Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Biolyticclod 09-06-07, 09:38 AM	I've made the steps that I think could actually trap a demigod:P ... but now I'm kinda stuck. You see... I dont think now that the demigod is just a demi god but a lessor deity... because I've witnessed the "demigod" use enough SAs to be a lessor god... Well... How does one go about killing a deity without being a deity yourself?:confused: Could you make a godslayer item? or do you think it really just lies in the hands of my douche bag DM whom I assume just doesn't quite grasp the idea of pitting PCs against GODS...:mad:
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-06-07, 09:40 AM	The latter. You shouldn't really be fighting gods unless it's an important plot point. They should wipe the floor with you in a round or two. Godkilling items aren't statted, and are more plot device that game mechanic.
LeuktheSavior 09-06-07, 09:47 AM	I personally enjoy demiplanes that cut away deific powers. I think the best way to deal with it would be to talk to a Deity of a higher rank, and see if it could asist you. It would make a deific plane, sacrificing some of its divine ranks equal to the amount of ranks the lesser deity has, and you would have to lure said lesser god into the plane, where its divine ranks would be nulled by the other gods divine ranks, and from there...well, you still have one hell of a battle ahead of you.
LeuktheSavior 09-06-07, 10:02 AM	i suppose an important note about the higher ranked deity is that it can regain its powers simply by absorbing the plane back into itself. its a temporary loss for it.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-06-07, 10:02 AM	This is a consequence of D&D's writing everything's stats...
setekh 09-06-07, 10:19 AM	This is a consequence of D&D's writing everything's stats... You seen a deitys stats? Sure, 20 here, 40 there not THAT impressive. the 30D12 across Fourteen miles hitting seventy targets simeltaneously? Thats a bit impressive, and far more than any human could ever hope to beat. Remember, at 8th level you are already above and beyond mortal standards.
Sunblast 09-06-07, 10:22 AM	Yeah, no one should really have to face a god. There's a reason they have clerics, paladins, and just worshippers in general. They don't tend to directly interfere with mortals unless there's a dang good reason. This is a consequence of D&D's writing everything's stats... I made a suggestion to our DM along these lines. Simply put, the gods can be killed (not bloody likely, though). However, their boss, Diem (Pronounced "Die-Em" to throw people off) the overgod, cannot. Diem is basically God with the uppercase G. No need to stat him/her (her, in our game :love:) as Diem is, in fact, all powerful. I'm pretty sure our DM went with this, too, but there's no way to know for sure. After all, Diem would be completely unheard of by mortals and, perhaps, immortals alike.
Majick 09-06-07, 10:41 AM	How to kill a god... Pandora's Box? (God of War anyone?) :D
CCS 09-06-07, 10:43 AM	You don't. Or at least you shouldn't be able to.
Ornum 09-06-07, 10:50 AM	Well, there's always the Last Word. That would do it every time. The problem, of course, is the fact that a mortal's mind would melt while trying to learn it.
Bloodsoul 09-06-07, 11:12 AM	Just, erm.. find some really, really weak god and kill it, absorb it's powers, then become deities yourself? Sadly, that's what happened in our campaign. "Here, little Imhotep.. we've got a bright, shiny new temple for you to, er, bless. <.< >.>"
NASCAR_1080i 09-06-07, 11:35 AM	... "Here, little Imhotep.. we've got a bright, shiny new temple for you to, er, bless. <.< >.>" thats so wrong ... so very wrong ... I LIKES IT!!!
AlanBruce 09-06-07, 11:36 AM	Why is it that everyone now wishes to run a god through? Don't people understand that gods are what they are because they trascend mortal ken? To defy a god is the ultimate blasphemy, and it will be taken notice by the deity's clergy and worshippers all over. So before you think about arming yourself to fight him/her, expect to face his entire Faith of followers. Seriously, the difference is abbyssmal. A bunch of ants can't fight a lion, and that's exactly what mortals (even the epic ones) are to Gods - ants. There are so many great plothooks in the mortal realm... why aim for the impossible and foolish?
Biolyticclod 09-06-07, 12:18 PM	All of your replies are valid points... And it's not high on my "things I'm trying to do in game" list... It's that our DM for one reason or another has made the main enemy of the game a god... and the secondary baddie... a demigod trying to raise an army of followers from the dead to RE-gain his divine rank... It's a pretty pointless game in my eyes... :mad: I mean how do you kill a god.... Seriously. :weep: I maight try to take the power of a demigod as suggested above... there are plenty of them in his campaign world. And as I've devised a plan to trap and kill demmigods... I could try to utilize this to absorb their power.... But how does one go about doing that? Absorb a demigods power I mean....:confused:
Yue Ryong 09-06-07, 12:33 PM	Well, when it came up in our game, we spent seven years (ok, it was only seven years when we came back, for us it was about a month) hunting across the planes for a specific plot-poi... I mean poison that would rob them of their godhood first, then we unloaded a bunch of high-damage effects into it for two rounds until it failed a save versus massive damage. Great Wyrm God-Dragons are nasty. Apparantly not as nasty as us, as none of us took any damage in the entire exchange and lopped off half of it's Hp in the first hit (yay max-damage super-crits with obscene smite evil & Sneak attack thrown on top). But yeah, first find something to stop them being a god.
Ornum 09-06-07, 01:23 PM	Or make him forget he was a god in the first place so that he doesn't know how to use some (or all) of his abilities. Maybe a little trickery with some water from the Styx? Not even sure if that works on a god, to be honest. Edit: If it could work, it would probably take total emersion, so good luck with that.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-06-07, 01:46 PM	You seen a deitys stats? Sure, 20 here, 40 there not THAT impressive. the 30D12 across Fourteen miles hitting seventy targets simeltaneously? Thats a bit impressive, and far more than any human could ever hope to beat. Remember, at 8th level you are already above and beyond mortal standards. So? If no Human could ever hope to beat it, that makes even more useless to stat the Gods... By "stat" I mean everything, not just Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha...
jacob22 09-06-07, 01:56 PM	Depends on the setting. My campaign rules to kill a god you must ensure there is no living worshipper of the god. Just about impossible, yes. Or, of course another god kills them and takes their portfolio.
Myers 09-06-07, 02:31 PM	Well isn't divine rank determined by number of followers, if you kill 100,000 of someone with 100,025 followers, wouldn't he be a demigod at that point?
Joseph_Silver 09-06-07, 03:29 PM	Well, the "easiest" way to kill a god would be to make people stop believing in him. You can do this by killing his followers wholesale, or perhaps by converting his followers to another religion/deity.
