Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aushlo 07-08-07, 02:04 PM	First off, this thread probably straddles future releases and deities and the planes, I'm aware. But this is where you come for the OG planewalker's opinion. I was thinking about this based on the community wishlist thread above. It seems that a lot of people are interested in the planes, and the Planescpe setting. The success of backstory like the Demonomicon of Iggwilv and the prehistory presented in the Wind Dukes/Queen of Chaos story seem to get a lot of attention. My question for the planewalkers here is, if someone ever tackles the Planescape setting again, would you want to continue to let the official timeline unfold as-is, starting from just after the Faction War, and forget all the Factions in Sigil? Or would you prefer the ability to choose an era and get support for both? I'm looking in the direction of the Star Wars game, which can be set in either time period, and seems not to suffer from the foreknowledge of its fans of the events that'll transpire. Personally, I'd like the choice and to have both the dead factions and their current incarnations represented, and be able to jump into the role of a Namer with minor benefits without feeling it necessary shoot for a PrClass. I think the factions were wierd and awesome, and sadly a lot of people came late to the party and while intrigued at the old books and plot, won't get official support for the line's heyday. My game's set before the War, and my players love it, but then I don't mind converting everything I need to.
Calestin Kethal 07-08-07, 02:13 PM	If they were to do it, I think I'd like to start just after the events of the Faction War with the Lady of Pain having booted the factions from interfering in the lives of Sigilites. The remnants of the factions would still be around, and as I recall, a couple of the remnants merged. Heck, you could even have the formation of new factions. While the factions aren't in charge in Sigil anymore, if I recall, they can still go to and from without any problems. If they could get the original artist that did all the neat Planescape art to do the art for the new books, I'd love that too.
sciborg2 07-08-07, 03:10 PM	Personally I'd like to see Faction War never happening, but that's just me. Realistically, post Faction War is fine. Right now things are limbo as Wizards said articles on old settings in the new DI will depend on popularity with the community.
lint trap 07-08-07, 03:36 PM	Personally I'd like to see Faction War never happening, but that's just me. It's not just you. It seems like adventure writers were trying to destroy 2nd edition for the advent of d20. I think I even remember seeing a few adds to that effect; start out your 3.0 campaign with a clean slate. But when they destroyed the political and philosophical foundations of Sigil, they made a huge mistake. Someone should just toss the Lady of Pain a flux capacitor and get on back to the good old days.
hazhar 07-08-07, 03:41 PM	Why not just make it optional? Describe all the factions as existed pre-Faction War in the main text, then have a sidebar describing the events that may or may not have taken place during the Faction War.
Minmaximus 07-08-07, 03:58 PM	If they could get the original artist that did all the neat Planescape art to do the art for the new books, I'd love that too. That is not negotiable. If they ever plan on doing a re-release they need to pony up the money, and get that original artist. If they can't they would have to have blow away art to make up for it.
Bob the Efreet 07-08-07, 10:46 PM	It's not just you. It seems like adventure writers were trying to destroy 2nd edition for the advent of d20. I think I even remember seeing a few adds to that effect; start out your 3.0 campaign with a clean slate. But when they destroyed the political and philosophical foundations of Sigil, they made a huge mistake. Someone should just toss the Lady of Pain a flux capacitor and get on back to the good old days. That's not it at all. It was planned as the beginning of a three-part story arc, unfortunately Planescape was cancelled before we could see the rest unfold.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-09-07, 12:04 AM	Writing something pre-FW would be difficult, because 3e planar material has been set post-FW in its handling of the planes, the factions themselves, etc. That said, I've always run post-FW, but in no way does that remove the factions from the picture, it just changes the dynamic of how they interact and how they seek to achieve their goals. We had the Dusties and Doomies in FC:I, I worked the Ciphers into the Ecstasy article in Dragon, and they've shown up in various other 3.x sourcebooks and modules. The kriegstanz never ended, it just evolved, and I'm plenty cool with that.
sciborg2 07-09-07, 12:14 AM	I can't see it being too much of a problem in terms of the DI, there should (in theory) be enough room to accommodate both timelines. But really, it's unclear what support and just as important what promotion Wizards is going to give to old settings in the DI. Anything is better than nothing....glances over at Planar Handbook with its LN Lady of Pain...or not...
