Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zzo38 08-12-07, 11:54 AM	If you destroy Mystra in Forgotten Realms would all magic (arcane/divine/psionics) stop working? What else would happen? And how would you try to destroy Mystra anyways?
Mirtek 08-12-07, 12:04 PM	A successor would rise. And it would not automatically be the one who destroyed her. Note that shadowweave magic would not stop working. About how to destroy her: Talos, Cyric, Shar, or Bane would be your most likely allies. All are greater gods and you definately need divine aid (no mortal can destroy a deity without divine aid of annother deity in the FR setting). Best chance would be to get Shar and Cyric on your side. They are both greater deities in their own right, both hate Mystra and they are starting to form an alliance anyway so you don't need to get two gods together that don't already "like" each other.
malykoth 08-12-07, 12:06 PM	If you destroy Mystra in Forgotten Realms would all magic (arcane/divine/psionics) stop working? What else would happen? And how would you try to destroy Mystra anyways? Personally, I think the idea of destroying a god "within the rules" is dumb. They're GODS after all! I much prefer the Eberron way of dealing with the divine. Granted, I don't play epic-level games...if I did, perhaps I'd feel different. Still, a god can be destroyed as a plot device, of course. I'd imagine if Mystra was destroyed, Ao would simply appoint another god of magic (perhaps Azuth? Maybe Elminster? The Simbul would be a fun choice, what with her Chaotic bend)...unless one of the other gods attempted to absorb her portfolios. I could easily see Shar or Cyric going for it...could lead to an interesting "holy war" between those two.
caeruleus 08-12-07, 02:08 PM	I think psionics would still work fine without Mystra, because, IIRC, the PGtF says that psionic individuals generate their own weaves. But one way to destroy Mystra might be to play Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, and help, rather than fight, the bad guys.
Psionycx 08-12-07, 02:26 PM	Of course the goal there was to leave Shar, and her Shadow Weave, as the sole source of arcane magic. If that were to happen any subsequent arcane spellcasters would have to play by Shar's rules. Divine magic is an open question. 3E is vague about whether the Weave is needed for divine spells to work, although the usual assumption is that it is. 2E always assumed that the Weave was used for divine spellcasting, which did create some friction in relations between Mystra and other gods. Psionics has never been linked to the Weave or the Shadow Weave (and in 2E it wasn't linked to magic at all). Psionics users are oblivious to the state of the Weave for the most part. I think though that if Mystra were somehow killed that there would be all-out godly warfare as the deities scrambled to reestablish some kind of Weave (I doubt any god wants to be dependent on Shar's good graces) and who would then control the portfolio of Magic.
zzo38 08-12-07, 04:35 PM	Of course the goal there was to leave Shar, and her Shadow Weave, as the sole source of arcane magic. If that were to happen any subsequent arcane spellcasters would have to play by Shar's rules. Divine magic is an open question. 3E is vague about whether the Weave is needed for divine spells to work, although the usual assumption is that it is. 2E always assumed that the Weave was used for divine spellcasting, which did create some friction in relations between Mystra and other gods. Psionics has never been linked to the Weave or the Shadow Weave (and in 2E it wasn't linked to magic at all). Psionics users are oblivious to the state of the Weave for the most part. I think though that if Mystra were somehow killed that there would be all-out godly warfare as the deities scrambled to reestablish some kind of Weave (I doubt any god wants to be dependent on Shar's good graces) and who would then control the portfolio of Magic. The forgotten realms book seems to say divine magic and arcane magic both use the weave, and since psionics/magic are considered equivalent dead magic everywhere would be dead psionics everywhere as well (but as you said, other sources contradict that, so I don't know). And O, I forgot yes you would have to destoy Shar as well. Now, if both Shar and Mystra are destroyed then tell me if you also need to destroy Ao to stop them from appointing another gods of magic. Can Ao be destroyed? And if Ao is destroyed would it mix up other things as well?