Shiftkitty 09-06-07, 03:54 PM	Lost a god in my campaign through a series of very clever ideas and very good die rolls and very high powered characters. Pretty much nobody lower than epic has even the remotest shot at it in my campaign. But when the deity's personal weapons were stolen and he summoned them back to his side on his home plane, well, the possessor zapped in with them and had intended to just send him a warning shot, something to make him thnk twice about getting directly involved in mortal affairs again. When the shot was fired, that's when the die rolls came in. We stood by the rules for critical threats and hits, then made 20 on d20 for the instant kill. What the player didn't remember was that we play it that killing a god gets you that god's powers, etc., whether or not you're ready for them. It was quite a ride getting through that one. Think "Bruce Almighty". We don't kill many gods in our campaign, and the Godslayer entity that is now in play is strictly for the DM, which happens to be me!
Ecalsneerg 09-06-07, 04:08 PM	Well, the "easiest" way to kill a god would be to make people stop believing in him. You can do this by killing his followers wholesale, or perhaps by converting his followers to another religion/deity. I was going to suggest that... But, sadly, to do it you kinda would have to slaughter an entire clergy, stuff like that. Easier than killing a god, but you could be taken down by numbers if you do it wrong.
Witch 09-06-07, 04:34 PM	Why is it that everyone now wishes to run a god through? Don't people understand that gods are what they are because they trascend mortal ken? (...) Seriously, the difference is abbyssmal. A bunch of ants can't fight a lion, and that's exactly what mortals (even the epic ones) are to Gods - ants. All that depends on the mortal's level. Mythology, as well as D&D, has plenty cases of humans being more powerful than gods. For example, in brahmanism, it has been said that even the gods are subject to the laws of magic, and that the only one who know the secrets of magic are the brahmans - and thus, the gods must do as the brahmans say. There is plenty of precedent of mythology where gods do not hold transcendent status at all - and argueably, not all gods do so in D&D either.
RealSorceror 09-06-07, 05:25 PM	Pssh. I kill gods all the time. I killed Vecna as a mortal, and I killed Corellon when I was a lesser deity. Granted, my character level was higher than theirs in both fights, and Corellon didn't have the option of running, and so he had to fight me to the end. I'd suggest getting a hellish army big enough to hold a plane hostage. Thats what I did to elf-boy. You might have to kill an arch-fiend or three, and if you can't do that, then you have no business fighting gods anyway. Also, I would highly suggest finding some way to achieve Hero-deity status (again, such as offing a few archfiends). If you can achieve that, then you can get divine ranks the old fashioned way - by going on a cross-country campaign to get people to worship your shiny deital butt. This is probably the least violent way, but it will also take a long, long time.
The Livewire 09-06-07, 05:52 PM	Killing a God? Simple. Just cross the streams.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-06-07, 11:08 PM	Also, I would highly suggest finding some way to achieve Hero-deity status (again, such as offing a few archfiends). You're likely to have an easier time killing a few random deities than you will killing off a few archfiends. Admittedly it's all situational more than not.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-06-07, 11:18 PM	1) Wait. Eventually as time goes on, a given deity's longterm existance seems to approach zero and they end up on the Astral as a husk of drifting rock. If you're patient enough, they'll die at someone else's hands, or they'll die of lack of worship. Manage to outlive them and you'll have the last laugh when you dance on their rocky corpse. 2) Spark conflict between deities, or spark conflict between their worshippers. 3) Cause schism among a god's worshippers, and ultimately aim to devastate a given prime material world by that conflict to the point of extinguishing its people entirely, or causing their faith to flicker and finally die. 4) MacGuffin. That which has no stats can only die by that which has no stats. Tried and true method, and a good DM can work wonders with deus ex, though munchkin players will hate this method. 5) Bargain with fiends and rapidly get in over your head... "You want to kill a god? Well, join the club darling." The 'loth smiled and held out a hand for a tiefling servant to grace it with a cup of blood-like win. She paused. "Oh... you're serious? It's not just a rhetorical thing? Well in that case then, do tell. You've come to the right place, because we've done this sort of thing before. More times than you might be comfortable knowing. Unless I'm lying of course. But that's the point isn't it? Doubt? Lack of faith? Lack of trust? The death of belief? That's right, nod your head and feel a chill run up your spine." The mortal made his request and the fiend played along. This one would be fun, and by the Oinoloth, he might ultimately get what he wanted, but not till they had what they wanted from him. He'd have his prize, but they'd have their -price- first, and they'd have another toy to break before it was over.
Fireclave 09-06-07, 11:38 PM	How do you kill a god? Ask your DM. Seriously. Yes, Deities and Demigods stats them out (assuming of course that you DM choices to use those stats at all). That book also gives suggestions for defining the nature of a deity, their connection and purpose in the world, the sources of their power, how/if one can become a god, whether or not a god can truely die, etc, but no actual binding rules. Unless you're using a specific setting, how deific life and death work are completely up to the DM. IOW, there is no official WotC methods that says "To kill god X, ye must Y." I suggest doing some knowledge/lore checks and go from there.
RealSorceror 09-07-07, 10:59 AM	You're likely to have an easier time killing a few random deities than you will killing off a few archfiends. Admittedly it's all situational more than not. Well sure, Asmodeus is a bad dude, and much more of a challenge than a low level DR 2 or 0. But killing someone like Bel is a cake walk for even a low-level epic party. I might consider granting Hero Deity status for killing Bel and the Dark Eight. Thats pretty darn herioc for a few level 21-26 characters.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-07-07, 12:11 PM	Well sure, Asmodeus is a bad dude, and much more of a challenge than a low level DR 2 or 0. But killing someone like Bel is a cake walk for even a low-level epic party. I might consider granting Hero Deity status for killing Bel and the Dark Eight. Thats pretty darn herioc for a few level 21-26 characters. Bel controls an entire infinite layer of a plane, something only a slender minority of gods might feasibly claim to be able to match, and even then, those gods don't have the sort of innate connection to the plane that someone like Bel does. The heads of the orc and goblinoid pantheon used to reside on Avernus, which Bel rules. Gruumsh and Maglubiyet were both literally evicted, and had their deific domains dumped into Acheron for becoming a bother to diabolic affairs on Avernus. Yet you think Bel is a "cake walk" for a low epic party? They might be able to reasonably fight a single avatar of his, they might even win, but you think they'll be able to singlehandedly fight billions of devils in service to Bel, let alone Bel's distinctly unstatted true self? Not in a straight up "roll for initiative versus the Lord of the First" fight, not if we're trying to be realistic about the context of it all.
