Is It As Hard As It Looks...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is It As Hard As It Looks...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TacoClone
05-11-07, 06:34 PM Alright, so, I would like to make my own planes for my campaign world, but it looks rather complicated and hard to do it correctly. So basically, is it really as hard as I think it is to make my own custom planes, dropping all of them that are in the DMG, or what?

And, either way, does anyone have any tips or advice about how to go about making your own planes?
sciborg2
05-11-07, 06:45 PM It's more a question of what you want, and what the planes will mean in your game. Why don't you tell us about your setting?

ps. Do you have the MoTP?
TacoClone
05-11-07, 07:23 PM Unfortunately, I don't have th MotP, though I do have th Planar Handbook.

My campaign (which has yet to get an official name) is one where magic is rather influence, and where there are zones of strong magic power where creature grow stronger and/or warped into magical beasts.

The world of the material plane was created by the splashing of left over magic by two quarreling gods. The water and the stone of the world itself holds magic power, and is how potions are created, as well as a new magic item (or type of magic item) that is specific to the campaign. Those would be Sonlara Shards, Stones, Crystals, and Gems. Each with various levels of power and effects. The lowest holds a single spells, usable once per day, with enough energy to last ten uses. The stones raise the DC of one school of magic by one, the crystals raise the caster level of one school of magi by one, and the gems are almost entities in and of themselves, sort of like living spells, but are used to power the growing technologies that the people are starting to create (including a small number of airships, subs, and various other things).

The gods themselves are divided, but not by alignment, but rather generation. The old gods stand in fear of a race created by one of them, which, unexpectedly, grew to be powerful enough to challenge them. This led to a genocide of most of the race, which is known as the Immortals. Now there's about 13 gods, one of which is dead and has become a vestige (and plots to return to power).

Hm...is that good enough?
Khael
05-11-07, 08:25 PM Not really helpful as it stands, since it tells us of a homebrew rule, not the nature of the world, but: The generic planes are split into: The elemental, The lower/upper alignment planes, The outlands, and the ethereal, astral, shadow, negative energy, positive energy planes and so forth, right?

Now how does your world treat those?

Do you need a plane for each element, or can ice, water and steam all be the plane of water (so no quati-elemental planes).
Do you need a positive/negative plane? If not where do undead come from?

Do fiends/celestials need a plane for each of their kins, or is there simply heaven and hell, and the sole kindred to inhabit it (So instead of a CE demon, you have a E fiend, who maybe is particularly violent.)

Do you need an astral plane AND ethereal plane? How will this affect psionics, ghosts, etc.?

In other words, work out exactly what you need each plane for, and remove dead weigh, so maybe you only need four elemental planes, an evil plane, a good plane, and a neutral co-existing spirit plane (linked to the material, and taking plane of the astral and ethereal). Do you need more? less?

Or maybe of course you just have good/evil, the neutral world, and the material plane, with elemental mgics being conjured by will alone...
TacoClone
05-11-07, 08:41 PM Well, originally, I had thought of having four elemental planes (these would be closest to the material plane), then four alignment planes (law, chaos, good, evil) and each were connected to allow areas of CG, LE, etc., and everything was connected by the Void, which wouldn't exactly be a plane, but more of the glue that held the universe together, keeping everything in balance.

However, I'm not sure I like that, especially the four and four planes, because they seem so unoriginal.
Doom_Linnorm
05-12-07, 06:36 AM I'd say tinker until you feel its right.
I myself have added an extra lower plane and moved Elysium down as a part of Hades rather then a plane on itself.
(After all, in Greek mythology Elysium IS part of Hades.)
Then I created another 6 Elemental planes. (Because I use 10 different elements rather then the traditional 4.)

Just tinker along, don't worry to much about it, you can figure out how it works after you slam together a plan.
Millennium
05-12-07, 09:57 AM Well, originally, I had thought of having four elemental planes (these would be closest to the material plane), then four alignment planes (law, chaos, good, evil) and each were connected to allow areas of CG, LE, etc., and everything was connected by the Void, which wouldn't exactly be a plane, but more of the glue that held the universe together, keeping everything in balance.
You could lift the four elemental planes straight from core D&D if you wanted. These are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/planes.htm). They're not homebrew, but they'd mean a lot less work for you, and you could still tweak them to your taste. They'd also serve as good examples of how the basic planar mechanics work.

Although I know that you don't want the Void to be a plane of its own, you might want to consider basing it mechanically on one of the three transitive planes: the Ethereal, the Astral, or the Shadow. This would simplify things with houseruling your spells, since one big group could simply be restated to use the Void instead of its core plane and then ported straight across. All three of the Transitive Planes are based on a theme of connecting things together, so any one could work: it depends on how you want the flavor of the Void (and the planes it connects) to work.

