I don't "get" Gehenna [Archive] - Wizards Community

I don't "get" Gehenna [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Venerable Archmage
02-15-07, 03:03 PM I feel I have some appreciation of the underlying ethos of most of the Outer Planes, such as the trechery and confinement of Carceri, the madness of Pandemonium or the despair of Hades, and how this fits into the wheel of alignment. Gehenna, however, confuses me. The ethos attributed to it, of cruelty and selfishness, don't seem any more pronounced here than in any of the other Lower Planes.

Perhaps I'm just being dense, and don't see what's so cool about Gehenna as I do with most the other planes. My party's ended up going there (randomly decided after foolhard unresearched portal jumping) and I feel I ought to get a better feel for it.

Any feedback greatly appreciated.
Sorcen_Anenooata
02-15-07, 03:09 PM I havent really dealt with the plane much myself, only in the aspect that its the home of the 'loths. I agree it needs some elaboration, I believe Ripvanwormer did a great description of it awhile back somewhere that would help on the elaboration but I cant seem to remember where it was or what it said. If I find it I'll post the link.
Shemeska the Marauder
02-15-07, 03:16 PM Gehenna stands for the exploitation of the weak at the hands of the powerful, a place where laws and rules and heirarchy stands to justify this ruling order, but it's a hollow thing without substance. The powerful don't hold any intrinsic meaning into the order they claim, and Law itself is just another tool of oppression and one which is discarded the moment it ceases to be of use. They'll use Law, and its trappings, but they don't believe in it. Only power and greed matter. Order and structure is a lie, but it will be used as a tool to mold the will of the weak regardless.
PunkRockBard
02-16-07, 11:31 AM Shemeska put it nicely.

Here are some other aspects...think about a boss who treats his employees like poop. Overworks them, underpays them. A more severe examply is slavery. An 1800s plantation slavemaster who uses "law" as his power over slaves.

Organized crime is another great example of Gehenna. False loyalty and "brotherhood" to further one's own selfish agenda.

It isn't the all out "fascist dictatorship" of the Nine Hells. It is more neutral evil than lawful evil. The iron fist of The Nine Hells believe that its way is the right way. The iron fist of Gehenna is interested in its own gain, nothing else.

That help any?

This being said, i do agree that Gehenna needs a bit more fleshing out.
The Venerable Archmage
02-16-07, 03:53 PM These replies have been very helpful, thank you. I feel a bit more confident that I understand Gehenna now - law as a facade for doing evil. It actually makes Gehenna sound a worse place than Baator in some respects, which I guess it should be, being closer to the source.
sciborg2
02-16-07, 07:35 PM the source?
PunkRockBard
02-16-07, 07:38 PM Hades, i am assuming.

In its own way, Gehenna is the worst lower plane. That can be said for every lower plane, in their own ways.
ArcTan
02-16-07, 07:44 PM It's the classic Himmler/Goring distinction. What's worse, the Nazi who genuinely believes in the terrifying ideology of anti-Semitic fascism, the ideal of destroying all the inferior races in order to achieve some kind of apotheosis -- or the Nazi who's just an ass who doesn't really care one way or the other about race but enjoys the kind of power and wealth and comfort a place in the Nazi regime can give him?

The former is a Baatorian ideal. The latter is a Gehennan.
PunkRockBard
02-16-07, 07:57 PM We have a winner! Perfect.
The Venerable Archmage
02-16-07, 08:07 PM The Goerring / Himmler comparison is eloquently put.

Yes, by the way, I did mean Hades when I referred to the source of evil. I realise this may not be an accurate choice of words, but it is certainly the purest evil in the lower planes.
Shemeska the Marauder
02-16-07, 08:10 PM It's the classic Himmler/Goring distinction. What's worse, the Nazi who genuinely believes in the terrifying ideology of anti-Semitic fascism, the ideal of destroying all the inferior races in order to achieve some kind of apotheosis -- or the Nazi who's just an ass who doesn't really care one way or the other about race but enjoys the kind of power and wealth and comfort a place in the Nazi regime can give him?

The former is a Baatorian ideal. The latter is a Gehennan.

Bingo :)
Taeldrin Laesrash
02-17-07, 12:10 AM The Goerring / Himmler comparison is eloquently put.

