Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 02-26-08, 06:34 PM	I'm looking at the entry for Hercules on page 123 of Deities and Demigods. I count 5 salient divine abilities. As a demigod (1 SDA) with 5 divine ranks (5 SDA) shouldn't he have a total of 6 SDA? I was thinking of creating an SDA for him, calling Stunning Blows or something like that. In the story of how he fought the Nemian lion, he stunned it with an olive tree that he ripped out of the ground and used as a club. The SDA would require, when he used it, a target hit by him with a blunt weapon to make a saving throw or be stunned for a round. The DC would be equal to 10 + 10 (10th-level ability) + Strength bonus, or 42 normally, 47 while raging. How does that sound? Thanks! :)
Kursk 02-26-08, 07:27 PM	I'm looking at the entry for Hercules on page 123 of Deities and Demigods. I count 5 salient divine abilities. As a demigod (1 SDA) with 5 divine ranks (5 SDA) shouldn't he have a total of 6 SDA? I was thinking of creating an SDA for him, calling Stunning Blows or something like that. In the story of how he fought the Nemian lion, he stunned it with an olive tree that he ripped out of the ground and used as a club. The SDA would require, when he used it, a target hit by him with a blunt weapon to make a saving throw or be stunned for a round. The DC would be equal to 10 + 10 (10th-level ability) + Strength bonus, or 42 normally, 47 while raging. How does that sound? Thanks! :) He killed it I thought.
Thorsbjorn 02-26-08, 07:37 PM	He killed it I thought. Yes. After he stunned it he choked it to death.
Kursk 02-26-08, 07:40 PM	Yes. After he stunned it he choked it to death. Oh, yes.
Kain_Darkwind 02-27-08, 12:32 AM	Here are two versions I did of Hercules. The first is my Alternate World version, where he (and any other god) uses the gestalt rules and less HD. The second is an old write up I did for Dicefreaks' deities. Divine Toughness is a SDA I made myself. It is like Improved Toughness, except that it gives +DvR hp per HD, rather than +1 hp per HD. Alternate Herc Hercules Demigod Home Plane: Olympus Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Strength, adventure Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG Domains: Chaos, Luck, Strength Favored Weapon: Greatclub Medium Outsider (Chaotic Good) Divine Rank: 5 HD: 30d12+600 (960 hp) Initiative: +16 (+5 Dex, +8 superior initiative) Speed: 100 ft. Armor Class: 51 (+5 Dex, +4 armor, +5 divine, +11 deflection, +17 natural) touch 31, flatfooted 51 Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+96 Attacks: Greatclub +70 melee (1d10+51 and bull rush 19-20/x3) or unarmed strike +61 melee (1d6+30 19-20/x2) Full Attack: Greatclub +70/+65/+60/+55 melee (1d10+51 and bull rush 19-20/x3) or unarmed strike +61/+56/+51/+46 melee (1d6+30 19-20/x2) Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Domain powers, spell-like abilities, mighty rage 8/day Special Qualities: Damage reduction 20/epic, damage reduction 8/-, divine qualities, improved uncanny dodge, indomitable will, spell resistance 45, tireless rage, trap sense +10, uncanny dodge Saves: Fort +37, Ref +21, Will +18 Abilities: Str 55, Dex 20, Con 40, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 32 Skills: Bluff +47, Climb +58, Escape Artist +40, Intimidate +51, Jump +74, Spot +24, Survival +22, Swim +58 Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Earth’s Embrace, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (greatclub), Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical (all martial weapons)*, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Run, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (all martial weapons)*, Weapon Specialization (all martial weapons)*, Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Epic Endurance, Epic Weapon Focus (greatclub), Epic Weapon Focus (unarmed), Epic Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Epic Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Legendary Wrestler, Ruinous Rage, Superior Initiative Salient Divine Abilities: Divine Fast Healing, Divine Toughness, Divine Weapon Focus (greatclub), Divine Weapon Mastery, Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Indomitable Strength Spell Like Abilities: At will- cloak of chaos, divine favor, divine power, enlarge person, greater teleport, mass bull strength, protection from law, righteous might, word of chaos. Caster level 35th (Chaotic spells 36th); DC 26 + spell level. Mighty Rage: The following changes are in effect while Hercules rages: AC 49; Hp 1,080; Attack +69, Damage 1d10+57/1d6+34, saves Fort +41, Will +22, Str 63 Con 48. All Str/Con-based skills increase by +4. Hercules can use his rage 8/day, and it lasts for 22 rounds at a time. He is not winded afterwards. Other Divine Powers: Alter Reality Hercules may use an amplified version of the wish spell with regard to his portfolio. This ability costs him no XP, and requires a standard action to implement. - Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, death effects, disease, disintegration, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation -Domain Powers: Cast Chaotic spells at +1 caster level, 5/day can reroll a die roll, 5/day can add +5 to strength score for 5 rounds. -Godly Realm -Remote communication Senses: Hercules can see, hear, touch, and smell at a distance of 5 miles. As a standard action, Hercules can perceive anything within 5 miles of his servants or worshippers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken in the last hour. He can extend his senses up to 2 locations at once. He may block the sensing power of deities of his rank or lower in up to two locations at once for 5 hours. Portfolio Sense: Hercules is aware of any act or event involving stamina or physical prowess that affects 1000 or more people. Automatic Actions: Hercules can use strength or Dex based skill as a free action if the DC for the task is 15 or lower. He may not use any skills that require movement. He can perform up to 2 such free actions each round. Create Magic Items: I don’t care what the rules are, Hercules doesn’t do this. Possessions: Hercules owns a +5 greatclub with the properties of a maul of the Titans. (Deals triple damage against nonliving material.) Creature's struck by the club must make opposed Strength checks as if they had been successfully bull rushed, with the wielder of the club gaining a +5 competence bonus on the check. He also wears the Nemian Lion skin, in the form of a cloak. This major artifact has an armor bonus of +5, and all slashing or piercing damage dealt to its wearer is halved. (This halving is done before any damage reduction is taken into account) DF Herc Hercules Demigod Home Plane: Olympus Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Strength, adventure Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG Domains: Chaos, Luck, Strength Favored Weapon: Greatclub Fighter 25/Barbarian 25 Medium Outsider (Chaotic Good) Divine Rank: 5 HD: 25d10+25d12+1100 (1650 hp) Initiative: +16 (+8 dex, +8 superior initiative) Speed: 100 ft AC: 73 (+8 dex, +20 armor, +5 divine, +9 deflection, +21 natural) Touch 33, Flatfooted 73 Base Attack/Grapple: +35/+137 Attacks: +10 Greatclub +116 melee (2d8+66 19-20/x3 damage) or +5 Composite longbow +56 ranged (1d10+34) Full Attack: +10 Greatclub +116/+111/+106/+101 melee (2d8+66 19-20/x3 damage) Face/Reach: 5ft/5ft Special Attacks: Domain Powers, SDAs, Spell like abilities, Mighty Rage 7/day Special Qualities: Divine aura (50’, DC 24), Divine Immunities, DR 35/epic and adamantine, DR 10/-, Fast Heal 25, Fast Movement, Godly Communication, Godly Realm, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Indomitable Will, SR 62, Tireless Rage, Trap sense +8, Uncanny Dodge Saves: Fort +55, Ref +35, Will +27 Abilities: Str 69, Dex 27, Con 53, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 29 Skills: Bluff +18, Climb +87, Diplomacy +18, Escape Artist +29, Gather Information +18, Handle Animal +42, Intimidate +41, Jump +115, Perform (any) +18, Ride +17, Survival +34, Swim +87 Feats: Cleave, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Earth’s Embrace, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatclub), Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical (Greatclub), Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Toughness, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monkey Grip, Run, Power Attack, Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Weapon Specialization (Greatclub) Epic Feats: Damage Reduction, Epic Endurance, Epic Reputation, Epic Speed, Epic Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Epic Weapon Specialization (Greatclub), Incite Rage, Legendary Wrestler, Superior Initiative SDAs: Divine Blessing: Strength, Divine Fast Healing, Divine Weapon Focus: Greatclub, Divine Weapon Specialization: Greatclub, Indomitable Strength, Irresistable Blows: Greatclub Domain Abilities: Cast Chaotic spells at +1 caster level, 5/day can reroll a die roll, 5/day can add +5 to strength score for 1 round. Spell Like Abilities: At will- Chaos, Luck and Strength Domain Spells, teleport w/out error. Caster Level 15th.(Chaotic spells 16th) Spell DC 24+ spell level. Mighty Rage: The following changes are in effect while Hercules rages: AC 71; Hp 2,050; Atk +124, Damage 2d8+72, saves Fort +59, Ref +35, Will +31, Str 77 Con 61. All str/con based skills increase by +4. Hercules can use his rage 7/day, and it lasts for 28 rounds at a time. He is not winded afterwards. Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation. Other Divine Powers: Alter Reality Hercules can use wish with regard to any action that involves physical strength or stamina; he cannot duplicate spells though. It is a standard action for Hercules to alter reality in this fashion. Hercules also gains the following benefits: Hercules adds +29 to his melee attack bonus and +8 to his ranged attack bonus. Senses: Hercules can see, hear, touch, and smell at a distance of 5 miles. As a standard action, Hercules can perceive anything within 5 miles of his servants or worshippers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken in the last hour. He can extend his senses up to 2 locations at once. He may block the sensing power of deities of his rank or lower in up to two locations at once for 5 hours. Portfolio Sense: Hercules is aware of any act or event involving stamina or physical prowess that affects 1000 or more people. Automatic Action: Hercules can use strength or dex based skill as a free action if the DC for the task is 15 or lower. He may not use any skills that require movement. He can perform up to 2 such free actions each round. Create Magical Items: I don’t care what the rules are, Hercules doesn’t do this. Possessions: Hercules owns a +10 greatclub with the properties of a maul of the Titans. (Deals triple damage against nonliving material.) He also possesses the Nemian Lion skin, in the form of a cloak. This major artifact has an Armor bonus of +20, and all slashing or piercing damage dealt to its wearer is halved. (This halving is done before DR is taken into account) Hercules also sometimes uses a bow, when he does he uses a specially modified mighty composite longbow +5. This bow has an adjustable pull, so he can use it regardless of his current strength score.
Cartigan 02-27-08, 09:25 AM	Yes. After he stunned it he choked it to death. I would like to take a time out to say Hercules was a bad ass.