WombleHunter 09-07-07, 01:27 PM	You stabs em inna face.
Kihon 09-07-07, 01:53 PM	A few observations: First I believe one of the many benefits for being a 'power' is that you are uncritable - so shiftkitty your 20, 20, 20 would not have worked - at all. In fact we won't go into their always winning initiative and having a divine shield. Second a power (or god if you like) is a representation of an idea - thus their domains. They shouldn't be stated at all, but if you must, at least use 'dicefreaks' write ups as they are closer to what it might actually be like to fight one. Third - as stated elsewhere - unless you kill all their followers (and good luck with that) it becomes very hard to kill the power. Perhaps convert 100,000 of them on all 1,000 planes that the being is worshipped on... and at least then you MIGHT come to their attention (which would be bad). Fouth you just can't fight the divine as a mortal being in the divine's home realm - as I believe was stated that the character in question just popped into the god's throne room and attacked him. It's called an ability to alter reality - and if you think an arch-wizard has contingency spells you haven't seen anything that a god would have in their own plane. When you popped into their throne room their divine shields would be up, you'd be under that 38d12 twinned, empowered, maximized, untyped damage instantly (perhaps twice), and several high level beings (Solars, Balors, Etc... depending on good or evil outlooks) would appear popping in instantly to assist if necessary - and those are just 3 contingencies I would have in place if I were a power and something came within (lets say 1 mile) of me without my divine senses knowing it first -- remember we are on my plane where I affect reality and decide what's happening. By the way - I hope you have immunity to cold and don't need to breathe because the local true vaccum that's now following you around is going to be a bit hard to deal with otherwise. Just my 2 cents on it - basically 'good luck - not in my world'
Shiftkitty 09-07-07, 03:13 PM	Aye, there's the rub. In my world, nothing is invincible, and anyone who can get 3 20's in a row without pulling something shady deserves a stroke of luck, even if it's over the top and sends the game spiralling on a whole 'nuther roller coaster ride. Gods in my campaign follow the Greek model of being flawed. What makes people worship them, then? Because gods can squash you like a gnat. Unless you get that one really good roll... It's a personal flavor that we all like, and the one time that the party got this idea to start hunting gods, they found out that if one god is a challenge that requires a LOT of really good rolls, then taking on a pantheon involves, well, divine intervention. Yeah. Like THAT was gonna happen. They found themselves set up like bowling pins and quickly became pawns in a very high-level power game that left a few of the party scarred for life. I think they've learned that luck is just that; luck.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-07-07, 03:27 PM	Why settle for one god, when you could slaughter entire pantheons with enough focused training? http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=8146
Kihon 09-07-07, 04:03 PM	Luck - right, because a 'god' whose int & wis is much above any mortal (and makes this writer look like a chump) would never consider that fate/luck/whatever term you have for it could affect it? Surely any being worthy of worship has multiple contigencies set up (especially in their own realm). Let us not focus on the fact that the power can alter reality as they see fit within their domain. A mere mortal like me, when faced with beings that suddenly appear, I think the temporal realm around me works differently (at least in my throne room, on my home plane) - suddenly I have several free actions - lets see on the first round I .... any number of actions that cause said mortal's death, destruction, imprisonment, torture, worse... whatever your imagination can conjure. It's one thing if you said that the luck of 20, 20, 20 affected a power that was visiting another plane (one which they did not rule), because then you could DM that the being's innate divine powers were somehow hampered by the other power's realm or whatever. The problem I have is you plane shifting into Odin's Throne Room (or any other powers - like they don't have dimensional anchor's, etc... up to stop just that type of thing) and with a 'lucky' roll killing them. They wouldn't simply reappear the next round? Have you read the 'immortal's handbook?' There are several divine powers that allow just that - rebirth, phoneix life, forever night, ect... Any one of which a true power will have in effect at all times, and all of which 'rebirth' the power 1-6 rounds later, fully healed, fully ready to engage whatever caused it's physical form to 'die.' I mean it's your world, make it however you want, but your particular set up would have had me (as a player) not coming back because it just is not believable (and that's saying a lot in D&D). Perhaps you could explain your set up better, but in the end we just differ too much - feel free to play a muchkin game, kill the gods, get involved in divine planar politics, eat arch-fiends & abyssal lords for breakfast - whatever - it's your world. If you want to use the Greek Gods feel free, if you use the standard given powers it just couldn't happen (and personally I don't think it's possible with the Greek ones either). Can you (or me, or anyone) really DM an Int. 27 or Wis. 33 ??? Nope - just assume that the divine being has thought of every single possiblity that your players come up with, solutions, and knows about it in advance. Finally don't forget all the other gods that owe that particular one favors, etc... I'm sure that 'fight for my life' is one of those contigencies - you gate in and face the entire pantheon instead of just the one you were going to give a lesson. Sorry the divine defeated your mind blank (heck if a psion can defeat it, a god can), read you mind, summoned divine help, and all prepared for combat- all in that instant you appeared unannounced in their realm. Of course maybe your mortal character can kill all the gods of a realm at once... it is your game and you've stated that they could get lucky... As for the 'god slayer' epic class - well I'm guessing that as soon as the first mortal takes that speciality the gods of good & evil, chaos & law finally lay aside their differences for a moment in time to combine their might and destroy said mortal, and then back to the divine wars...
Shiftkitty 09-07-07, 04:23 PM	Dude, don't take it personal. It's just a game. Gods are flawed in my game because in real life I have no use for them, nor do my players. FTR, the Godslayer is not an epic class. It's not even a mortal. I don't believe I've ever claimed otherwise. Now put on your big girl panties and get over it.
RealSorceror 09-07-07, 05:25 PM	Dude, don't take it personal. It's just a game. Gods are flawed in my game because in real life I have no use for them, nor do my players. FTR, the Godslayer is not an epic class. It's not even a mortal. I don't believe I've ever claimed otherwise. Now put on your big girl panties and get over it. Ya, you tell 'em! Heck, we also use the three 20's rule. And the thing, all of our gods are ascended player characters. The rule only hurts us, but we use it anyway because it adds that layer of risk and chance, however slight. We killed off the Greyhawk pantheon, often in fair, one on one combat (although once we had a 4 vs 4 show down). It wasn't too difficult, although we often had to find ways to keep the deities from choosing to flee. Often, it required blackmail.
