II, and were reprinted in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I, and Dungeon Magazine #124.

they werent redone for 3.x in anything but the Dung#124?
Shemeska the Marauder
04-27-08, 10:50 PM they werent redone for 3.x in anything but the Dung#124?

Nope. WotC never exactly got around to touching quite a few planar monsters during the 3.x tenure. Based on previews, any 4.x attempts might not resemble the same monster. *mildly jaded*
zook1shoe666
04-27-08, 11:12 PM Nope. WotC never exactly got around to touching quite a few planar monsters during the 3.x tenure. Based on previews, any 4.x attempts might not resemble the same monster. *mildly jaded*

understandable. they are trying to devote their time to the new edition. *looks* looks like i dont own #123. i can prob buy one online for cheap, when i get the money/time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gravenhurst 04-25-08, 01:30 AM	How does a larva/lemures become currency? I've heard of the Breeding Pits in Hell, as an example of changing souls into larva. What else? How can fiends or yugoloths steal souls from a deities Godly realm? If a deity grants a souls True Afterlife by becoming a petitioner, for example, wouldn't a god be invested enough to know when one goes missing? or does he send a proxy to settle the return of a soul? Can petitioners be harvested for a soul? How do souls get taken from Hades or Charon the Boat keeper? Do larva/lemures have souls? Are they souls just wrapped into a bundle of goo or worm substance, making it possible to save them from their fate of becoming a fiend (no souls) or part of a vile ritual (thus destroyed)? In fact, when or where officially, do souls first go when they die? Do they all just appear on their aligned plane? Do they just wander around till a deity senses a worshippers souls? Is it the ritual that inters a body that creates the process of becoming a soul, or does it wander around on the planes of choice till picked up by someone who cares? This would explain the chance of raising them for good, and animating them for evil? For example, once a body is buried and a priest sanctifies the body, the souls is released from the body and begins its travels toward his final resting place? those that are left rotting away somewhere from being murdered the soul is trapped on the ethereal plane until released properly. Evil gods must think this way sucks because most evil people wouldn't take the time of day to reincarnate their evil dude! But is it then balanced by the ability to create undead?
zook1shoe666 04-25-08, 10:45 AM	good question. i would love to know too ;)
Damned slayer 04-25-08, 11:39 AM	Souls that goes to abyss or hell are "reincarnated" in their proper petitioner check fiendish codex the section about promoting/demoting demons/devils (probably more info in devil that's FC2) or people that sold their soul to evil lords
zook1shoe666 04-25-08, 12:13 PM	Souls that goes to abyss or hell are "reincarnated" in their proper petitioner check fiendish codex the section about promoting/demoting demons/devils (probably more info in devil that's FC2) or people that sold their soul to evil lords i know that.... i didn't see either go any farther in-depth into it though.
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 04-25-08, 02:07 PM	It was only after several minutes of questioning to myself "What the hell are they babbling on about?" that I realized this was not about real life lemurs and larva. Wow... Who needs another cup of coffee? That's right, I do.
vampymage 04-25-08, 05:23 PM	How are lemures and larva created? Well when two devils hate each other less then they hate the rest of creation they get together and after filling out many different forms, in triplicate, filing them with the proper hellish offices and receiving permission from their direct superior,then well... you know...
Shemeska the Marauder 04-26-08, 02:02 AM	How does a larva/lemures become currency? I've heard of the Breeding Pits in Hell, as an example of changing souls into larva. What else? Larvae are a default form of petitioner in many of the evil planes. They manifest spontaneously as a new evil soul arrives in those planes; that's the initial form many of them take. Other petitioners (depending on their level of evil, etc) may initially manifest much as they appeared in life, or they might skip right into being a lemure or dretch (depending on plane). The Breeding Pits in Hell transform larvae and more mortal looking petitioners into lemures, through a process probably best left undescribed. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif How can fiends or yugoloths steal souls from a deities Godly realm? If a deity grants a souls True Afterlife by becoming a petitioner, for example, wouldn't a god be invested enough to know when one goes missing? or does he send a proxy to settle the return of a soul? Well, fiends probably don't steal directly from a deity's deific realm all that often. They snipe souls in transit to those realms, they collect them as they manifest upon one of the lower planes at large (many/most petitioners don't appear within a specific god's deific realm), or they buy them from beings like night hags who collect them for resale like errant cattle. A god probably is aware if a petitioner who "belongs" to them (for lack of a better word) is stolen, or removed from their deific domain. However archfiends and similar beings are in all likelyhood capable of blocking a god from knowing precisely where such a soul is, or they're powerful enough to make a god come to the bargaining table rather than attempt to seize it (though sending proxies or servitors to steal it back seems appropriate; you wouldn't see Thor appearing before Orcus to directly fight him for a soul, because that would be suicidal). Soul theft goes on, god's try to prevent it, and usually things are solved by diplomacy or a second round of theft to get such things back. Also, gods themselves don't have any role in granting a petitioner its status as such in the planes/afterlife. Petitioners would manifest on the planes even if no gods were there to collect them (and in fact petitioners were doing that prior to gods existing out on the planes). Can petitioners be harvested for a soul? Petitioners -are- souls. Just a specific baseline form souls might take in the outer planes/afterlife. How do souls get taken from Hades or Charon the Boat keeper? As a yugoloth lord, Charon is more than willing to sell for the right price. Do larva/lemures have souls? Are they souls just wrapped into a bundle of goo or worm substance, making it possible to save them from their