Psionycx 08-12-07, 06:01 PM	Psionics in FR isn't linked to the Weave, so I would imagine that psionics users ignore dead magic areas for the same reason Shadow Weave users do. "Dead magic" in the Realms does not indicate an abolsute anti-magical space anymore, it's just a hole in the Weave. Such holes don't impact those that don't draw upon the Weave for their powers. I think, in all seriousness, that to completely irradicate all magic from the Realms you would need to destroy all of the gods, plus Ao. That's a pretty tall order. Ao in particular, being an overpower, is not statted and probably can't be killed by anything less than another overpower, or by his mysterious superior. It's not in the gods' interest for Toril to become totally non-magical. If Mystra and Shar were destroyed odds are that the other gods would either have a war over who claims their portfolios, or else Ao would appoint a successor(s). Magic is seen as being a part of the Balance after all.
Adrez Nesnsid 08-12-07, 08:13 PM	Personally, I think the idea of destroying a god "within the rules" is dumb. They're GODS after all! I much prefer the Eberron way of dealing with the divine. Granted, I don't play epic-level games...if I did, perhaps I'd feel different. Still, a god can be destroyed as a plot device, of course. Forgotten Realms is a special case though, as the fluff text clearly mentions that Mystra has been killed before, and by a mortal no less...
Shemeska the Marauder 08-12-07, 11:35 PM	Also, killing Mystra would only affect arcane magic within the scope of where the Weave existed (only on Toril, and potentially the other planets that orbit Toril's sun). Magic on other worlds in the prime material would not be affected, nor would magic on the planes be affected (except for within the boundaries of Mystra's divine domain).
Dragonlord20000 08-12-07, 11:39 PM	The god of magic has died twice in the history of the realms. The first time, Karsus a crazy good archmage of the Netheril cast a spell to steal Mystryl's (Mystra I) divine power, which in the end killed her and Karsus. A new magic god (Mystra II) was reincarnated fairly fast and placed limits on the weave (read: caps on magic spells) that was meant to prevent crazy power abuse as above. The second death, Mystra II was killed by Helm when she tried to travel back into the outer planes, and her essence merged with the land. A mage named Midnight eventually took her essence from the land to become Mystra III, I think Ao was involved in this as well. So basically if you want to kill Mystra and follow precedent you need to either: A. Find a way to go over the limits set in the weave and attack Mystra using Karsus's spell, which could cause an end to all weave based magic. or B. Get another god to kill her, as suggested above Shar should do. However history pretty much states that another Mystra will rise unless another God absorbs the portfolio of magic, and if that happens you've kinda gone full circle.
Zousha_Omenohu 08-13-07, 12:13 AM	Why do you want to destroy Mystra anyways? What did she ever do to you?:P
Zebppir 08-13-07, 12:37 AM	Psionics in FR isn't linked to the Weave, so I would imagine that psionics users ignore dead magic areas for the same reason Shadow Weave users do. "Dead magic" in the Realms does not indicate an abolsute anti-magical space anymore, it's just a hole in the Weave. Such holes don't impact those that don't draw upon the Weave for their powers. I think, in all seriousness, that to completely irradicate all magic from the Realms you would need to destroy all of the gods, plus Ao. That's a pretty tall order. Ao in particular, being an overpower, is not statted and probably can't be killed by anything less than another overpower, or by his mysterious superior. It's not in the gods' interest for Toril to become totally non-magical. If Mystra and Shar were destroyed odds are that the other gods would either have a war over who claims their portfolios, or else Ao would appoint a successor(s). Magic is seen as being a part of the Balance after all. true but in FR everything is intertwined killing mystra would without a doubt cause massive damage to the weave which in turn would knockout or destroy psonics and possibly damaging/destroying anything short of Ao remember the TOT? if the inbalence were to continue Ao would have to become involved and besides what did mystra do to you?did she refuse to date your PC in epic?
ArcTan 08-13-07, 12:41 AM	If you destroy Mystra in Forgotten Realms would all magic (arcane/divine/psionics) stop working? What else would happen? And how would you try to destroy Mystra anyways? Dude, it's already happened. Twice.
Manyfist 08-13-07, 01:28 AM	Destroying Mystra would have no effect on Psionics which are the magic from within, Shadow Weave which is maintained by Shar, or Divine Magic which is through the gods them selves. Arcane Magic would be unusable for a time in till, a new goddess of magic or god of magic is placed in her stead.