Yes, by the way, I did mean Hades when I referred to the source of evil. I realise this may not be an accurate choice of words, but it is certainly the purest evil in the lower planes.

Every evil is pure in its own way.

Also, allow me to throw in my own example of Gehenna. The Reconstruction-era America had its fair share of corrupt systems. Under the contract system, many plantation owners cheated their workers out of the legally-assigned wages and continued to abuse their worker. The real kicker came from how workers could be punished for breaking the contract regardless of whatever the managers did. And that's not even getting into the Johnson and Grant-era corruption. It's that kind of abuse of the system.
sciborg2
02-17-07, 12:17 AM Here I was, trying to stir up a wee bit of debate. ;) But good analogy.
Xaxor
02-17-07, 10:17 PM Huh. Godwin.
navar100
02-19-07, 03:01 AM For some trivia:

"Gehenna" comes from Judaism. It is not in the Torah, but rather it's from Jewish mysticism. It is said it was created on the Second day, because God did not say "And it was good" like all the other days when the Second day ended. Unlike Christian Hell it is not a place of eternal damnation, with the almost exception of Korah. Korah is the Jew who led in the construction of the Golden Calf. God was going to punish him in Gehenna for eternity, but Moses prayed he be released into Heaven when the Messiah arrives, and God agreed.

It is not a happy place. Its purpose is to burn away a soul's sins so it can enter heaven. I guess it's like Christian Purgatory. The fires of Gehenaa are turned off on the Sabbath so that even on the sabbath everyone rests. I don't recall if it was Adam, Abraham, or Moses who prayed for this. THe fires were original intended to stay lit for eternity.

Not everyone goes to Gehenna first. While Judaism does believe in the punishments of Adam and Eve, there was never an Original Sin Christians believed Jesus absolved. The punishments God gave to Adam and Eve and their decendants (us) were meant for This World only, ending in death. It is said Jacob's son Benjamin was the only man ever not to have committed any sin such that only the punishment of Adam meant he had to die.

Gehenna is for those who committed Great Sin and did not repent. God knows Man is not perfect. God wants Man to repent before death, but his soul can do so after death as well. You are not denied Heaven for Minor sinning. What's a Great Sin and what is Minor I cannot say, but what is Great should be obvious.

Also, in Jewish Thought you do not have to be Jewish to receive God's Love and enter Heaven. "The Righteous of all nations have a place in the World To Come." Judaism does believe God and the Children of Israel have a special relationship, but God also loves all his Children.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
02-19-07, 04:47 AM Funny, every Jewish bit about Gehenna I've read states it was a garbage dump.
sciborg2
02-19-07, 09:45 AM ^^true, but I like mystic version better. Heck, now only if there was mythology to spice up New Jersey...I kid! I kid! ;)
Return of the Flumph
02-20-07, 01:33 AM Either hell was named after the refuse pit, or the refuse pit was named after the Jewish hell. Either way, Gehenna can mean both.
savant_warlord13
02-20-07, 04:03 PM ^^true, but I like mystic version better. Heck, now only if there was mythology to spice up New Jersey...I kid! I kid! ;)

You'd better kid... :ahem:
lint trap
02-20-07, 04:23 PM Here is a site I used a lot back in my Planescape days. It has good descriptions of planar philosophies, and while I don't always agree with them, they're great for getting the flavor right.

http://www.pathguy.com/gehenna.htm
The Venerable Archmage
02-20-07, 05:11 PM That's a good website, actually. I bookmarked it ages ago, but it was deleted by computer error and I had forgotten about it. Thanks!
Melpomene
02-20-07, 05:22 PM Gehenna is also a plane of... well, pain. Not only do the denizens want to hurt you (oh, and they do), but the plane itself is ready to cause you whatever pains and discomforts it can. hard, jagged rocks just out every surface, rolling tongues of lava swerve to interset unfortunate travellers, acidic clouds release downpours of hideous toxic goo.

There is an undercurrent of torture and violence which seeps into the very rocks and stones themselves.
Singer_of_the_Song
02-21-07, 01:22 PM Speaking of torture...stop on by the citadel of Melif the Lich-Lord.