The Outer Planes aren't in the SRD, so you'll have to come up with your own alignment-based planes.
sciborg2
05-12-07, 12:16 PM Check out sites dealing with cosmologies of different faiths - that should give some inpsiration as well:

Norse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology

Variation on Vedic

http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/ShuteiMandala/vedic.html

Celtic

http://www.sacredfire.net/cosmology.html
Phantom Llama
05-12-07, 12:59 PM However, I'm not sure I like that, especially the four and four planes, because they seem so unoriginal.
You could try basing the planes on something else. The schools of magic could be appropriate for your world, to knock something together quickly:

Abjuration: The place of protection and protectors. Many Good outsiders are found here, along with other more Dispater-like personalities. Earth elementals come from here.

Conjuration: The source of creation and new souls. Positive dominant, and morphic like Limbo/the Ethereal.

Divination: You know the 'powers of other planes' that many divination spells contact? Here they are, tending their libraries and recording the history of the universe.

Enchantment: Here be devils, on their quest to control everything and everyone. Also their formian rivals.

Evocation: A tumultuous plane, with many fire/cold/electricity etc. dominant areas. Fire and air elementals would come from here, and particularly violent outsiders like some demons and slaad. Wars and storms abound.

Illusion: Sensation. Artistically-inclined outsiders like eladrin, lillends and Graz'zt can be found here.

Necromancy: The destination of dead souls. Negative dominant. If you subscribe to the idea that cure and resurrection spells should be of the necromancy school, it could also be the source of new souls instead of Conjuration, and have positive-dominant areas.

Transmutation: Nature. The natural world is a great engine of change, turning soil into plants into herbivores into carnivores into corpses into soil into... etc. It is also associated with water and water elementals. Highly morphic.

In general for cosmology-building, try and identify the major themes of the world, and either design the planes around them (to lend Cosmic Import to said themes) or make them deliberately perpendicular (for an Uncaring Cosmos feel).
Witch
05-12-07, 01:00 PM PL, those ideas sound awesome. I might use them sometime later.
TacoClone
05-12-07, 10:11 PM Thanks everyone for the advice. I will probably make one plane where the old gods were, then some various other planes, possibly ones for magic and the like, and then a newly created one for the Immortals.

I'll probably stick with the four elemental planes though, and all the plane of the old gods to house most of the demons, devils, and celestials, etc., and I'll still have the Void, which will flow with negative and positive energy.

I can't decide if I want to have an astral plane (or one in place of it) or just have all the planes overlap at certain points so that you don't need one.

Any thoughts?
ElberethSilverleaf
05-13-07, 04:33 AM I liked your ideas on the elemental planes , as I've always used them in my campaigns.
I also use the ethereal, astral and shadow as they have practical uses. However the other planes such as the ones a soul/spirit goes to when you die, (Arvandor, Abyss etc) I deliberately keep vague as the veil beyond death is the ultimate mystery.
My Greyhawk & FRealms campaigns diverge from canon in that deities almost NEVER take direct actions in the affairs of mortals.
Resurrected characters may only have vague memories of their stay in the afterlife, and usually their last memory is their own death. Resurrection is rare and most priests simply will not perform the miracle unless there is a truly overriding reason. (the fate of thousands or a nation winning a war)
Naderion
05-13-07, 06:57 AM I think building a cosmology isn't really that hard, I think it's even very much fun.

The Manual of the Planes is a very good book in opinion, but I think it works best when you read it completely from front to back to gain an understanding how all the parts work and espacially how they work together. This might be a bit too great effort, depending on how much work you want to put into this.

The Inner/Outer Plane System is not the only and there are a lot of other ways to arrange the planes. The most important thing for the beginning is, what functions you want the planes to cover.
You could decide not to have an etheral plane (I did that) or a Shadow Plane. They aren't really that integral to the game.
You could have no elemental planes, because all elements are found on the material plane, which also is THE elemental plane, or you could have no positive and negative energy plane (that I did too).
You don't even need an Astral plane and all planes are paralel-dimensions, or there's something else between them, as you did.
Outer planes are also optional, though you need something else where the gods and outsiders are when there are no outer planes, and think what happens to the souls of the dead then. For example, they might stay on the material plane as the spirits of the ancients.
If you have outer planes, their number and appearance can be (literarily) infinite. You could use some kind of cosmic master plan with 17 or 8 outer planes arranged to the alignments or something else, or they could be without any aparent system at all.