Thorsbjorn 02-27-08, 12:33 PM	Here are two versions I did of Hercules. The first is my Alternate World version, where he (and any other god) uses the gestalt rules and less HD. The second is an old write up I did for Dicefreaks' deities. Divine Toughness is a SDA I made myself. It is like Improved Toughness, except that it gives +DvR hp per HD, rather than +1 hp per HD. Alternate Herc Hercules Demigod Home Plane: Olympus Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Strength, adventure Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG Domains: Chaos, Luck, Strength Favored Weapon: Greatclub Medium Outsider (Chaotic Good) Divine Rank: 5 HD: 30d12+600 (960 hp) Initiative: +16 (+5 Dex, +8 superior initiative) Speed: 100 ft. Armor Class: 51 (+5 Dex, +4 armor, +5 divine, +11 deflection, +17 natural) touch 31, flatfooted 51 Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+96 Attacks: Greatclub +70 melee (1d10+51 and bull rush 19-20/x3) or unarmed strike +61 melee (1d6+30 19-20/x2) Full Attack: Greatclub +70/+65/+60/+55 melee (1d10+51 and bull rush 19-20/x3) or unarmed strike +61/+56/+51/+46 melee (1d6+30 19-20/x2) Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Domain powers, spell-like abilities, mighty rage 8/day Special Qualities: Damage reduction 20/epic, damage reduction 8/-, divine qualities, improved uncanny dodge, indomitable will, spell resistance 45, tireless rage, trap sense +10, uncanny dodge Saves: Fort +37, Ref +21, Will +18 Abilities: Str 55, Dex 20, Con 40, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 32 Skills: Bluff +47, Climb +58, Escape Artist +40, Intimidate +51, Jump +74, Spot +24, Survival +22, Swim +58 Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Earth’s Embrace, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (greatclub), Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical (all martial weapons)*, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Run, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (all martial weapons)*, Weapon Specialization (all martial weapons)*, Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Epic Endurance, Epic Weapon Focus (greatclub), Epic Weapon Focus (unarmed), Epic Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Epic Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Legendary Wrestler, Ruinous Rage, Superior Initiative Salient Divine Abilities: Divine Fast Healing, Divine Toughness, Divine Weapon Focus (greatclub), Divine Weapon Mastery, Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Indomitable Strength Spell Like Abilities: At will- cloak of chaos, divine favor, divine power, enlarge person, greater teleport, mass bull strength, protection from law, righteous might, word of chaos. Caster level 35th (Chaotic spells 36th); DC 26 + spell level. Mighty Rage: The following changes are in effect while Hercules rages: AC 49; Hp 1,080; Attack +69, Damage 1d10+57/1d6+34, saves Fort +41, Will +22, Str 63 Con 48. All Str/Con-based skills increase by +4. Hercules can use his rage 8/day, and it lasts for 22 rounds at a time. He is not winded afterwards. Other Divine Powers: Alter Reality Hercules may use an amplified version of the wish spell with regard to his portfolio. This ability costs him no XP, and requires a standard action to implement. - Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, death effects, disease, disintegration, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation -Domain Powers: Cast Chaotic spells at +1 caster level, 5/day can reroll a die roll, 5/day can add +5 to strength score for 5 rounds. -Godly Realm -Remote communication Senses: Hercules can see, hear, touch, and smell at a distance of 5 miles. As a standard action, Hercules can perceive anything within 5 miles of his servants or worshippers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken in the last hour. He can extend his senses up to 2 locations at once. He may block the sensing power of deities of his rank or lower in up to two locations at once for 5 hours. Portfolio Sense: Hercules is aware of any act or event involving stamina or physical prowess that affects 1000 or more people. Automatic Actions: Hercules can use strength or Dex based skill as a free action if the DC for the task is 15 or lower. He may not use any skills that require movement. He can perform up to 2 such free actions each round. Create Magic Items: I don’t care what the rules are, Hercules doesn’t do this. Possessions: Hercules owns a +5 greatclub with the properties of a maul of the Titans. (Deals triple damage against nonliving material.) Creature's struck by the club must make opposed Strength checks as if they had been successfully bull rushed, with the wielder of the club gaining a +5 competence bonus on the check. He also wears the Nemian Lion skin, in the form of a cloak. This major artifact has an armor bonus of +5, and all slashing or piercing damage dealt to its wearer is halved. (This halving is done before any damage reduction is taken into account) DF Herc Hercules Demigod Home Plane: Olympus Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Strength, adventure Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG Domains: Chaos, Luck, Strength Favored Weapon: Greatclub Fighter 25/Barbarian 25 Medium Outsider (Chaotic Good) Divine Rank: 5 HD: 25d10+25d12+1100 (1650 hp) Initiative: +16 (+8 dex, +8 superior initiative) Speed: 100 ft AC: 73 (+8 dex, +20 armor, +5 divine, +9 deflection, +21 natural) Touch 33, Flatfooted 73 Base Attack/Grapple: +35/+137 Attacks: +10 Greatclub +116 melee (2d8+66 19-20/x3 damage) or +5 Composite longbow +56 ranged (1d10+34) Full Attack: +10 Greatclub +116/+111/+106/+101 melee (2d8+66 19-20/x3 damage) Face/Reach: 5ft/5ft Special Attacks: Domain Powers, SDAs, Spell like abilities, Mighty Rage 7/day Special Qualities: Divine aura (50’, DC 24), Divine Immunities, DR 35/epic and adamantine, DR 10/-, Fast Heal 25, Fast Movement, Godly Communication, Godly Realm, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Indomitable Will, SR 62, Tireless Rage, Trap sense +8, Uncanny Dodge Saves: Fort +55, Ref +35, Will +27 Abilities: Str 69, Dex 27, Con 53, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 29 Skills: Bluff +18, Climb +87, Diplomacy +18, Escape Artist +29, Gather Information +18, Handle Animal +42, Intimidate +41, Jump +115, Perform (any) +18, Ride +17, Survival +34, Swim +87 Feats: Cleave, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Earth’s Embrace, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatclub), Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical (Greatclub), Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Toughness, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monkey Grip, Run, Power Attack, Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Weapon Specialization (Greatclub) Epic Feats: Damage Reduction, Epic Endurance, Epic Reputation, Epic Speed, Epic Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Epic Weapon Specialization (Greatclub), Incite Rage, Legendary Wrestler, Superior Initiative SDAs: Divine Blessing: Strength, Divine Fast Healing, Divine Weapon Focus: Greatclub, Divine Weapon Specialization: Greatclub, Indomitable Strength, Irresistable Blows: Greatclub Domain Abilities: Cast Chaotic spells at +1 caster level, 5/day can reroll a die roll, 5/day can add +5 to strength score for 1 round. Spell Like Abilities: At will- Chaos, Luck and Strength Domain Spells, teleport w/out error. Caster Level 15th.(Chaotic spells 16th) Spell DC 24+ spell level. Mighty Rage: The following changes are in effect while Hercules rages: AC 71; Hp 2,050; Atk +124, Damage 2d8+72, saves Fort +59, Ref +35, Will +31, Str 77 Con 61. All str/con based skills increase by +4. Hercules can use his rage 7/day, and it lasts for 28 rounds at a time. He is not winded afterwards. Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation. Other Divine Powers: Alter Reality Hercules can use wish with regard to any action that involves physical strength or stamina; he cannot duplicate spells though. It is a standard action for Hercules to alter reality in this fashion. Hercules also gains the following benefits: Hercules adds +29 to his melee attack bonus and +8 to his ranged attack bonus. Senses: Hercules can see, hear, touch, and smell at a distance of 5 miles. As a standard action, Hercules can perceive anything within 5 miles of his servants or worshippers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken in the last hour. He can extend his senses up to 2 locations at once. He may block the sensing power of deities of his rank or lower in up to two locations at once for 5 hours. Portfolio Sense: Hercules is aware of any act or event involving stamina or physical prowess that affects 1000 or more people. Automatic Action: Hercules can use strength or dex based skill as a free action if the DC for the task is 15 or lower. He may not use any skills that require movement. He can perform up to 2 such free actions each round. Create Magical Items: I don’t care what the rules are, Hercules doesn’t do this. Possessions: Hercules owns a +10 greatclub with the properties of a maul of the Titans. (Deals triple damage against nonliving material.) He also possesses the Nemian Lion skin, in the form of a cloak. This major artifact has an Armor bonus of +20, and all slashing or piercing damage dealt to its wearer is halved. (This halving is done before DR is taken into account) Hercules also sometimes uses a bow, when he does he uses a specially modified mighty composite longbow +5. This bow has an adjustable pull, so he can use it regardless of his current strength score. Thanks for both of these versions! I'm in the process actually of making my own version that has an extra 10 levels each of barbarian and fighter. He's got 1020 hit points normally, or 1620 while raging. Since 3.5 already gives barbarians mighty rage at 20th level, I've created a new Epic Rage feat that grants bonuses of +10 to Strength and Constitution. So I improved the Divine Rage SDA to grant a +20 bonus. Your Divine Toughness is very powerful. For your Hercules (are those 30 barbarian levels?) it adds 150 hit points. Do you have a alternate world version of Thor? Assuming you gave Thor only the same number of hit dice as you gave Hercules, Divine Toughness would give him an extra 540 hit points! What is the deal with Hercules and wishes? I'm not sure I follow your intension in either of the versions. Could you explain it in more detail? Thanks. :) Why do you disallow him from making anything? I would like to take a time out to say Hercules was a bad ass. Heh. Indeed! :D So what do you two think of the Stunning Blows SDA? Oh, I forgot to add his divine rank to the DC, which would raise it to 47 normally and 52 while raging. Actually in my version it would be 44 normally and 54 while raging.