Mirtek 08-13-07, 09:59 AM	Forgotten Realms is a special case though, as the fluff text clearly mentions that Mystra has been killed before, and by a mortal no less... No, she has not. She committed suicide to prematurely end the spell of said mortal. She could have chosen to simply let the spell run it's normal duration and the mortal would have died at the end and she would have been none the worse for wear. She simply chose suicide because she though it would damage the weave too badly is she would just sit it out.
Millennium 08-13-07, 10:51 AM	Destroying Mystra would have no effect on Psionics which are the magic from within, Shadow Weave which is maintained by Shar, or Divine Magic which is through the gods them selves. Arcane Magic would be unusable for a time in till, a new goddess of magic or god of magic is placed in her stead. Actually, both psionics and divine magic depend on the Weave, so these would be disrupted. This is one of the reasons Mystra is considered so powerful: she can deny magic even to most followers of other gods. You're right about the Shadow Weave, though; that would continue to work undisturbed, and it remains the only loophole in Mystra's Deny Weave SDA.
caeruleus 08-13-07, 01:20 PM	No, she has not. She committed suicide to prematurely end the spell of said mortal. She could have chosen to simply let the spell run it's normal duration and the mortal would have died at the end and she would have been none the worse for wear. She simply chose suicide because she though it would damage the weave too badly is she would just sit it out. Having driven her to commit suicide, I think it's reasonable to say that he brought about her death, even if it wasn't direct.
caeruleus 08-13-07, 01:26 PM	Actually, both psionics and divine magic depend on the Weave, so these would be disrupted. This is one of the reasons Mystra is considered so powerful: she can deny magic even to most followers of other gods. You're right about the Shadow Weave, though; that would continue to work undisturbed, and it remains the only loophole in Mystra's Deny Weave SDA. Player's Guide to Faerun, p. 172: Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faerun's Weave (or the Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects. Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore and ability throughout the populace of Faerun. It goes on to say that magic and psionics interact in the Realms, so detect magic detects psionics, and detect psionics detects magic, as per the default rules in the XPH. However, the passage I just quoted should settle the matter on whether Mystra has anything to do with psionics.
zzo38 08-13-07, 08:05 PM	... and besides what did mystra do to you?did she refuse to date your PC in epic? Nothing, I was just wondering, that's all.
Millennium 08-14-07, 11:19 AM	It goes on to say that magic and psionics interact in the Realms, so detect magic detects psionics, and detect psionics detects magic, as per the default rules in the XPH. However, the passage I just quoted should settle the matter on whether Mystra has anything to do with psionics. Interesting. There's been conflicting stuff in some of the Web articles, but I can see an argument for PGtF overriding that stuff (most of which was 3.0 anyway). Thanks for the info.
caeruleus 08-14-07, 02:09 PM	Interesting. There's been conflicting stuff in some of the Web articles, but I can see an argument for PGtF overriding that stuff (most of which was 3.0 anyway). Thanks for the info. Ah, I wasn't aware of these web articles. But yeah, if they were 3.0, I'd also say that PGtF trumps them.
Chanmanm8 08-15-07, 11:13 AM	Actually, both psionics and divine magic depend on the Weave, so these would be disrupted. This is one of the reasons Mystra is considered so powerful: she can deny magic even to most followers of other gods. You're right about the Shadow Weave, though; that would continue to work undisturbed, and it remains the only loophole in Mystra's Deny Weave SDA. I'm sure it has been stated in text that while Mystra can deny gods from accessing the Weave, she can't deny them from granting spells to followers (though she could prevent the followers from casting spells). Originally Posted by Dragonlord20000 So basically if you want to kill Mystra and follow precedent you need to either: A. Find a way to go over the limits set in the weave and attack Mystra using Karsus's spell, which could cause an end to all weave based magic. or B. Get another god to kill her, as suggested above Shar should do. There was an idea I came up with concerning part A, but according to the all know Jaerom Darkwind, it is not allowed...by the standard rules from older editions. Thus, if you are the DM you can CHOOSE to void this and in turn consider what I came up with. It is SPECIFICALLY stated that Weave is the source of magic ON THE MATERIAL PLANE. NOT THE OUTER PLANES. Thus, 1) Since the Weave is the source for the Material plane, Mystra does not control magic accessed on any and all other planes 2) Thus, no restrictions on TRUE epic magic like she did on the material planes. You could revive the High Magic methods and bring back True 11th level spells...possibly come up with 12th level :P 3) Attempt to pull off what Vecna did at the end of 2e where he almost reshaped the multiverse ***He attempted to shape realms twice: He first attempted to reshape a particular reality by manipulating Tovag Baragu and it's ability to funnel infinite energy. He was stopped by Iuz and imprisoned in his Rotting Tower. The second attempt was on a much grander scale, where he BROKE into the City of Sigil and almost overthrew The Lady of Pain. However, he was stopped by the "party" in that campaign.