He's always ready for more...experiments...
Singer_of_the_Song
02-21-07, 01:23 PM ^^true, but I like mystic version better. Heck, now only if there was mythology to spice up New Jersey...I kid! I kid! ;)

The Jersey Devil...stat that beast up!

Quite joking.
PunkRockBard
02-21-07, 06:57 PM Def. the Lich-Lord :).

All in all....these interpretations of Gehenna are spot-on...and more descriptive than DND has really ever been with the plane, which just labels it "merciless" (aren't all the lower planes?) and makes it into a Yugoloth expansion.
The_Fan
02-21-07, 07:22 PM Another good source was a mimir.net essay on the philosophies of all the planes, along with a rebuttal. From the section on Gehenna:

"Hierarchies are only useful so you know where to aim next. Work your way into power, and guard your back. If you can achieve power, so can others. Give nothing away, for gifts only weaken your position. You have to fight for what you deserve, so make sure others have to do the same. Take what you can from other people. Weakening others can only strengthen yourself. Anything that will let you get ahead has got to be good. Earn people's trust, as this gives you power over them. Let nobody do the same to you. See the selfish motives behind everyone's actions, and be happy you are careful."
PunkRockBard
02-21-07, 10:03 PM Great.

This brings in another example....people who are ruthlessly ambitious...and will step on and turn their backs on anyone in their way. Thus the entire "climb the harsh volcano" metaphor of the plane.
ArcTan
02-21-07, 10:27 PM Either hell was named after the refuse pit, or the refuse pit was named after the Jewish hell. Either way, Gehenna can mean both.

The former. It's originally a place-name, just as the Greek Olympus is named after a real mountain. In the Tanakh it's never referred to as anything but a place -- the afterlife version of Gehenna is a metaphor that we start seeing in the Second Temple period. Jesus is just one of many Jewish preachers who uses Gehenna to mean the place of suffering the wicked went to after death, but his version is the one that's survived and become, in the New Testament and the church traditions it spawned, the Christian idea of Hell.

Navar100 is describing the similar-but-different rabbinic traditions of Gehenna that developed in Judaism, which are similar but interpret Gehenna as temporary in a way that Jesus' teachings imply he didn't (which became the teachings of the "eternal lake of fire" in John's Revelation, etc.) -- more akin to the Catholic idea of Purgatory than Hell. I'm not sure that navar100's argument that *no one* can be kept in Gehenna for eternity goes unchallenged within Judaism, though -- I'm sure I've heard otherwise.

Note that this concept of "Gehenna" doesn't directly translate into anything in particular in D&D and could apply to the Lower Planes in general -- anywhere where bad people go. The reason the D&D folks named the LE/E Outer Plane Gehenna was probably just that they were using as many random synonyms for "Hell" as they could, and they wanted a synonym for Hell that fit the theme of a fiery, burning, ever-changing landscape. (Gehenna was a place where garbage was burned in fires, and the first place fire is really seen as a central image for the afterlife of the wicked in Judeo-Christian tradition. Before then the Jewish afterlife wasn't described in any more detail than as being Sheol, "the grave", and a sort of dreary formless place akin to the Greek Hades -- and often written as "Hades" in Greek renderings of the Scriptures, including the New Testament.)
Melpomene
02-22-07, 05:01 PM Great.

This brings in another example....people who are ruthlessly ambitious...and will step on and turn their backs on anyone in their way. Thus the entire "climb the harsh volcano" metaphor of the plane.

Don't (ever) confuse ambition with a desire for power. Gehennans don't actually want power. They like it. They don't 'want' it. As The_Fan said, power is nothing more than a great way to put a really big target on your head.
The 'loths opperate through subterfuge and fear. To a 'loth, all that matters is is the subjugation of others. They want to make everyone else feel worse. By building a pyramid of suffering around themself, it seems like a ziggurat, but these are not the trappings of power that the devils enjoy.

