I Just Gotta Ask...Demogorgon.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

I Just Gotta Ask...Demogorgon.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Infinitum
05-29-07, 10:04 PM I just gotta ask this....

Who would win, Demogorgon or a 140HD Hecatoncheires?

All opinions are appreciated. :)
ripvanwormer
05-29-07, 11:07 PM While the hecatoncheires were distracted, the titans would escape Tartarus.

Cronus FTW!
James Jacobs
05-30-07, 09:45 PM Demogorgon > 140HD Hecatoncheire

By the time the Hecatoncheire found enough dice to make his full attack, Demogorgon would have already advanced his HD up to 141.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20
05-30-07, 10:29 PM Though I think that Demogorgon is much cooler, I think that something with so much more HP would overwhelm the Demon Prince.
Kain Darkwind
05-31-07, 10:14 AM Demogorgon > 140HD Hecatoncheire

By the time the Hecatoncheire found enough dice to make his full attack, Demogorgon would have already advanced his HD up to 141.

:D That's great.

In seriousness, considering a 140HD hecatoncheire would probably be capable of killing most gods in my campaign, I'd say the heca wins. My Demogorgon is 70HD and he wouldn't be able to survive a full attack from this guy. On the other hand, greater teleport at will pretty much ensures he'll never have to suffer one, either.
Witch
05-31-07, 10:16 AM While I think a 140HD Hecatoncheires would win, I also think that such a Hecatoncheires doesn't exist.
Infinitum
05-31-07, 04:27 PM They do. It is the most powerful a Hecatoncheires can get. You just gotta know where to look :)

What's also cool is you can control it if you're a strong enough wizard if your DM doesn't use Deities and Demigods (which makes them rank 0 deities).
Naderion
05-31-07, 04:36 PM You don't get called Prince of Demons for nothing.

In a 1 on 1 fight, many of the arch-fiends may lose against other creatures, but as lords of their own layers, they don't need to fight alone against anyone. The power of arch-fiends reaches much further than the capabilities of their body and mind, they have virtually all inhabitants of their realm at their command.
Witch
05-31-07, 04:57 PM They do. It is the most powerful a Hecatoncheires can get. You just gotta know where to look :)
Theoretically, a wizard could become level 20,000. That doesn't mean he exists.
Infinitum
05-31-07, 06:58 PM From the Epic Level Handbook page 163, upper left-hand corner in the stats and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires

Hecatoncheires
Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 52d8+632 (1048 hp)
Initiative: +10 (+2 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative)
Speed: 100 ft.
Armor Class: 70 (-2 size, +30 natural, +20 insight, +12 armor [+5 half plate])
Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+80
Attack: Greatsword +73 melee (2d6+20/17-20); or boulder +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)
Full Attack: 100 greatswords +73 melee (2d6+20/17-20); or 100 boulders +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Superior multiweapon fighting, spell-like abilities, summon hecatoncheires
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, electricity immunity, regeneration 40, fast healing 50, SR 70, DR 20/good and epic and cold iron
Saves: Fort +39, Ref +30, Will +27
Abilities: Str 50, Dex 15, Con 32, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 24
Skills: Climb +75, Diplomacy +13, Hide -12, Intimidate +40, Jump +89, Knowledge (history) +33, Listen +104, Search +105, Sense Motive +49, Spot +104, Survival +54
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Critical (boulder), Improved Initiative, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Focus (boulder)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (×2), Epic Weapon Focus (greatsword), Epic Weapon Focus (boulder), Multiweapon Rend
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 57
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 53-58 HD (Huge); 59-70 HD (Gargantuan); 71-140 HD (Colossal)

A hecatoncheires’ natural weapons are treated as epic, evil, and chaotic-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

I'm not saying they are common, but it isn't even close to impossible to find one.
Kain Darkwind
05-31-07, 10:26 PM I'm not saying they are common, but it isn't even close to impossible to find one.

Witch is pointing out that he disagrees with putting such a massively powerful creature into his own cosmology.

Answer me this. Before Demogorgon can worry about 140HD hectos, how does he deal with all of the apparently mandatory 60HD balors in your world?

