Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrazyOzzy 01-02-08, 08:29 AM	Hi there. I was wondering where could I find more info on the aforementionned subjects? I know of Complete Divine and BoED but info on the "good" side seems to be lacking compared to info on the "bad side". For example they have : Libris Mortis, Fiendish Codex I & II, Fiend Folio, BoVD, etc. Are there any other books I could be interested in? Cheers :)
Naderion 01-02-08, 08:59 AM	I think that's all that wizards has published on this subject. There have been some very good planescape boxes, but they are out of print since 10 years and are traded at several times their retail price when you are lucky to find them.
Zousha_Omenohu 01-02-08, 12:10 PM	You know, this leads to a pretty good question. Why the evil stuff gets so much coverage, while the good guys barely get any sort of attention?
Witch 01-02-08, 12:26 PM	Because good guys basically make the PCs less important, while evil guys make the PCs more important.
CrazyOzzy 01-02-08, 12:45 PM	Because good guys basically make the PCs less important, while evil guys make the PCs more important. Good point! Thanks guys.
Zousha_Omenohu 01-02-08, 01:37 PM	Because good guys basically make the PCs less important, while evil guys make the PCs more important. I don't know, it kind of makes me feel less important, since no matter what I do, no matter how many rampaging demons or would-be dark lords I cut down, there's always going to be more evil to be thrown at me until I finally succumb and either die or fall to the dark side. What good is doing good if you know you can't win?
Witch 01-02-08, 01:44 PM	I don't know, it kind of makes me feel less important, since no matter what I do, no matter how many rampaging demons or would-be dark lords I cut down, there's always going to be more evil to be thrown at me until I finally succumb and either die or fall to the dark side. What good is doing good if you know you can't win? Any campaign I've played and finished has had me win by doing good. I don't know about you, but that's standard for campaigns.
Zousha_Omenohu 01-02-08, 02:05 PM	What's apparently standard doesn't seem realistic then. If you take the odds numerically, Evil's got Good outnumbered by a mile. For a pair of forces that are supposed to be balanced, it certainly seems that Evil is the favorite child. I know that it's definately seen as the cooler and more fun to roleplay of the two by the general population of D&D players, since they apparently have fewer restrictions on what they can and can't do, which gives them an excuse to run around gleefully maiming everyone in their path.:mad:
sciborg3 01-02-08, 02:09 PM	I think he means the idea that no matter how much evil one fights there is always more. The way I see the celestials is that they also have realized this and they react differently. Some want to enact an Armageddon scenario because they see the Multiverse is leading to the triumph of evil. This is because the blackguard and the mean shopkeeper can both be evil. And while the shopkeeper might end up on the Outlands near Baator (Hell), too many of these pseudo-evil beings are tipping the scales. Other celestials however believe that because Good and Evil are part of all (at least all sentient) beings, one cannot defeat Evil but must struggle against it for all time. For some of these celestials, the key lies in balancing Good and Evil in the Outer Planes so that mortals will be free to choose between the two. For me, celestials are like the social service personnel, ER doctors in violent neighborhoods, UNICEF workers...people who struggle against overwhelming odds to do good. To help at least one person. And so many celestials have stress-syndromes, are exhausted by the battle, etc. It isn't the prettiest depiction, but I also belief it is realistic...though living in Heaven does ease this compared to mortals who don't have planes of infinite goodness to soothe them. Which is why my celestials have such admiration for people like those I mentioned above. By the way, you can legally download those Planescape box sets for like $6 each at Paizo.com
Shemeska the Marauder 01-02-08, 11:02 PM	Specifically there's a trio of box sets that has more detail on the topic that 3.x sources rarely come close to skimming the surface of: Planes of Law Planes of Chaos Planes of Conflict and also (though not nearly as good) Warriors of Heaven. Additionally, there is some information on the Eladrin that can be found within the various issues of Dungeon magazine's final adventure path 'The Savage Tide', and Dragon 351 has an article that detailed Ecstasy, the Gatetown to Elysium on the Outlands.