'lolths, and the plane they live in, are wraught of torment. Inside them is a rolling flush of unquenchable hatred and voilence. They should not be called sadists, for sadists enjoy what they do. The 'loth does not. Their heart is full of ceaseless, unrelenting malace that no amount of release can suppress.
PunkRockBard
02-23-07, 11:20 PM I'd agree about the 'loths. Their natures are hollow and hateful...a reflection of The Gray Waste of Hades. Nonetheless..i said -ruthless-ambition. Those who severely hurt others to gain power, then use that power to harm the weak...Gehenna might be the place for them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Venerable Archmage 02-15-07, 03:03 PM	I feel I have some appreciation of the underlying ethos of most of the Outer Planes, such as the trechery and confinement of Carceri, the madness of Pandemonium or the despair of Hades, and how this fits into the wheel of alignment. Gehenna, however, confuses me. The ethos attributed to it, of cruelty and selfishness, don't seem any more pronounced here than in any of the other Lower Planes. Perhaps I'm just being dense, and don't see what's so cool about Gehenna as I do with most the other planes. My party's ended up going there (randomly decided after foolhard unresearched portal jumping) and I feel I ought to get a better feel for it. Any feedback greatly appreciated.
Sorcen_Anenooata 02-15-07, 03:09 PM	I havent really dealt with the plane much myself, only in the aspect that its the home of the 'loths. I agree it needs some elaboration, I believe Ripvanwormer did a great description of it awhile back somewhere that would help on the elaboration but I cant seem to remember where it was or what it said. If I find it I'll post the link.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-15-07, 03:16 PM	Gehenna stands for the exploitation of the weak at the hands of the powerful, a place where laws and rules and heirarchy stands to justify this ruling order, but it's a hollow thing without substance. The powerful don't hold any intrinsic meaning into the order they claim, and Law itself is just another tool of oppression and one which is discarded the moment it ceases to be of use. They'll use Law, and its trappings, but they don't believe in it. Only power and greed matter. Order and structure is a lie, but it will be used as a tool to mold the will of the weak regardless.
PunkRockBard 02-16-07, 11:31 AM	Shemeska put it nicely. Here are some other aspects...think about a boss who treats his employees like poop. Overworks them, underpays them. A more severe examply is slavery. An 1800s plantation slavemaster who uses "law" as his power over slaves. Organized crime is another great example of Gehenna. False loyalty and "brotherhood" to further one's own selfish agenda. It isn't the all out "fascist dictatorship" of the Nine Hells. It is more neutral evil than lawful evil. The iron fist of The Nine Hells believe that its way is the right way. The iron fist of Gehenna is interested in its own gain, nothing else. That help any? This being said, i do agree that Gehenna needs a bit more fleshing out.
The Venerable Archmage 02-16-07, 03:53 PM	These replies have been very helpful, thank you. I feel a bit more confident that I understand Gehenna now - law as a facade for doing evil. It actually makes Gehenna sound a worse place than Baator in some respects, which I guess it should be, being closer to the source.
sciborg2 02-16-07, 07:35 PM	the source?
PunkRockBard 02-16-07, 07:38 PM	Hades, i am assuming. In its own way, Gehenna is the worst lower plane. That can be said for every lower plane, in their own ways.
ArcTan 02-16-07, 07:44 PM	It's the classic Himmler/Goring distinction. What's worse, the Nazi who genuinely believes in the terrifying ideology of anti-Semitic fascism, the ideal of destroying all the inferior races in order to achieve some kind of apotheosis -- or the Nazi who's just an ass who doesn't really care one way or the other about race but enjoys the kind of power and wealth and comfort a place in the Nazi regime can give him? The former is a Baatorian ideal. The latter is a Gehennan.
PunkRockBard 02-16-07, 07:57 PM	We have a winner! Perfect.
The Venerable Archmage 02-16-07, 08:07 PM	The Goerring / Himmler comparison is eloquently put. Yes, by the way, I did mean Hades when I referred to the source of evil. I realise this may not be an accurate choice of words, but it is certainly the purest evil in the lower planes.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-16-07, 08:10 PM	It's the classic Himmler/Goring distinction. What's worse, the Nazi who genuinely believes in the terrifying ideology of anti-Semitic fascism, the ideal of destroying all the inferior races in order to achieve some kind of apotheosis -- or the Nazi who's just an ass who doesn't really care one way or the other about race but enjoys the kind of power and wealth and comfort a place in the Nazi regime can give him? The former is a Baatorian ideal. The latter is a Gehennan. Bingo :)