Orchomenos 08-15-07, 11:54 AM	If memory serves: 1) In Prince of Lies, Mystra effectively denied Cyric the ability to cast spells. I'm not sure though if it extended to his followers, but I don't think so. IMHO, she could very well do this on individual basis, but refrains to do so to keep the Balance (and avoid that all the Evil gods knock at her door the next morning to eviscerate her). 2) In Shadowdale, first part of the Avatars serie, Mystra (Mystra II, the then goddess of Magic), put a part of her essence in a star-shaped jewel and stuck it on Midnight chest. This is not an act of luck that Midnight became the next Mystra. ____ I have another question though. If Mystra dies, what would become the other gods of magic? Azuth, Savras & Velsharoon are all directly linked to Mystra, so they would pretty much be jobless (perhaps sending their CV to Ao, to fill the available position.) But Corellon is specifically the Elven god of Magic, and there are many Mulhorandi, Gnomish, Drowish deities with closely related portfolio. Would they all loose their own abilities?
zzo38 08-15-07, 12:48 PM	So basically if you want to kill Mystra and follow precedent you need to either: A. Find a way to go over the limits set in the weave and attack Mystra using Karsus's spell, which could cause an end to all weave based magic. or B. Get another god to kill her, as suggested above Shar should do. But if Shar kills Mystra then someone has to kill Shar as well so that shadow magic cannot bypass this lock... I have another question about Mystra: What do you do if you do not want Mystra to punish people who copy your rune?
Zebppir 08-15-07, 06:44 PM	I'm sure it has been stated in text that while Mystra can deny gods from accessing the Weave, she can't deny them from granting spells to followers (though she could prevent the followers from casting spells). There was an idea I came up with concerning part A, but according to the all know Jaerom Darkwind, it is not allowed...by the standard rules from older editions. Thus, if you are the DM you can CHOOSE to void this and in turn consider what I came up with. It is SPECIFICALLY stated that Weave is the source of magic ON THE MATERIAL PLANE. NOT THE OUTER PLANES. Thus, 1) Since the Weave is the source for the Material plane, Mystra does not control magic accessed on any and all other planes 2) Thus, no restrictions on TRUE epic magic like she did on the material planes. You could revive the High Magic methods and bring back True 11th level spells...possibly come up with 12th level :P 3) Attempt to pull off what Vecna did at the end of 2e where he almost reshaped the multiverse ***He attempted to shape realms twice: He first attempted to reshape a particular reality by manipulating Tovag Baragu and it's ability to funnel infinite energy. He was stopped by Iuz and imprisoned in his Rotting Tower. The second attempt was on a much grander scale, where he BROKE into the City of Sigil and almost overthrew The Lady of Pain. However, he was stopped by the "party" in that campaign. Vecna didn't break in to sigil the lady of pain let him in for reasons that have yet come to light besides if he broke in he would be dead in one round since there is no way to negate the lady of pain attacks and she clearly killed a greater god when he upset the balance so it safe to say the lady wanted him in sigil
Chanmanm8 08-15-07, 08:49 PM	Vecna didn't break in to sigil the lady of pain let him in for reasons that have yet come to light besides if he broke in he would be dead in one round since there is no way to negate the lady of pain attacks and she clearly killed a greater god when he upset the balance so it safe to say the lady wanted him in sigil I just got the materials. Here's a tid bit on page 123 of Die Vecna Die to correct you (P.S., Vecna was being aided by The Serpent, an overpower described as an equal to The Lady; Both of these overpowers supposedly once belonged to "the Ancient Brethren"): Quote 1 Getting to Sigil via Ravenloft Vecna has absorbed the essence of luz, and he is on his way to full godly ascension. Drawing on knowledge imparted by the Serpent and energized by his growing divinity, Vecna contorts the misty fabric of Ravenloft itself, using it to bridge the gap between the prison plane and the City of Doors. Bypassing wards set by a power equal to the Serpent, Vecna the Divine arrives in Sigil despite the ban against gods, which has stood for time immemorial. Player characters and NPCs who possess the Hand of Vecna or any minor Vecnan relic are invariably drawn over the collapsing rift in Vecna's wake. Here's an aside they put in while talking about that in the Campaign Module: Breaking the Ban (Die Vecna