Deacon Liadon 07-09-07, 05:52 AM	Don't forget the Indeps in Complete Scoundrel. The onlyreason why I would ever read that book.
aushlo 07-09-07, 08:10 PM	Seems like a pretty evenly divided split so far. Interesting. To me, while I think the Faction War's outcome is an interesting mess to sort out, my favorite part of the games I run tends to be kicking around and illustrating the various Faction beliefs and variations within the factions. I love the look my players get when random NPC's drop nuggets of absurd philosophy and the PC's get to react to it. The structure of the city, with Sigil's law, economy and political systems revolving around big Faction personalities, makes for a varied palate with which to paint the planes-the broad brushstrokes being the Factol, official party line, function, and headquarters, the finer details being picked out through exploration. That said, the mysteries abound in the aftermath of the Faction War- from the disappearing Factols to the current plans of the big NPC's that were left behind. I mean, when the War happened, the writers really cleaned house on a lot of the big names, mazed and killed and whatnot. I think it would be fantastic to see the original crew's ideas, even sketched out roughly, as to where the story arc would have gone given time to do it. Who reemerges into Sigil? Who slinks off into the planes to lick their wounds or die? I think the time i going to come that WotC simply has to give Sigil its own book. I really hope they do it right and get the same people back, with some new fresh blood. It would be a real coup for a company that's put out a lot of newer books that are pretty consistently panned in this community. Listen to your readers, WotC! They know what they like. You just need to figure how to market and package it.
FWHGilby 07-10-07, 12:35 AM	couldn't the Lady of Pain stop this faction stuff? Is planetscape the only items that talk about post sigil?
Eco-Mono 07-10-07, 02:45 AM	Personally I'd like to see Faction War never happening, but that's just me. Realistically, post Faction War is fine. Right now things are limbo as Wizards said articles on old settings in the new DI will depend on popularity with the community.The factions were never intended to be barred forever, IIRC. What I'd like to see, then, is the story they were going to tell... a three-part awesomery with post-FW adventure and intrigue across the planes, eventually culminating in the return of the factions to Sigil (really the center of the campaign setting anyway), bringing things full-circle as it were. 3E is post-FW. But that doesn't mean it has to stay that way... and I'm trusting Jeremo, his fiat-defying antics, and his disturbing non-canon trenchcoated uncle to get us there. ;)
lint trap 07-10-07, 03:46 PM	Isn't it about time the Planewalker's Guild packed up their tent city on the Infinite Staircase and moved back to Sigil? The only reason they left was because of faction pressure, and while the Staircase is by no means a bad place to be, there's a big enough power vacuum to draw their attention.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-11-07, 02:59 PM	If more were done with the timeline, I wouldn't mind keeping up with this Post FW stuff. Until I read this thread I thought that the FW was just a group of writers being lazy "Dam, these factions are just too much of a mess to write about...how can we dump them?" So unless Wizards is willing to pony up a good continuance of the PFW timeline, I say go back to the good ol' faction days. PS I don't think it'll happen, but if Wizards got Toni DiTerlizzi back in the planescape illustration field, I'd buy the books for that reason alone.
Calmar 07-12-07, 12:08 PM	3E does not seem to be *fully* post Faction War to me. The Dungeon Master's Guide (p. 167) assumes the factions are still there, at least.
420 07-12-07, 01:17 PM	3E does not seem to be 'fully' post Faction War to me. The Dungeon Master's Guide (p. 167) assumes the factions are still there, at least. Many of the factions still do exist post Faction War, they just moved out of Sigil. In fact 3.5 Planar Handbook contains Prestige Classes based on the factions. -420
Deacon Liadon 07-12-07, 01:42 PM	3E does not seem to be 'fully' post Faction War to me. The Dungeon Master's Guide (p. 167) assumes the factions are still there, at least. The factions are all still there. Some of them may not claim to be factions, but they're still around.
Calmar 07-12-07, 03:44 PM	Sorry, I was not clear. The DMG still says they actually rule Sigil.