In my setting, outsiders play a minor role, so I have just 8 outer planes and not 17, but fey-creatures, spirits and elementals become very important, so there are 3 "material" planes (material, shadow, and fey) at the center of the inner planes, where the four elemental planes meet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TacoClone 05-11-07, 06:34 PM	Alright, so, I would like to make my own planes for my campaign world, but it looks rather complicated and hard to do it correctly. So basically, is it really as hard as I think it is to make my own custom planes, dropping all of them that are in the DMG, or what? And, either way, does anyone have any tips or advice about how to go about making your own planes?
sciborg2 05-11-07, 06:45 PM	It's more a question of what you want, and what the planes will mean in your game. Why don't you tell us about your setting? ps. Do you have the MoTP?
TacoClone 05-11-07, 07:23 PM	Unfortunately, I don't have th MotP, though I do have th Planar Handbook. My campaign (which has yet to get an official name) is one where magic is rather influence, and where there are zones of strong magic power where creature grow stronger and/or warped into magical beasts. The world of the material plane was created by the splashing of left over magic by two quarreling gods. The water and the stone of the world itself holds magic power, and is how potions are created, as well as a new magic item (or type of magic item) that is specific to the campaign. Those would be Sonlara Shards, Stones, Crystals, and Gems. Each with various levels of power and effects. The lowest holds a single spells, usable once per day, with enough energy to last ten uses. The stones raise the DC of one school of magic by one, the crystals raise the caster level of one school of magi by one, and the gems are almost entities in and of themselves, sort of like living spells, but are used to power the growing technologies that the people are starting to create (including a small number of airships, subs, and various other things). The gods themselves are divided, but not by alignment, but rather generation. The old gods stand in fear of a race created by one of them, which, unexpectedly, grew to be powerful enough to challenge them. This led to a genocide of most of the race, which is known as the Immortals. Now there's about 13 gods, one of which is dead and has become a vestige (and plots to return to power). Hm...is that good enough?
Khael 05-11-07, 08:25 PM	Not really helpful as it stands, since it tells us of a homebrew rule, not the nature of the world, but: The generic planes are split into: The elemental, The lower/upper alignment planes, The outlands, and the ethereal, astral, shadow, negative energy, positive energy planes and so forth, right? Now how does your world treat those? Do you need a plane for each element, or can ice, water and steam all be the plane of water (so no quati-elemental planes). Do you need a positive/negative plane? If not where do undead come from? Do fiends/celestials need a plane for each of their kins, or is there simply heaven and hell, and the sole kindred to inhabit it (So instead of a CE demon, you have a E fiend, who maybe is particularly violent.) Do you need an astral plane AND ethereal plane? How will this affect psionics, ghosts, etc.? In other words, work out exactly what you need each plane for, and remove dead weigh, so maybe you only need four elemental planes, an evil plane, a good plane, and a neutral co-existing spirit plane (linked to the material, and taking plane of the astral and ethereal). Do you need more? less? Or maybe of course you just have good/evil, the neutral world, and the material plane, with elemental mgics being conjured by will alone...
TacoClone 05-11-07, 08:41 PM	Well, originally, I had thought of having four elemental planes (these would be closest to the material plane), then four alignment planes (law, chaos, good, evil) and each were connected to allow areas of CG, LE, etc., and everything was connected by the Void, which wouldn't exactly be a plane, but more of the glue that held the universe together, keeping everything in balance. However, I'm not sure I like that, especially the four and four planes, because they seem so unoriginal.
Doom_Linnorm 05-12-07, 06:36 AM	I'd say tinker until you feel its right. I myself have added an extra lower plane and moved Elysium down as a part of Hades rather then a plane on itself. (After all, in Greek mythology Elysium IS part of Hades.) Then I created another 6 Elemental planes. (Because I use 10 different elements rather then the traditional 4.) Just tinker along, don't worry to much about it, you can figure out how it works after you slam together a plan.
Millennium 05-12-07, 09:57 AM	Well, originally, I had thought of having four elemental planes (these would be closest to the material plane), then four alignment planes (law, chaos, good, evil) and each were connected to allow areas of CG, LE, etc., and everything was connected by the Void, which wouldn't exactly be a plane, but more of the glue that held the universe together, keeping everything in balance. You could lift the four elemental planes straight from core D&D if you wanted. These are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/planes.htm). They're not homebrew, but they'd mean a lot less work for you, and you could still tweak them to your taste. They'd also serve as good examples of how the basic planar mechanics work. Although I know that you don't want the Void to be a plane of its own, you might want to consider basing it mechanically on one of the three transitive planes: the Ethereal, the Astral, or the Shadow. This would simplify things with houseruling your spells, since one big group could simply be restated to use the Void instead of its core plane and then ported straight across. All three of the Transitive Planes are based on a theme of connecting things together, so any one could work: it depends on how you want the flavor of the Void (and the planes it connects) to work. The Outer Planes aren't in the SRD, so you'll have to come up with your own alignment-based planes.