RealSorceror 09-07-07, 05:36 PM	Bel controls an entire infinite layer of a plane, something only a slender minority of gods might feasibly claim to be able to match, and even then, those gods don't have the sort of innate connection to the plane that someone like Bel does. The heads of the orc and goblinoid pantheon used to reside on Avernus, which Bel rules. Gruumsh and Maglubiyet were both literally evicted, and had their deific domains dumped into Acheron for becoming a bother to diabolic affairs on Avernus. Yet you think Bel is a "cake walk" for a low epic party? They might be able to reasonably fight a single avatar of his, they might even win, but you think they'll be able to singlehandedly fight billions of devils in service to Bel, let alone Bel's distinctly unstatted true self? Not in a straight up "roll for initiative versus the Lord of the First" fight, not if we're trying to be realistic about the context of it all. Well first, why would I ever kill my way to Bel? Thats a jillion guys. I'd use up all my resources. There are dozens of better and smarter ways to get directly to him (or at leats pretty close). Also, my playgroup consists entirely of power-gaming roleplayers. We make characters with great personalities and histories, who also happen to be able to fight CR 30s at level 21, often alone. When you get 4 or 5 of these players in one party, then yes, Bel becomes a piece of cake. And his avatars are just Pit Feinds with fancy toys. They are push overs.
Kihon 09-07-07, 06:06 PM	You killed off the whole Greyhawk group of gods - in single combat - right... well enjoy!
Joni-san 09-07-07, 07:25 PM	"Gods? Buncha' annoyin' gits who have nothing betta' ta' do than trying ta' make our lives misserable. Death to ta' lot o' 'em." -Farwn, lowland peasant who lost his crops due to fickle divinities. "Ask not 'why kill a god' but rather 'why not?'" I dunno' why people are so upset about some people killing gods. Hasn't this been going on since the beginning of D&D? Not to mention mythology and literature. (I like how DEATH makes the gods nervous in the Discworld novels).
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-07-07, 07:38 PM	Because this is only for excited atheist (or pseudo-atheist)/wanna-be-amoral/power player Children... :)
Joni-san 09-07-07, 07:57 PM	O RLY?
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-07-07, 09:02 PM	Nope...
empty 09-07-07, 09:39 PM	I think you all have been to much in this reality, where a God is something big and unbelievable mighty... As far as i have seen, in DnD the Gods are as human as a god can be. Kings can be crowned gods if they show off a little power. Of course, if they dont have the powers to prove their claim, the harder they fall. Read the FR novel in the Rogue series? Two Gods standing on a battlefield, with each their army. And only one left, badly damaged. Seen the movie 300? Yes, that badguy claimed he was a god. And as long as noone could disprove it, he actually was. Seen the Stargate movie or series? The goa'ulds was gods, no matter how many times SG-1 managed to disprove it. All these gods have stats. And the "players", the heroes, faced them and sometimes killed them. How is it the saying goes? "Kill thousands and you are a king. Kill them all and you are a god." Conclusion: The only gods who cannot be faced and killed are the gods who exists as ideas.
Altar_Boy 09-07-07, 10:52 PM	Why not contract another deity to kill him? If this deity is evil, Heironous (or his look-alike) would glad lob his metaphysical head off. You either get rewards in gold, or eternal gratitude (or pardon for your unspeakable crimes, whatever :embarrass )
The_Virus 09-07-07, 11:56 PM	well this of course is a difficult task. one way is to kill off all of the gods followers, but that's almost as difficult as killing the god itself. work with the DM to see if they will even allow that. otherwise, check the deities and demigods book to find out what kinds of damage reduction they god has. restrain him or her and try your best to eliminate all those automatic natural twenties and do some lethal damage!!! or if that doesn't work, become one yourself and kill him or her yourself. the Book of Vile Darkness might be able to help you with that too. good luck.
deanruel 09-08-07, 12:09 AM	Get it to look in your Mirror of Opposition. Bam. Fairly proud of that one actually.
RealSorceror 09-08-07, 01:07 AM	You killed off the whole Greyhawk group of gods - in single combat - right... well enjoy! Me? No, I just killed Corellon, Vecna, and Nerull. Zith and Galoneever killed Pelor, Kord, Heironious, and Moradin, as well as several arcfiends and archdukes. Angus killed Tiamat, Lolth, Ilsinsine, and I think Gruumsh. Keep in mind that these where usually in different campaigns, and the combat was often quite lengthy (out of game) due to all of the epic **** that was flying around. Had we built the Greyhawk pantheon correctly, most of the above nonsense never would have happened. The stats given in the Deities and Demigods are pretty sad if you really think about it. I could easily create better builds just using the PH, DMG, and ELH. The fact that the deities are for some reason limited in the amount of magic items they can have also hurt them, since our epic level players had no such limitations.
Bob the Efreet 09-08-07, 04:44 AM	Gods have hit points and an AC. There's your solution right there. Now, if your campaign has some kind of different rules on deities (many do, I assume), it's hard to help without knowing more. Interesting, I think, that most of this thread is about "this is how MY GAME handles gods, so here's your solution."