Taeldrin Laesrash 02-17-07, 12:10 AM	The Goerring / Himmler comparison is eloquently put. Yes, by the way, I did mean Hades when I referred to the source of evil. I realise this may not be an accurate choice of words, but it is certainly the purest evil in the lower planes. Every evil is pure in its own way. Also, allow me to throw in my own example of Gehenna. The Reconstruction-era America had its fair share of corrupt systems. Under the contract system, many plantation owners cheated their workers out of the legally-assigned wages and continued to abuse their worker. The real kicker came from how workers could be punished for breaking the contract regardless of whatever the managers did. And that's not even getting into the Johnson and Grant-era corruption. It's that kind of abuse of the system.
sciborg2 02-17-07, 12:17 AM	Here I was, trying to stir up a wee bit of debate. ;) But good analogy.
Xaxor 02-17-07, 10:17 PM	Huh. Godwin.
navar100 02-19-07, 03:01 AM	For some trivia: "Gehenna" comes from Judaism. It is not in the Torah, but rather it's from Jewish mysticism. It is said it was created on the Second day, because God did not say "And it was good" like all the other days when the Second day ended. Unlike Christian Hell it is not a place of eternal damnation, with the almost exception of Korah. Korah is the Jew who led in the construction of the Golden Calf. God was going to punish him in Gehenna for eternity, but Moses prayed he be released into Heaven when the Messiah arrives, and God agreed. It is not a happy place. Its purpose is to burn away a soul's sins so it can enter heaven. I guess it's like Christian Purgatory. The fires of Gehenaa are turned off on the Sabbath so that even on the sabbath everyone rests. I don't recall if it was Adam, Abraham, or Moses who prayed for this. THe fires were original intended to stay lit for eternity. Not everyone goes to Gehenna first. While Judaism does believe in the punishments of Adam and Eve, there was never an Original Sin Christians believed Jesus absolved. The punishments God gave to Adam and Eve and their decendants (us) were meant for This World only, ending in death. It is said Jacob's son Benjamin was the only man ever not to have committed any sin such that only the punishment of Adam meant he had to die. Gehenna is for those who committed Great Sin and did not repent. God knows Man is not perfect. God wants Man to repent before death, but his soul can do so after death as well. You are not denied Heaven for Minor sinning. What's a Great Sin and what is Minor I cannot say, but what is Great should be obvious. Also, in Jewish Thought you do not have to be Jewish to receive God's Love and enter Heaven. "The Righteous of all nations have a place in the World To Come." Judaism does believe God and the Children of Israel have a special relationship, but God also loves all his Children.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-19-07, 04:47 AM	Funny, every Jewish bit about Gehenna I've read states it was a garbage dump.
sciborg2 02-19-07, 09:45 AM	^^true, but I like mystic version better. Heck, now only if there was mythology to spice up New Jersey...I kid! I kid! ;)
Return of the Flumph 02-20-07, 01:33 AM	Either hell was named after the refuse pit, or the refuse pit was named after the Jewish hell. Either way, Gehenna can mean both.
savant_warlord13 02-20-07, 04:03 PM	^^true, but I like mystic version better. Heck, now only if there was mythology to spice up New Jersey...I kid! I kid! ;) You'd better kid... :ahem:
lint trap 02-20-07, 04:23 PM	Here is a site I used a lot back in my Planescape days. It has good descriptions of planar philosophies, and while I don't always agree with them, they're great for getting the flavor right. http://www.pathguy.com/gehenna.htm
The Venerable Archmage 02-20-07, 05:11 PM	That's a good website, actually. I bookmarked it ages ago, but it was deleted by computer error and I had forgotten about it. Thanks!
Melpomene 02-20-07, 05:22 PM	Gehenna is also a plane of... well, pain. Not only do the denizens want to hurt you (oh, and they do), but the plane itself is ready to cause you whatever pains and discomforts it can. hard, jagged rocks just out every surface, rolling tongues of lava swerve to interset unfortunate travellers, acidic clouds release downpours of hideous toxic goo. There is an undercurrent of torture and violence which seeps into the very rocks and stones themselves.
Singer_of_the_Song 02-21-07, 01:22 PM	Speaking of torture...stop on by the citadel of Melif the Lich-Lord. He's always ready for more...experiments...