Possible advancement isn't the same as mandatory advancement. The tarrasque has an advancement of 49+HD. Does that mean with a 2 billion HD tarrasque it "isn't even close to impossible to find one"?
ArcTan
05-31-07, 10:50 PM Er, yes it is. It's at least "close to impossible". Max advanced creatures are generally supposed to be very rare or nonexistent. You know, like randomly stumbling upon a 20th-level PC.
Infinitum
06-02-07, 02:21 PM Compared to infinity, no, it isn't close to impossible because impossibility is absolute :) I'm also not stating that they are "mandatory", but I'm also saying they exist and in unknown numbers. Unless you searched the infinity of the multiverse (which is impossible), then you can never truly know what and how many of what lies there. Just because it may be rare in your realm doesn't mean it is impossible in mine.

Besides, who said this is some random encounter? Someone with the rights tools and the knowledge of how to use them can do many things....
ArcTan
06-02-07, 02:58 PM Compared to infinity, no, it isn't close to impossible because impossibility is absolute :) I'm also not stating that they are "mandatory", but I'm also saying they exist and in unknown numbers. Unless you searched the infinity of the multiverse (which is impossible), then you can never truly know what and how many of what lies there. Just because it may be rare in your realm doesn't mean it is impossible in mine.

Besides, who said this is some random encounter? Someone with the rights tools and the knowledge of how to use them can do many things....

*shrug*

You can make there be whatever there want, in your campaign.

However, I'd like to point out that just because something is infinite in size doesn't mean it has to have everything imaginable in it, as a philosophical matter. It's easy to imagine a universe infinite in size that contains *nothing at all*, for instance. Or to imagine, say, an infinite number of red books, which, even though it's infinite, has exactly zero blue books in it. Or exactly one blue book in it. (There's exactly one even prime number, 2, even though the number of prime numbers is infinite.)

Since I'm the DM and I exist *outside* my cosmology and nothing exists inside it unless I say so, it's easy for me to say "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 60 HD Balor". Just as WotC has, in its books, said "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 61 HD Balor", implying that "The planes may be infinite, but there's still only a few 60 HD Balor".
James Jacobs
06-02-07, 03:36 PM Just to make things a little bit more exciting... keep in mind that even the Advancement lines in monsters isn't the limit. You could have a 60 HD will-o'wisp or a 458 HD carrion crawler if you wanted one in your world, according to the rules for monster advancement from the Monster Manual.

The best way to judge power between monsters, in my opinion, is to compare their base stats. Which tells me that in a throw down fight the average Demogorgon would indeed get hosed by the average Hecatoncheires...

Provided the fight didn't happen in my campaign, of couse! ;)
Infinitum
06-02-07, 07:36 PM *shrug*

You can make there be whatever there want, in your campaign.

However, I'd like to point out that just because something is infinite in size doesn't mean it has to have everything imaginable in it, as a philosophical matter. It's easy to imagine a universe infinite in size that contains *nothing at all*, for instance. Or to imagine, say, an infinite number of red books, which, even though it's infinite, has exactly zero blue books in it. Or exactly one blue book in it. (There's exactly one even prime number, 2, even though the number of prime numbers is infinite.)

Since I'm the DM and I exist *outside* my cosmology and nothing exists inside it unless I say so, it's easy for me to say "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 60 HD Balor". Just as WotC has, in its books, said "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 61 HD Balor", implying that "The planes may be infinite, but there's still only a few 60 HD Balor".

Whatever you say mate :) I'm not gonna debate this with you over some forum. I have my thoughts, you have yours.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
06-10-07, 07:08 PM Answer me this. Before Demogorgon can worry about 140HD hectos, how does he deal with all of the apparently mandatory 60HD balors in your world?

Just because he's the Prince of Demons doesn't mean he doesn't need armrests.
Bob the Efreet
06-11-07, 02:09 AM Answer me this. Before Demogorgon can worry about 140HD hectos, how does he deal with all of the apparently mandatory 60HD balors in your world?