Freefall 09-08-07, 06:05 AM	Seriously, the difference is abbyssmal. A bunch of ants can't fight a lion, and that's exactly what mortals (even the epic ones) are to Gods - ants. Okay. So let's say that one of these ants manages to gain int 3 and from there acquires 500 levels of Monk. Now put it up against a lion and see who wins. Well, by your line of reasoning I guess you would still have the ant lose, just because it's an ant. Well, hopefully you can at least see how some of us would consider such a decision rather stupid. Some people just have trouble accepting that the idea of "only human" is pretty much out the window past level 10 in D&D. A few observations: First I believe one of the many benefits for being a 'power' is that you are uncritable - so shiftkitty your 20, 20, 20 would not have worked - at all. In fact we won't go into their always winning initiative and having a divine shield. Or the fact that most of them don't actually have those powers. Second a power (or god if you like) is a representation of an idea - thus their domains. They shouldn't be stated at all, but if you must, at least use 'dicefreaks' write ups as they are closer to what it might actually be like to fight one. What does representing an idea have to do with being all-powerful? BTW, Deities & Demigod stats were built with the assumption that mortals capped out at 20th level. If you want gods to remain untouchable by mortals, then the sensible approach is to institute a level cap (which, BTW, is what Dicefreaks has done), rather than all this stupid, "I don't care if you're level 5,000, Imhotep still wins cuz, uh, he's technically a god" crap. Third - as stated elsewhere - unless you kill all their followers (and good luck with that) it becomes very hard to kill the power. Perhaps convert 100,000 of them on all 1,000 planes that the being is worshipped on... and at least then you MIGHT come to their attention (which would be bad). Dealing with only 100 followers on each plane doesn't sound all that bad really. Of course, lesser deities are unlikely to have their worship so widely distributed. I also doubt you'd really have to kill all of them. I doubt that a single mortal generates enough belief to maintain the essence of a god. Regardless, killing worshippers is a method of hurting the god, but that doesn't mean the god can't be killed any other way. When you popped into their throne room their divine shields would be up, you'd be under that 38d12 twinned, empowered, maximized, untyped damage instantly (perhaps twice), and several high level beings (Solars, Balors, Etc... depending on good or evil outlooks) would appear popping in instantly to assist if necessary - and those are just 3 contingencies I would have in place if I were a power and something came within (lets say 1 mile) of me without my divine senses knowing it first -- remember we are on my plane where I affect reality and decide what's happening. By the way - I hope you have immunity to cold and don't need to breathe because the local true vaccum that's now following you around is going to be a bit hard to deal with otherwise. I doubt most gods are so ruthlessly, not to mention recklessly, paranoid. Most of this basically feels like metagaming to me, with the DM vs. Player mentality that seems to always come out in these threads. I'm not sure what exactly it is, but some DMs apparently identify very strongly with the gods and seem to take it as a personal challenge when people talk about trying to defeat them, even though there is a strong precedent for it in both D&D and in real world mythology. Luck - right, because a 'god' whose int & wis is much above any mortal (and makes this writer look like a chump) would never consider that fate/luck/whatever term you have for it could affect it? You're making very large, not to mention blatantly false, assumptions about deific intelligence and wisdom. They tend to be smart, sure, but most of them aren't smarter than epic wizards, and there isn't really much reason why they would be. suddenly I have several free actions - lets see on the first round I .... any number of actions that cause said mortal's death, destruction, imprisonment, torture, worse... whatever your imagination can conjure. I'm guessing you'd be a god of evil, or at best a harsh neutrality, seeing as how it didn't seem to occur to you to try checking their alignments or intentions at all before destroying them. I'm also wondering if all of that has actual precedent in the rules or if you just made it up. From what I recall, a god's ability to alter reality is pretty strong, but also has limits, and I think multiple free actions invoking spells/SLAs/SDAs would surpass them. Have you read the 'immortal's handbook?' There are several divine powers that allow just that - rebirth, phoneix life, forever night, ect... Any one of which a true power will have in effect at all times, and all of which 'rebirth' the power 1-6 rounds later, fully healed, fully ready to engage whatever caused it's physical form to 'die.' The Immortal's Handbook isn't official and there's a good chance a lot of people on these boards haven't read it. I wasn't aware that Upper Krust gave all gods the ability to spontaneously ressurrect against mortals. Frankly, it seem quite odd to me that he would, since I'm pretty sure he is all for mortals killing deities, as long as they are actually powerful enough to do it (i.e. he might have a god at CR 500, but if a group of mortals actually gets to level 500 and go fight it, then yeah, they'll probably win). Can you (or me, or anyone) really DM an Int. 27 or Wis. 33 ??? Nope - just assume that the divine being has thought of every single possiblity that your players come up with, solutions, and knows about it in advance. And if the PCs include a Wizard with Int 50 and a Cleric with Wis 50? That's a heck of a lot smarter and wiser than your example god, should we just assume that they have thought of every possibility the god could come up with, come up with solutions, and know about it in advance? Is that how epic level encounters should be run? Just see which epic spellcaster has the highest intelligence and assume he therefore comes up with an unbeatable strategy for victory? Really, at some point, the actual number for the ability scores doesn't mean anything outside of their associated modifier. They basically just become a way of keeping track of who's smarter than who, or wiser or more agile or whatever. They're kind of like power levels in Dragon Ball Z. At 18,000 they could destroy planets. Later they get power levels well over a million, but they don't blow up planets much, because at that point the power levels didn't really mean anything and were basically just there to keep track of who was stronger than who. Finally don't forget all the other gods that owe that particular one favors, etc... I'm sure that 'fight for my life' is one of those contigencies - you gate in and face the entire pantheon instead of just the one you were going to give a lesson. I think it is pretty questionable if a newbie lesser god is all that well connected. Pretty much the only gods that should be able to summon up the whole pantheon on a whim are the all-fathers. Sure, Zeus or Indra should be able to do it, but if Ares tried it, there's a good chance the other greek gods wouldn't bother at all, or some of them (particularly Athena) might show up just to watch and laugh while he got beat up by a few mortals (in fact, Athena might even help them if they looked like they needed a little help; Zeus might too if Ares actually had the gall to attempt to "summon" him). BTW, I am reading the Mahabharata right now (a Hindu epic). In it, Indra did summon up the rest of the gods (along with a number of other celestial creatures) to deal with an impetuous mortal hero. And they all lost, too. That's real world mythology for you (okay, it was two heroes, but still). Sorry the divine defeated your mind blank (heck if a psion can defeat it, a god can), read you mind, summoned divine help, and all prepared for combat- all in that instant you appeared unannounced in their realm. I think you're just making stuff up again. I dunno, maybe greater gods could do all that (I'm not an expert on divine rules by any stretch), but most gods aren't greater gods. As for the 'god slayer' epic class - well I'm guessing that as soon as the first mortal takes that speciality the gods of good & evil, chaos & law finally lay aside their differences for a moment in time to combine their might and destroy said mortal, and then back to the divine wars... Yay, more DM metagaming. Sorry, I really can't see Horus setting aside his differences with Set to go attack some human (maybe if he was very evil and very powerful, but certainly not if he was good). I actually think it would be more likely that the gods would attempt to convert the mortal to their side or use him as a pawn. The only way all the gods are going to team up is against a mortal that actually threatens all of them simultaneously. We're talking a mortal of Tharizdun proportions. It would take a heck of a lot of levels for a mortal to get to that point.
RealSorceror 09-08-07, 10:43 AM	Freefall, I bow to your greatness. :bigeyes: Please, take this :cookie: as token of my worship, oh mighty god of....of defeating pig-headedness.
RealSorceror 09-08-07, 10:46 AM	Interesting, I think, that most of this thread is about "this is how MY GAME handles gods, so here's your solution." Good point. I suppose we should ask the OP how his DM handles deities.
