Infernal Advancement Path, Imp Beats Barbarzu? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Infernal Advancement Path, Imp Beats Barbarzu? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Allanius
11-12-07, 11:31 AM According to the Infernal Advancement Path, pg 10 of the Fiendish Codex II, a barbazu (bearded devil, CR 5) can be promoted to an imp (CR 2).

1) Why would a CR 5 Barbazu let a CR 2 Imp rule and torture it?

2) Imps aren't listed as Baatezu. So a Baatezu can be promoted to and non Baatezu and then again into another Baatezu form? There is no errata for FCII.

Also, is there a complete listing of devil ranks?
Space_Dragon
11-12-07, 12:01 PM Imps might have a lower CR than barbazu, but they have much higher mental scores (barbazu are practically retarded), are capable of more complex tasks, and are generally superior to a barbazu at everything besides melee combat. The Nine Hells are not like the Abyss, where the strong rule the weak by virtue of their own physical might. I could definetely see an imp commanding a squad of barbazu in battle, using its intelligence to improve their tactical ability and its spell like abilities to support them from behind the lines.

As for imps not being baatezu, this sounds like a retcon. And not neccessarily a bad one.
Kain_Darkwind
11-12-07, 01:21 PM As for imps not being baatezu, this sounds like a retcon. And not neccessarily a bad one.

They've never been baatezu as long as i can remember. They are listed as separate from devils in the Advanced D&D Monster Manual (1e). They lacked the baatezu subtype in both 3.0 and 3.5. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest they probably weren't baatezu in 2e either.
Igfig
11-12-07, 02:19 PM Note that kytons are on the advancement list too, and they aren't barbazu either. This might be a retcon, but I'm going to guess that it's closer to simple oversight. In the 2.0 hierarchy (as found in Faces of Evil: The Fiends), there are no imps or kytons.
The Serge7
11-12-07, 07:41 PM Imps were not considered "devils" until 3ed; neither were kytons. Despite both living in Hell (much like hell hounds aren't devils). While I always agreed with saying that certain LE creatures are devils, I've never agreed with the notion espoused by FCII that all must be part of the hierarchy. Thus, I ignore the notion that either imps or kytons fall within the promotion structure of Hell (however, I do believe that a particularly ticked off diabolical noble would demote a lesser devil to imp status).

As an aside, I pretty much use the promotion list (with slight modifications) from Planescape's Planes of Law: IIRC (I can't find my copy right now) it includes neither the imp nor the kyton as part of the promotion structure. I also ignore the apparently senseless change 3.5 made by placing the cornugon (horned devil) at a higher rank than the gelugon (ice devil). But then again, I also place the amnizu (gate devil or, at Dicefreaks, barregon which is a CR 14 or so) at a higher rank than the cornugon despite being weaker (cornugon, barregon, gelugon, and pit fiend).
Allanius
11-12-07, 07:50 PM As for imps not being baatezu, this sounds like a retcon. And not neccessarily a bad one.

Retcon? Never heard of that.

If Imps aren't Baatezu why are they in command of Baatezu?
Shemeska the Marauder
11-12-07, 09:48 PM Here's the advancement hierarchy from 2e's Faces of Evil:

http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Baatezu%20Promotion.JPG
Shemeska the Marauder
11-12-07, 10:05 PM A few things:

1) Imps have never been baatezu, though they served within the baatezu ranks in the hopes of being transformed into one as a reward for their service.

2) The advancement chart in FC:II includes non-baatezu, yet also leaves out certain baatezu with no explanation. I suspect it was either added during development by someone unfamiliar with the material, or it was a mistake by the authors. Either way it's messed up.

If Imps aren't Baatezu why are they in command of Baatezu?

For the same reason that US soldiers may serve under the command of a foreign officer during NATO operations. You don't need to be baatezu to serve in some capacity within their hierarchy, and just as a foreign soldier or officer serving alongside or in command of American troops, you wouldn't be officially part of their ranks or elegible for their specific chain of promotions and awards.

I could see an imp being empowered by a high ranking baatezu to command troops under his control because of the benefits of having someone outside of their hierarchy in command (being a fall guy, giving plausible deniability for failure, using the implied rejection of having to serve under a non-baatezu to motivate troops, or simply using the abilities of a non-baatezu for some situation specific advantage).
Kain_Darkwind
11-12-07, 10:13 PM 3.5 has about twice that number of baatezu who aren't on the list. :D

Tough fitting them all in.
Thanael
11-14-07, 07:33 AM Didn't someone here on the boards make a gorgeous chart for this some time ago?

Edit: Found the thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=789247

...and a bit of a bump for the update.

http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinalThmb.png (http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinal.png)

BAM!
Snow Princess
11-14-07, 10:44 AM Are imps found out of Hell? Seems at this point one might make them into devils and quasits into demons as I can't see what harm it does.
MagusBlack
11-19-07, 01:47 AM ...Maybe because the imp is a level 20 fighter and can kick their sorry rear-ends should they not respect his authority:devil:.

If they live through enough battles in the Blood War then any devil can command respect and gain position without changing form...and beware the kytons with silver locks:shifty:.
Thegans
11-20-07, 12:09 AM ...Maybe because the imp is a level 20 fighter and can kick their sorry rear-ends should they not respect his authority:devil:.

If they live through enough battles in the Blood War then any devil can command respect and gain position without changing form...and beware the kytons with silver locks:shifty:.

I think the imp could do better as a rogue because of its size. It just needs to make sure it has its back stab permits.
MagusBlack
11-20-07, 01:58 PM I think the imp could do better as a rogue because of its size. It just needs to make sure it has its back stab permits.

