Is Arcadia a 'Higher Plane'? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is Arcadia a 'Higher Plane'? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Vorpal Tribble
08-22-07, 08:32 PM Was making a template for creatures from the heavens and after writing up one for Arcadia... I realized it wasn't even Good-aligned.

So is it really of the Higher Planes at all? It's no more good supposedly than Mechanus.
ripvanwormer
08-22-07, 08:39 PM It's on the good side of the wheel; that is, it's closer to Elysium than Mechanus is.

The planar traits are just a rough approximation; just because the plane doesn't have the mildly good trait doesn't mean it's not good at all; it's just not good enough to merit the trait.

Arcadia is more a plane of law than it is a plane of good, but yes - it counts as an upper plane.
The Vorpal Tribble
08-22-07, 09:02 PM Wouldn't lawful goodness be Celestia though?

From what it appears to me Arcadia is basically your perfect communist state. Everyone helping one another for the good of the community... but the community comes before anything else.

So while it may theoretically be more 'good' than Mechanus, which cares ONLY about law, it still doesn't seem to be worthy of being a higher plane.

In fact, I just re-read it through and I don't see any mention of celestials taking up residence in Arcadia. Not even archons.
Shemeska the Marauder
08-22-07, 09:31 PM Wouldn't lawful goodness be Celestia though?

Celestia is pure LG, a perfect balance between Law and Good, or depending on your perspective, the archons view Law and Good as the exact same thing, with no ability to functionally differentiate between the concepts. Arcadia is a mix of LG and LN, more Law than Good, while Bytopia is LG/NG, more Good than Law.

The planar traits in the MotP don't do as good a job describing this as they should perhaps.
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-22-07, 09:32 PM You've pretty much got it, I think. It's like what Marx envisioned with communism; no war, no social disputes, and such, everyone follows the law. It's somewhat good, but mostly lawful. It's similar to Ysgard; does all that fighting and rowdiness and the giants primarily good or chaotic?
Thegans
08-22-07, 09:38 PM Wouldn't lawful goodness be Celestia though?

From what it appears to me Arcadia is basically your perfect communist state. Everyone helping one another for the good of the community... but the community comes before anything else.

So while it may theoretically be more 'good' than Mechanus, which cares ONLY about law, it still doesn't seem to be worthy of being a higher plane.

In fact, I just re-read it through and I don't see any mention of celestials taking up residence in Arcadia. Not even archons.

There are nine allignements and seventeen outer planes. There will be some repeats oh and the Arcadian Avenger is probably a celestial. It's in MM5
ripvanwormer
08-22-07, 10:33 PM Arcadia is as good as Ysgard is. It's also as good as Pandemonium and Acheron are evil, which is to say not completely.

There are essentially three LG planes - Arcadia, Celestia, and Bytopia. There are also three LN planes - Acheron, Mechanus, and Arcadia - and three NG planes - Bytopia, Elysium, and the Beastlands. There are three planes for each alignment except pure neutrality, but some planes do double-duty. Arcadia is one of those planes, both LG and LN and neither, existing somewhere in between.

Whether you count it as an upper plane or not is really somewhat arbitrary. It's always been counted as one in D&D, but - for example - Gehenna and Bytopia are as lawful as Arcadia is good, but Gehenna and Bytopia aren't usually considered planes of law. So there's a bit of a double standard.

Archons normally stick to their own plane, Mount Celestia, but they occasionally come to Arcadia. Arcadia uses encounter table 7-8, "Heavenly Encounters," in the Manual of the Planes, which contains a number of archons and other celestials.
Glimm
08-22-07, 11:34 PM If you want the planar traits to better reflect Arcadia being good, you can always make planar traits more severe throughout the Great Wheel. If you do this Arcadia could be weakly good-aligned and strongly lawful-aligned. This stresses that Arcadia is good, but it also makes the planes harsher towards creatures with opposing alignments, which you may or may not like.
wickederror
08-23-07, 12:21 AM It's not quite good enough to be "good" but not bad enough to be completely indifferent, due to the need for perfection.
Perfection automatically takes place over goodness in Arcadia.