Singer_of_the_Song 02-21-07, 01:23 PM	^^true, but I like mystic version better. Heck, now only if there was mythology to spice up New Jersey...I kid! I kid! ;) The Jersey Devil...stat that beast up! Quite joking.
PunkRockBard 02-21-07, 06:57 PM	Def. the Lich-Lord :). All in all....these interpretations of Gehenna are spot-on...and more descriptive than DND has really ever been with the plane, which just labels it "merciless" (aren't all the lower planes?) and makes it into a Yugoloth expansion.
The_Fan 02-21-07, 07:22 PM	Another good source was a mimir.net essay on the philosophies of all the planes, along with a rebuttal. From the section on Gehenna: "Hierarchies are only useful so you know where to aim next. Work your way into power, and guard your back. If you can achieve power, so can others. Give nothing away, for gifts only weaken your position. You have to fight for what you deserve, so make sure others have to do the same. Take what you can from other people. Weakening others can only strengthen yourself. Anything that will let you get ahead has got to be good. Earn people's trust, as this gives you power over them. Let nobody do the same to you. See the selfish motives behind everyone's actions, and be happy you are careful."
PunkRockBard 02-21-07, 10:03 PM	Great. This brings in another example....people who are ruthlessly ambitious...and will step on and turn their backs on anyone in their way. Thus the entire "climb the harsh volcano" metaphor of the plane.
ArcTan 02-21-07, 10:27 PM	Either hell was named after the refuse pit, or the refuse pit was named after the Jewish hell. Either way, Gehenna can mean both. The former. It's originally a place-name, just as the Greek Olympus is named after a real mountain. In the Tanakh it's never referred to as anything but a place -- the afterlife version of Gehenna is a metaphor that we start seeing in the Second Temple period. Jesus is just one of many Jewish preachers who uses Gehenna to mean the place of suffering the wicked went to after death, but his version is the one that's survived and become, in the New Testament and the church traditions it spawned, the Christian idea of Hell. Navar100 is describing the similar-but-different rabbinic traditions of Gehenna that developed in Judaism, which are similar but interpret Gehenna as temporary in a way that Jesus' teachings imply he didn't (which became the teachings of the "eternal lake of fire" in John's Revelation, etc.) -- more akin to the Catholic idea of Purgatory than Hell. I'm not sure that navar100's argument that no one can be kept in Gehenna for eternity goes unchallenged within Judaism, though -- I'm sure I've heard otherwise. Note that this concept of "Gehenna" doesn't directly translate into anything in particular in D&D and could apply to the Lower Planes in general -- anywhere where bad people go. The reason the D&D folks named the LE/E Outer Plane Gehenna was probably just that they were using as many random synonyms for "Hell" as they could, and they wanted a synonym for Hell that fit the theme of a fiery, burning, ever-changing landscape. (Gehenna was a place where garbage was burned in fires, and the first place fire is really seen as a central image for the afterlife of the wicked in Judeo-Christian tradition. Before then the Jewish afterlife wasn't described in any more detail than as being Sheol, "the grave", and a sort of dreary formless place akin to the Greek Hades -- and often written as "Hades" in Greek renderings of the Scriptures, including the New Testament.)
Melpomene 02-22-07, 05:01 PM	Great. This brings in another example....people who are ruthlessly ambitious...and will step on and turn their backs on anyone in their way. Thus the entire "climb the harsh volcano" metaphor of the plane. Don't (ever) confuse ambition with a desire for power. Gehennans don't actually want power. They like it. They don't 'want' it. As The_Fan said, power is nothing more than a great way to put a really big target on your head. The 'loths opperate through subterfuge and fear. To a 'loth, all that matters is is the subjugation of others. They want to make everyone else feel worse. By building a pyramid of suffering around themself, it seems like a ziggurat, but these are not the trappings of power that the devils enjoy. 'lolths, and the plane they live in, are wraught of torment. Inside them is a rolling flush of unquenchable hatred and voilence. They should not be called sadists, for sadists enjoy what they do. The 'loth does not. Their heart is full of ceaseless, unrelenting malace that no amount of release can suppress.
PunkRockBard 02-23-07, 11:20 PM	I'd agree about the 'loths. Their natures are hollow and hateful...a reflection of The Gray Waste of Hades. Nonetheless..i said -ruthless-ambition. Those who severely hurt others to gain power, then use that power to harm the weak...Gehenna might be the place for them.