Kain_Darkwind 02-27-08, 01:42 PM	Thanks for both of these versions! I'm in the process actually of making my own version that has an extra 10 levels each of barbarian and fighter. He's got 1020 hit points normally, or 1620 while raging. Since 3.5 already gives barbarians mighty rage at 20th level, I've created a new Epic Rage feat that grants bonuses of +10 to Strength and Constitution. So I improved the Divine Rage SDA to grant a +20 bonus. Your Divine Toughness is very powerful. For your Hercules (are those 30 barbarian levels?) it adds 150 hit points. Do you have a alternate world version of Thor? Assuming you gave Thor only the same number of hit dice as you gave Hercules, Divine Toughness would give him an extra 540 hit points! My alternate world version of Thor, as a greater god, has..well, let me just show you. Thor Greater God Home Plane: Ysgard Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Storms, thunder, war Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG Domains: Protection, Strength, War, Weather Favored Weapon: Warhammer Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Good) Divine Rank: 18 HD: 45d12 + 1,485 (2,025 hp) Initiative: +16 (always first) Speed: 70 ft. Armor Class: 72 (+8 Dex, +18 divine, +12 deflection, +24 natural) touch 48, flatfooted 72 Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+109 Attacks: Mjolnir +102 melee (4d10 + 57 /19-20/x5) or Mjolnir +89 ranged (8d10 + 78 plus 5d6 sonic and 5d6 electricity /19-20/x5) Full Attack: Mjolnir +102/+97/+92/+87 melee (4d10 + 57 /19-20/x5) or Mjolnir +89 ranged (8d10 + 78 plus 5d6 sonic and 5d6 electricity /19-20/x5) Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Domain powers, favored enemies (dragons +7, evil outsiders +5, giants +13, goblinoids +5, magical beasts +5, monstrous humanoids +5), spell-like abilities, mighty rage 12/day Special Qualities: Aesir, animal companion, camouflage, damage reduction 40/magic and adamantine, damage reduction 13/-, divine qualities, evasion, hide in plain sight, improved uncanny dodge, indomitable will, spell resistance 63, swift tracker, tireless rage, trap sense +15, uncanny dodge, woodland stride Saves: Fort +59, Ref +48, Will +44 Abilities: Str 52, Dex 27, Con 40, Int 21, Wis 27, Cha 35 Skills: Climb +87, Craft (weaponsmithing) +51, Disguise +34, Handle Animal +78, Intimidate +78, Jump +87, Listen +74, Ride +74, Spot +64, Survival +74, Swim +87, Use Rope +64 Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Favored Power Attack, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Weapon Focus (warhammer), Greater Weapon Specialization (warhammer),Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical (all martial weapons), Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Track*, Weapon Focus (all martial weapons)*, Weapon Specialization (all martial weapons)*, Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Epic Sunder, Epic Weapon Focus (warhammer), Epic Weapon Specialization (warhammer), Improved Favored Enemy (x3), Incite Rage, Legendary Leaper, Overwhelming Critical (warhammer), Penetrate Damage Reduction (cold iron), Penetrate Damage Reduction (silver), Ruinous Rage, Superior Initiative, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage Salient Divine Abilities: Area Divine Shield, Banestrike (giants), Divine Blast (15/day; 30d12), Divine Blessing (strength), Divine Blessing (constitution), Divine Fast Healing, Divine Inspiration (courage), Divine Shield (18/day, 180 hit points), Divine Spellcaster, Divine Storm, Divine Toughness, Divine Weapon Focus (warhammer), Divine Weapon Mastery, Divine Weapon Specialization (warhammer), Energy Storm (electricity), Energy Storm (sonic), Grow Creature, Increased Damage Reduction, Indomitable Strength, Mass Divine Blast, Power of Nature, Supreme Initiative Mighty Rage: The following changes are in effect while Thor rages: AC 70; Hp 1,935; Melee Attack +94, Damage 4d10+61/8d10+86 (thrown), saves Fort +63, Will +48, Str 60 Con 48. All Str/Con-based skills increase by +4. Any weapon he wields is treated as a thundering weapon (DC 32 to resist deafness). Thor can use his rage 12/day, and it lasts for 22 rounds at a time. He is not winded afterwards. Enemies who view Thor must make a Will save (DC set by Thor's Intimidate check). Those who fail become panicked (if 44HD or less) or shaken (if 45-90HD) Spells: Ranger spells per day: 4/4/4/4/2/2/2/2 Caster level 12th, DC 18+spell level. Spell Like Abilities: At will- divine favor, divine power, enlarge person, greater teleport, hammer storm (as blade barrier, but bludgeoning damage), magic vestment, magic weapon, mass bull strength, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, plane shift, protection from energy, righteous might, shield other, Thor's crushing hand, thunder strike (as flame strike),. Caster level 63rd; DC 40 + spell level. Aesir: As an Aesir, Thor may not cast any spells with the healing descriptor. Other Divine Powers: Alter Reality Thor may use an amplified version of the wish spell with regard to his portfolio. This ability costs him no XP, and requires a standard action to implement. Other Divine Powers - Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, banishment, death effects, disease, disintegration, energy drain, imprisonment, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, and turning/rebuking. -Domain Powers: 18/day, can grant a +18 resistance bonus to the next 18 saving throws. 18/day can add +18 to strength score for 18 rounds. -Godly Realm -Remote communication Senses: Thor can see, hear, touch, and smell at a distance of 18 miles. As a standard action, Thor can perceive anything within 18 miles of his servants or worshippers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken in the last hour. He can extend his senses up to 10 locations at once. He may block the sensing power of deities with a successful rank check in up to ten locations at once for 18 hours. Portfolio Sense: Thor is aware of stuff. Automatic Actions: Thor can use strength based skill as a free action if the DC for the task is 30 or lower. He may not use any skills that require movement. He can perform up to 20 such free actions each round. Create Magic Items: Thor can create any magic weapon or item related to courage, thunder and lightning, or physical might. Possessions: Mjolnir is a +10 adamantine warhammer of throwing and returning. It deals 4d10 points of base damage regardless of its current size. When thrown, it deals double damage, as well as 5d6 points of sonic damage upon impact, to all within a 20 ft. radius. Those creatures who suffer sonic damage are also knocked prone. A Reflex save (DC 45) negates the prone effect. The hammer also deals 5d6 points of electricity damage to all foes within 10 feet of its flight path while thrown. (Reflex 45 for half) The hammer weighs 2 tons. It requires a Strength check DC 26 to lift it at all, and a DC 40 to wield in battle. Any one who picks up the hammer suffers 10d6 points of electrical and 10d6 points of sonic damage. This energy damage ignores resistance and creatures with immunity to electricity or sonic still suffer half damage. Thor wears an enchanted girdle which increases his effective strength. It grants him a +10 bonus on all checks in which having a larger size is beneficial (such as disarm or Intimidate checks) and multiplies his lifting capacity by 10. Thor also wears enchanted gauntlets. These are the only known items which can entirely absorb Mjolnir's electrical and sonic damage. They also provide a +20 bonus against disarm checks. What is the deal with Hercules and wishes? I'm not sure I follow your intension in either of the versions. Could you explain it in more detail? Thanks. :) Ah...that text is actually outdated for Alternate World. Dicefreaks limited Alter Reality because they didn't like the idea of a brute god having spells that ignored spell resistance at just a high caster level and DC as wizardly gods. In alternate world, Alter Reality is as follows (and automatic for any deity), but I haven't updated my gods to account for that. Alter Reality Alter Reality Prerequisite: Cha 29 Benefit: As a one round action, the deity can duplicate the effects of any spell of a level equal to 9 + DvR. The effects are extraordinary in nature and ignore spell resistance. Caster levels where applicable are equal to the deity’s DvR. The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent. This requires 10 minutes of rest per level of the effect times number of subjects effected, 10 minutes per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10 foot cube affected. (Use highest value) The deity can create temporary, non-magical objects that last for one day per rank. These items can weigh no more than 50 pounds per divine rank nor have a volume exceeding 10 cubic feet per divine rank. The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures that last one hour per rank. These items or creatures can weigh no more than 100 pounds per divine rank nor have a volume exceeding 20 cubic feet per divine rank. Creatures can have class levels equal to the deity’s divine rank or own class levels, which ever is higher. A deity creating creatures must rest for 10 minutes times CR times total HD created. A deity creating magic items must rest for 1 minute per 1000 gold pieces of value. The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped requires 1 round of effort and the deity must rest for one day per 10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed. Why do you disallow him from making anything? I just really don't see Herc as the kind of god that makes magic items. Just as I limited the Aesir from using healing spells. So what do you two think of the Stunning Blows SDA? Oh, I forgot to add his divine rank to the DC, which would raise it to 47 normally and 52 while raging. Actually in my version it would be 44 normally and 54 while raging. I actually think it is a little weak for an SDA. I'm fairly sure there are feats that already allow one to stun a creature. Brutal Strike (PHB2) allows you to sicken any creature that fails a Fortitude save if you Power Attack with a bludgeoning weapon. And compared to an SDA that kills creatures that fail Fort saves....well, you can see my point. If I was building a god and I wanted them to stun creatures, I'd just throw it on there and not justify it with an entire SDA. I might make it take up a feat. Stunning Blow: Prereq: BaB +12 As a full round action, you can make a single melee attack against a foe with a bludgeoning weapon. If you hit, the foe must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Str mod) or be stunned for 1 round. You may not use this against a creature that is immune to critical hits.
Thorsbjorn 02-27-08, 02:05 PM	My alternate world version of Thor, as a greater god, has..well, let me just show you. Thor Greater God Home Plane: Ysgard Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Storms, thunder, war Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG Domains: Protection, Strength, War, Weather Favored Weapon: Warhammer Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Good) Divine Rank: 18 HD: 45d12 + 1,485 (2,025 hp) Initiative: +16 (always first) Speed: 70 ft. Armor Class: 72 (+8 Dex, +18 divine, +12 deflection, +24 natural) touch 48, flatfooted 72 Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+109 Attacks: Mjolnir +102 melee (4d10 + 57 /19-20/x5) or Mjolnir +89 ranged (8d10 + 78 plus 5d6 sonic and 5d6 electricity /19-20/x5) Full Attack: Mjolnir +102/+97/+92/+87 melee (4d10 + 57 /19-20/x5) or Mjolnir +89 ranged (8d10 + 78 plus 5d6 sonic and 5d6 electricity /19-20/x5) Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Domain powers, favored enemies (dragons +7, evil outsiders +5, giants +13, goblinoids +5, magical beasts +5, monstrous humanoids +5), spell-like abilities, mighty rage 12/day Special Qualities: Aesir, animal companion, camouflage, damage reduction 40/magic and adamantine, damage reduction 13/-, divine qualities, evasion, hide in plain sight, improved uncanny dodge, indomitable will, spell resistance 63, swift tracker, tireless rage, trap sense +15, uncanny dodge, woodland stride Saves: Fort +59, Ref +48, Will +44 Abilities: Str 52, Dex 27, Con 40, Int 21, Wis 27, Cha 35 Skills: Climb +87, Craft (weaponsmithing) +51, Disguise +34, Handle Animal +78, Intimidate +78, Jump +87, Listen +74, Ride +74, Spot +64, Survival +74, Swim +87, Use Rope +64 Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Favored Power Attack, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Weapon Focus (warhammer), Greater Weapon Specialization (warhammer),Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical (all martial weapons), Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Track*, Weapon Focus (all martial weapons)*, Weapon Specialization (all martial weapons)*, Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Epic Sunder, Epic Weapon Focus (warhammer), Epic Weapon Specialization (warhammer), Improved Favored Enemy (x3), Incite Rage, Legendary Leaper, Overwhelming Critical (warhammer), Penetrate Damage Reduction (cold iron), Penetrate Damage Reduction (silver), Ruinous Rage, Superior Initiative, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage Salient Divine Abilities: Area Divine Shield, Banestrike (giants), Divine Blast (15/day; 30d12), Divine Blessing (strength), Divine Blessing (constitution), Divine Fast Healing, Divine Inspiration (courage), Divine Shield (18/day, 180 hit points), Divine Spellcaster, Divine Storm, Divine Toughness, Divine Weapon Focus (warhammer), Divine Weapon Mastery, Divine Weapon Specialization (warhammer), Energy Storm (electricity), Energy Storm (sonic), Grow Creature, Increased Damage Reduction, Indomitable Strength, Mass Divine Blast, Power of Nature, Supreme Initiative Mighty Rage: The following changes are in effect while Thor rages: AC 70; Hp 1,935; Melee Attack +94, Damage 4d10+61/8d10+86 (thrown), saves Fort +63, Will +48, Str 60 Con 48. All Str/Con-based skills increase by +4. Any weapon he wields is treated as a thundering weapon (DC 32 to resist deafness). Thor can use his rage 12/day, and it lasts for 22 rounds at a time. He is not winded afterwards. Enemies who view Thor must make a Will save (DC set by Thor's Intimidate check). Those who fail become panicked (if 44HD or less) or shaken (if 45-90HD) Spells: Ranger spells per day: 4/4/4/4/2/2/2/2 Caster level 12th, DC 18+spell level. Spell Like Abilities: At will- divine favor, divine power, enlarge person, greater teleport, hammer storm (as blade barrier, but bludgeoning damage), magic vestment, magic weapon, mass bull strength, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, plane shift, protection from energy, righteous might, shield other, Thor's crushing hand, thunder strike (as flame strike),. Caster level 63rd; DC 40 + spell level. Aesir: As an Aesir, Thor may not cast any spells with the healing descriptor. Other Divine Powers: Alter Reality Thor may use an amplified version of the wish spell with regard to his portfolio. This ability costs him no XP, and requires a standard action to implement. Other Divine Powers - Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, banishment, death effects, disease, disintegration, energy drain, imprisonment, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, and turning/rebuking. -Domain Powers: 18/day, can grant a +18 resistance bonus to the next 18 saving throws. 