Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Runepriest 04-28-07, 10:55 PM	I would like to know information on how MotP and Deities and Demigods handled the whole Norse cosmology thing. Thanks in advance.
Zousha_Omenohu 04-28-07, 11:20 PM	What kind of information exactly are you looking for?
Runepriest 04-28-07, 11:31 PM	Planes and gods. What level (Demi, lesser, intermediate, Greater, Over) or DV the gods are. I know the history.
Zousha_Omenohu 04-28-07, 11:58 PM	:teach: This could be the beginning of a long record... The planes that are used in the Asgardian Cosmology (the Norse gods have no place in the Great Wheel), include Midgard (the equivalent of the Material Plane), Asgard and Niflheim (which are considered outer planes). Bifrost acts as the only way in or out of Asgard. Likewise, the Plane of Shadow is the only way to reach Niflheim. The Astral and Ethereal Planes do not access either Asgard or Niflheim, but both can connect you to the Plane of Shadow. The greater deities (and their alignments) are as follows: Odin (NG) Frey (NG) Frigga (N) Loki (CE) Thor (CG) The intermediate deities are: Aegir (NE) Balder (NG) Forseti (N) Freya (NG) Heimdall (LG) Hel (NE) Njord (NG) Surtur (LE) Thrym (CE) Tyr (LN) The lesser deities are: Sif (CG) Skadi (N) Uller (CN) The demigods are: Hermod (CN) Odur (CG) If you desire more information, I'd strongly suggest you read Deities and Demigods yourself. It contains much more information than I would ever be able to state here. Manual of the Planes has no information on this matter.
Runepriest 04-29-07, 09:08 AM	Thanks, I know the history and such, but never knew how to put it into game terms. I wonder where Jotunheim and Muspellheim are though?
Zousha_Omenohu 04-29-07, 01:17 PM	Those are both considered to be parts of Midgard. Midgard is divided up into the following "nations": Mannheim, Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Nidavellir and Svartalfheim, ruled by men, frost giants, fire giants, dwarves and dark elves (Svart Alfar) respectively.
Runepriest 04-29-07, 02:12 PM	Thank You! You get 3 :cookie: and a :dragon:
Einvaldurinn_mikli 04-29-07, 02:38 PM	Thank You! You get 3 :cookie: and a :dragon: Wont the :dragon: eat the :cookie:?
Zousha_Omenohu 04-29-07, 02:55 PM	:dragon: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: Thank you, I suppose. I don't really understand the significance of these items, though. Being new to the boards I am not that well-versed in the customs of this place.
Ares 04-29-07, 03:11 PM	:teach: This could be the beginning of a long record... The planes that are used in the Asgardian Cosmology (the Norse gods have no place in the Great Wheel), include Midgard (the equivalent of the Material Plane), Asgard and Niflheim (which are considered outer planes). That is if you go for 3.+ flavor. In the old days, Ysgard worked quite nicely.:cool:
Runepriest 04-29-07, 03:16 PM	:dragon: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: Thank you, I suppose. I don't really understand the significance of these items, though. Being new to the boards I am not that well-versed in the customs of this place. you are supposed to display them in your signature.
Zousha_Omenohu 04-29-07, 04:30 PM	Forgive me for asking, but why?
Runepriest 04-29-07, 04:34 PM	Your forgiven. I do not know why actually. I just know your supposed to.
Ares 04-29-07, 06:11 PM	Your forgiven. I do not know why actually. I just know your supposed to. Not really. You don't have to do anything with them. Basically everyone's just trying to be friendly and cute with you. Not a biggie.:)
Runepriest 04-30-07, 07:30 PM	3) Are so craptacular in thought that it is obvious that the poster will argue their point until Hell freezes over, just to tell themselves that they are right. Hell is a village in Iceland. I'm responding to something from your sig.
