How to obtain Godhood/ what happens after? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How to obtain Godhood/ what happens after? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TVLLestatTVL
05-07-07, 02:33 AM Sorry if i'm posting a topic that's been talked about over and over. I'm a little confused on the subject. I know it differs from DM to DM but, i'd like to hear some thoughts. I read in a thread don't remember which one. That after a group of adventurers kill a Deity they don't automatically become Deities of that domain. What makes a group of adventurers Deities after killing a Deity? Is there a certain type of trials for a Deity you might have ran in a Campaign? Also what happens after a group kills a Deity? What happens to the Domain, Followers, how does it stay in balance?
Rerecros
05-07-07, 02:36 AM I would never run a campain where obtaining godhood is an option, it pretty much is the end of the campain, what serious challenge can you present a party of gods?
Fireclave
05-07-07, 03:29 AM Short Answer: Ask your DM.

Long Answer: Barring campaign specific rulings, there are NO official rules for handling deities other then stating them out (and even those rules are entirely optional if you don't wish for your deities to have stats). There are plenty of suggestions in Deities and Demigods, but no official mechanics that say "In D&D, characters can become dieites by doing XYZ, which causes ABC to happen."
Khael
05-07-07, 08:50 AM That after a group of adventurers kill a Deity they don't automatically become Deities of that domain.

Correct, except under certain ruleset (like FR's where if you kills a god you gain his power.)

What makes a group of adventurers Deities after killing a Deity?
The DM. Nothing less, for the simple grounds of, as Rerecros said, what challenge is there once the party can kill gods off its own power?

Is there a certain type of trials for a Deity you might have ran in a Campaign? Also what happens after a group kills a Deity? What happens to the Domain, Followers, how does it stay in balance?

All this is DM choice again, since it depend on what they see a god as.
As for what happens after deity death, besides DM choice, its normally I think the gods (or an Overgod) choose and elevate either a mortal, quastideity, demigod, or another god to the dead ones duty.

Ultimately its still DM choice (Though my own opinion is: If you can kill a god 1) the game is probably over, or 2)(+1) its at least part Deux Ex machina and the god was the BBEG slain by a one shot artifact or spell, in which case the current campaign at least is likely over.
I should point out if you did kill a D&D generic god in a straight combat (no campaign plotline weapon or similar), I'd also assume 3) Your DM is either extremely bad, or playing to lose badly in the most unconvincing way, if a generic rules D&D god died to a party.

The above is solely my opinion though, and I use the term generic D&D god in the sense a homebrew set of god rules, or a plot-arc like the 'time of troubles', is a totally different thing, to me.)
Mirtek
05-07-07, 11:54 AM Correct, except under certain ruleset (like FR's where if you kills a god you gain his power.)
actually that's not completly correct: If you slay a deity in the FR setting (which is impossible for mortals without the aid of annother deity) you might take his place if Ao thinks this is a good idea. If he doesn't, the power of the slain deity simply goes to the existing deity with the portfolio closest to that of the slain deity.

So if mortals, with the aid of annother deity, slay Garagos they (more likely only one of them) might ascent to become a demigod of war or all the power simply goes straight to Tempus and the mortals get nothing but a fancy tale to tell in taverns
Kain Darkwind
05-07-07, 01:46 PM I'm pretty sure Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal got their power by asking Jergal for it. He divied up his portfolio between them because he was bored.

Similar to what Rerecros said, I would be careful before making PCs gods. Keep in mind the sense of challenge. If they are into interaction with NPCs and such, more so than any combat, it might be a very rewarding campaign. But if they are 'kick down the door' style players, it gets pretty boring playing a game where you rampage across everything. Like playing a video game with the godmode code on.
sciborg2
05-07-07, 06:36 PM Mystara had paths for becoming Immortals. I believe these were in the 1e Immortals Handbook. I think you had to pick an element: Earth/Matter, Fire/Energy, Air/Force, Water/Time.

The drow necro goddess became divine after killing off an entire world.

There's a god from Monster Mythology that I believe is moving toward transcendence by dying through the four elements - crushed by earth, drowned in water, burned in fire, and finally dissolution in air.