Die page 123) Vecna can't go to Sigil. Sigil is warded against the entry of gods. But Vecna, incarnating as a true Power, is in Sigil—what gives? It comes down to a confluence of unique circumstances engineered and nurtured by Vecna. His plan (see Adventure Background) took an age to formulate, and another to execute. Informed by the very force of magic itself, Vecna wove a tapestry of detail, arcane props, and raw power that deposited him in the City of Doors, despite its age-long ward enforced by the enigmatic Lady of Pain. In a sense, Vecna cheated. Though he stole the power of another god, luz, to catalyze his own full ascension, Vecna's power waxed over a period of time—at the moment he stepped into Sigil, he wasn't strictly a demigod or a god. Moreover, Vecna didn't use a portal created by Sigil's protector, the Lady of Pain, to enter the city. Instead, he used his unique position as a waxing power in the Demiplane of Dread. Taking advantage of its unique properties, Vecna warped, twisted, and forced the entire plane into a wholly new configuration. That temporary contortion was the funnel that punched a doorway for Vecna into the Sigil. After all, as a student of the Serpent knows, Sigil is the founding stone of the multiverse, upon which the current planar structure is built and buttressed. NEXT 2 quotes discuss the war of will and strain on both Vecna AND The Lady Vecna under Fire While Vecna cannot view the heroes until they reacharea 28, their implied threat immediately appears to thewaxing god as he physically senses them for the first time. Because of their immunity to his direct power and enhanced abilities to affect him, Vecna is concerned. Combine these facts with Vecna's compromised situation, and it's easy to understand though he is a god, Vecna knows real fear at the heroes' arrival. Vecna is compromised because, though he approaches true godhood, his ability to channel power remains limited by his position in Sigil. He can't summon limitless minions due to the ward against planar travel to and from the city, and most of the constant portals are inoperative. Moreover, he must continue to exert a large portion of his total power to remain in Sigil at all, due to the constant pressure the Lady of Pain applies. (The Lady appropriately bestows this pressure in the form of hideous agony, which Vecna constantly neutralizes with a counterflow of his own power.) Thus, it is difficult for Vecna to create minions out of whole cloth without preparation and concentration. Nor can he maintain more than a single avatar, which is the focus of his power in Sigil. Therefore, the Whispered One relies on those he has already converted. Even if heroes get the upper hand, Vecna can't give up his place in Sigil, lest all his plans go for naught. So, even if forced into melee with the heroes (the only way he can directly affect them), he will not flee. As for the Lady not "going all out" in her "true form" or OverPowers: Die Vecna Die page 130 The Lady of Pain and a coterie of her dabus servants stand before the Armory, staring mutely as many of the most powerful individuals and entities remaining in Sigil attempt the invisible magical ward set up around the fortress by Vecna, and for the most part, fail. Though legend suggests that the Lady of Pain once belonged to the Ancient Brethren, among whom the Serpent also numbers, she still faces a quandary with Vecna's presence. The longer Vecna remains, the more unsteady the celestial ring under Sigil becomes. Should that fulcrum finally collapse, so also will the current shape and order of the multiverse. In fact, permanent damage has already occurred. But, should the Lady loose the wards that prevent other gods entry, so that they might put a stop to Vecna's machinations, their very presence would bring down the multiverse that much sooner. In like manner, should the Lady reveal herself in her true form in all its aching majesty to do battle with the waxing god, the multiverse would come undone like a mobile whose strings are simultaneously severed. So, she waits. Heroes have many options, including turning around and leaving, approaching the Lady of Pain, intermingling with the army, approaching the Armory directly (which probably includes intermingling with the army first), or just standing and watching for a while. It is stated that if she were to use even a tiny bit of her Overpowers, or call in other gods, the rate of deterioration of the ring would increase exponentially. If the party is having trouble defeating Vecna and time is running out (there is a time limit of sorts), it says to suggest that she would decide to take the risk and send in 4 to 5 demigods to help the party lol.