18/day can add +18 to strength score for 18 rounds. -Godly Realm -Remote communication Senses: Thor can see, hear, touch, and smell at a distance of 18 miles. As a standard action, Thor can perceive anything within 18 miles of his servants or worshippers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken in the last hour. He can extend his senses up to 10 locations at once. He may block the sensing power of deities with a successful rank check in up to ten locations at once for 18 hours. Portfolio Sense: Thor is aware of stuff. Automatic Actions: Thor can use strength based skill as a free action if the DC for the task is 30 or lower. He may not use any skills that require movement. He can perform up to 20 such free actions each round. Create Magic Items: Thor can create any magic weapon or item related to courage, thunder and lightning, or physical might. Possessions: Mjolnir is a +10 adamantine warhammer of throwing and returning. It deals 4d10 points of base damage regardless of its current size. When thrown, it deals double damage, as well as 5d6 points of sonic damage upon impact, to all within a 20 ft. radius. Those creatures who suffer sonic damage are also knocked prone. A Reflex save (DC 45) negates the prone effect. The hammer also deals 5d6 points of electricity damage to all foes within 10 feet of its flight path while thrown. (Reflex 45 for half) The hammer weighs 2 tons. It requires a Strength check DC 26 to lift it at all, and a DC 40 to wield in battle. Any one who picks up the hammer suffers 10d6 points of electrical and 10d6 points of sonic damage. This energy damage ignores resistance and creatures with immunity to electricity or sonic still suffer half damage. Thor wears an enchanted girdle which increases his effective strength. It grants him a +10 bonus on all checks in which having a larger size is beneficial (such as disarm or Intimidate checks) and multiplies his lifting capacity by 10. Thor also wears enchanted gauntlets. These are the only known items which can entirely absorb Mjolnir's electrical and sonic damage. They also provide a +20 bonus against disarm checks. Ah...that text is actually outdated for Alternate World. Dicefreaks limited Alter Reality because they didn't like the idea of a brute god having spells that ignored spell resistance at just a high caster level and DC as wizardly gods. In alternate world, Alter Reality is as follows (and automatic for any deity), but I haven't updated my gods to account for that. Alter Reality Alter Reality Prerequisite: Cha 29 Benefit: As a one round action, the deity can duplicate the effects of any spell of a level equal to 9 + DvR. The effects are extraordinary in nature and ignore spell resistance. Caster levels where applicable are equal to the deity’s DvR. The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent. This requires 10 minutes of rest per level of the effect times number of subjects effected, 10 minutes per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10 foot cube affected. (Use highest value) The deity can create temporary, non-magical objects that last for one day per rank. These items can weigh no more than 50 pounds per divine rank nor have a volume exceeding 10 cubic feet per divine rank. The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures that last one hour per rank. These items or creatures can weigh no more than 100 pounds per divine rank nor have a volume exceeding 20 cubic feet per divine rank. Creatures can have class levels equal to the deity’s divine rank or own class levels, which ever is higher. A deity creating creatures must rest for 10 minutes times CR times total HD created. A deity creating magic items must rest for 1 minute per 1000 gold pieces of value. The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped requires 1 round of effort and the deity must rest for one day per 10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed. I just really don't see Herc as the kind of god that makes magic items. Just as I limited the Aesir from using healing spells. I actually think it is a little weak for an SDA. I'm fairly sure there are feats that already allow one to stun a creature. Brutal Strike (PHB2) allows you to sicken any creature that fails a Fortitude save if you Power Attack with a bludgeoning weapon. And compared to an SDA that kills creatures that fail Fort saves....well, you can see my point. If I was building a god and I wanted them to stun creatures, I'd just throw it on there and not justify it with an entire SDA. I might make it take up a feat. Stunning Blow: Prereq: BaB +12 As a full round action, you can make a single melee attack against a foe with a bludgeoning weapon. If you hit, the foe must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Str mod) or be stunned for 1 round. You may not use this against a creature that is immune to critical hits. Thanks. Why does Thor have a lower attack bonus while raging than normally? Why does he do only 3 extra points of damage while raging? Why does Mjolnir do twice as much base damage when thrown?
Kain_Darkwind 02-27-08, 11:48 PM	Thanks. Why does Thor have a lower attack bonus while raging than normally? Why does he do only 3 extra points of damage while raging? Why does Mjolnir do twice as much base damage when thrown? Probably because he's an old build that I haven't had time to go over properly. I might have updated part of him and forgot the rest. Thanks for pointing out the mistakes though, I'll change them on my master copy. As for dealing more damage while thrown, that was intentional...probably to make throwing it (which he often does) a better combat option than it would be otherwise. It still sucks a bit compared to a full attack, but not as much.
Thorsbjorn 02-28-08, 02:47 AM	Probably because he's an old build that I haven't had time to go over properly. I might have updated part of him and forgot the rest. Thanks for pointing out the mistakes though, I'll change them on my master copy. Sure thing. :) As for dealing more damage while thrown, that was intentional...probably to make throwing it (which he often does) a better combat option than it would be otherwise. It still sucks a bit compared to a full attack, but not as much. Yes, missile weapons generally just don't compare favorably to melee weapons under D&D rules. I allow a feat from an old Dragon issue called Dead Eye (not to be confused with the feat of the same name in the recent PHB II) that grants you extra damage equal to your Dexterity bonus when firing at a target not immune to critical hits within 30'. That helps a great deal, as does the variable strength special ability I created for my campaign. I noticed you gave the same thing to your version of Hercules. :) As far as Hercules and making things, I actually specifically gave him 5 ranks in Craft (blacksmithing) because in some fiction I've seen him studying blacksmithing with either the centaur Chiron or his brother Haphaestus. I figured that since he's impatient he managed to pick up only 5 ranks over all those years. :-D In the case of Thor throwing Mjolinir, he loses the extra damage for using two hands as well as any Power Attack that he might apply toward melee attacks. He also loses three iterative attacks, or four if he's raging. So you're right that it's a much weaker option in D&D than it appears to be in the stories. It seems to me that somewhere I came across a feat that allows something like Power Attack with a thrown weapon, but what it's called and whether you might have given it to him I don't know. Even if he did have it he would probably still lose half the benefits of Power Attack since Power Attack gives two for one when wielding a weapon with two hands. I see though that you give Thor a greater damage bonus when he throws the weapon (+78) than when he wields it in melee (+57). How did you achieve that? How did he get Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical with all martial weapons? Did you just give that to him as sets of bonus feats? Edit: Oh, I just found Power Throw on page 111 of Complete Adventurer. It does work like a thrown-weapon Power Attack, except that it requires a prerequisite feat, Brutal Throw. Brutal Throw allows you to use your Strength bonus instead of Dexterity bonus on thrown weapon attack rolls. It doesn't look, however, like you gave Thor either feat.
Kain_Darkwind 02-28-08, 07:08 AM	Sure thing. :) Yes, missile weapons generally just don't compare favorably to melee weapons under D&D rules. I allow a feat from an old Dragon issue called Dead Eye (not to be confused with the feat of the same name in the recent PHB II) that grants you extra damage equal to your Dexterity bonus when firing at a target not immune to critical hits within 30'. That helps a great deal, as does the variable strength special ability I created for my campaign. I noticed you gave the same thing to your version of Hercules. :) As far as Hercules and making things, I actually specifically gave him 5 ranks in Craft (blacksmithing) because in some fiction I've seen him studying blacksmithing with either the centaur Chiron or his brother Haphaestus. I figured that since he's impatient he managed to pick up only 5 ranks over all those years. :-D Good thoughts that I hadn't considered. I still don't see him enchanting gauntlets of ogre power though. (Of course, this is because I still really think of Herc as a quasi deity rather than a DnD demigod. The Greek demigods were much closer to the DvR 0 type of deity than spellgranting, massive SLA list having demigods.) I see though that you give Thor a greater damage bonus when he throws the weapon (+78) than when he wields it in melee (+57). How did you achieve that? How did he get Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical with all martial weapons? Did you just give that to him as sets of bonus feats? The Weapon Focus/Spec/Crit (martial) is from an SDA. Divine Battle Mastery or Divine Weapon Mastery I believe. As for Thor's stat block, you are humiliating me with these issues. I'm going to have to scrub the entire thing and repost it. I'd like to claim that excessive drinking or sleep deprivation caused the mistakes, but I don't think I can do so honestly. It is possible that I doubled all the damage from the hammer. Or something. I'll go through it and figure it out. Edit: Oh, I just found Power Throw on page 111 of Complete Adventurer. It does work like a thrown-weapon Power Attack, except that it requires a prerequisite feat, Brutal Throw. Brutal Throw allows you to use your Strength bonus instead of Dexterity bonus on thrown weapon attack rolls. It doesn't look, however, like you gave Thor either feat. I actually think Thor predates Complete Adventurer which is why that is the case. One more reason to redo him.
Thorsbjorn 02-29-08, 01:18 PM	Good thoughts that I hadn't considered. I still don't see him enchanting gauntlets of ogre power though. (Of course, this is because I still really think of Herc as a quasi deity rather than a DnD demigod. The Greek demigods were much closer to the DvR 0 type of deity than spellgranting, massive SLA list having demigods.) The D&D rules don't really lend themselves to reproducing all the various pagan gods as they appear in the stories. The D&D rules grant all sorts of immunities that don't appear in the stories, in order to have a consistent, logical set of rules. In Greek mythology, Haphaestus made powerful magic items, but I don't really recall any other Greek gods doing anything of the sort. In Norse mythology, many of the best magic items, including Mjolnir, are made by dwarves, not by the gods. So in terms of the actual real-world stories, I'm not sure if it makes any less sense to have Hercules making magic items than to have Zeus, Odin or Thor making them. The Weapon Focus/Spec/Crit (martial) is from an SDA. Divine Battle Mastery or Divine Weapon Mastery I believe. As for Thor's stat block, you are humiliating me with these issues. I'm going to have to scrub the entire thing and repost it. I'd like to claim that excessive drinking or sleep deprivation caused the mistakes, but I don't think I can do so honestly. It is possible that I doubled all the damage from the hammer. Or something. I'll go through it and figure it out. I actually think Thor predates Complete Adventurer which is why that is the case. One more reason to redo him. You put a great deal of thought and work into preparing these versions of Hercules and Thor, and were nice enough to share them with me, so please don't feel bad that I caught a typo or two. As a college instructor I've often told my students that the best way to catch problems in a paper they're writing is to have someone else read it. Even in the class notes that I post for students I find, or the students find, mistakes I've made. So please don't feel bad. I mean, I imagine that you're at least half-joking about feeing humiliated, but I hope you don't feel bad at all for helping me out! :)
Kain_Darkwind 02-29-08, 01:23 PM	The D&D rules don't really lend themselves to reproducing all the various pagan gods as they appear in the stories. The D&D rules grant all sorts of immunities that don't appear in the stories, in order to have a consistent, logical set of rules. In Greek mythology, Haphaestus made powerful magic items, but I don't really recall any other Greek gods doing anything of the sort. In Norse mythology, many of the best magic items, including Mjolnir, are made by dwarves, not by the gods. So in terms of the actual real-world stories, I'm not sure if it makes any less sense to have Hercules making magic items than to have Zeus, Odin or Thor making them. An excellent point, and I will probably take away magic item powers as general powers for the Greek and Norse gods as a result. (Like I took away cure spells from the Aesir) You put a great deal of thought and work into preparing these versions of Hercules and Thor, and were nice enough to share them with me, so please don't feel bad that I caught a typo or two. As a college instructor I've often told my students that the best way to catch problems in a paper they're writing is to have someone else read it. Even in the class notes that I post for students I find, or the students find, mistakes I've made. So please don't feel bad. I mean, I imagine that you're at least half-joking about feeing humiliated, but I hope you don't feel bad at all for helping me out! :) I'm mostly joking. It is just funny, because I typically read through other people's stat blocks pointing out a multitude of errors. To have the tables turned is amusing to me. I actually appreciate anyone who takes the time to point out my errors; it is supremely helpful.