Some people can become gods if they attract enough worshippers in life or enough emotion (could be fear, hatred, love, etc) I think this may have been what gave Vecna immortality.

In the Draconomicon the Dragon Ascendant PrC allows you to achieve DVR 0. Can't recall what's entailed though.
Lina_Inverse
05-08-07, 12:20 AM I would never run a campain where obtaining godhood is an option, it pretty much is the end of the campain, what serious challenge can you present a party of gods?

Other gods. Bigger dragons. Non-divine enititys from beyond time and space. Parties of adventurers of opposing alignments/pantheons. Attracting more worshipers(No one said it had to involve killing people and taking there stuff...). Reducing the number of worshipers of rival gods. Fathering hero-deities(It worked for zeus!). Trying to reclaim your mortality. Creating empires. Destroying empires. Destroying worlds.

You know, the usual.
sciborg2
05-08-07, 02:48 AM I've been working on my own path system for immortality, but so far I've only got the Path of Dreams and the Path of Thorns, ascension through spirit-journies and suffering respectively...

I'd love to see a good system for playing gods...DDG I think with some help from the ELH could work for quasi and demi deities but I think a new system is needed for those above that

Of course, in that case you're not playing D&D anymore, and likely something more like Risk...
TVLLestatTVL
05-09-07, 10:48 AM What's this DVR I hear about? How do you achieve a Divine Rating? What book is it in? Deities and DemiGods?
Witch
05-09-07, 10:51 AM Divine Rank is from Deities and Demigods and is also in the SRD.
TVLLestatTVL
05-09-07, 10:56 AM SRD? What does SRD stand for?
Witch
05-09-07, 10:58 AM System Reference Document.

www.d20srd.org

You can find it in a downloadable version on the WotC site.
Kursk
05-09-07, 12:14 PM It's an area of the game that is left totally to the DM. I don't go there as a DM.
sciborg2
05-09-07, 12:23 PM I think its important to establish beforehand what will happen after godhood. Will you be a demi/quasi/lesser/inter/greater god?
Will you just be immortal?
Lord Dracul
05-09-07, 01:11 PM actually that's not completly correct: If you slay a deity in the FR setting (which is impossible for mortals without the aid of annother deity) you might take his place if Ao thinks this is a good idea. If he doesn't, the power of the slain deity simply goes to the existing deity with the portfolio closest to that of the slain deity.

Not completely true.

SPOILER for those who have not read Lady Penitent: Sacrifice of the Widow.

Cavatina beheaded Selvetarm in the DemonWeb Pits, with the help of the Cresent Blade.
elondir
05-09-07, 01:20 PM My campaign requirements for divine rank 0 (very similar to the OD&D Immortals Handbook):

Must be at least 21st level.
Must have a patron deity of at least DvR 1 who guides you through the ritual.
Must have at least three ability scores above 20 without magical enhancements.
Must complete an epic quest worth at least 500,000 xp.
Requires Knowledge (Religion) 24 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 24 ranks.
Must establish your own church of true believers.
The final ritual is basically an epic spell that drains 35,000 XP from the character. This drain cannot lower the character's level (in other words you have to be at least 36th level and close to 37th). During the ritual, your patron deity makes you a proxy. After the ritual, the deity recalls the divine rank invested in you, and you have a permanent divine rank of 0 and a portfolio. As you gain followers, your divine rank goes up accordingly. Your divine rank can never go below zero short of the intervention of a being with divine rank greater than 15, or by decision by other deities in your pantheon (determined by whatever means the DM decides).

Being a deity means that you will have to further your portfolio and occasionally deal with pantheon business. Also your enemies will generally also have a divine rank.

I should note that I've never actualy used these rules, because no campaign I've ever run has gotten far enough.
darkhellion21
05-09-07, 02:05 PM I also agree with Lord Dracul. The way I understood it, Ao doesn't care about who gains or loses divine powers. The Time of Troubles was the only event (that I've read of) that Ao he directly decided who became a god other than at the formation of the world.

Originally posted by sciborg2
I think its important to establish beforehand what will happen after godhood. Will you be a demi/quasi/lesser/inter/greater god?
Will you just be immortal?