Lobsopdoy 09-08-07, 04:59 PM	I doubt most gods are so ruthlessly, not to mention recklessly, paranoid. Most of this basically feels like metagaming to me, with the DM vs. Player mentality that seems to always come out in these threads. I'm not sure what exactly it is, but some DMs apparently identify very strongly with the gods and seem to take it as a personal challenge when people talk about trying to defeat them, even though there is a strong precedent for it in both D&D and in real world mythology. Not paranoid so much as having a lot of free time. After all, a thousand years leaves lots of time to spruce up the place you live in.
Shiftkitty 09-08-07, 08:19 PM	:bow: :bow: :bow: All hail Freefall! My feelings are "If they didn't want it to die, they wouldn't have given it stats." Does Ao have stats?
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-08-07, 08:21 PM	Yay, more DM metagaming. Sorry, I really can't see Horus setting aside his differences with Set to go attack some human (maybe if he was very evil and very powerful, but certainly not if he was good). I actually think it would be more likely that the gods would attempt to convert the mortal to their side or use him as a pawn. The only way all the gods are going to team up is against a mortal that actually threatens all of them simultaneously. We're talking a mortal of Tharizdun proportions. It would take a heck of a lot of levels for a mortal to get to that point. Did you even read the class? Not only is it vile, but it is indeed quite a threat to a pantheon. 1 on 1, an X 35/ Godslayer 10 will slaughter anything god short of the most powerful greater deities. Even against a larger group it could more than likely hold its own. Kind of makes me want to run a playtest...
Ramirez777 09-08-07, 09:19 PM	From alot of random D&D experience, the easiest way to hurt, or even kill a God, is to remove/sway his/her worshipers. If no one beleives in a God, does it truely exist? To become divine yourself, prove your power over him to those that are mortal, and convert their status of divinity to yourself. ;)
Witch 09-09-07, 03:28 AM	Did you even read the class? Not only is it vile, but it is indeed quite a threat to a pantheon. 1 on 1, an X 35/ Godslayer 10 will slaughter anything god short of the most powerful greater deities. Even against a larger group it could more than likely hold its own. Kind of makes me want to run a playtest... You know, and I've said this on that thread often, that class is imbalanced in view of the deities in Deities & Demigods. It is useable only in the class' designer's homebrew, where deities are far, far stronger. And hence less pathetic against this class.
V8122 09-09-07, 07:29 AM	I am receiving a vision- This thread will soon be locked. ON TOPIC: I agree with the followers/worshipers thing. (Go Black and White!). This also means that the only Demigods are really "there", persay. In my game, the mortals all agree that dietys exist, however, since they never directly interact with mortals, they cannot be said to exist. Sure, Spells can be used in defense, however who is to say that the god is granting spells, and that they are not the bi-product of beleif? Demigods are the logical exception- You can see, feel, and hear their awesomeness.
Shiftkitty 09-09-07, 10:27 AM	re: Gods reliant on worshippers qv. cargo cults http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult To these people, their deities are no less poweful for having been pilots and airmen than any other deity in human history. I'm not sure why I found this relevant to the thread, maybe because of the worshippers=power thing. Of course, none of these guys could shoot lightning bolts out of their butts, but they had their followers, so who's to say they weren't gods?
Bloodsoul 09-10-07, 01:50 AM	To defy a god is the ultimate blasphemy, and it will be taken notice by the deity's clergy and worshippers all over. So before you think about arming yourself to fight him/her, expect to face his entire Faith of followers. I'm actually wanting this to happen; since my PC slayed a few gods to get where she is, I'd like to see what the Greek/Egyptian/Dragon/whoever-else-she-ticked-off pantheons have up their sleeves. ^_^
Zousha_Omenohu 09-10-07, 02:01 AM	I know I'm just fanning the flames here, but a surefire way to ensure a god dies is to find some way to obtain his/her True Name. Then you can simply command him/her to die, or better yet, force him/her to serve as your lackey!:evillaugh What? It works with Mephistopheles!
Kihon 09-10-07, 09:17 AM	One comment on the Mind Blank. If you read the Psionics Handbook you may recall a 7th or 8th level power that's sole purpose is to defeat the "mindblank" of magic. I don't have the book here at work, or I'd give you the page number so you can read it yourself. My point was that if a 15th+ level Psion can defeat a mind blank spell, I assume that most powers could also. Perhaps a few of the demi-god's can't (assuming they have no psionic powers) but by the time you get to lesser/immediate level - yes you can defeat mind blank mortal magic. As to the God's being 'very evil' or 'very paranoid' - well if you had 10,000 years to consider all the ways some arrogant mortal might try and rob you of your divinity - you too would come up with all sorts of ways to stop them. And that is where the god has the advantage over the epic wizard - lets say they each have the same Int & Wis (doubtful, but anyway) - the True Power has been considering things for 10,000+ years - and you mortal have been considering it for how long? Back to the origional post - about killing a true power IN THEIR DOMAIN - good luck (again). There may be all sorts of things you can come up with for capturing, luring, tricking - but to 'port into their throne room' - no I do not see how any mortal could survive that. It's not evil to defend yourself - and there really is only one reason to port right in. You see if you are of the same alignment then you would have manners, and at least knock on the front door if not set up an appointment in the past. If you rudely just appear in front of me, well you get the "meta DM response" - and if you can survive then perhaps you are a power and deserve to kill me, but most mortals will not. That's why I'd use Dicefreak's write ups because at least they are closer to what a true power might be - in his home domain. That power of 'alter reality' should not be down played, and any power worth it's salt will have that. Same with some of the other useful divine powers - such as divine shield. If some smart ass like me can figure out just how useful a power can be, I think it's safe to assume that the mythical powers can also. As for the idea that the Greek gods are so much like mortals that they can be defeated by them. Well Zeus, Posideon, Hades, Athena, Ares, Apollo, Nike, Hecate, Hermes and all the others must have done a good job because they are all remembered as the gods. Finally - most divinity is linked to each other in their pantheon. Perhaps a lesser god couldn't summon the entire pantheon - your point - ok. They would summon those of the same alignment, and any 'new' power probably has some type of sponsor who surely would show up. If you decided to kill St. Cuthbert, and could handle Pelor & Herionious at the same time - well ok, go for it. Have fun, it's only a game - I just disagree with the ease you seem to have in kill the gods.