Thorsbjorn 02-29-08, 01:46 PM	An excellent point, and I will probably take away magic item powers as general powers for the Greek and Norse gods as a result. (Like I took away cure spells from the Aesir) I really think this is the wrong way to go. This just weakens the gods further. In most of the stories of the gods, human beings cannot heal or magic magic items either. If you're going to have human being healing and making magic items, you should have gods able to heal and make magic items too. In D&D both healing and the making of magic items are common, something that every PC group and many, many NPCs can do, so the gods should be able to do these things too. In the stories heroes can't just go into the local magic shop or temple to get magic items or healing. In D&D we beef up the heroes, so we need to beef up the gods similarly. I'm mostly joking. It is just funny, because I typically read through other people's stat blocks pointing out a multitude of errors. To have the tables turned is amusing to me. I actually appreciate anyone who takes the time to point out my errors; it is supremely helpful. That's a great attitude! It's always good to be able to take advantage of help that others offer. When I used to write free-lance political columns back in the 1990s I'd always try to get my then-girlfriend to read a draft. She was pretty much my target demographic: someone interested in politics but not a political junkie, with a roughly-average IQ. She would read them and always say that they were great, and I'd have to press her to tell me anything that didn't seem clear. She's often say, "Well it was probably just me, but I didn't understand what you meant by ..." but that was exactly what I wanted to know. Then I'd rewrite the part she didn't understand to ensure it was clear to her. I might end up using Hercules at tomorrow night's session. I'm not sure if we'll get that far or not, but we probably will. It will just involve some wresting, not fighting monsters, so I don't really need to have every bolt tightened, but I'm going to try to get him as complete as possible. I'm thinking now of replacing some of his epic barbarian or epic fighter levels with levels of one my own prestige classes, the monsterslayer. I didn't make it with Hercules in mind, but rather for a PC of mine (my first 3rd-Ed PC, and got my DM to approve it, even though she didn't much like me) but it just hit me the other day that it actually fits Hercules to a t. I'm looking at epic levels of barbarian and fighter, and asking myself whether there's any need for either one specifically. You don't need either in order to get Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, or Epic Rage (my replacement for the Mighty Rage feat). I think over on the 3.5 Update thread at one point I'd agree with requiring an epic level of fighter for Epic Weapon Specialization, but I'm not 100% sure I did and I never entered the change into my house rules. So maybe I'll dump the 10 epic levels of fighter for the 10 levels of (non-epic) monsterslayer. That would lose him 5 epic fighter feats though. Hmm.
Thorsbjorn 02-29-08, 07:12 PM	Alternate Herc Hercules Demigod Home Plane: Olympus Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Strength, adventure Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG Domains: Chaos, Luck, Strength Favored Weapon: Greatclub Medium Outsider (Chaotic Good) [snip] [b]Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Earth’s Embrace, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (greatclub), Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical (all martial weapons)*, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Run, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (all martial weapons)*, Weapon Specialization (all martial weapons)*, Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Epic Endurance, Epic Weapon Focus (greatclub), Epic Weapon Focus (unarmed), Epic Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Epic Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Legendary Wrestler, Ruinous Rage, Superior Initiative Salient Divine Abilities: Divine Fast Healing, Divine Toughness, Divine Weapon Focus (greatclub), Divine Weapon Mastery, Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Indomitable Strength Ok, with 30 levels, he would get 11 level feats, or 12 if you count him as having been human when he gained his levels. I count 23 non-epic feats, not including the ones with an asterisk, and 8 epic feats, for a total of 31 feats. Where are you getting the additional 20 feats? What am I missing? Thanks. :)
Kain_Darkwind 02-29-08, 07:24 PM	Ok, with 30 levels, he would get 11 level feats, or 12 if you count him as having been human when he gained his levels. I count 23 non-epic feats, not including the ones with an asterisk, and 8 epic feats, for a total of 31 feats. Where are you getting the additional 20 feats? What am I missing? Thanks. :) Hercules (and all gods in Alternate World) are built through use of gestalt rules. (2 classes per HD, if you aren't familiar with it) Herc is a fighter/barbarian. So as a 30th level fighter, he gains 16 feats. As a 30th level barbarian, he gains 3 bonus epic feats. As a 30th level character he gains 11 feats. As a human he gains 1 feat. 31 feats total.
SokenzanMarauder 02-29-08, 07:27 PM	Ok, with 30 levels, he would get 11 level feats, or 12 if you count him as having been human when he gained his levels. I count 23 non-epic feats, not including the ones with an asterisk, and 8 epic feats, for a total of 31 feats. Where are you getting the additional 20 feats? What am I missing? Thanks. :)He did say that one was gestalt. Perhaps it was gestalted with Fighter levels? EDIT: Bah! Ninja'd! :P
Thorsbjorn 02-29-08, 07:32 PM	Hercules (and all gods in Alternate World) are built through use of gestalt rules. (2 classes per HD, if you aren't familiar with it) Herc is a fighter/barbarian. So as a 30th level fighter, he gains 16 feats. As a 30th level barbarian, he gains 3 bonus epic feats. As a 30th level character he gains 11 feats. As a human he gains 1 feat. 31 feats total. Oh, forgot you were using gestalt rules. Thanks. I also forgot the bonus feats for epic levels of barbarian. At 30 levels, however, I think he should have only two (24th and 28th). What is "Alternate World?" I notice that you dropped the Divine Might feat. Divine Might requires the use of turn undead attempts. Does Hercules get the ability to turn undead as a demigod? If so I'm not seeing it listed under divine abilities in Chapter 2. Tee hee! ;) Seriously though, thanks! :)
Kain_Darkwind 02-29-08, 07:41 PM	Oh, forgot you were using gestalt rules. Thanks. I also forgot the bonus feats for epic levels of barbarian. At 30 levels, however, I think he should have only two (24th and 28th). Huh. Been doing it wrong for awhile now. What is "Alternate World?" A supremely unimaginative name that I gave my personal stats and collection of houserulings. One could call it my campaign setting, but that would be a far too ambitious name for it. Alternate World Unique Entities (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=276) Alternate World Base Creatures (Revised and New) (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=676) Alternate World House Rules (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=359) (and formulas, new subtypes, feats, SDAs, etc.) I notice that you dropped the Divine Might feat. Divine Might requires the use of turn undead attempts. Does Hercules get the ability to turn undead as a demigod? If so I'm not seeing it listed under divine abilities in Chapter 2. Er...which version of Herc has Divine Might? I don't see it in the official one or in either the DF or Alternate World Herc.
Thorsbjorn 02-29-08, 07:56 PM	Huh. Been doing it wrong for awhile now. A supremely unimaginative name that I gave my personal stats and collection of houserulings. One could call it my campaign setting, but that would be a far too ambitious name for it. Alternate World Unique Entities (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=276) Alternate World Base Creatures (Revised and New) (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=676) Alternate World House Rules (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=359) (and formulas, new subtypes, feats, SDAs, etc.) Er...which version of Herc has Divine Might? I don't see it in the official one or in either the DF or Alternate World Herc. Ok, I thought the first time you mentioned it, as "my Alternate World," that it was your own campaign world, but when you referred to it just as "Alternate World" I thought maybe it was a published product or something. The Hercules in Deities and Demigods has the Divine Might feat.
Kain_Darkwind 02-29-08, 09:40 PM	Ok, I thought the first time you mentioned it, as "my Alternate World," that it was your own campaign world, but when you referred to it just as "Alternate World" I thought maybe it was a published product or something. Heh. Nope, just what I call it. Some people come up with cool names for their settings like Drm or Toril or Eberron. I call mine Alternate World. The Hercules in Deities and Demigods has the Divine Might feat. Eh. A mistake in a 3.0 DnD book? Say it ain't so! :) I guess he thinks he can turn undead. I'm not going to tell the big guy different, but my Alternate World build for him gives him feats he can actually use. I whole heartedly stand behind dropping that feat. And Alertness and Blind-sight.
Kain_Darkwind 02-29-08, 09:51 PM	Ok, I thought the first time you mentioned it, as "my Alternate World," that it was your own campaign world, but when you referred to it just as "Alternate World" I thought maybe it was a published product or something. Heh. Nope, just what I call it. Some people come up with cool names for their settings like Drm or Toril or Eberron. I call mine Alternate World. The Hercules in Deities and Demigods has the Divine Might feat. Eh. A mistake in a 3.0 DnD book? Say it ain't so! :) I guess he thinks he can turn undead. I'm not going to tell the big guy different, but my Alternate World build for him gives him feats he can actually use. I whole heartedly stand behind dropping that feat. And Alertness and Blind-sight.
Thorsbjorn 02-29-08, 09:55 PM	Heh. Nope, just what I call it. Some people come up with cool names for their settings like Drm or Toril or Eberron. I call mine Alternate World. Eh. A mistake in a 3.0 DnD book? Say it ain't so! :) I guess he thinks he can turn undead. I'm not going to tell the big guy different, but my Alternate World build for him gives him feats he can actually use. I whole heartedly stand behind dropping that feat. And Alertness and Blind-sight. Which world is Drm? Why did you drop Alertness and Blindsight 5-ft Radius (and Blind-Fight)?
Kain_Darkwind 03-01-08, 12:18 AM	Which world is Drm? The one in the Godspell Campaign setting. (Although the world might be Midlorr and the main continent Drm...I always get that mixed up. I went for two years thinking the world of Greyhawk was called Greyhawk, and another year thinking it was called the Flaness.) Why did you drop Alertness and Blindsight 5-ft Radius (and Blind-Fight)? A couple reasons. One, I don't like Alertness. +2 to Spot and Listen is great for 3rd level hobgoblin guards, not so impressive on a deity. I'd put Alertness on deities specifically known for their impressive hearing/seeing, like Heimdall, but not on your run of the mill deity. Two, and this one applies to the other two feats that got canned, there have been many released feats in 3.5 that are more fitting for Hercules than those that were available when the 3.0 crew wrote up Deities and Demigods. Knockdown, which is a 3.0 feat I loved, didn't make the cut because I was using 3.5 material for choices. And really, the feats didn't get dropped so much as 'not included'. I didn't look at Hercules in Deities and Demigods when I was writing up my Alternate World build for him. (As opposed to the DF build, which was based off the DdG version.) AW Herc was built from scratch, off my own ideas about Hercules. Which were admittedly influenced to some degree by my knowledge of the earlier builds, but not based directly off them.