At DVR 0, you are a quasi- or hero deity, and yes you gain immortality. It's in the SRD, if you want to look it up.
TVLLestatTVL
05-09-07, 03:21 PM Does the SRD talk about what a portfolio is? And how to gain followers? I've only skimmed over it so far haven't had a chance to read it further yet.
darkhellion21
05-09-07, 05:58 PM From the SRD: A portfolio is the aspect of mortal existance that the deity has power over.

As to the second question, I think the simplest way to explain gaining followers is that "you (the deity)" do things for people and the receivers of your generous gifts (being mortal and incapable of achieving anything close to your divine acomplishments) follow your set out instructions on how to live their lives so that they will continue to receive your blessings. :angelhide
FWHGilby
05-09-07, 06:38 PM I love these type of threads. They are of great interest to the campaign I am in. There was a deity war and some deities are in hibernation or dead creating a vaccum of sorts. My character is part Astral Deva, another pc is balor/solar(don't ask), another is throne archon(not full yet), another is powerful 1/2dragon sorcerer. All of the characters want and strive to become deities of some sort though we have not recieved any particular path. I think the party's accomplishment of killing an avatar or demigod whatever it was was a step in right direction.
TVLLestatTVL
05-10-07, 01:43 AM How do you gain Avatar status? Is that Divine Rank 21+? In the quasi, semi- deity category? Or is this something different? Also what makes per say one of your followers an Avatar?
Amon_WinterfallIV
05-10-07, 02:38 AM I don't view DR 0 as being a god, so much as candidacy for being a god. At this point, I've a few ideas of how to Achieve DR 0:
--A Magic Spell requiring a Level 29+ caster
--A great favor from a deity
--The combined souls of one thousand victims
--An ritual draining 20,000 XP and 1,000,000 GP worth of materials, as well as a DC 60 knowledge religion or arcana check.

Note that this endeavor doesn't actually make you a god. And there is no "lower limit" to when you can get DR 0--simply being a half god would suffice.

I believe that the cutoff for getting DR 1 is probably 15th level. A DR 1/15th level character is probably epic.

Getting DR 1 is going to be way more difficult than getting DR 0. You'd need to consider other methods, such as:
--Gather 1,000 fanatical worshipers.
--A power agreement with another deity or stealing their divine essence.
--A Transcendent act: creating a new world (via Genesis++) or destroying one.
--A great tapping: reach and link yourself to the cores of the inner planes and achieve apotheosis through the merging of these energies (provided you survive)

For a DR 0, life probably would be 'special' but still understandable. A DR 0 is invulnerable to mundane deaths and can live forever, but DR 0 can be taken away and death is still a very real outcome for a divine candidate. DR 1 is an excellent goal for a DR 0 creature, but mundane goals would still exist.

A DR 1 is tied to the fabric of the multiverse as the price of their power. They have an obligation to protect it--to honor their portfolio. Beyond simple power brokering, a DR 1 is not strong enough to change the planes (rapidly) and so is not "top dog" in the cosmology. They also face a crew of epics and near epics out to take their place from below (or in the case of epics, greater matches than themselves). In addition to survival and protecting their portfolio, achieving DR 2 is probably a daunting goal, even though it is probably "much more of the same" to a DR 1.
Amon_WinterfallIV
05-10-07, 02:41 AM How do you gain Avatar status? Is that Divine Rank 21+? In the quasi, semi- deity category? Or is this something different? Also what makes per say one of your followers an Avatar?

Avatar is actually a copy of the deity that has lower divine rank that is sent to handle a very important task. You can't become an Avatar.

You might be thinking of a proxy--a flunky god that serves a higher power. They tend to be DR 1 (but they might well be any DR less than the deity proper)
TVLLestatTVL
05-10-07, 04:04 AM Avatar is actually a copy of the deity that has lower divine rank that is sent to handle a very important task. You can't become an Avatar.

You might be thinking of a proxy--a flunky god that serves a higher power. They tend to be DR 1 (but they might well be any DR less than the deity proper)

Does that mean an Deity can dump a number of it's DVR into an avatar? Or can Avatars only achieve a DVR of 1 like proxies given from it's Deity?
forsaken1111
05-10-07, 08:47 AM Does that mean an Deity can dump a number of it's DVR into an avatar? Or can Avatars only achieve a DVR of 1 like proxies given from it's Deity?