Such a lack of compassion would deny the possiblity of good, but under the concept that evil causes corruption it should never exist in perfect Arcadia...at least not enough to cause corruption. If goodness is in the way of perfection then goodness must be discarded so perfection can exist, but goodness isn't such a corruptable force as evil, so it existance isn't rooted out in Arcadia like the corruptable forces of evil.

This sort of makes them good by default most of the time but not by intention.

This is where Jeff, the god of biscuts is from.
ArcTan
08-23-07, 02:26 AM The planar traits are just a rough approximation; just because the plane doesn't have the mildly good trait doesn't mean it's not good at all; it's just not good enough to merit the trait.

...And yet no one listens to me when I point this out about the Positive Energy and Negative Energy Planes.
Naderion
08-23-07, 02:39 AM You could also ask 'are Archeron and Pandemonium lower planes?' and I think few people would disagree there.
ripvanwormer
08-23-07, 03:02 AM ...And yet no one listens to me when I point this out about the Positive Energy and Negative Energy Planes.

Arcadia is an Outer Plane; alignment is part of its nature, and even if a component is subtle, it can still make up an integral part of its substance. The energy planes are Inner Planes; they don't have alignments. They simply are, with neither altruism nor malice.

But we're both in danger of thread-jacking, now.
lint trap
08-23-07, 08:11 PM Since, as folks have pointed out, nothing prevents a plane from serving "double duty" in categorizations, I've always divided the Outer Planes like this:

Upper Planes - Mount Celestia through Aborea
Lower Planes - the Abyss through Baator
Axiomatic Planes - Baator through Mount Celestia
Anarchic Planes - Aborea through the Abyss
Neutral Planes - Elysium, Limbo, the Gray Waste, Mechanus, and the Outlands