Thorsbjorn 03-01-08, 01:44 PM	The one in the Godspell Campaign setting. (Although the world might be Midlorr and the main continent Drm...I always get that mixed up. I went for two years thinking the world of Greyhawk was called Greyhawk, and another year thinking it was called the Flaness.) A couple reasons. One, I don't like Alertness. +2 to Spot and Listen is great for 3rd level hobgoblin guards, not so impressive on a deity. I'd put Alertness on deities specifically known for their impressive hearing/seeing, like Heimdall, but not on your run of the mill deity. Two, and this one applies to the other two feats that got canned, there have been many released feats in 3.5 that are more fitting for Hercules than those that were available when the 3.0 crew wrote up Deities and Demigods. Knockdown, which is a 3.0 feat I loved, didn't make the cut because I was using 3.5 material for choices. And really, the feats didn't get dropped so much as 'not included'. I didn't look at Hercules in Deities and Demigods when I was writing up my Alternate World build for him. (As opposed to the DF build, which was based off the DdG version.) AW Herc was built from scratch, off my own ideas about Hercules. Which were admittedly influenced to some degree by my knowledge of the earlier builds, but not based directly off them. Yeah, Knock-Down was a great feat in 3.0. In 3.0 standing up didn't provoke an attack of opportunity the way it does in 3.5, so that might be why they didn't renew the feat for 3.5. The attack of opportunity makes Knock-Down more powerful, although I'm not sure it makes the feat too powerful. I'm torn between keeping Alertness and giving him Melee Weapon Mastery. Without Alertness he has a +40 Listen bonus and a +31 Spot bonus. Without Melee Weapon Mastery he has a +85 attack bonus with his great club (+95 while raging) and does 1d10+73 points of damage (1d10+93 while raging). Proportionately the +2 bonuses equal about 2% of average damage while raging, 2.5% of normal damage, 5% of the Listen bonus, or 6.5% of the Spot bonus. So proportionately Alertness provides a greater benefit on any die roll. In D&D, however, one typically rolls far more attack rolls than Spot and Listen rolls. So I'm torn. I'm not sure what additional SDA to give my version of Hercules. He doesn't have the Constitution for Divine Fast Healing, although I could rejigger him so that he does. He got four additional ability score increases for the extra 20 levels I gave him, and I added one to Dex to bring it to 26, and 3 to Strength to bring it to 58. Wait! I just realized that for 20 levels he should get five ability score increases! So I could put the 5th one in Constitution and give him Divine Fast Healing. I don't see any chance in the 3.5 update pdf for Deities and Demigods to Divine Fast Healing, so the SDA would give him fast healing 25. I'm also considering Automatic Metamagic and Banestrike (magical beasts). How do you interpret Automatic Metamagic? I don't see any requirement that the deity actually have the metamagic feat to which he or she applies this SDA. Is that how you interpret it? It could be useful to have him able to quicken his spell-like abilities (or his monsterslayer spells) so that he can fight and still use them each round. Considering that he can do miracle as a spell-like ability, that could be very powerful. In my version I had to drop Mobility, Spring Attack and Whirlwind attack to get in all the feats I wanted, so he can't take Divine Battle Mastery. He can already do 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and I've never seen anyone do more than two really. My version also doesn't have the War domain, so can't take Divine Weapon Mastery. Oh, here is a good one: Irresistible Blows! Hee hee! They already have one that does what I was thinking about making up one to do. This one certainly fits with the story of Hercules stunning the Nemean lion. (By the way, speaking of mistakes in Deities and Demigods, "Nemian" appears to be a spelling error, and "Nemean" appears to be the correct spelling.) Other possibilities include Power of Luck or Wound Enemy. Any thoughts? Thanks. :)
Kain_Darkwind 03-01-08, 04:12 PM	Yeah, Knock-Down was a great feat in 3.0. In 3.0 standing up didn't provoke an attack of opportunity the way it does in 3.5, so that might be why they didn't renew the feat for 3.5. The attack of opportunity makes Knock-Down more powerful, although I'm not sure it makes the feat too powerful. I think they 'replaced it' with Awesome Blow, which was nowhere near as good. Or useful for PCs. I'm torn between keeping Alertness and giving him Melee Weapon Mastery. Without Alertness he has a +40 Listen bonus and a +31 Spot bonus. Without Melee Weapon Mastery he has a +85 attack bonus with his great club (+95 while raging) and does 1d10+73 points of damage (1d10+93 while raging). Proportionately the +2 bonuses equal about 2% of average damage while raging, 2.5% of normal damage, 5% of the Listen bonus, or 6.5% of the Spot bonus. So proportionately Alertness provides a greater benefit on any die roll. In D&D, however, one typically rolls far more attack rolls than Spot and Listen rolls. So I'm torn. My design philosophy is this: 'better' = 'more fitting for the character' not 'more mechanically beneficial to the character' A feat like Alertness just doesn't make much sense for Herc. He wasn't particularly known for his sight and hearing. Feats like Legendary Wrestler, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike (if you don't give him a slam attack)....these are a better fit. There is that bludgeoning weapon feat I mentioned earlier that sickens the enemy struck by a Power Attacked hit. These are all much more in line for Herc than Alertness. I'm not sure what additional SDA to give my version of Hercules. He doesn't have the Constitution for Divine Fast Healing, although I could rejigger him so that he does. He got four additional ability score increases for the extra 20 levels I gave him, and I added one to Dex to bring it to 26, and 3 to Strength to bring it to 58. Wait! I just realized that for 20 levels he should get five ability score increases! So I could put the 5th one in Constitution and give him Divine Fast Healing. I don't see any chance in the 3.5 update pdf for Deities and Demigods to Divine Fast Healing, so the SDA would give him fast healing 25. Heh. I just assign ability scores for my gods. I don't operate off a given pool or so. Good that you could tweak it so it worked out for you though. Here's a question...do you see Herc as the type to flash-heal his wounds? I improved his damage reduction from typical demigods, but I didn't think he merited the fast healing quality. It is certainly beneficial to him, no doubt. But I picture Herc as high DR and high hit points, not flash healing. However, I gave it to my Herc because I ran out of SDAs to take. So I guess it works, eh? I'm also considering Automatic Metamagic and Banestrike (magical beasts). How do you interpret Automatic Metamagic? I don't see any requirement that the deity actually have the metamagic feat to which he or she applies this SDA. Is that how you interpret it? It could be useful to have him able to quicken his spell-like abilities (or his monsterslayer spells) so that he can fight and still use them each round. Considering that he can do miracle as a spell-like ability, that could be very powerful. The deity doesn't have to waste a feat on the Metamagic to take Automatic Metamagic for their spells or SLAs, that is true. However, I see Auto-Quickened SLAs fitting Herc even less than fast healing. In my version I had to drop Mobility, Spring Attack and Whirlwind attack to get in all the feats I wanted, so he can't take Divine Battle Mastery. He can already do 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and I've never seen anyone do more than two really. My version also doesn't have the War domain, so can't take Divine Weapon Mastery. Oh, here is a good one: Irresistible Blows! Hee hee! They already have one that does what I was thinking about making up one to do. This one certainly fits with the story of Hercules stunning the Nemean lion. (By the way, speaking of mistakes in Deities and Demigods, "Nemian" appears to be a spelling error, and "Nemean" appears to be the correct spelling.) Other possibilities include Power of Luck or Wound Enemy. Any thoughts? Thanks. :) Power of Luck doesn't really suit Herc. Inflicting bad or good luck on foes? Wound Enemy is only slightly better, but Herc wasn't known for super bleeding wounds. Irresistible Blows is very ideal, as it allows him to shunt more into his Power Attack, something very Herc-like.
Thorsbjorn 03-01-08, 04:37 PM	I think they 'replaced it' with Awesome Blow, which was nowhere near as good. Or useful for PCs. My design philosophy is this: 'better' = 'more fitting for the character' not 'more mechanically beneficial to the character' A feat like Alertness just doesn't make much sense for Herc. He wasn't particularly known for his sight and hearing. Feats like Legendary Wrestler, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike (if you don't give him a slam attack)....these are a better fit. There is that bludgeoning weapon feat I mentioned earlier that sickens the enemy struck by a Power Attacked hit. These are all much more in line for Herc than Alertness. Heh. I just assign ability scores for my gods. I don't operate off a given pool or so. Good that you could tweak it so it worked out for you though. Here's a question...do you see Herc as the type to flash-heal his wounds? I improved his damage reduction from typical demigods, but didn't give him any fast healing because I didn't think he merited the quality. It is certainly beneficial to him, no doubt. But I picture Herc as high DR and high hit points, not flash healing. The deity doesn't have to waste a feat on the Metamagic to take Automatic Metamagic for their spells or SLAs, that is true. However, I see Auto-Quickened SLAs fitting Herc even less than fast healing. Power of Luck doesn't really suit Herc. Inflicting bad or good luck on foes? Wound Enemy is only slightly better, but Herc wasn't known for super bleeding wounds. Irresistible Blows is very ideal, as it allows him to shunt more into his Power Attack, something very Herc-like. If you scroll back up, you'll see that your version of Hercules did contain Divine Fast Healing. That's where I got the idea! :P I agree though that fast healing and metamagic don't seem very Herculean. :D I could see the luck though. Remember that most of the stories feature Hercules before he died and was made into a god. The version we have here appears to be what we might call the postmortem Hercules. ;) I did give him Legendary Wrestler, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike. Basically I started out with what Deities and Demigods gave him and worked from there. I dropped feats like Mobility, Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack that have always struck me as good for impressing the kiddies but not all that useful to a high-level character with four or five (Divine Rage) iterative attacks and Great Cleave. Even with Alertness, which makes relatively little difference at his level, his Listen and Spot checks are radically lower than his Climb, Jump, Swim and Tumble checks. Really all of the Weapon Focus tree of feats don't fit well with Hercules, as the "club" he used to kill the Nemean lion was just a tree he yanked out of the ground, not some epic-level magic item. He started out with a bow and arrows (which in ancient Greece certainly didn't mean a composite longbow) and when the arrows bounced off he tried a bronze sword, which also bounced off. The he yanked out a tree and hit the lion on the head, stunning it. Then he reached down its throat and suffocated it (or in a second version strangled it, or in a third version broke its jaw). I might be missing some other stories where he showed great skill with a weapon, but it's my understanding that the improvised tree-club served as the basis for worshipers of Hercules wearing club amulets. I might go with Melee Weapon Mastery just to give him the extra attack and damage bonuses, but at his level it's a small difference either way. I'm definitely going with Irresistible Blows though as his sixth SDA. Thank you so much! :) I am going to go ahead and drop Alertness for Melee Weapon Mastery (blunt) as that will give him the bonuses on his unarmed attacks too. Any thoughts on how to make an optimized wrestler? At epic levels obvious I'd want to give such an NPC Legendary Wrestler (which I gave to Hercules too) but beyond and before that, any ideas? I just had an idea to have a lesser but still impressive wrestler for the PCs to wrestle with some actual hope of winning. :D
Kain_Darkwind 03-01-08, 08:07 PM	If you scroll back up, you'll see that your version of Hercules did contain Divine Fast Healing. That's where I got the idea! :P I agree though that fast healing and metamagic don't seem very Herculean. :D I could see the luck though. Remember that most of the stories feature Hercules before he died and was made into a god. The version we have here appears to be what we might call the postmortem Hercules. ;) You must have been typing when I was editing. I looked at my Herc, and didn't see fast healing in the SQ, so I typed what I typed. Then I went back and looked at it, and sure enough, the SDA was listed despite the benefits not being in the stat block. So I went and edited it...but clearly not quick enough for you. I did give him Legendary Wrestler, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike. Basically I started out with what Deities and Demigods gave him and worked from there. I dropped feats like Mobility, Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack that have always struck me as good for impressing the kiddies but not all that useful to a high-level character with four or five (Divine Rage) iterative attacks and Great Cleave. Even with Alertness, which makes relatively little difference at his level, his Listen and Spot checks are radically lower than his Climb, Jump, Swim and Tumble checks. Really all of the Weapon Focus tree of feats don't fit well with Hercules, as the "club" he used to kill the Nemean lion was just a tree he yanked out of the ground, not some epic-level magic item. He started out with a bow and arrows (which in ancient Greece certainly didn't mean a composite longbow) and when the arrows bounced off he tried a bronze sword, which also bounced off. The he yanked out a tree and hit the lion on the head, stunning it. Then he reached down its throat and suffocated it (or in a second version strangled it, or in a third version broke its jaw). I might be missing some other stories where he showed great skill with a weapon, but it's my understanding that the improvised tree-club served as the basis for worshipers of Hercules wearing club amulets. I know, I know. It's a relic of the older builds and with the new feats available, there should be enough to not take the Weapon Focus stuff. I might go with Melee Weapon Mastery just to give him the extra attack and damage bonuses, but at his level it's a small difference either way. I'm definitely going with Irresistible Blows though as his sixth SDA. Thank you so much! :) Good choice. I am going to go ahead and drop Alertness for Melee Weapon Mastery (blunt) as that will give him the bonuses on his unarmed attacks too. Any thoughts on how to make an optimized wrestler? At epic levels obvious I'd want to give such an NPC Legendary Wrestler (which I gave to Hercules too) but beyond and before that, any ideas? I just had an idea to have a lesser but still impressive wrestler for the PCs to wrestle with some actual hope of winning. :D Well....the problem with grappling in DnD is that freedom of movement rapes you. I was posing (and possibly adopted, I can't remember) the idea that Legendary Wrestler would cut the immunity from freedom of movement to a flat +10 (or 15 or 20, I really can't remember at the moment) bonus on grapple checks when grappling someone with the spell active on them. The best way to make a good grappler after that problem is solved is to give them abilities like constrict, feats like Earth's Grasp and such. You probably can't do it building strictly along the class rules, but I design even NPCs in a more free form manner than normal. So I'd just give a wrestler constrict and possibly a marilith's suffocation ability.