fate of becoming a fiend (no souls) or part of a vile ritual (thus destroyed)? Like all petitioners (larvae/lemures/dretches/etc are just a specific and special form of petitioner) they -are- souls. It's probably possible to magically convert a soul in that form to a different form (since demons and devils take neutral evil larvae from Hades and convert them into CE or LE fiends for instance). Souls in Hades that aren't claimed by Charon (or other unique 'loths) are, for the most part, free for the taking. Night Hags collect and sell them, the yugoloths eat/torture/experiment upon them (since they don't use petitioners to make more of themselves), and if you let them sit around long enough they become hordelings (and eventually a rare few of those become night hags). In fact, when or where officially, do souls first go when they die? Do they all just appear on their aligned plane? Do they just wander around till a deity senses a worshippers souls? They migrate through the Astral plane, and eventually they manifest on the plane which most matches their alignment. However if they're bound to a specific deity, they'll migrate to that god's domain (or in some instances, they'll be collected by servitors of that god once they arrive in the plane it makes its deific home upon). Is it the ritual that inters a body that creates the process of becoming a soul, or does it wander around on the planes of choice till picked up by someone who cares? This would explain the chance of raising them for good, and animating them for evil? For example, once a body is buried and a priest sanctifies the body, the souls is released from the body and begins its travels toward his final resting place? those that are left rotting away somewhere from being murdered the soul is trapped on the ethereal plane until released properly. Evil gods must think this way sucks because most evil people wouldn't take the time of day to reincarnate their evil dude! But is it then balanced by the ability to create undead? You could presume the soul sticks around for a few days before migrating through the Astral, but there's no hard answer there. Now a petitioner that has not merged with its plane or deity, or been destroyed or turned into a "higher" form of outsider (be that a celestial, fiend, etc) can be magically coaxed back to return to its body (raise dead etc). Usually that's a DM's call if that has happened or not, but it's usually safe to assume it's possible on a case by case basis.
ripvanwormer 04-26-08, 09:27 AM	After dying, a soul sees a "tunnel of light" - this is an Astral conduit, which is something like a big silver tube (sometimes described as a whirlwind) winds through the Astral Plane, connecting the Material Plane with the Outer Planes. They're normally invisible from the Material Plane side, but they're detectable with magic, and disembodied souls can see them. The soul travels through the conduit, which is usually guarded by a spirit of the Astral Plane, who will take on a shape such as a cowled skeleton, an angel, a jackal-headed human, or other archetypal form. They let souls pass by unmolested, but will act if githyanki or whatever try to interfere with the conduit. In the Nine Hells, souls appear in the form of larvae in "birthing orifices" such as the Maggot Pit near Tiamat's lair. Fiendish Codex II revised this to have them appear in humanoid form on a rock in the River Styx, where devils collect them and torture them until they become mindless lumps of psychoplasmic goo - that is to say, lemures. The Maggot Pit in this more recent version is the final torment that transforms exhausted and beaten soulshells into lemures, the maggots writhing into the exhausted petitioner's body and liquefying its bones. In the Abyss, souls appear as larvae on the Plane of Infinite Portals, where they are collected by babau and other tanar'ri and brought to various demon lords. Many are brought to the layer of Woeful Escarond, where they are "judged" by capricious nalfeshnee ministers, who select new forms for them - manes, dretch, or higher - based on their own mad criteria. Those larvae who are left alone will evolve naturally into manes in a comparatively short time. In the Gray Waste, souls appear as larvae, where they are collected by night hags and sold to fiends and liches, or used to transform adolescent night hags into their mature form. Those who go uncollected could writhe in the dust forever, though those who manage to retain great personality and will eventually evolve into hordlings. On other planes, larvae are generally not the default form, and petitioners will generally appear as they did in life, with some alterations. In Limbo, petitioners appear as abstract shapes and colors. In Pandemonium, petitioners are hairless, and have claws capable of digging into the rock to prevent them from being blown away. In the Seven Heavens of Celestia, petitioners are lantern archons. If a soul had a particular patron deity in life, the soul will travel to that deity's realm, regardless of their alignment. Generally they're safe from being captured by fiends at that point - most fiends know better than to mess with a god in their own realm.
zook1shoe666 04-26-08, 10:01 AM	incredible job Shemmy and Rip :) thanx. what are hordelings?
ripvanwormer 04-27-08, 09:26 AM	what are hordelings? Hordlings are the uncounted hordes of the Gray Waste (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=10315). They originally appeared in the 1st edition Monster Manual II, and were reprinted in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I, and Dungeon Magazine #124.
zook1shoe666 04-27-08, 10:34 PM	Hordlings are the uncounted hordes of the Gray Waste (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=10315). They originally appeared in the 1st edition Monster Manual II, and were reprinted in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I, and Dungeon Magazine #124. they werent redone for 3.x in anything but the Dung#124?
Shemeska the Marauder 04-27-08, 10:50 PM	they werent redone for 3.x in anything but the Dung#124? Nope. WotC never exactly got around to touching quite a few planar monsters during the 3.x tenure. Based on previews, any 4.x attempts might not resemble the same monster. mildly jaded
zook1shoe666 04-27-08, 11:12 PM	Nope. WotC never exactly got around to touching quite a few planar monsters during the 3.x tenure. Based on previews, any 4.x attempts might not resemble the same monster. mildly jaded understandable. they are trying to devote their time to the new edition. looks looks like i dont own #123. i can prob buy one online for cheap, when i get the money/time.