I don't think its a 1 for 1 transfer. You should read through the book.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TVLLestatTVL 05-07-07, 02:33 AM	Sorry if i'm posting a topic that's been talked about over and over. I'm a little confused on the subject. I know it differs from DM to DM but, i'd like to hear some thoughts. I read in a thread don't remember which one. That after a group of adventurers kill a Deity they don't automatically become Deities of that domain. What makes a group of adventurers Deities after killing a Deity? Is there a certain type of trials for a Deity you might have ran in a Campaign? Also what happens after a group kills a Deity? What happens to the Domain, Followers, how does it stay in balance?
Rerecros 05-07-07, 02:36 AM	I would never run a campain where obtaining godhood is an option, it pretty much is the end of the campain, what serious challenge can you present a party of gods?
Fireclave 05-07-07, 03:29 AM	Short Answer: Ask your DM. Long Answer: Barring campaign specific rulings, there are NO official rules for handling deities other then stating them out (and even those rules are entirely optional if you don't wish for your deities to have stats). There are plenty of suggestions in Deities and Demigods, but no official mechanics that say "In D&D, characters can become dieites by doing XYZ, which causes ABC to happen."
Khael 05-07-07, 08:50 AM	That after a group of adventurers kill a Deity they don't automatically become Deities of that domain. Correct, except under certain ruleset (like FR's where if you kills a god you gain his power.) What makes a group of adventurers Deities after killing a Deity? The DM. Nothing less, for the simple grounds of, as Rerecros said, what challenge is there once the party can kill gods off its own power? Is there a certain type of trials for a Deity you might have ran in a Campaign? Also what happens after a group kills a Deity? What happens to the Domain, Followers, how does it stay in balance? All this is DM choice again, since it depend on what they see a god as. As for what happens after deity death, besides DM choice, its normally I think the gods (or an Overgod) choose and elevate either a mortal, quastideity, demigod, or another god to the dead ones duty. Ultimately its still DM choice (Though my own opinion is: If you can kill a god 1) the game is probably over, or 2)(+1) its at least part Deux Ex machina and the god was the BBEG slain by a one shot artifact or spell, in which case the current campaign at least is likely over. I should point out if you did kill a D&D generic god in a straight combat (no campaign plotline weapon or similar), I'd also assume 3) Your DM is either extremely bad, or playing to lose badly in the most unconvincing way, if a generic rules D&D god died to a party. The above is solely my opinion though, and I use the term generic D&D god in the sense a homebrew set of god rules, or a plot-arc like the 'time of troubles', is a totally different thing, to me.)
Mirtek 05-07-07, 11:54 AM	Correct, except under certain ruleset (like FR's where if you kills a god you gain his power.) actually that's not completly correct: If you slay a deity in the FR setting (which is impossible for mortals without the aid of annother deity) you might take his place if Ao thinks this is a good idea. If he doesn't, the power of the slain deity simply goes to the existing deity with the portfolio closest to that of the slain deity. So if mortals, with the aid of annother deity, slay Garagos they (more likely only one of them) might ascent to become a demigod of war or all the power simply goes straight to Tempus and the mortals get nothing but a fancy tale to tell in taverns
Kain Darkwind 05-07-07, 01:46 PM	I'm pretty sure Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal got their power by asking Jergal for it. He divied up his portfolio between them because he was bored. Similar to what Rerecros said, I would be careful before making PCs gods. Keep in mind the sense of challenge. If they are into interaction with NPCs and such, more so than any combat, it might be a very rewarding campaign. But if they are 'kick down the door' style players, it gets pretty boring playing a game where you rampage across everything. Like playing a video game with the godmode code on.
sciborg2 05-07-07, 06:36 PM	Mystara had paths for becoming Immortals. I believe these were in the 1e Immortals Handbook. I think you had to pick an element: Earth/Matter, Fire/Energy, Air/Force, Water/Time. The drow necro goddess became divine after killing off an entire world. There's a god from Monster Mythology that I believe is moving toward transcendence by dying through the four elements - crushed by earth, drowned in water, burned in fire, and finally dissolution in air. Some people can become gods if they attract enough worshippers in life or enough emotion (could be fear, hatred, love, etc) I think this may have been what gave Vecna immortality. In the Draconomicon the Dragon Ascendant PrC allows you to achieve DVR 0. Can't recall what's entailed though.