Thorsbjorn 03-02-08, 02:15 AM	You must have been typing when I was editing. I looked at my Herc, and didn't see fast healing in the SQ, so I typed what I typed. Then I went back and looked at it, and sure enough, the SDA was listed despite the benefits not being in the stat block. So I went and edited it...but clearly not quick enough for you. Well I quoted the portion of your stat block that had his SDAs when I was trying to reconcile the number of feats, and also so that I could more easily see just the feats and SDAs that you gave him, so the original would still exist in my quotation even if you'd changed your post, although I just checked and still see Divine Healing there too. :) I know, I know. It's a relic of the older builds and with the new feats available, there should be enough to not take the Weapon Focus stuff. I kept all the Weapon Focus feats (indeed added the Greater ones) in part to make my job easier and in part as a recognition that to be comparable to D&D PCs, D&D deities have to have such things. Good choice. Thanks! Of course it was your suggestion. :D Well....the problem with grappling in DnD is that freedom of movement rapes you. I was posing (and possibly adopted, I can't remember) the idea that Legendary Wrestler would cut the immunity from freedom of movement to a flat +10 (or 15 or 20, I really can't remember at the moment) bonus on grapple checks when grappling someone with the spell active on them. The best way to make a good grappler after that problem is solved is to give them abilities like constrict, feats like Earth's Grasp and such. You probably can't do it building strictly along the class rules, but I design even NPCs in a more free form manner than normal. So I'd just give a wrestler constrict and possibly a marilith's suffocation ability. After a discussion of freedom of movement in another thread I changed it in my campaign so that rather than automatically allowing the recipient to win all checks to oppose a grapple, it now grants a +20 bonus on such checks. Then I have a 7th-level version, greater freedom of movement, that grants a +30 bonus, a 9th-level mass freedom of movement that grants to +20 bonus to multiple recipients, and a 9th-level superior freedom of movement that grants a +40 bonus. The spells also now automatically negate magic that impedes movement that's of equal or lower level; for higher-level magic the caster of the version of freedom of movement must make an successful caster-level check against a DC of 11 + caster level of the creator of the impeding magic.
Kain_Darkwind 03-02-08, 06:18 AM	Well I quoted the portion of your stat block that had his SDAs when I was trying to reconcile the number of feats, and also so that I could more easily see just the feats and SDAs that you gave him, so the original would still exist in my quotation even if you'd changed your post, although I just checked and still see Divine Healing there too. :) I meant that I edited my response, not Herc. If you look at my response, it says 'edited by, at etc' My response now explains why I gave it to him rather than stating that I didn't. You can tell, because your quote of my response doesn't say the same thing my actual post did. I kept all the Weapon Focus feats (indeed added the Greater ones) in part to make my job easier and in part as a recognition that to be comparable to D&D PCs, D&D deities have to have such things. The easier I get behind. But I'm fairly certain that a DnD deity does have options that don't lock him into a certain path. We could have done it without the Weapon Focus chain. Or, the weapon focus chain might make much more sense with unarmed strike than greatclub. Thanks! Of course it was your suggestion. :D Pretty sure I picked it as my favorite out of several of your suggestions. After a discussion of freedom of movement in another thread I changed it in my campaign so that rather than automatically allowing the recipient to win all checks to oppose a grapple, it now grants a +20 bonus on such checks. Then I have a 7th-level version, greater freedom of movement, that grants a +30 bonus, a 9th-level mass freedom of movement that grants to +20 bonus to multiple recipients, and a 9th-level superior freedom of movement that grants a +40 bonus. The spells also now automatically negate magic that impedes movement that's of equal or lower level; for higher-level magic the caster of the version of freedom of movement must make an successful caster-level check against a DC of 11 + caster level of the creator of the impeding magic. So you've already found a way to deal with that problem. Good deal. The absolute immunity spells (freedom of movement, mind blank, death ward) always irked me, especially since they can be stuck on a magic item and provide never ending benefits. Which leaves you with just figuring out how to make grappling good. I assume you've looked at the Reaping (Reaving?) Mauler PrC in Complete Warrior? Besides that and Earth's Embrace in the same book, I don't think much focuses on grapples for official core. What you want is a decent throwing move, a decent holding/killing move and a decent holding/submission move. Marilith works great for submission. Earth's Embrace is adequate for killing. For throwing, check out the fling ability I gave my revised Mountain Giant. Mountain Giant Gargantuan Giant Hit Dice: 30d8 + 420 (555 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 80 ft. Armor Class: 35 (+29 natural, -4 size), touch 6, flat-footed 35 Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+57 Attack: Greatclub +38 melee (6d8 + 28) or rock +38 ranged (4d8 + 19) Full Attack: Greatclub +38/+33/+28/+23 melee (6d8 + 28) or 2 slams +37 melee (4d6 + 19) Space/Reach: 20 ft. /20 ft. Special Qualities: Crush, fling, massive sweeping boulder, massive swing, rock throwing, trample Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/piercing or slashing, oversized weapon, rock catching, slow Saves: Fort +32, Ref +10, Will +9 Abilities: Str 49, Dex 10, Con 37, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 17 Skills: Climb +30, Jump +40, Listen +9, Survival +10 Feats: Brutal Throw*, Cleave, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bullrush, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Toughness, Large and In Charge, Power Attack, Power Throw, Weapon Focus (greatclub) Climate/Terrain: Mountains Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1d4 juveniles of 10 HD) Challenge Rating: 16 Treasure: Half standard Alignment: Usually chaotic (any) Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +4 Crush (Ex): 20 ft. x 20 ft., Large or smaller opponents take 4d6 + 28 bludgeoning damage. Reflex DC 38 or be pinned. Fling (Ex): A mountain giant that successfully grapples a Large or smaller foe can fling that foe up to 180 feet away. A flung creature takes 18d6 damage when it hits. (Or falling damage, if it ends up falling more than 180 feet due to where it has been flung) A creature of at least Medium size can be used in place of a rock for the giant's ranged attack. It takes 18d6 + 19 damage and the target takes damage as per a normal rock attack. A flung creature cannot be used for an area effect attack. Massive Sweeping Boulder (Ex): A mountain giant's thrown boulders affect 4 10-foot squares in a line. Massive Swing (Ex): As a standard action, a mountain giant can make a single attack that applies to every creature that he currently threatens. He may make Cleave attempts only once per such attack, regardless of how many foes he drops. Rock Throwing (Ex): Range increment 180 ft. Trample: Move action, Huge or smaller opponent takes 2d8 + 28 bludgeoning damage. Reflex DC 44 for half. Oversized Weapon (Ex): Mountain giants can use Colossal weapons without penalty. Slow (Ex): Spells or spell-like abilities that successfully affect a mountain giant do not take effect for 1 minute. The only exceptions are spells that deal hit point damage or restore it. The giant is newer than Herc by a couple years, so I haven't added any ability of Herc to throw people. Basically, I try to figure how far they would fly if thrown. That translates into 1d6 per 10 feet. Now, Herc might not be throwing people hundreds of feet away. But I bet he could chuck them 30 feet or so pretty easy. That''s only 3d6 damage, but if you wanted, add his Str mod (or 1.5 if he chucked them with two hands) in there as well.