Zebppir 08-15-07, 09:11 PM	I just got the materials. Here's a tid bit on page 123 of Die Vecna Die to correct you (P.S., Vecna was being aided by The Serpent, an overpower described as an equal to The Lady; Both of these overpowers supposedly once belonged to "the Ancient Brethren"): Quote 1 Here's an aside they put in while talking about that in the Campaign Module: NEXT 2 quotes discuss the war of will and strain on both Vecna AND The Lady As for the Lady not "going all out" in her "true form" or OverPowers: It is stated that if she were to use even a tiny bit of her Overpowers, or call in other gods, the rate of deterioration of the ring would increase exponentially. If the party is having trouble defeating Vecna and time is running out (there is a time limit of sorts), it says to suggest that she would decide to take the risk and send in 4 to 5 demigods to help the party lol. yet she is mute as she speaks the true language I yeild
Chanmanm8 08-15-07, 09:17 PM	yet she is mute as she speaks the true language I yeild She isn't mute. She actually speaks (which according to the module she hasn't done in several millenia): Repercussions (page 152) With Vecna's defeat, the reverberations of a dissolving multiverse cease. The Lady of Pain reopens Sigil's portals. The City of Doors launches into a week-long festival, sure to be reenacted on a regular basis. Unfortunately, Vecna has successfully tested Sigil's wards, showing a way for other power-mad deities to find entry. Thus, the Lady of Pain, a confidant or perhaps even peer to the Serpent, speaks in the Language Primeval (the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren, in which the three words of Creation Once Spoken were uttered). Uttering her words, while standing in the crux of the multiverse known as Sigil, she reorders reality. Uttering her words, the only words spoken by her in the last several millennia. Uttering her words, she attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace.
Ohtar Turinson 08-15-07, 09:56 PM	As a Planescape supporter, I wish it to be noted that there is some doubt about the canon status of the module Die Vecna Die, seeing as that series kinda screwed up a number of settings and it's largely been ignored since then.
Chanmanm8 08-15-07, 10:48 PM	As a Planescape supporter, I wish it to be noted that there is some doubt about the canon status of the module Die Vecna Die, seeing as that series kinda screwed up a number of settings and it's largely been ignored since then. It was the effects of that campaign that were to allow the "changes" in the system...herego change from 2e to 3e (similar to how Mystra's death and resurrection where she changed how magic functioned in Faerun from 2e to 3e).
ArcTan 08-16-07, 02:04 AM	It was the effects of that campaign that were to allow the "changes" in the system...herego change from 2e to 3e (similar to how Mystra's death and resurrection where she changed how magic functioned in Faerun from 2e to 3e). The Time of Troubles makes a lot more sense than Die, Vecna, Die!, though, in terms of how that was made to happen. Die, Vecna, Die! basically has no metaphysics behind the game system changes other than "Well, a lot of impossible things happened, and as a result stuff changed in all these kind of subtle but mostly random ways that happen to align with game-mechanical changes to the new ruleset". I can't think of any *reason* Vecna's exploits would turn Shadow from a demiplane into a full-fledged transitive plane, or collapse the paraelemental planes, or remove the Sphere restrictions on clerics' magic, or cause there to be a new kind of mage who uses Charisma to cast spells spontaneously, or give Faerun a completely new set of planes that looks like the old one but is arranged differently, or whatever.