Lina_Inverse 05-08-07, 12:20 AM	I would never run a campain where obtaining godhood is an option, it pretty much is the end of the campain, what serious challenge can you present a party of gods? Other gods. Bigger dragons. Non-divine enititys from beyond time and space. Parties of adventurers of opposing alignments/pantheons. Attracting more worshipers(No one said it had to involve killing people and taking there stuff...). Reducing the number of worshipers of rival gods. Fathering hero-deities(It worked for zeus!). Trying to reclaim your mortality. Creating empires. Destroying empires. Destroying worlds. You know, the usual.
sciborg2 05-08-07, 02:48 AM	I've been working on my own path system for immortality, but so far I've only got the Path of Dreams and the Path of Thorns, ascension through spirit-journies and suffering respectively... I'd love to see a good system for playing gods...DDG I think with some help from the ELH could work for quasi and demi deities but I think a new system is needed for those above that Of course, in that case you're not playing D&D anymore, and likely something more like Risk...
TVLLestatTVL 05-09-07, 10:48 AM	What's this DVR I hear about? How do you achieve a Divine Rating? What book is it in? Deities and DemiGods?
Witch 05-09-07, 10:51 AM	Divine Rank is from Deities and Demigods and is also in the SRD.
TVLLestatTVL 05-09-07, 10:56 AM	SRD? What does SRD stand for?
Witch 05-09-07, 10:58 AM	System Reference Document. www.d20srd.org You can find it in a downloadable version on the WotC site.
Kursk 05-09-07, 12:14 PM	It's an area of the game that is left totally to the DM. I don't go there as a DM.
sciborg2 05-09-07, 12:23 PM	I think its important to establish beforehand what will happen after godhood. Will you be a demi/quasi/lesser/inter/greater god? Will you just be immortal?
Lord Dracul 05-09-07, 01:11 PM	actually that's not completly correct: If you slay a deity in the FR setting (which is impossible for mortals without the aid of annother deity) you might take his place if Ao thinks this is a good idea. If he doesn't, the power of the slain deity simply goes to the existing deity with the portfolio closest to that of the slain deity. Not completely true. SPOILER for those who have not read Lady Penitent: Sacrifice of the Widow. Cavatina beheaded Selvetarm in the DemonWeb Pits, with the help of the Cresent Blade.
elondir 05-09-07, 01:20 PM	My campaign requirements for divine rank 0 (very similar to the OD&D Immortals Handbook): Must be at least 21st level. Must have a patron deity of at least DvR 1 who guides you through the ritual. Must have at least three ability scores above 20 without magical enhancements. Must complete an epic quest worth at least 500,000 xp. Requires Knowledge (Religion) 24 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 24 ranks. Must establish your own church of true believers. The final ritual is basically an epic spell that drains 35,000 XP from the character. This drain cannot lower the character's level (in other words you have to be at least 36th level and close to 37th). During the ritual, your patron deity makes you a proxy. After the ritual, the deity recalls the divine rank invested in you, and you have a permanent divine rank of 0 and a portfolio. As you gain followers, your divine rank goes up accordingly. Your divine rank can never go below zero short of the intervention of a being with divine rank greater than 15, or by decision by other deities in your pantheon (determined by whatever means the DM decides). Being a deity means that you will have to further your portfolio and occasionally deal with pantheon business. Also your enemies will generally also have a divine rank. I should note that I've never actualy used these rules, because no campaign I've ever run has gotten far enough.
darkhellion21 05-09-07, 02:05 PM	I also agree with Lord Dracul. The way I understood it, Ao doesn't care about who gains or loses divine powers. The Time of Troubles was the only event (that I've read of) that Ao he directly decided who became a god other than at the formation of the world. Originally posted by sciborg2 I think its important to establish beforehand what will happen after godhood. Will you be a demi/quasi/lesser/inter/greater god? Will you just be immortal? At DVR 0, you are a quasi- or hero deity, and yes you gain immortality. It's in the SRD, if you want to look it up.