Triyu 09-10-07, 11:56 AM	Summon Nietzsche. :P
Biolyticclod 09-10-07, 05:45 PM	Kihon; It's not that we're trying to to kill gods. We're trying to killl a singular evil god whom for one reason or another has a human agenda... (which erks me in many ways as a player and a DM) Secondly we're (the party at hand) aren't trying to take down a god within his own divine realm... That like many have stated and I'm sure all would agree, it suicide and stupid at that. We're trying to trap him hopefully with a well thought out plan (an epic ritual that'll take about 300 days to cast:devil:), out side of his own realm, and then take it from there.... the only thing is trying to find out a way to kill him.... :(
Psionx 09-10-07, 06:26 PM	Pun-Pun Swarm of crystals without the nerf maybe.
Kihon 09-11-07, 04:48 PM	Ok Bio... Mass Epic Ritual to summon him & trap his 'essence' off his home plane - ok. Keep the ritual secret or he may find out about it, and if he has prior knowledge of what you are attempting you are hosed. Second - once you get him and trap him I'm guessing you have a time line, meaning after a set number minutes he'll have found a way to contact help - so try to keep him from summoning help, because one evil balor/pit fiend or other minor diety that can cast plane shift and he's gone. But I'm sure he would not forget your attempt on his life. So you have him off plane, trapped, and in a forbiddance area so he can't summon help. I would suggest a high level psion or he may make you all kneel with mind magic that you don't know about - just have one around for defense if nothing else. Second high level magics cast by him (epic spells for sure) - be ready for anything - arcane & divine. Even if you don't think he can cast - he still might be able to - remember the powers do what can't be done. Third be ready for "wish / alter reality" type ability on his part - very hard to deal with. I'd have a high level chronomancer on hand to go back in the time stream and cast wish to counter whatever the diety did to get loose. Fourth - you are still in for the fight of your collective lives, if the DM goes at you and knows the rules well. Enjoy
Shiftkitty 09-11-07, 09:28 PM	if the DM goes at you and knows the rules well And what's the number one rule of D&D? The rules aren't set in stone. If a DM has decided that the gods of their lands can be killed (as described in Deities and Demigods, it's entirely up to the DM), then nobody can say he or she is wrong. I agree with you, however, that the kill must be quick. You can't trap a god and sit there like a typical Hollywood villain and explain your plan to him while he summons his minions. I've flicked so many reality alterations at overly-cocky players when they thought it would be easy that they've learned that reality is only the instant in which they happen to be in. The high-level psion is also a good idea, but be ready to lose him in the deal. I'm eager to hear how this plan goes down! Will you keep us posted, Biolyticclod? (And never mind the naysayers and spotmen*.) *Spotmen! This oughta find out how many of you are musicians!
risk_bandit 09-11-07, 11:50 PM	My group had a discussion on how gods work in our worlds. It basically came down to this: If you have a large enough following and have performed a miracle you gain the whole divine rank and all that stuff. But, what if your followers stopped believing or started following someone else? There was a plot device that was come up with that we would just get all the believers of a certain god to worship someone else, and then said god would just start to lose power or just fade away. It was a lot of roleplay heavy stuff but it made sense to us at the time.
Biolyticclod 09-12-07, 08:03 PM	You know after all the thought I put into this whole plan on taking down a god.. I never once considered the Psion. Just slipped my mind. Great Idea. Same with the Chronomancer. Haven't thought of that either. Although one will be hard to come across. It'll have to be done another way... or we'll hold out until we've found someone (or taken the class with someone). Other than the Chronomancer and the Psion everything else is just waiting... The ritual is secret above all else. And our party has gained favor with a lcoal demigod (good-aligned) that is allowing us to build the epic ward within her divine realm (as to keep out prying eyes) and all that hoohaw. I'll definately keep you posted on how it goes.
ArmondUngart 09-13-07, 02:22 PM	In my campaign world, all the gods loose there immortality for a year, once a generation. This allows their divine energy to recharge. They have limited use of their divine powers. Also that year they hold a tournement for anybody who wishes to overthrow them. I my campaigns to kill a god you must: 1) Bring them to zero hit points in the material plane. Which transports and binds the god to his own plane. 2) defeat the god in his own plane. Which transports the god and the pc to the tournement grounds fully healed and charged. 3) defeat the god in the tournement and use Wish to replace him as that god. Of course this has not been successfuly done yet, considering the pcs only have a year to do it.
Shiftkitty 09-13-07, 03:00 PM	In my campaign world, all the gods loose there immortality for a year, once a generation. This allows their divine energy to recharge. They have limited use of their divine powers. Also that year they hold a tournement for anybody who wishes to overthrow them. I my campaigns to kill a god you must: 1) Bring them to zero hit points in the material plane. Which transports and binds the god to his own plane. 2) defeat the god in his own plane. Which transports the god and the pc to the tournement grounds fully healed and charged. 3) defeat the god in the tournement and use Wish to replace him as that god. Of course this has not been successfuly done yet, considering the pcs only have a year to do it. Hey, we oughta try this for our national elections! Every four years somebody gets to steel-cage deathmatch their elected officials in a grand melee!:D
Ornum 09-13-07, 03:13 PM	Hey, we oughta try this for our national elections! Every four years somebody gets to steel-cage deathmatch their elected officials in a grand melee!:D It's wouldn't be fair. Jesse Ventura would win every time.
ArmondUngart 09-16-07, 02:18 AM	It's wouldn't be fair. Jesse Ventura would win every time. Not true... Dick Chenney would shoot them, (confussed of course, because we all know that birds and humans look alike), Though I would be fairly confident that Mr. Ventura would make his saving throw and comeback with a "I dont have time to bleed" campaign. In which case the democrates still win and I can finally remove my bullet proof vest. :D
Aleolus 09-16-07, 01:20 PM	Or, you could utilize Fulver's Conundrum. It's an Ancient Relic, which can deprive a deity of their divine powers. To understand it, anyone trying to use it must first undergo a full year of uninterrupted study, followed by a DC 35 Int check, or go insane as if affected by a permanent Confusion spell. If you succeed, you can complete the Conundrum, which allows you to trap one deity, through creating a paradox calling into question their own existence. A deity trapped by the Conundrum has to accomplish one seemingly impossible task, based on their own nature. For instance, an omnipotent deity's task might be to create a boulder that even he cannot lift. While a deity is trapped by the Conundrum, whoever trapped the deity gains a divine rank equal to the Deity trapped, as well as it's portfolio and the ability to grant spells to their worshippers. Essentially, when you trap a deity with Fulver's Conundrum, you take that deities' place, until they accomplish their task. If they voluntarily forfeit the test, then the deity becomes a mortal, and the mortal who trapped the deity with it permanently takes that deities' place.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-19-07, 12:04 AM	Well, first you do damage to it and survive the damage it deals to you. You prevent it from fleeing, and eventually, it goes down. The builds in D&Dg are all horrible; 20 wiz/20 Cleric is horribly lame; still, massive Divine Ranks does fix a lot. In any case, the Reason why this is relevant is that gods probably have other gods working for them. After a few tiers downward, you are dealing with 15-20th level/1 Divine Rank guys who are quite killable. IMC, there is no point where deities become so strong they can not die or be killed by mortals. Alter Reality and Always roll 20s seems kind of lame to me, so I don't use them. If a Deity can cast wish, it casts wish. I like the refilling XP reserve strategy; so the deity just buys its own wish. If gods are unkillable, they should never be born, or else everything will turn into gods over time. Gods might be able to worship themselves or create thrall races that worship them. Worship = 0 should only drop the Deity to its mortal form; it should not kill the character.