Zousha_Omenohu 01-03-08, 12:24 AM	It looks like the Good/Evil conflict takes a backseat to the Law/Chaos conflict in Planescape.
sciborg3 01-03-08, 01:28 AM	Not exactly. Think of it more as trying to raise awareness about the law-chaos axis. That said, I do remember there was conflict between archons and eladrin though I don't know how much of that was fan speculation. Evil was fairly well detailed via Faces of Evil and Hellbound, though Planescape also gave more info on the Good side than had previously been done.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-03-08, 01:35 AM	Evil was fairly well detailed via Faces of Evil and Hellbound, though Planescape also gave more info on the Good side than had previously been done. *nod* The Eladrin and Guardinals didn't even exist prior to Planescape.
Zousha_Omenohu 01-05-08, 12:16 AM	And now the Guardinals are being axed and the Eladrin are becoming a player race. Seems a shame to me.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 12:35 AM	Other Planescape products which I suggest you take a look at are; Warriors of Heaven The three Monstrous Compendiums To answer your other question, many PCs play goodly adventurers or benevolent personalities that bring the good fight to evil and oppose evil in all its forms; they cast down tyrannies and unmask evil puppeteers, etc. It doesn't really make much sense for said player character to assault, rob and pillage a celestial or angel; considering evil beings can be used as BBEGs or as more mundane opposition.
Toran_A_Sunder 01-06-08, 12:59 AM	While many many many people play evil characters or evil parties in evil campaigns furthering the agenda of, well, evil, I'd say the spirit of the game at its inception and through its various incarnations remains the same. Play the good guys, beat the bad guys, and take their stuff. That's just my opinion, take it as you will. As to the question of good vs. evil and why good bothers when evil will never be beaten, I look at this way: Good recognizes that it cannot exist without evil. Light cannot be defined without darkness, etc. Knowing this, and knowing that because of the perceived balance that should be reality evil will never truly be conquered, the mission of Good then becomes to keep evil at bay as much as possible so that it doesn't completely consume existence. So, looking at it that way, Good's triumphs do matter because they keep reality from being completely devoured by the forces of evil. And if the forces of Light and Holy and fluffy baby otters were to just give in, then evil, darkness, tyranny, death, wickedness, etc. would just overwhelm all of reality. So they continue the fight to keep that from happening. Again. Just my opinion.
Deacon Liadon 01-08-08, 07:05 PM	Personally, when looking at these kinds of questions I like to consider the objective morality of the Planescape setting. There's a wonderful adventure: The Deva Spark about a retriever demon that took the celestial spark of a Deva. But the spark began to cause the creature to change its nature and it ends up with the PC's trying to protect the demon from the forces of good that have come to destroy it. In its way, it shows how bad even beings of pure good can be.
Naderion 01-10-08, 04:50 AM	But isn't this a simple misunderstanding? I doubt the celestials knew that the retriever had become a goodie, or maybe didn't belive it.
sciborg3 01-10-08, 09:47 AM	Yeah, I don't like that whole Good is Evil bit. Celestials should be exhausted at times by Evil, but they shouldn't - as a whole - be evil or cruel. Then again, they might not have time for the PCs or perhaps killing one child saves a million worlds...
The Ubbergeek 01-10-08, 07:28 PM	There was a website once ago, I remeber that offered material on this aspect of the multiverse. Including a cryptical take on possible Ancient Celestians...
Furryhowler 01-12-08, 04:47 AM	I don't know, it kind of makes me feel less important, since no matter what I do, no matter how many rampaging demons or would-be dark lords I cut down, there's always going to be more evil to be thrown at me until I finally succumb and either die or fall to the dark side. What good is doing good if you know you can't win? because it is the right thing to do. Evil is obsessed with winning (which is why they will do anything in order to achieve it). Good isnt obsessed with winning, just with doing the right thing. The obsession with winning is how many paladins (for example) fall - the despair at not winning drives them to seek "more power" in order to "win" (cf: Anakin Skywalker); it is fundamentally selfish (demanding that reality meet your demads). Good however isnt selfish, it is selfless. It doesnt demand anything but instead serves rather than seeks to "command".