gullas 04-30-07, 08:00 PM	AH the Aesir..... really liked when Loki changed himself into a female horse to distract a horse and he gave birth to Odins horse:D
JollyRotten 04-30-07, 08:22 PM	Jez shut up moaning heres the Norse lot.............. http://www.worldsofimagination.com/twenty%20worlds%20atlantis%20Midgard%20G ods.htm no applause just throw money...:rolleyes:
Erato 04-30-07, 08:25 PM	Just for the record, I think they screwed up on the Nordic mythology. I can understand why they made Odin NG, to fit in with the leaders of the other pantheons. (Even if he was said to use trickery to get the mightiest warriors killed, to strengthen his own army with them). But as mentioned, the planes have little to do with the actual mythological worlds.:rant: And having Loki as greater a god, and not Freya (or Njord for that matter) :confused: Freya was a very powerful goddess (some sources state that the dead warriors were split evenly between her and Odin), while Loki was more of a trickster, getting his influence by deceit, not power, and was rarely (if ever) actually worshipped. Then there’s Sif as a war goddess. Her name is actually supposed to mean ‘wife’ or ‘relative’, and her main role was as mother and wife. And then there’s the pictures (oh the horror! :gah: ) Frey has an absolutely ridiculous mustache. Freya looks like a sick anorectic :tantrum: And Sif looks nothing like a wife and mother, and everything like another iconic fantasy porn queen. The other pantheons I can accept (even if they dressed Athena in skimpy clothing :rolleyes: , named Heracles ‘Hercules’, made Hekate an intermediate god and Demeter a lesser, and missed a good deal of the Egyptian deities), but the Norse gods are not worth the paper they’re written on :mad: Sorry, needed to rant :embarrass Edit: Forgot about Thor. His picture looks like a dwarf on steroids.
Zousha_Omenohu 04-30-07, 08:40 PM	Well, to be honest, I have to agree. However, this is Norse mythology adapted to D&D rules. If you had the Aesir doing what they normally did, you wouldn't be able to stat it now, would you? :D I agree with what you said about the pictures. Some of them were pretty strange. I especially didn't like Freya's, but I thought that Hel's fit her description perfectly. And I felt that Thor's was just plain embarassing. His muscles had muscles! :uh-huh: Also, THRYM AND SURTUR WEREN'T GODS! THEY WERE GIANTS DAGNABBIT!!!:rant: I suppose you can't blame Wizards for trying, there are so many variations in the myths themselves that there could never be a truly consistant mythical pantheon.
Runepriest 04-30-07, 09:02 PM	I can understand all the mistakes wizard made with all the variations. Bonus Q: do any of you play AoM?
Zousha_Omenohu 05-01-07, 06:49 PM	"You may feel less like fighting after I pull off your head!" In other words, yes I've played the game a lot. :D Was a bit irritated by the expansion though. You HAD to get a titan quickly in a random map game or you'd be destroyed. No time for building those massive cities and overwhelming armies I love so much. :(
Runepriest 05-01-07, 07:52 PM	For some strange reason, I always have the luck of my opponents building their Titan gate outside their base. I call that siege time. My favorite god path is Thor-Forseti-Bragi-Tyr. Two words: Uber Ulfsfarks. Three more words: Mega Anti-cavalry. I aim for ulfsfark, hersir, and Myth unit relics.
ArcTan 05-02-07, 02:05 AM	That is if you go for 3.+ flavor. In the old days, Ysgard worked quite nicely.:cool: That's if you want to integrate the Norse pantheon into a mishmash cosmology with the Greyhawk pantheon and the Egyptian pantheon and the FR pantheon and the Chinese pantheon and the Lovecraftian pantheon and all the rest. Then the Norse gods get one layer of one Outer Plane to hang out on and feel special in. D&DG presents cosmological alternatives precisely so you can play with the Norse gods in a world actually based on Norse mythology where the Aesir and Vanir can retain their dignity as the sole rulers of Yggdrasil from on high in Asgard.