zuul88 08-16-07, 03:14 AM	Actually, both psionics and divine magic depend on the Weave, so these would be disrupted. This is one of the reasons Mystra is considered so powerful: she can deny magic even to most followers of other gods. You're right about the Shadow Weave, though; that would continue to work undisturbed, and it remains the only loophole in Mystra's Deny Weave SDA. As it has already been been pointed out from PgtF, using the Time of Troubles psionics is Completely Unaffected! That is the whole back story to "Kimmuriel Oblodra" his house tried to become 1st House because they were Psionic. Magic came back just in time and they were obliterated, he was the only surivior. So Canon and Rulebook says you are One Million Percent Wrong!!! Respect Nathan
Chanmanm8 08-16-07, 10:41 PM	The Time of Troubles makes a lot more sense than Die, Vecna, Die!, though, in terms of how that was made to happen. Die, Vecna, Die! basically has no metaphysics behind the game system changes other than "Well, a lot of impossible things happened, and as a result stuff changed in all these kind of subtle but mostly random ways that happen to align with game-mechanical changes to the new ruleset". I can't think of any *reason* Vecna's exploits would turn Shadow from a demiplane into a full-fledged transitive plane, or collapse the paraelemental planes, or remove the Sphere restrictions on clerics' magic, or cause there to be a new kind of mage who uses Charisma to cast spells spontaneously, or give Faerun a completely new set of planes that looks like the old one but is arranged differently, or whatever. It was because Vecna disrupted Sigil. The books say gods are banned due to Sigil being the "heart" of the multivers, resting an a folcrum. Divine Energy disrupts and erodes the balance and as such, damage was done due to Vecna's presence alone, nevermind his actions to manipulate the area. It was said: Repercussions (page 152) With Vecna's defeat, the reverberations of a dissolving multiverse cease. The Lady of Pain reopens Sigil's portals. The City of Doors launches into a week-long festival, sure to be reenacted on a regular basis. Unfortunately, Vecna has successfully tested Sigil's wards, showing a way for other power-mad deities to find entry. Thus, the Lady of Pain, a confidant or perhaps even peer to the Serpent, speaks in the Language Primeval (the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren, in which the three words of Creation Once Spoken were uttered). Uttering her words, while standing in the crux of the multiverse known as Sigil, she reorders reality. Uttering her words, the only words spoken by her in the last several millennia, she shores up Sigil's wards against entry by deities. Uttering her words, she attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace. Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed, and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again.
ArcTan 08-17-07, 12:43 AM	I do remember this, yes (if vaguely), but it only shores up my point. A bunch of random crap happens because Vecna is there, none of it is really explained, and it's all just very conveniently tied to changes in 3e. None of the things you name really clearly lines up with any of the actual metaphysical changes in 3e, for instance.
nick012000 08-18-07, 04:34 AM	Actually, that's not entirely true. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. While most outer planes are fine (in the Great Wheel, at least), the Inner Planes were radically altered with the removal of the para- and quasi-elemental planes. Moreover,the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed, and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Witness all the variant campaign settings. Notably, Shadow becomes a full-fledged transitive plane leading between them. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Bye-bye, Modrons! Hello, inevitables! Some common spells begin to work differently. Yep. The changes do not occur immediately, 3.5! but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again. Hooray for hyperbole! As for the original topic... you just need a level 20 Artificer to get within 60 feet of her undetected (somehow), pull out a Staff of Blasphemy, and use UMD to emulate a CL in the 70s to blast her into smithereens. Then proceed to repeat the process to blast all of her Chosen into smithereens before they ascend. It's how the Min/Max board killed Tiamat.
ArcTan 08-19-07, 02:19 PM	As for the original topic... you just need a level 20 Artificer to get within 60 feet of her undetected (somehow), pull out a Staff of Blasphemy, and use UMD to emulate a CL in the 70s to blast her into smithereens. Then proceed to repeat the process to blast all of her Chosen into smithereens before they ascend. It's how the Min/Max board killed Tiamat. Artificers don't exist in Forgotten Realms. They're from Eberron. Eberron deities have protected themselves from this kind of cruel trick by cleverly refusing to exist.