goddessrose 09-19-07, 07:09 AM	the realm my DM made would scare all of you s**Tless lets put it this way are my chareters stats as a Lvl 80 Rank 50 Diety after equipment are Str: 600 Mod: +290 HP: 12,000 Current HP: max Subdual Damage: Dex: 600 Mod: +290 AC: 790 Flat Footed: 600 Touch: 290 Con: 600 Mod: +290 Initiative Modifier: +290 ( {DEX +290} + Misc mod 0 ) Int: 600 Mod: +290 Base Attack Bonus: +300/295/290/285 Wis: 600 Mod: +290 Saving Throws: FORT: 690 REF: 690 WILL: 690 Cha: 600 Mod: +290 Melee Attack Bonus: (STR +290) +300/295/290/285 (+400) = 990/985/980/975 Ranged Attack Bonus: (DEX +290) +300/295/290/285 (+400) = 990/985/980/975 and she is the 7th from the top of the food chain ^-^ you dont want to see number one last i heard my DM was Laughing his A** off about 4,300,000 hp or some thing like that o.o -gulps and goes to invent a multi verse killing attack-
Witch 09-19-07, 07:12 AM	How impressive.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-20-07, 04:44 AM	Well, this dodges the point. Some gods might be so awesome that they might never be taken down, but consider the tail end of the food chain. Imhotep, A lowly Exp 20/DR 1 is not a ultrapowered deity; indeed, he should be a fair challenge for a 20th level party at best. The PCs find him, kill him, and he stays dead. Now, killing a more powerful deity is much more difficult, but who's to say that its impossible? The Gods in D&DGs, with their clever Wiz 20/Necromancer 20 buillds, are probably all beatable by PCs in the low 40s in level. There are probably counters for dealing with mass life&death by this point, and alter reality (If its just Wish, Wish can't touch the PCs by this point). Only Greater Deities cheesy 'Insert 20' power makes them broken, and anything below this is definitely whompable...
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-20-07, 09:05 AM	the realm my DM made would scare all of you s**Tless lets put it this way are my chareters stats as a Lvl 80 Rank 50 Diety after equipment are Str: 600 Mod: +290 HP: 12,000 Current HP: max Subdual Damage: Dex: 600 Mod: +290 AC: 790 Flat Footed: 600 Touch: 290 Con: 600 Mod: +290 Initiative Modifier: +290 ( {DEX +290} + Misc mod 0 ) Int: 600 Mod: +290 Base Attack Bonus: +300/295/290/285 Wis: 600 Mod: +290 Saving Throws: FORT: 690 REF: 690 WILL: 690 Cha: 600 Mod: +290 Melee Attack Bonus: (STR +290) +300/295/290/285 (+400) = 990/985/980/975 Ranged Attack Bonus: (DEX +290) +300/295/290/285 (+400) = 990/985/980/975 and she is the 7th from the top of the food chain ^-^ you dont want to see number one last i heard my DM was Laughing his A** off about 4,300,000 hp or some thing like that o.o -gulps and goes to invent a multi verse killing attack- I hope Witch was being sarcastic. Goddess, do you have any idea how unrealistically arbitray those numbers are? I mean, I have no problem with massive stats in DnD, but it makes 0 sense that a level 80 would have stats like that. In my campaign setting, (which I eagerly await the next immortals handbook to retool all my deities with), the manifestation of the supreme being is a 400 hd Force Dragon with 350 in every stat, Divine Rank 60, and gestalted as a Cleric/Druid/Psion/Wizard. BUt all that power, is nothing compared to the abilities that derive completely from his ultradivine station, i.e., his flavor. The only reason he's satted at all is because the Supreme Being Himself is not, therefore anyone that isn't completely omnipotent gets statted. No one in my CS could ever come close to killing him, hell, his True Wish ability at will as a free action ensures that almost nothing ever created could ever kill him, but he's never actually meant to be fought. Sure its fun to play with massive numbers, but think about what those numbers represent; beings of that stature are more of metaphysical concepts than actuall entities, and as such, they really should never, ever be fought. But oh well, its you r game. If that's what floats your boat. Whatever. Edit: And believe it or not, those numbers, even 4,300,000 hp aren't that impressive if you even have the most basic idea of what the Immortals Handbook is. Sure, its third party, but its alot more thought out than whatever arbitrary values your Dm decides to pull out. (Unless of course, you're already using it, in which case, all the power to you. But if you are indeed, than the number 1 should probably have a lot closer to infinite hp than 4,300,000. I mean, 750d1000 + whatever the obnoxious Con modifier a Time Lord gets hp, should ensure more than that amount of hp anyways. Hell, even the Neutronium Golem is probably stronger than that thing.) Edit 2: Oh, and just because I'm rather irritated at the moment, here's something that could kill your supreme being. (I take no credit for this work of art/ monstrosity) A'tuin the Star Turtle (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle)
FlikViktor 09-24-07, 11:19 PM	Well actually if your talking about a high ranked god, just kiss your rear goodbye because the only way to fight a god is to be a god. My group came up with a plan to kill a god, and it would have actually worked out well too, except we never got to execute the plan. Our targets were weaker gods, such as Imotep, Hercules, Sobek, etc... and work our way up the food chain. In game and out of game we researched on gods in hope to find a way to gain godhood for ourselves. There is a dagger in the Faiths and Pantheons book that bypasses divine rank for armor bonuses. If you could cross that with a weapon that is considered Epic for overcoming DR, and has Brilliant Energy attached to it, you have a rather fair chance of hitting a god, however finding a way to deal out the damage your gonna need to kill the god within a few rounds is a matter of a different story.