420 07-12-07, 04:52 PM	The DMG still says they actually rule Sigil. That's because clueless Primes wrote the core rule books. Heh, just kidding. If it's the 3.0 DMG then it was probably written before they decided how to treat Sigil in 3E Manual of the Planes, if it's in 3.5 then somebody wasn't doing their homework. -420
sciborg2 07-12-07, 06:19 PM	Or somebody just didn't like Faction War...maybe I wrote in my sleep telepathically? :eek: If so, I demand my cut Wizards!
Shemeska the Marauder 07-12-07, 09:54 PM	No, the 3.5 DMG text is a direct (and rather lazy) cut and paste from the 3e Manual of the Planes, and the MotP was written before they knew what the hell they were going to do with the fallout of FW in 3e. It goes into zero depth or discussion, and only mentions the factions in a single sentence. Later products that actually discuss Sigil in depth, make it explicitely clear that FW happened and we're now about 5 years after that point in-game. Planar Handbook was that way, along with FC:I, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, and the various Planescape articles in Dragon magazine.
aushlo 07-13-07, 08:20 PM	So does anyone have any idea what was intended after Faction War? Or just vague rumors/guesswork? Any believable sources of information?
ArcTan 07-14-07, 02:24 AM	That's because clueless Primes wrote the core rule books. Heh, just kidding. If it's the 3.0 DMG then it was probably written before they decided how to treat Sigil in 3E Manual of the Planes, if it's in 3.5 then somebody wasn't doing their homework. -420 Enh. Nothing pre-this-edition has to be canon in this edition. It's not a matter of doing homework, it's a matter of choosing to acknowledge things.
ripvanwormer 07-14-07, 11:11 AM	Everything pre-this-edition is generally assumed, by designers and fans, to be canon in this edition. There's nothing so cataclysmic about a rules change that it automatically justifies a fluff change. Yes, it's a matter of doing homework, and basic respect toward previous designers and fans. If changes are made, they should be done thoughtfully and with an eye toward retaining as much continuity as possible. And if you think you disagree with that, ArcTan, remember how you reacted when I suggested retconning Eberron into the Great Wheel. And I wasn't even talking about making that official; imagine if the 4th edition version of the Eberron setting just casually dumped the entire page or so of text that Eberron's 13-plane cosmology encompasses, replacing it with a note to "see the 4e Manual of the Planes" and maybe a few words about how Eberronites can reach the planes via Sigil, Yggdrasil, and portals constructed by Toril's Imaskari empire during the time they colonized Sarlona. Maybe I'd add some fluff about how the quori Dreaming Dark is really the god Incabulos known to the world of Oerth, who dwells in a realm called Charnelhouse in the Gray Waste. If I were the designer I wouldn't think it was a big deal, that it even improved the setting, and I'd probably giggle while I was doing it. But fans, and Keith Baker, might be disturbed by my nonchalance. The question is, what's more important? My ego and personal taste as a (hypothetical) game designer, or respect for the creation that others have built and the customers have been loyally following? I'm not saying things can never be changed - every setting has "bad" or "weak" canon that nobody would miss - but for the love of Gygax, do your homework so that you at least know what you've changed and what the repercussions are. If you're too lazy or short on time to do so, there are hundreds of people on message boards who are glad to answer any questions you might have.
ripvanwormer 07-14-07, 11:19 AM	So does anyone have any idea what was intended after Faction War? Or just vague rumors/guesswork? Any believable sources of information? People have asked Monte Cook this many times. He's always answered that there were no firm plans. They meant to bring the factions back to Sigil in some form, but they had no idea how. They hadn't gotten that far in their idea-building yet.
El Extraño 07-14-07, 11:39 AM	I think a new planescape setting will be a great idea but don’t believe it should focus in Sigil this time. I love Sigil is a great place but we have an all universe (o multiuniverse) that we are not using. The Outlands, in my understanding, it is as big as a planet and populated by radical different beings and societies, some of then have despises each other for countless millenniums, what are theirs political and economic structures and relationship? Give us more information about other outer plane aside from the Abyss and Baator (love fiendish codex I & II more please) what about Hades and the Yugoloth? What about the upper planes? And for god sake do something, anything, with Mechanus and Limbo, give us more Inevitables, more lawful outsiders, and what happen with the ant infestation?, what happen with the Slaad Lords? Why not create a conflict/war between the Slaad and the Death Slaad because of the corruption of pure chaos that the Death Slaad represents?, but the conflict is so chaotic that no one knows who is winning or losing. And what about the inner planes?, what happen with the lawful-elemental beings who fight against the Obyriths?, death, alive, transcend into the great beyond or what?, and more important they left some ruin that we can loot?
