Infernal Aristocracy continued… [Archive] - Wizards Community

Infernal Aristocracy continued… [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RavinRay
12-13-07, 07:32 AM and while the multiverse trembles at the next cataclysmic re-arrangement of the planes (dubbed in one Material Plane world as "4E"), the scribe Robert J. Schwalb braved the unspeakable terrors of Baator and assiduously gleaned ancient tomes to unearth new information on several dukes of Hell. A month ago (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071017) Moloch, Titivilus, Bael, Balan, and Bathym were profiled. This month (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071212&authentic=true), it's the turn of Agares from Stygia, Tartach the chamberlain of Glasya, Lilith the the second consort to Baalzebul, Hutijin a renowned commander of Mephistopheles' armies, and Asmodeus' own right-hand man the chancellor Adramalech.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007
12-13-07, 04:01 PM Aren't they gonna boost the Lords of the Nine stats since these creatures are just as strong?
illathid
12-13-07, 06:57 PM Aren't they gonna boost the Lords of the Nine stats since these creatures are just as strong?

The article actually addresses this.

What the Hell?

After flipping through the pages of this article, you're probably noticing the dukes described here are as powerful or more powerful than the archdevils presented in the Fiendish Codex II. This is intentional. The archdukes in the Fiendish Codex II are aspects, manifestations having but a fragment of the archdevil's power. The dukes described here are the real deal. They lack the ability to create aspects and thus when encountered, they are nearly always in their true form.
The Serge7
12-13-07, 08:06 PM Why is Hutijin dumber than a pit fiend? In fact, why are most of them dumber than pit fiends? Why are their sla suites also lackluster compared to a pit fiend...?
Space_Dragon
12-14-07, 02:50 AM Why is Hutijin dumber than a pit fiend? In fact, why are most of them dumber than pit fiends? Why are their sla suites also lackluster compared to a pit fiend...?

That's just what they want you to think...
goldomark
12-14-07, 06:39 AM I have question. Why does Lilith only give her cultists access to clerical spells up to level 5? Why not higher? Is this new to 3.5?

It reminds me of 2e and the limited access to spells certain gods or beings gave (archomentals and demigods for example).

I understand the fluff behind that decision, but it goes against the rules and spirit of 3.5. Unless there is a precedant.
Mojo_Rat
12-14-07, 11:40 AM Its probably because she does not fully support her own worshipers.
Kain_Darkwind
12-14-07, 01:58 PM Hutijin is also weaker than a pit fiend, despite being larger.

He has 34 Str. A Large pit fiend has 37 Str. A Huge pit fiend would have 45 Str. In fact, the weakest possible Huge pit fiend (having rolled a 3 for Str) would have a 37 Str. Hutijin must have some degenerative bone disease that saps his strength. That must be why his natural attacks are weaker than a Large sized pit fiend's as well.
Space_Dragon
12-14-07, 02:31 PM Or maybe balors and pit fiends both have stupidly high ability scores, much higher than they need, and could stand to be brought down just a bit.

That would be really nice.
The Serge7
12-14-07, 03:21 PM Or maybe balors and pit fiends both have stupidly high ability scores, much higher than they need, and could stand to be brought down just a bit.

That would be really nice.
It would be nice if there was a retcon for the 3.5 balor and pit fiend that would in turn make Hutijin look right... But there isn't, making your statement moot in this particular situation.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007
12-14-07, 03:33 PM Are updating this stuff reguraly on the site since Paizo stopped publishing the Dragon Magazines, or are they just taking stuff from the last Dragon issue and posting them?
goldomark
12-14-07, 04:56 PM Its probably because she does not fully support her own worshipers.

Yes that makes perfect sense fluffwise, but its not in concordance with the spirit of 3.5e (maybe this was presented also in FCII, I don't have it).

Limiting the access to spell of a character is not in the spirit of 3.5e, its more 2e, so this limite as me confused.
Climhazzard
12-14-07, 05:40 PM Why did they up the stats/power of the Core demons and devils (pit fiends and balors, I am looking at you) during the transition to 3.5, when the stats of the archfiends went down?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think normal balors and pit fiends were considered 20th level challenges in previous editions. So why make them CR 20, yet make a CR 19 Jubilex and a HD 36 Hutijin (twice the HD of a pit fiend) that has worst stats?

Arguments I've heard include the fact that 3.5 Core fiends and even monsters in the ELH have such high mental stats is to provide high DCs for their attacks. Why not give them a racial bonus?

Some people argue that low CR archfiends and fiendish aspects are to provide a finishing boss at the end of a campaign. We have CR 20 fiends, CR 23 solars, and CR 26 red great wyrms; why not use them as final bosses than the neutered unique fiends they have given us?
Zicka
12-14-07, 08:16 PM Can I get a Lilith description and a reference please?
RavinRay
12-15-07, 12:12 AM You mean the RW mythology-based Lilith? I've known before that she's Adam's first (demonic) wife according to various Jewish sources, and they spawned evil offspring. The inspiration apparently goes to Mesopotamian folklore as Lilith's Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith) states.
Zicka
12-15-07, 01:51 PM thanks
Space_Dragon
12-15-07, 05:11 PM It would be nice if there was a retcon for the 3.5 balor and pit fiend that would in turn make Hutijin look right... But there isn't, making your statement moot in this particular situation.