True but sneaking around isn’t something you try to do in the Blood War…and Stabbing Permits can cost an arm and a leg.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Allanius 11-12-07, 11:31 AM	According to the Infernal Advancement Path, pg 10 of the Fiendish Codex II, a barbazu (bearded devil, CR 5) can be promoted to an imp (CR 2). 1) Why would a CR 5 Barbazu let a CR 2 Imp rule and torture it? 2) Imps aren't listed as Baatezu. So a Baatezu can be promoted to and non Baatezu and then again into another Baatezu form? There is no errata for FCII. Also, is there a complete listing of devil ranks?
Space_Dragon 11-12-07, 12:01 PM	Imps might have a lower CR than barbazu, but they have much higher mental scores (barbazu are practically retarded), are capable of more complex tasks, and are generally superior to a barbazu at everything besides melee combat. The Nine Hells are not like the Abyss, where the strong rule the weak by virtue of their own physical might. I could definetely see an imp commanding a squad of barbazu in battle, using its intelligence to improve their tactical ability and its spell like abilities to support them from behind the lines. As for imps not being baatezu, this sounds like a retcon. And not neccessarily a bad one.
Kain_Darkwind 11-12-07, 01:21 PM	As for imps not being baatezu, this sounds like a retcon. And not neccessarily a bad one. They've never been baatezu as long as i can remember. They are listed as separate from devils in the Advanced D&D Monster Manual (1e). They lacked the baatezu subtype in both 3.0 and 3.5. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest they probably weren't baatezu in 2e either.
Igfig 11-12-07, 02:19 PM	Note that kytons are on the advancement list too, and they aren't barbazu either. This might be a retcon, but I'm going to guess that it's closer to simple oversight. In the 2.0 hierarchy (as found in Faces of Evil: The Fiends), there are no imps or kytons.
The Serge7 11-12-07, 07:41 PM	Imps were not considered "devils" until 3ed; neither were kytons. Despite both living in Hell (much like hell hounds aren't devils). While I always agreed with saying that certain LE creatures are devils, I've never agreed with the notion espoused by FCII that all must be part of the hierarchy. Thus, I ignore the notion that either imps or kytons fall within the promotion structure of Hell (however, I do believe that a particularly ticked off diabolical noble would demote a lesser devil to imp status). As an aside, I pretty much use the promotion list (with slight modifications) from Planescape's Planes of Law: IIRC (I can't find my copy right now) it includes neither the imp nor the kyton as part of the promotion structure. I also ignore the apparently senseless change 3.5 made by placing the cornugon (horned devil) at a higher rank than the gelugon (ice devil). But then again, I also place the amnizu (gate devil or, at Dicefreaks, barregon which is a CR 14 or so) at a higher rank than the cornugon despite being weaker (cornugon, barregon, gelugon, and pit fiend).
Allanius 11-12-07, 07:50 PM	As for imps not being baatezu, this sounds like a retcon. And not neccessarily a bad one. Retcon? Never heard of that. If Imps aren't Baatezu why are they in command of Baatezu?
Shemeska the Marauder 11-12-07, 09:48 PM	Here's the advancement hierarchy from 2e's Faces of Evil: http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Baatezu%20Promotion.JPG
Shemeska the Marauder 11-12-07, 10:05 PM	A few things: 1) Imps have never been baatezu, though they served within the baatezu ranks in the hopes of being transformed into one as a reward for their service. 2) The advancement chart in FC:II includes non-baatezu, yet also leaves out certain baatezu with no explanation. I suspect it was either added during development by someone unfamiliar with the material, or it was a mistake by the authors. Either way it's messed up. If Imps aren't Baatezu why are they in command of Baatezu? For the same reason that US soldiers may serve under the command of a foreign officer during NATO operations. You don't need to be baatezu to serve in some capacity within their hierarchy, and just as a foreign soldier or officer serving alongside or in command of American troops, you wouldn't be officially part of their ranks or elegible for their specific chain of promotions and awards. I could see an imp being empowered by a high ranking baatezu to command troops under his control because of the benefits of having someone outside of their hierarchy in command (being a fall guy, giving plausible deniability for failure, using the implied rejection of having to serve under a non-baatezu to motivate troops, or simply using the abilities of a non-baatezu for some situation specific advantage).
Kain_Darkwind 11-12-07, 10:13 PM	3.5 has about twice that number of baatezu who aren't on the list. :D Tough fitting them all in.
Thanael 11-14-07, 07:33 AM	Didn't someone here on the boards make a gorgeous chart for this some time ago? Edit: Found the thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=789247 ...and a bit of a bump for the update. http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinalThmb.png (http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/BaatezuGridFinal.png) BAM!
Snow Princess 11-14-07, 10:44 AM	Are imps found out of Hell? Seems at this point one might make them into devils and quasits into demons as I can't see what harm it does.
MagusBlack 11-19-07, 01:47 AM	...Maybe because the imp is a level 20 fighter and can kick their sorry rear-ends should they not respect his authority:devil:. If they live through enough battles in the Blood War then any devil can command respect and gain position without changing form...and beware the kytons with silver locks:shifty:.
Thegans 11-20-07, 12:09 AM	...Maybe because the imp is a level 20 fighter and can kick their sorry rear-ends should they not respect his authority:devil:. If they live through enough battles in the Blood War then any devil can command respect and gain position without changing form...and beware the kytons with silver locks:shifty:. I think the imp could do better as a rogue because of its size. It just needs to make sure it has its back stab permits.
MagusBlack 11-20-07, 01:58 PM	I think the imp could do better as a rogue because of its size. It just needs to make sure it has its back stab permits. True but sneaking around isn’t something you try to do in the Blood War…and Stabbing Permits can cost an arm and a leg.