Bob the Efreet 07-14-07, 12:25 PM	The Outlands, in my understanding, it is as big as a planet Bigger.
aushlo 07-14-07, 01:04 PM	People have asked Monte Cook this many times. He's always answered that there were no firm plans. They meant to bring the factions back to Sigil in some form, but they had no idea how. They hadn't gotten that far in their idea-building yet. That's a little sad. From what little I've read and heard about the design process and the brainstorming sessions, it sounds a heck of a lot like the way my friends and I come up with off-the-wall ideas, feeding basically off each other's insanity and making mad ideas dovetail into a previous concept. I'd really love to see what they would come up with after some time away. Maybe I'll go get 'Beyond Countless Doorways' and see what it has to offer, that was a reunion of sorts but not a Planescape one per se. The general opinion seems to be, bring back Monte Cook and Tony DiTerlizzi. I'd love to see T.D. tackle the setting again, he's matured immensely as an artist and just gets better and better. Still whimsical certainly, but with a much stronger sense of style and design. I'd like to pick up some of Monte Cook's recent stuff and see what he's been up to beyond the WotC books. Who else of the previous team would we like to see? I also liked the artist who worked on Dead Gods, though I don't remember the name offhand. On the other hand, there were some really dumb books in the Planescape line too (I finally just read Harbinger House. Decent idea, terrible book).
ripvanwormer 07-14-07, 02:14 PM	Who else of the previous team would we like to see? Michele Carter, Colin McComb, Wolfgang Baur, Ray Vallese, David "Zeb" Cook. Or, alternatively, a fan dream-team: Jon Winter, Brannon Hollingsworth, Ken Marable, Todd Stewart, sciborg2, the Orroloth, Igor Calija, Ivan Chia, Dave King, Zach Shuford, Julian Kuleck. There are some current designers, like Erik Mona, James Jacobs, Gwen Kestral, Ed Bonny, and Eric L. Boyd, who I wouldn't mind seeing on such a project, but there are others, like Ari Marmell, who I'd want to stay as far away as possible. After Fiendish Codex II, I'd prefer if Robert J. Schwalb and Robin D. Laws avoid it for the most part as well, and let's see if we can exclude James Wyatt and Chris Perkins, shall we? I'm iffy about Bruce Cordell, who has a very different sensibility. I also liked the artist who worked on Dead Gods, though I don't remember the name offhand. r.k. post. He did the cover of Beyond Countless Doorways, too. On the other hand, there were some really dumb books in the Planescape line too (I finally just read Harbinger House. Decent idea, terrible book). That was Bill Slaviscek. He had some interesting ideas, and I wouldn't mind him contributing either.
Bob the Efreet 07-16-07, 04:08 PM	I'm iffy about Bruce Cordell, who has a very different sensibility. Cordell has written some good things, but I agree his compatibilities with a Planescape design are a bit hit-and-miss.
DrStalker 07-16-07, 07:03 PM	Whatever happens I'd like to see core philosophical beliefs expressed through role-playing and possibly very minor games-rule benefits. Turning factions into prestige classes like the Planar Handbook did is just wrong, in my opinion. A feat or two available to members of a given faction? Sure, that's fine. Sensates being a 10-level PrC for arcane casters? Bad. I like pre-faction war Sigil more than post, but I'd be happy for pretty much anything done in the style of the original Planescape. The writing style in those books had a flavor unsurpassed by anything else I have ever come across in D&D; it managed to create an amazing setting without letting the game rules get in the way.
ripvanwormer 07-16-07, 07:13 PM	Turning factions into prestige classes like the Planar Handbook did is just wrong, in my opinion. That's not what the Planar Handbook did. The prestige classes are only for elite members who wish to exemplify the faction's ideals in a specific way. Most members of the faction won't belong to the prestige class. Each faction doubtless has multiple prestige classes, and faction feats, and benefits along the lines of affiliations as well.