I know. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile or offensive (I wasn't trying to be). What I meant is that instead of jacking up the ability scores of the archdukes, they should tone down the balors and pit fiends. Hopefully, fourth edition will be going this route.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RavinRay 12-13-07, 07:32 AM	and while the multiverse trembles at the next cataclysmic re-arrangement of the planes (dubbed in one Material Plane world as "4E"), the scribe Robert J. Schwalb braved the unspeakable terrors of Baator and assiduously gleaned ancient tomes to unearth new information on several dukes of Hell. A month ago (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071017) Moloch, Titivilus, Bael, Balan, and Bathym were profiled. This month (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071212&authentic=true), it's the turn of Agares from Stygia, Tartach the chamberlain of Glasya, Lilith the the second consort to Baalzebul, Hutijin a renowned commander of Mephistopheles' armies, and Asmodeus' own right-hand man the chancellor Adramalech.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 12-13-07, 04:01 PM	Aren't they gonna boost the Lords of the Nine stats since these creatures are just as strong?
illathid 12-13-07, 06:57 PM	Aren't they gonna boost the Lords of the Nine stats since these creatures are just as strong? The article actually addresses this. What the Hell? After flipping through the pages of this article, you're probably noticing the dukes described here are as powerful or more powerful than the archdevils presented in the Fiendish Codex II. This is intentional. The archdukes in the Fiendish Codex II are aspects, manifestations having but a fragment of the archdevil's power. The dukes described here are the real deal. They lack the ability to create aspects and thus when encountered, they are nearly always in their true form.
The Serge7 12-13-07, 08:06 PM	Why is Hutijin dumber than a pit fiend? In fact, why are most of them dumber than pit fiends? Why are their sla suites also lackluster compared to a pit fiend...?
Space_Dragon 12-14-07, 02:50 AM	Why is Hutijin dumber than a pit fiend? In fact, why are most of them dumber than pit fiends? Why are their sla suites also lackluster compared to a pit fiend...? That's just what they want you to think...
goldomark 12-14-07, 06:39 AM	I have question. Why does Lilith only give her cultists access to clerical spells up to level 5? Why not higher? Is this new to 3.5? It reminds me of 2e and the limited access to spells certain gods or beings gave (archomentals and demigods for example). I understand the fluff behind that decision, but it goes against the rules and spirit of 3.5. Unless there is a precedant.
Mojo_Rat 12-14-07, 11:40 AM	Its probably because she does not fully support her own worshipers.
Kain_Darkwind 12-14-07, 01:58 PM	Hutijin is also weaker than a pit fiend, despite being larger. He has 34 Str. A Large pit fiend has 37 Str. A Huge pit fiend would have 45 Str. In fact, the weakest possible Huge pit fiend (having rolled a 3 for Str) would have a 37 Str. Hutijin must have some degenerative bone disease that saps his strength. That must be why his natural attacks are weaker than a Large sized pit fiend's as well.
Space_Dragon 12-14-07, 02:31 PM	Or maybe balors and pit fiends both have stupidly high ability scores, much higher than they need, and could stand to be brought down just a bit. That would be really nice.
The Serge7 12-14-07, 03:21 PM	Or maybe balors and pit fiends both have stupidly high ability scores, much higher than they need, and could stand to be brought down just a bit. That would be really nice. It would be nice if there was a retcon for the 3.5 balor and pit fiend that would in turn make Hutijin look right... But there isn't, making your statement moot in this particular situation.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 12-14-07, 03:33 PM	Are updating this stuff reguraly on the site since Paizo stopped publishing the Dragon Magazines, or are they just taking stuff from the last Dragon issue and posting them?
goldomark 12-14-07, 04:56 PM	Its probably because she does not fully support her own worshipers. Yes that makes perfect sense fluffwise, but its not in concordance with the spirit of 3.5e (maybe this was presented also in FCII, I don't have it). Limiting the access to spell of a character is not in the spirit of 3.5e, its more 2e, so this limite as me confused.
Climhazzard 12-14-07, 05:40 PM	Why did they up the stats/power of the Core demons and devils (pit fiends and balors, I am looking at you) during the transition to 3.5, when the stats of the archfiends went down? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think normal balors and pit fiends were considered 20th level challenges in previous editions. So why make them CR 20, yet make a CR 19 Jubilex and a HD 36 Hutijin (twice the HD of a pit fiend) that has worst stats? Arguments I've heard include the fact that 3.5 Core fiends and even monsters in the ELH have such high mental stats is to provide high DCs for their attacks. Why not give them a racial bonus? Some people argue that low CR archfiends and fiendish aspects are to provide a finishing boss at the end of a campaign. We have CR 20 fiends, CR 23 solars, and CR 26 red great wyrms; why not use them as final bosses than the neutered unique fiends they have given us?
Zicka 12-14-07, 08:16 PM	Can I get a Lilith description and a reference please?
RavinRay 12-15-07, 12:12 AM	You mean the RW mythology-based Lilith? I've known before that she's Adam's first (demonic) wife according to various Jewish sources, and they spawned evil offspring. The inspiration apparently goes to Mesopotamian folklore as Lilith's Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith) states.
Zicka 12-15-07, 01:51 PM	thanks
Space_Dragon 12-15-07, 05:11 PM	It would be nice if there was a retcon for the 3.5 balor and pit fiend that would in turn make Hutijin look right... But there isn't, making your statement moot in this particular situation. I know. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile or offensive (I wasn't trying to be). What I meant is that instead of jacking up the ability scores of the archdukes, they should tone down the balors and pit fiends. Hopefully, fourth edition will be going this route.