TVLLestatTVL 05-09-07, 03:21 PM	Does the SRD talk about what a portfolio is? And how to gain followers? I've only skimmed over it so far haven't had a chance to read it further yet.
darkhellion21 05-09-07, 05:58 PM	From the SRD: A portfolio is the aspect of mortal existance that the deity has power over. As to the second question, I think the simplest way to explain gaining followers is that "you (the deity)" do things for people and the receivers of your generous gifts (being mortal and incapable of achieving anything close to your divine acomplishments) follow your set out instructions on how to live their lives so that they will continue to receive your blessings. :angelhide
FWHGilby 05-09-07, 06:38 PM	I love these type of threads. They are of great interest to the campaign I am in. There was a deity war and some deities are in hibernation or dead creating a vaccum of sorts. My character is part Astral Deva, another pc is balor/solar(don't ask), another is throne archon(not full yet), another is powerful 1/2dragon sorcerer. All of the characters want and strive to become deities of some sort though we have not recieved any particular path. I think the party's accomplishment of killing an avatar or demigod whatever it was was a step in right direction.
TVLLestatTVL 05-10-07, 01:43 AM	How do you gain Avatar status? Is that Divine Rank 21+? In the quasi, semi- deity category? Or is this something different? Also what makes per say one of your followers an Avatar?
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-10-07, 02:38 AM	I don't view DR 0 as being a god, so much as candidacy for being a god. At this point, I've a few ideas of how to Achieve DR 0: --A Magic Spell requiring a Level 29+ caster --A great favor from a deity --The combined souls of one thousand victims --An ritual draining 20,000 XP and 1,000,000 GP worth of materials, as well as a DC 60 knowledge religion or arcana check. Note that this endeavor doesn't actually make you a god. And there is no "lower limit" to when you can get DR 0--simply being a half god would suffice. I believe that the cutoff for getting DR 1 is probably 15th level. A DR 1/15th level character is probably epic. Getting DR 1 is going to be way more difficult than getting DR 0. You'd need to consider other methods, such as: --Gather 1,000 fanatical worshipers. --A power agreement with another deity or stealing their divine essence. --A Transcendent act: creating a new world (via Genesis++) or destroying one. --A great tapping: reach and link yourself to the cores of the inner planes and achieve apotheosis through the merging of these energies (provided you survive) For a DR 0, life probably would be 'special' but still understandable. A DR 0 is invulnerable to mundane deaths and can live forever, but DR 0 can be taken away and death is still a very real outcome for a divine candidate. DR 1 is an excellent goal for a DR 0 creature, but mundane goals would still exist. A DR 1 is tied to the fabric of the multiverse as the price of their power. They have an obligation to protect it--to honor their portfolio. Beyond simple power brokering, a DR 1 is not strong enough to change the planes (rapidly) and so is not "top dog" in the cosmology. They also face a crew of epics and near epics out to take their place from below (or in the case of epics, greater matches than themselves). In addition to survival and protecting their portfolio, achieving DR 2 is probably a daunting goal, even though it is probably "much more of the same" to a DR 1.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-10-07, 02:41 AM	How do you gain Avatar status? Is that Divine Rank 21+? In the quasi, semi- deity category? Or is this something different? Also what makes per say one of your followers an Avatar? Avatar is actually a copy of the deity that has lower divine rank that is sent to handle a very important task. You can't become an Avatar. You might be thinking of a proxy--a flunky god that serves a higher power. They tend to be DR 1 (but they might well be any DR less than the deity proper)
TVLLestatTVL 05-10-07, 04:04 AM	Avatar is actually a copy of the deity that has lower divine rank that is sent to handle a very important task. You can't become an Avatar. You might be thinking of a proxy--a flunky god that serves a higher power. They tend to be DR 1 (but they might well be any DR less than the deity proper) Does that mean an Deity can dump a number of it's DVR into an avatar? Or can Avatars only achieve a DVR of 1 like proxies given from it's Deity?
forsaken1111 05-10-07, 08:47 AM	Does that mean an Deity can dump a number of it's DVR into an avatar? Or can Avatars only achieve a DVR of 1 like proxies given from it's Deity? I don't think its a 1 for 1 transfer. You should read through the book.