sciborg2 05-12-07, 12:16 PM	Check out sites dealing with cosmologies of different faiths - that should give some inpsiration as well: Norse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology Variation on Vedic http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/ShuteiMandala/vedic.html Celtic http://www.sacredfire.net/cosmology.html
Phantom Llama 05-12-07, 12:59 PM	However, I'm not sure I like that, especially the four and four planes, because they seem so unoriginal. You could try basing the planes on something else. The schools of magic could be appropriate for your world, to knock something together quickly: Abjuration: The place of protection and protectors. Many Good outsiders are found here, along with other more Dispater-like personalities. Earth elementals come from here. Conjuration: The source of creation and new souls. Positive dominant, and morphic like Limbo/the Ethereal. Divination: You know the 'powers of other planes' that many divination spells contact? Here they are, tending their libraries and recording the history of the universe. Enchantment: Here be devils, on their quest to control everything and everyone. Also their formian rivals. Evocation: A tumultuous plane, with many fire/cold/electricity etc. dominant areas. Fire and air elementals would come from here, and particularly violent outsiders like some demons and slaad. Wars and storms abound. Illusion: Sensation. Artistically-inclined outsiders like eladrin, lillends and Graz'zt can be found here. Necromancy: The destination of dead souls. Negative dominant. If you subscribe to the idea that cure and resurrection spells should be of the necromancy school, it could also be the source of new souls instead of Conjuration, and have positive-dominant areas. Transmutation: Nature. The natural world is a great engine of change, turning soil into plants into herbivores into carnivores into corpses into soil into... etc. It is also associated with water and water elementals. Highly morphic. In general for cosmology-building, try and identify the major themes of the world, and either design the planes around them (to lend Cosmic Import to said themes) or make them deliberately perpendicular (for an Uncaring Cosmos feel).
Witch 05-12-07, 01:00 PM	PL, those ideas sound awesome. I might use them sometime later.
TacoClone 05-12-07, 10:11 PM	Thanks everyone for the advice. I will probably make one plane where the old gods were, then some various other planes, possibly ones for magic and the like, and then a newly created one for the Immortals. I'll probably stick with the four elemental planes though, and all the plane of the old gods to house most of the demons, devils, and celestials, etc., and I'll still have the Void, which will flow with negative and positive energy. I can't decide if I want to have an astral plane (or one in place of it) or just have all the planes overlap at certain points so that you don't need one. Any thoughts?
ElberethSilverleaf 05-13-07, 04:33 AM	I liked your ideas on the elemental planes , as I've always used them in my campaigns. I also use the ethereal, astral and shadow as they have practical uses. However the other planes such as the ones a soul/spirit goes to when you die, (Arvandor, Abyss etc) I deliberately keep vague as the veil beyond death is the ultimate mystery. My Greyhawk & FRealms campaigns diverge from canon in that deities almost NEVER take direct actions in the affairs of mortals. Resurrected characters may only have vague memories of their stay in the afterlife, and usually their last memory is their own death. Resurrection is rare and most priests simply will not perform the miracle unless there is a truly overriding reason. (the fate of thousands or a nation winning a war)
Naderion 05-13-07, 06:57 AM	I think building a cosmology isn't really that hard, I think it's even very much fun. The Manual of the Planes is a very good book in opinion, but I think it works best when you read it completely from front to back to gain an understanding how all the parts work and espacially how they work together. This might be a bit too great effort, depending on how much work you want to put into this. The Inner/Outer Plane System is not the only and there are a lot of other ways to arrange the planes. The most important thing for the beginning is, what functions you want the planes to cover. You could decide not to have an etheral plane (I did that) or a Shadow Plane. They aren't really that integral to the game. You could have no elemental planes, because all elements are found on the material plane, which also is THE elemental plane, or you could have no positive and negative energy plane (that I did too). You don't even need an Astral plane and all planes are paralel-dimensions, or there's something else between them, as you did. Outer planes are also optional, though you need something else where the gods and outsiders are when there are no outer planes, and think what happens to the souls of the dead then. For example, they might stay on the material plane as the spirits of the ancients. If you have outer planes, their number and appearance can be (literarily) infinite. You could use some kind of cosmic master plan with 17 or 8 outer planes arranged to the alignments or something else, or they could be without any aparent system at all. In my setting, outsiders play a minor role, so I have just 8 outer planes and not 17, but fey-creatures, spirits and elementals become very important, so there are 3 "material" planes (material, shadow, and fey) at the center of the inner planes, where the four elemental planes meet.