Thorsbjorn 03-03-08, 03:39 PM	I meant that I edited my response, not Herc. If you look at my response, it says 'edited by, at etc' My response now explains why I gave it to him rather than stating that I didn't. You can tell, because your quote of my response doesn't say the same thing my actual post did. The easier I get behind. But I'm fairly certain that a DnD deity does have options that don't lock him into a certain path. We could have done it without the Weapon Focus chain. Or, the weapon focus chain might make much more sense with unarmed strike than greatclub. Pretty sure I picked it as my favorite out of several of your suggestions. So you've already found a way to deal with that problem. Good deal. The absolute immunity spells (freedom of movement, mind blank, death ward) always irked me, especially since they can be stuck on a magic item and provide never ending benefits. Which leaves you with just figuring out how to make grappling good. I assume you've looked at the Reaping (Reaving?) Mauler PrC in Complete Warrior? Besides that and Earth's Embrace in the same book, I don't think much focuses on grapples for official core. What you want is a decent throwing move, a decent holding/killing move and a decent holding/submission move. Marilith works great for submission. Earth's Embrace is adequate for killing. For throwing, check out the fling ability I gave my revised Mountain Giant. Mountain Giant Gargantuan Giant Hit Dice: 30d8 + 420 (555 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 80 ft. Armor Class: 35 (+29 natural, -4 size), touch 6, flat-footed 35 Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+57 Attack: Greatclub +38 melee (6d8 + 28) or rock +38 ranged (4d8 + 19) Full Attack: Greatclub +38/+33/+28/+23 melee (6d8 + 28) or 2 slams +37 melee (4d6 + 19) Space/Reach: 20 ft. /20 ft. Special Qualities: Crush, fling, massive sweeping boulder, massive swing, rock throwing, trample Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/piercing or slashing, oversized weapon, rock catching, slow Saves: Fort +32, Ref +10, Will +9 Abilities: Str 49, Dex 10, Con 37, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 17 Skills: Climb +30, Jump +40, Listen +9, Survival +10 Feats: Brutal Throw*, Cleave, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bullrush, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Toughness, Large and In Charge, Power Attack, Power Throw, Weapon Focus (greatclub) Climate/Terrain: Mountains Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1d4 juveniles of 10 HD) Challenge Rating: 16 Treasure: Half standard Alignment: Usually chaotic (any) Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +4 Crush (Ex): 20 ft. x 20 ft., Large or smaller opponents take 4d6 + 28 bludgeoning damage. Reflex DC 38 or be pinned. Fling (Ex): A mountain giant that successfully grapples a Large or smaller foe can fling that foe up to 180 feet away. A flung creature takes 18d6 damage when it hits. (Or falling damage, if it ends up falling more than 180 feet due to where it has been flung) A creature of at least Medium size can be used in place of a rock for the giant's ranged attack. It takes 18d6 + 19 damage and the target takes damage as per a normal rock attack. A flung creature cannot be used for an area effect attack. Massive Sweeping Boulder (Ex): A mountain giant's thrown boulders affect 4 10-foot squares in a line. Massive Swing (Ex): As a standard action, a mountain giant can make a single attack that applies to every creature that he currently threatens. He may make Cleave attempts only once per such attack, regardless of how many foes he drops. Rock Throwing (Ex): Range increment 180 ft. Trample: Move action, Huge or smaller opponent takes 2d8 + 28 bludgeoning damage. Reflex DC 44 for half. Oversized Weapon (Ex): Mountain giants can use Colossal weapons without penalty. Slow (Ex): Spells or spell-like abilities that successfully affect a mountain giant do not take effect for 1 minute. The only exceptions are spells that deal hit point damage or restore it. The giant is newer than Herc by a couple years, so I haven't added any ability of Herc to throw people. Basically, I try to figure how far they would fly if thrown. That translates into 1d6 per 10 feet. Now, Herc might not be throwing people hundreds of feet away. But I bet he could chuck them 30 feet or so pretty easy. That''s only 3d6 damage, but if you wanted, add his Str mod (or 1.5 if he chucked them with two hands) in there as well. I didn't mean that deities in D&D have to have specifically the Weapon Focus tree of feats, but rather that deities have to have such things. Hercules was a great warrior, so you have to give him things that make a great warrior in D&D, like that feat tree, a magic weapon, etc. D&D non-deities commonly have powerful spells, including healing spells, D&D deities have to have these things too. Not every deity needs every spell, but the deities as a whole have to have them because mortals have them commonly. That's why, for instance, I don't dump Hercule's spell-like abilities and so forth. You're right, I did mention Irresistible Blows. I'd forgotten about it when I was looking for an SDA to allow him to stun, in part because the stun is a secondary effect of that SDA. (The primary affect allows the deity to ignore armor and natural armor.) I might add, too, that Irresistible Blows does require part of the Weapon Focus feat tree, although I suppose one could make up a variant that didn't, or just simply skip systematizing the deities and making all their abilities (or most of their abilities) ah hoc like TSR did in the original AD&D Deities and Demigods. For the wrestler I was just looking for someone who could grapple and pin quickly, as in Greco-Roman wrestling. I quickly threw together a 30th level barbarian with the Weapon Focus tree in grapple. I like your mountain giant. I don't know how it compares to the official one. I think most such large creatures should have trample attacks, and I like the boulder attack affecting a line rather than just one target. I might use that with giants generally. What is the notion behind its "slow" special ability?
Kain_Darkwind 03-03-08, 04:12 PM	I didn't mean that deities in D&D have to have specifically the Weapon Focus tree of feats, but rather that deities have to have such things. Hercules was a great warrior, so you have to give him things that make a great warrior in D&D, like that feat tree, a magic weapon, etc. D&D non-deities commonly have powerful spells, including healing spells, D&D deities have to have these things too. Not every deity needs every spell, but the deities as a whole have to have them because mortals have them commonly. That's why, for instance, I don't dump Hercule's spell-like abilities and so forth. I'm with ya. My Herc has SLAs too. I don't think a great fighter must have those feats though...although at the time that (DDg) Herc was written up, there were certainly less feats to pick from. I wonder...would it make sense to replace Herc's SLAs with maneuvers from Tome of Battle? I like your mountain giant. I don't know how it compares to the official one. I think most such large creatures should have trample attacks, and I like the boulder attack affecting a line rather than just one target. I might use that with giants generally. The area effects of both boulders and melee attacks were drawn from the War Hulk PrC from the Miniature's Handbook. My giant has a lower CR than the official mountain giant, but is actually a more difficult fight than the CR 26 official version. In effect, mine is actually a CR 16 fight, while the official version is a prime example of poor 3.0 mechanics with regards to CR. What is the notion behind its "slow" special ability? The biggest flaw in the MM2's mountain giant was that its poor Will save meant that it was vulnerable to any Will save based ability. Like charm monster. But it was supposedly a CR 26? No, that's just wrong. So the issue here was, how can I make the giant threatening at a high CR, but still retain its creature concept of stupidity and such? I remember reading something a while ago about large animals (I believe lions, bears and elephants were mentioned) that would keep moving (and killing) after they had suffered fatal wounds. Effectively, they'd be dead, but they wouldn't know it yet. I carried that concept into the Mountain Giant. Even if you nail it with a successful death or charm effect, the massive giant doesn't suffer for 10 more rounds. Which means the spell still works, but it isn't a fight ender. 10 rounds after failing against charm monster, he becomes docile (although he might not, if you have been attacking him), 10 rounds after failing against finger of death he drops dead. But you still had to encounter him for a full minute of combat.
Thorsbjorn 03-03-08, 05:04 PM	I'm with ya. My Herc has SLAs too. I don't think a great fighter must have those feats though...although at the time that (DDg) Herc was written up, there were certainly less feats to pick from. I wonder...would it make sense to replace Herc's SLAs with maneuvers from Tome of Battle? The area effects of both boulders and melee attacks were drawn from the War Hulk PrC from the Miniature's Handbook. My giant has a lower CR than the official mountain giant, but is actually a more difficult fight than the CR 26 official version. In effect, mine is actually a CR 16 fight, while the official version is a prime example of poor 3.0 mechanics with regards to CR. The biggest flaw in the MM2's mountain giant was that its poor Will save meant that it was vulnerable to any Will save based ability. Like charm monster. But it was supposedly a CR 26? No, that's just wrong. So the issue here was, how can I make the giant threatening at a high CR, but still retain its creature concept of stupidity and such? I remember reading something a while ago about large animals (I believe lions, bears and elephants were mentioned) that would keep moving (and killing) after they had suffered fatal wounds. Effectively, they'd be dead, but they wouldn't know it yet. I carried that concept into the Mountain Giant. Even if you nail it with a successful death or charm effect, the massive giant doesn't suffer for 10 more rounds. Which means the spell still works, but it isn't a fight ender. 10 rounds after failing against charm monster, he becomes docile (although he might not, if you have been attacking him), 10 rounds after failing against finger of death he drops dead. But you still had to encounter him for a full minute of combat. When I get a chance I'll have to pull out the Miniatures Handbook and take another look at the war hulk. I see what you mean about the mountain giant's vulnerability to effects with Will saves. I'm familiar with the concept of delayed reactions in the human body under certain circumstances. During the Filipino Insurrection, Filipino rebels would get hopped up on opium and come charging out of the brush waving a machete like a frenzied berserker. The US Army soldiers would shoot with a .38 and by the time the rebel knew he was dead he had already chopped up the soldier. That's why the US Army chose the Colt .45 as the standard sidearm in 1911--the .45 had the power not to just kill the rebel but stop him in his tracks despite the opium. I'm on sure if they physicality really translates into slow response to mind-affecting effects, but I think one way to deal with the weak will save would be to follow the D&D treatment of animals, giving a low Intelligence score but high Wisdom score. Your special ability though takes a very creative look at solving the problem. The name sounds odd though, especially as it's also the name of a spell. I wonder if something like "delayed reaction" or "delayed magic" might sound a little more suggestive. I agree though that not all creatures of the same CR take as much effort to defeat. CR though at least attempts to balance creatures rather than just have any creature of the same hit dice worth the same amount of experience no matter how strong or weak, as the earlier versions of the game did.
Kain_Darkwind 03-03-08, 06:44 PM	I see what you mean about the mountain giant's vulnerability to effects with Will saves. I'm familiar with the concept of delayed reactions in the human body under certain circumstances. During the Filipino Insurrection, Filipino rebels would get hopped up on opium and come charging out of the brush waving a machete like a frenzied berserker. The US Army soldiers would shoot with a .38 and by the time the rebel knew he was dead he had already chopped up the soldier. That's why the US Army chose the Colt .45 as the standard sidearm in 1911--the .45 had the power not to just kill the rebel but stop him in his tracks despite the opium. I'm on sure if they physicality really translates into slow response to mind-affecting effects, but I think one way to deal with the weak will save would be to follow the D&D treatment of animals, giving a low Intelligence score but high Wisdom score. Your special ability though takes a very creative look at solving the problem. The name sounds odd though, especially as it's also the name of a spell. I wonder if something like "delayed reaction" or "delayed magic" might sound a little more suggestive. Delayed reaction sounds about right. After all, supernatural effects that produce such should be subject to this as well. I agree though that not all creatures of the same CR take as much effort to defeat. CR though at least attempts to balance creatures rather than just have any creature of the same hit dice worth the same amount of experience no matter how strong or weak, as the earlier versions of the game did. True, there is a range for CR to be accurate. But a CR 26 that is going to fail the first charm monster it gets hit with is a false CR. Even if the monster can throw the moon at its foes. With this ability, one hit kills via Will saves are reduced to the stopping power of a .38 revolver. ;)
Thorsbjorn 03-10-08, 01:12 AM	Delayed reaction sounds about right. After all, supernatural effects that produce such should be subject to this as well. True, there is a range for CR to be accurate. But a CR 26 that is going to fail the first charm monster it gets hit with is a false CR. Even if the monster can throw the moon at its foes. With this ability, one hit kills via Will saves are reduced to the stopping power of a .38 revolver. ;) Oops. I sort of thought I'd already replied. The death of Gary Gygax hit me hard as I've known him for the past four years and heard from him just six days before he died. He's survived a stroke and heart attack about two years ago and I didn't expect him to suddenly die. He meant a lot to me. So this past Saturday the party arrived at their destination and found Heracles doing public exhibition wrestling matches to raise money for charity. The party's archer, sorcerer, wizard and dragon cohort (in the form of a young girl) rented a box to watch. The wizard placed bets on the other four party members. The four party members--expert treasure hunter (rogue/dungeon delver), barbarian/cleric/thunder priest of Thor, half-celestial monk of Athena, and half-celestial barbarian/cleric/lightning warrior--tried wrestling him, and he pinned each on in turn in about three rounds. He let them use magic and everything. Then he wrestled three of the four all at once, and they managed to go 5 rounds before he pinned them. Twice the half-celestial barbarian managed to break the pin before the count of ten because Heracles has to take a -40 on his grapple check in order to treat himself as not grappling the first two opponents he had pinned. It was a blast! Next time each of the party's decent wrestlers is going to go one-on-one with the city's wrestling champion, a 30th-level barbarian. They actually have a chance to defeat him. Not only might they resist being pinned for a count of ten, but some of them could actually pin the champion. This should be fun too. :)