That way, there are five planes in each of the five alignment categories. The Great Wheel just loves symetry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 08-22-07, 08:32 PM	Was making a template for creatures from the heavens and after writing up one for Arcadia... I realized it wasn't even Good-aligned. So is it really of the Higher Planes at all? It's no more good supposedly than Mechanus.
ripvanwormer 08-22-07, 08:39 PM	It's on the good side of the wheel; that is, it's closer to Elysium than Mechanus is. The planar traits are just a rough approximation; just because the plane doesn't have the mildly good trait doesn't mean it's not good at all; it's just not good enough to merit the trait. Arcadia is more a plane of law than it is a plane of good, but yes - it counts as an upper plane.
The Vorpal Tribble 08-22-07, 09:02 PM	Wouldn't lawful goodness be Celestia though? From what it appears to me Arcadia is basically your perfect communist state. Everyone helping one another for the good of the community... but the community comes before anything else. So while it may theoretically be more 'good' than Mechanus, which cares ONLY about law, it still doesn't seem to be worthy of being a higher plane. In fact, I just re-read it through and I don't see any mention of celestials taking up residence in Arcadia. Not even archons.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-22-07, 09:31 PM	Wouldn't lawful goodness be Celestia though? Celestia is pure LG, a perfect balance between Law and Good, or depending on your perspective, the archons view Law and Good as the exact same thing, with no ability to functionally differentiate between the concepts. Arcadia is a mix of LG and LN, more Law than Good, while Bytopia is LG/NG, more Good than Law. The planar traits in the MotP don't do as good a job describing this as they should perhaps.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-22-07, 09:32 PM	You've pretty much got it, I think. It's like what Marx envisioned with communism; no war, no social disputes, and such, everyone follows the law. It's somewhat good, but mostly lawful. It's similar to Ysgard; does all that fighting and rowdiness and the giants primarily good or chaotic?
Thegans 08-22-07, 09:38 PM	Wouldn't lawful goodness be Celestia though? From what it appears to me Arcadia is basically your perfect communist state. Everyone helping one another for the good of the community... but the community comes before anything else. So while it may theoretically be more 'good' than Mechanus, which cares ONLY about law, it still doesn't seem to be worthy of being a higher plane. In fact, I just re-read it through and I don't see any mention of celestials taking up residence in Arcadia. Not even archons. There are nine allignements and seventeen outer planes. There will be some repeats oh and the Arcadian Avenger is probably a celestial. It's in MM5
ripvanwormer 08-22-07, 10:33 PM	Arcadia is as good as Ysgard is. It's also as good as Pandemonium and Acheron are evil, which is to say not completely. There are essentially three LG planes - Arcadia, Celestia, and Bytopia. There are also three LN planes - Acheron, Mechanus, and Arcadia - and three NG planes - Bytopia, Elysium, and the Beastlands. There are three planes for each alignment except pure neutrality, but some planes do double-duty. Arcadia is one of those planes, both LG and LN and neither, existing somewhere in between. Whether you count it as an upper plane or not is really somewhat arbitrary. It's always been counted as one in D&D, but - for example - Gehenna and Bytopia are as lawful as Arcadia is good, but Gehenna and Bytopia aren't usually considered planes of law. So there's a bit of a double standard. Archons normally stick to their own plane, Mount Celestia, but they occasionally come to Arcadia. Arcadia uses encounter table 7-8, "Heavenly Encounters," in the Manual of the Planes, which contains a number of archons and other celestials.
Glimm 08-22-07, 11:34 PM	If you want the planar traits to better reflect Arcadia being good, you can always make planar traits more severe throughout the Great Wheel. If you do this Arcadia could be weakly good-aligned and strongly lawful-aligned. This stresses that Arcadia is good, but it also makes the planes harsher towards creatures with opposing alignments, which you may or may not like.
wickederror 08-23-07, 12:21 AM	It's not quite good enough to be "good" but not bad enough to be completely indifferent, due to the need for perfection. Perfection automatically takes place over goodness in Arcadia. Such a lack of compassion would deny the possiblity of good, but under the concept that evil causes corruption it should never exist in perfect Arcadia...at least not enough to cause corruption. If goodness is in the way of perfection then goodness must be discarded so perfection can exist, but goodness isn't such a corruptable force as evil, so it existance isn't rooted out in Arcadia like the corruptable forces of evil. This sort of makes them good by default most of the time but not by intention. This is where Jeff, the god of biscuts is from.
ArcTan 08-23-07, 02:26 AM	The planar traits are just a rough approximation; just because the plane doesn't have the mildly good trait doesn't mean it's not good at all; it's just not good enough to merit the trait. ...And yet no one listens to me when I point this out about the Positive Energy and Negative Energy Planes.
Naderion 08-23-07, 02:39 AM	You could also ask 'are Archeron and Pandemonium lower planes?' and I think few people would disagree there.
ripvanwormer 08-23-07, 03:02 AM	...And yet no one listens to me when I point this out about the Positive Energy and Negative Energy Planes. Arcadia is an Outer Plane; alignment is part of its nature, and even if a component is subtle, it can still make up an integral part of its substance. The energy planes are Inner Planes; they don't have alignments. They simply are, with neither altruism nor malice. But we're both in danger of thread-jacking, now.
lint trap 08-23-07, 08:11 PM	Since, as folks have pointed out, nothing prevents a plane from serving "double duty" in categorizations, I've always divided the Outer Planes like this: Upper Planes - Mount Celestia through Aborea Lower Planes - the Abyss through Baator Axiomatic Planes - Baator through Mount Celestia Anarchic Planes - Aborea through the Abyss Neutral Planes - Elysium, Limbo, the Gray Waste, Mechanus, and the Outlands That way, there are five planes in each of the five alignment categories. The Great Wheel just loves symetry.