Sometimes Demogorgon gets a special kind of hunger that can only be sated in one way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Infinitum 05-29-07, 10:04 PM	I just gotta ask this.... Who would win, Demogorgon or a 140HD Hecatoncheires? All opinions are appreciated. :)
ripvanwormer 05-29-07, 11:07 PM	While the hecatoncheires were distracted, the titans would escape Tartarus. Cronus FTW!
James Jacobs 05-30-07, 09:45 PM	Demogorgon > 140HD Hecatoncheire By the time the Hecatoncheire found enough dice to make his full attack, Demogorgon would have already advanced his HD up to 141.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 05-30-07, 10:29 PM	Though I think that Demogorgon is much cooler, I think that something with so much more HP would overwhelm the Demon Prince.
Kain Darkwind 05-31-07, 10:14 AM	Demogorgon > 140HD Hecatoncheire By the time the Hecatoncheire found enough dice to make his full attack, Demogorgon would have already advanced his HD up to 141. :D That's great. In seriousness, considering a 140HD hecatoncheire would probably be capable of killing most gods in my campaign, I'd say the heca wins. My Demogorgon is 70HD and he wouldn't be able to survive a full attack from this guy. On the other hand, greater teleport at will pretty much ensures he'll never have to suffer one, either.
Witch 05-31-07, 10:16 AM	While I think a 140HD Hecatoncheires would win, I also think that such a Hecatoncheires doesn't exist.
Infinitum 05-31-07, 04:27 PM	They do. It is the most powerful a Hecatoncheires can get. You just gotta know where to look :) What's also cool is you can control it if you're a strong enough wizard if your DM doesn't use Deities and Demigods (which makes them rank 0 deities).
Naderion 05-31-07, 04:36 PM	You don't get called Prince of Demons for nothing. In a 1 on 1 fight, many of the arch-fiends may lose against other creatures, but as lords of their own layers, they don't need to fight alone against anyone. The power of arch-fiends reaches much further than the capabilities of their body and mind, they have virtually all inhabitants of their realm at their command.
Witch 05-31-07, 04:57 PM	They do. It is the most powerful a Hecatoncheires can get. You just gotta know where to look :) Theoretically, a wizard could become level 20,000. That doesn't mean he exists.
Infinitum 05-31-07, 06:58 PM	From the Epic Level Handbook page 163, upper left-hand corner in the stats and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires Hecatoncheires Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 52d8+632 (1048 hp) Initiative: +10 (+2 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative) Speed: 100 ft. Armor Class: 70 (-2 size, +30 natural, +20 insight, +12 armor [+5 half plate]) Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+80 Attack: Greatsword +73 melee (2d6+20/17-20); or boulder +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20) Full Attack: 100 greatswords +73 melee (2d6+20/17-20); or 100 boulders +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20) Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks: Superior multiweapon fighting, spell-like abilities, summon hecatoncheires Special Qualities: Abomination traits, electricity immunity, regeneration 40, fast healing 50, SR 70, DR 20/good and epic and cold iron Saves: Fort +39, Ref +30, Will +27 Abilities: Str 50, Dex 15, Con 32, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 24 Skills: Climb +75, Diplomacy +13, Hide -12, Intimidate +40, Jump +89, Knowledge (history) +33, Listen +104, Search +105, Sense Motive +49, Spot +104, Survival +54 Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Critical (boulder), Improved Initiative, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Focus (boulder) Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (×2), Epic Weapon Focus (greatsword), Epic Weapon Focus (boulder), Multiweapon Rend Environment: Any Organization: Solitary or pair Challenge Rating: 57 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Always chaotic evil Advancement: 53-58 HD (Huge); 59-70 HD (Gargantuan); 71-140 HD (Colossal) A hecatoncheires’ natural weapons are treated as epic, evil, and chaotic-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. I'm not saying they are common, but it isn't even close to impossible to find one.
Kain Darkwind 05-31-07, 10:26 PM	I'm not saying they are common, but it isn't even close to impossible to find one. Witch is pointing out that he disagrees with putting such a massively powerful creature into his own cosmology. Answer me this. Before Demogorgon can worry about 140HD hectos, how does he deal with all of the apparently mandatory 60HD balors in your world? Possible advancement isn't the same as mandatory advancement. The tarrasque has an advancement of 49+HD. Does that mean with a 2 billion HD tarrasque it "isn't even close to impossible to find one"?