ArcTan 05-02-07, 02:17 AM	Just for the record, I think they screwed up on the Nordic mythology. It's D&D. What are you gonna do. Frankly, the 3.5 D&DG treatment was better enough than any treatment the Norse pantheon had ever gotten in D&D before that I was fine with it. I can understand why they made Odin NG, to fit in with the leaders of the other pantheons. (Even if he was said to use trickery to get the mightiest warriors killed, to strengthen his own army with them). I don't get the decisions that ended up basically making the Greek pantheon more Chaotic than the Norse. By any reasonable definition of what "Chaos" should mean in the broad sense, the Norse pantheon is far more Chaotic -- far less bound by a sense of "the rightness of things", far more willing to engage in internecine strife and change the definitions of right and wrong around and act for the good of the self -- than the Greek. It reflects, honestly, the difference between Norse and Greek culture -- the latter being the source of most of what I would call "Lawful" in modern Western society. But whatever. If Zeus' dalliances with mortal women make him more Chaotic than Odin's willingness to sacrifice his own worshippers to gain an edge in Ragnarok -- not to mention lying to and fighting with his own siblings to establish primacy over them and manipulating all the other gods in general -- then who am I to argue? (Actually, it says a lot that, if you believe in a monomyth from which the other myths are descended, Odin is basically the Norse version of Hermes and Thor the Norse version of Zeus -- with the trickster god of knowledge usurping the god of the heavens' place as leader. Interesting stuff.) But as mentioned, the planes have little to do with the actual mythological worlds.:rant: And having Loki as greater a god, and not Freya (or Njord for that matter) :confused: Freya was a very powerful goddess (some sources state that the dead warriors were split evenly between her and Odin), while Loki was more of a trickster, getting his influence by deceit, not power, and was rarely (if ever) actually worshipped. However, Loki's importance in the greater scheme of things in mythology -- as opposed to religion -- is very great indeed. He's the pivot on which the ages turn, and all -- the proto-Satan figure of the Eddas. He's the *prototype*, in fact, of the "Evil God" or "Dark God" figure, at least in his Eddic version. Then there’s Sif as a war goddess. Her name is actually supposed to mean ‘wife’ or ‘relative’, and her main role was as mother and wife. Yeah, that was stupid. I think it was their ill-advised concession to PC-ness, to rewrite history and give Thor a wife who was his equal in battle (when the real mythological Thor would never have married anyone who was his equal in anything). Sif the badass warrior princess seems more inspired by Sif from Marvel Comics than any real Norse depiction of Sif. And then there’s the pictures (oh the horror! :gah: ) Frey has an absolutely ridiculous mustache. Freya looks like a sick anorectic :tantrum: And Sif looks nothing like a wife and mother, and everything like another iconic fantasy porn queen. When they found out the Norse pantheon lacked a warrior princess in the mold of Artemis and Athena, they had to make one up. Yes, it's annoying, but again, it's probably a concession to PC-ness -- no one wanted to tell people that if they wanted a badass patron in the Norse pantheon it had to be male, because the Norse just didn't do female war gods. The other pantheons I can accept (even if they dressed Athena in skimpy clothing :rolleyes: She *was* supposed to be renowned for her beauty as well as her wisdom. But yes, her boobs seem to be dangerously close to spilling out in that picture. named Heracles ‘Hercules’, made Hekate an intermediate god and Demeter a lesser It's the D&D bias toward "spellcasters", who are a lot more important in D&D worlds than they were in real ancient societies (because in D&D spells are a super-high-tech power that actually works rather than merely community rituals), so the Necromancers and Wizards and Sorcerers and people need a patron deity, while the farmers don't because farmers are basically irrelevant in D&D. and missed a good deal of the Egyptian deities), but the Norse gods are not worth the paper they’re written on :mad: Sorry, needed to rant :embarrass Edit: Forgot about Thor. His picture looks like a dwarf on steroids. Yeah, well, again, it's D&D. What can you expect? Don't get me started on the way the Chinese Pantheon has been depicted (I'm really glad they just left it out when 3.5 rolled around).
ArcTan 05-02-07, 02:19 AM	Well, to be honest, I have to agree. However, this is Norse mythology adapted to D&D rules. If you had the Aesir doing what they normally did, you wouldn't be able to stat it now, would you? :D I agree with what you said about the pictures. Some of them were pretty strange. I especially didn't like Freya's, but I thought that Hel's fit her description perfectly. And I felt that Thor's was just plain embarassing. His muscles had muscles! :uh-huh: Also, THRYM AND SURTUR WEREN'T GODS! THEY WERE GIANTS DAGNABBIT!!!:rant: I suppose you can't blame Wizards for trying, there are so many variations in the myths themselves that there could never be a truly consistant mythical pantheon. In a Norse mythological context, a "Giant" or Jotun *was* a god -- best defined as a "demon" or "dark god" or "evil god", i.e. a being not worshipped by men who was considered an enemy of everything the Norse civilization stood for, but was itself as powerful as the gods and capable of being an ally of the gods or a major threat to the gods. Making Thrym and Surtur non-gods wouldn't've made sense from a D&DG perspective, since they are beings who are ultimately responsible for the destruction of the gods and therefore exist on their level -- just as with Apep and the Egyptian Pantheon, or the Greek Pantheon and the Titans and Typhon (both of whom should've gotten namechecked more than they did).