aushlo 07-16-07, 08:55 PM	That's not what the Planar Handbook did. The prestige classes are only for elite members who wish to exemplify the faction's ideals in a specific way. Most members of the faction won't belong to the prestige class. Each faction doubtless has multiple prestige classes, and faction feats, and benefits along the lines of affiliations as well. True. But I think the intent of the post sums up my feelings too-feats or something like to represent Faction membership would have been much better. For example, a 'Namer' feat giving basic benefits, with each faction giving a slightly different effect, maybe a minor spell-like ability, would be right on. For that matter, organizations with affiliation scoring and the ability to get those odd faction abilities would be fine, too. My concern with the current representation is that there's little except the Prestige Classes, rules-chunky wise, to represent the Factions. Granted, they were neither balanced nor particularly well thought-out initially either, but I never felt it mattered much. That said, I never feel the need for rules myself, but I know a lot of people want something concrete defining, mechanically, faction membership. I don't, but I'm not most people. On a not really at all related note, the thing that I think really got me excited about the setting in the first place was probably having been a player for years upon years before seeing the setting, and being a little bored with the staid old D&D ideas. Here was a setting for the roleplayer who'd read and played most everything else to stretch the imagination into the dark, undefined, cerebral, and often absurd opportunities the Planes had to offer. Belief as a core theme. Dark, but truly irreverent and witty humor. The Planescape world was the perfect spark a lot of people needed to realize that the most fun they would ever have was going to be turning the D&D they knew back to front right on its head. Hmm. Maybe not as unrelated as I thought. The reason Planescape caught me was because it was, without needing much in the way of mechanics, inspiring, evocative, and brimming with potential. Give me a book full of ideas, characters and places. Give me enough to make me interested, but to hell with the stats and numbers. I'd take a single well-written Planescape fluff book over a dozen Forgotten Realms books. Is the average DM or player ever going to need Elminster or Fzoul Chembryl's stats? Hardly. But how many overpowered and ultimately useless NPC's have paper been wasted on?
DrStalker 07-17-07, 12:00 AM	I'm with Aushlo on this. Planescape for me is the only time published D&D has ever felt like a world full of individuals, rather than a world full of interchangable Class X Race Y clones. There are plenty of other RPGs I like that also do this in different settings, and it's quite achievable to get that feeling when you run a game but "regular" D&D just fails it for me. Planescape is full of ideas, a rich tapestry where the players can go anywhere and the GM can think of intersting things happening at that place. Plot ideas practially leap off the pages at the reader. It lets you bring almost anything together to create a story without needing an elaborate and contrived backstory, and that's invaluable. Of course, this has the nice advantage of the old Planescape stuff being just as useful now as it was then. Who cares what stats Erin Darkflame Montgomery has? What's important is her personality and her position, not how many 9th level spells she can throw in a round or how many attacks of opportunity she gets? Things can be converted on as-needed basis. But I still want new planescape stuff. And if the art is in the same style as the original stuff, so much the better!
Andyr 07-17-07, 05:13 PM	Or, alternatively, a fan dream-team: Jon Winter, Brannon Hollingsworth, Ken Marable, Todd Stewart, sciborg2, the Orroloth, Igor Calija, Ivan Chia, Dave King, Zach Shuford, Julian Kuleck. I don't know Shemmy's real name, but if it's not there it should be! Along with you, Rip.
Bob the Efreet 07-17-07, 05:34 PM	I don't know Shemmy's real name, but if it's not there it should be! Along with you, Rip. Unless Rip is Dave King, I don't think he's on the list. I recognise most of the other names.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-17-07, 05:56 PM	Unless Rip is Dave King, I don't think he's on the list. I recognise most of the other names. Although he should be on there on that list, he's not. Rip goes by his real name. I didn't believe him till I saw his drivers license last year. :)
420 07-17-07, 08:45 PM	Rip goes by his real name. I didn't believe him till I saw his drivers license last year. That's pretty amazing. My real name is so lame I don't even use it in real life! -420
Andyr 07-17-07, 09:11 PM	Although he should be on there on that list, he's not. Rip goes by his real name. I didn't believe him till I saw his drivers license last year. :) Heh, that's a pretty cool name. So, Shemmy, which one are you? Assuming you don't mind it being known.