ArcTan 05-31-07, 10:50 PM	Er, yes it is. It's at least "close to impossible". Max advanced creatures are generally supposed to be very rare or nonexistent. You know, like randomly stumbling upon a 20th-level PC.
Infinitum 06-02-07, 02:21 PM	Compared to infinity, no, it isn't close to impossible because impossibility is absolute :) I'm also not stating that they are "mandatory", but I'm also saying they exist and in unknown numbers. Unless you searched the infinity of the multiverse (which is impossible), then you can never truly know what and how many of what lies there. Just because it may be rare in your realm doesn't mean it is impossible in mine. Besides, who said this is some random encounter? Someone with the rights tools and the knowledge of how to use them can do many things....
ArcTan 06-02-07, 02:58 PM	Compared to infinity, no, it isn't close to impossible because impossibility is absolute :) I'm also not stating that they are "mandatory", but I'm also saying they exist and in unknown numbers. Unless you searched the infinity of the multiverse (which is impossible), then you can never truly know what and how many of what lies there. Just because it may be rare in your realm doesn't mean it is impossible in mine. Besides, who said this is some random encounter? Someone with the rights tools and the knowledge of how to use them can do many things.... shrug You can make there be whatever there want, in your campaign. However, I'd like to point out that just because something is infinite in size doesn't mean it has to have everything imaginable in it, as a philosophical matter. It's easy to imagine a universe infinite in size that contains nothing at all, for instance. Or to imagine, say, an infinite number of red books, which, even though it's infinite, has exactly zero blue books in it. Or exactly one blue book in it. (There's exactly one even prime number, 2, even though the number of prime numbers is infinite.) Since I'm the DM and I exist outside my cosmology and nothing exists inside it unless I say so, it's easy for me to say "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 60 HD Balor". Just as WotC has, in its books, said "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 61 HD Balor", implying that "The planes may be infinite, but there's still only a few 60 HD Balor".
James Jacobs 06-02-07, 03:36 PM	Just to make things a little bit more exciting... keep in mind that even the Advancement lines in monsters isn't the limit. You could have a 60 HD will-o'wisp or a 458 HD carrion crawler if you wanted one in your world, according to the rules for monster advancement from the Monster Manual. The best way to judge power between monsters, in my opinion, is to compare their base stats. Which tells me that in a throw down fight the average Demogorgon would indeed get hosed by the average Hecatoncheires... Provided the fight didn't happen in my campaign, of couse! ;)
Infinitum 06-02-07, 07:36 PM	shrug You can make there be whatever there want, in your campaign. However, I'd like to point out that just because something is infinite in size doesn't mean it has to have everything imaginable in it, as a philosophical matter. It's easy to imagine a universe infinite in size that contains nothing at all, for instance. Or to imagine, say, an infinite number of red books, which, even though it's infinite, has exactly zero blue books in it. Or exactly one blue book in it. (There's exactly one even prime number, 2, even though the number of prime numbers is infinite.) Since I'm the DM and I exist outside my cosmology and nothing exists inside it unless I say so, it's easy for me to say "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 60 HD Balor". Just as WotC has, in its books, said "The planes may be infinite, but there's no such thing as a 61 HD Balor", implying that "The planes may be infinite, but there's still only a few 60 HD Balor". Whatever you say mate :) I'm not gonna debate this with you over some forum. I have my thoughts, you have yours.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-10-07, 07:08 PM	Answer me this. Before Demogorgon can worry about 140HD hectos, how does he deal with all of the apparently mandatory 60HD balors in your world? Just because he's the Prince of Demons doesn't mean he doesn't need armrests.
Bob the Efreet 06-11-07, 02:09 AM	Answer me this. Before Demogorgon can worry about 140HD hectos, how does he deal with all of the apparently mandatory 60HD balors in your world? Sometimes Demogorgon gets a special kind of hunger that can only be sated in one way.