Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 07-01-07, 04:13 PM	Like most other draconic deities, she is the offspring of the dragon creator deity Io. She is the eternal rival of her brother Bahamut, the ruler of the good metallic dragons. It is also hinted that her overt hatred toward Bahamut has developed, over a vast period of time, into a twisted lust for her brother as well. She dwells in Avernus, the first layer of the Outer Plane of Baator (also known as the Nine Hells). The first edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons named her as the ruler of Avernus; later editions reserved the rulership of the layers of Baator for powerful baatezu (devils). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29 Can someone please tell me a bit more about this? For example, is this true? If so, can someone please tell me in which books I can find these "hints"? I know incestuous relationships/marriages were a common theme in ancient religions' pantheons, since there were usually a very limited number of gods, so they had no choice but to mate with each other, though it had no bad effects on their children due to them being gods. I always thought this would also apply to D&D cosmology, since the number of gods are limited (especially if they only wed within their race), but I always figured Wizards and D&D wouldn't touch on such things since the game is being sold to kids and teenagers. Also, if it is true is there any chance that Wizards will expand on this at a later time? It would definitely make for some interesting reading and adventure plots to have something happen between the two most powerful dragon gods, after they and their dragon followers have been waring for countless centuries.
TurnCloak_Kobold 07-01-07, 04:17 PM	hmmm, i trust very little from wikipedia...although the orriginal purpose for bahamut and tiamat was to mate and make the ultimate dragon. in the end tiamat was to deviouse and killed off Io's first dragon, intent on blaiming it on her brother to win Io's favor. all this can be found in the Draconomicon, though i personally believe that a relashionship between the two can never exist, in the end she may lust for him, but he would hold himself aloft, thats just how bahamut works. the draconomicon has the story, but it dosent elude to any relashionship between the two...
Thegans 07-01-07, 04:30 PM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29 Can someone please tell me a bit more about this? For example, is this true? If so, can someone please tell me in which books I can find these "hints"? I know incestuous relationships/marriages were a common theme in ancient religions' pantheons, since there were usually a very limited number of gods, so they had no choice but to mate with each other, though it had no bad effects on their children due to them being gods. I always thought this would also apply to D&D cosmology, since the number of gods are limited (especially if they only wed within their race), but I always figured Wizards and D&D wouldn't touch on such things since the game is being sold to kids and teenagers. Also, if it is true is there any chance that Wizards will expand on this at a later time? It would definitely make for some interesting reading and adventure plots to have something happen between the two most powerful dragon gods, after they and their dragon followers have been waring for countless centuries. hmmm, i trust very little from wikipedia...although the orriginal purpose for bahamut and tiamat was to mate and make the ultimate dragon. in the end tiamat was to deviouse and killed off Io's first dragon, intent on blaiming it on her brother to win Io's favor. all this can be found in the Draconomicon, though i personally believe that a relashionship between the two can never exist, in the end she may lust for him, but he would hold himself aloft, thats just how bahamut works. the draconomicon has the story, but it dosent elude to any relashionship between the two... They also mention it in Races of the Dragon. Although I haven't seen anything mentioning Tiamat becoming attracted to Bahamut but if she did then Io probably planned it.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-01-07, 07:07 PM	I'm guessing it's just some random shipper vandalizing the article.
Silverthumb128 07-02-07, 10:25 AM	I know incestuous relationships/marriages were a common theme in ancient religions' pantheons, since there were usually a very limited number of gods, so they had no choice but to mate with each other, though it had no bad effects on their children due to them being gods. Also, given that they're dragons, they probably wouldn't have the same moral standings that humans do.
Sim_antix 07-02-07, 03:01 PM	Also, given that they're dragons, they probably wouldn't have the same moral standings that humans do. It is more than just a moral issue but since they are Gods they wouldn't have the risk of defects in an offspring that mortal creatures would.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-02-07, 03:12 PM	If Tiamat does lust for him, it's not because of anything like "love", it's because she wants to utterly own him in every way possible, and that includes forcing her diabolic self upon him. She's an evil goddess, for crying out loud. She doesn't get little hearts for eyes, even for a god with as huge a charisma as Bahamut.
Witch 07-02-07, 03:12 PM	It is more than just a moral issue but since they are Gods they wouldn't have the risk of defects in an offspring that mortal creatures would. It's not necessarily a moral issue at all, if the risk of defects isn't present. The only reason why it could be considered immoral in all cultures is precisely because of those defects that a child would suffer - ancient cultures who weren't that aware of those repercussions happily practiced inbreeding. Especially nobility.
Witch 07-02-07, 03:14 PM	If Tiamat does lust for him, it's not because of anything like "love", it's because she wants to utterly own him in every way possible, and that includes forcing her diabolic self upon him. She's an evil goddess, for crying out loud. She doesn't get little hearts for eyes, even for a god with as huge a charisma as Bahamut. Being evil does not prohibit love. It may be hideous, distorted love - she may only be able to love by harming the other, for example, because that might be the only way she knows how to express emotion, but she should be able to love.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-02-07, 03:23 PM	Being evil does not prohibit love. It may be hideous, distorted love - she may only be able to love by harming the other, for example, because that might be the only way she knows how to express emotion, but she should be able to love. My point exactly. The original wiki quote said "twisted lust". So, to answer the thread title, "Does Tiamat love Bahamut?" The answer is most likely, no.
Orodruin 07-02-07, 09:02 PM	So just to clarify the answer for the sake of the OP; this whole "twisted lust" thing was never mentioned in any of the source books and we can chalk it all down to one wikipedia contributor being a tad too creative in his writing?
Novem 07-02-07, 09:24 PM	Though it would make an interesting plot twist if she did.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-02-07, 09:30 PM	So just to clarify the answer for the sake of the OP; this whole "twisted lust" thing was never mentioned in any of the source books and we can chalk it all down to one wikipedia contributor being a tad too creative in his writing? Yep.
celestialkin 07-02-07, 09:47 PM	Thanks for clearing all of this up guys. I am a bit disappointed, though. It would have made for some interesting plot. However, I did find the part about them originally being meant to mate and produce the "ultimate dragon" very interesting. Anyone know what this end-all dragon would have been like? It has got me very intrigued. And would it still be possible to make this super dragon race? If it were created, could it be a form of salvation for the declining dragon kind? This is all fun what-if speculation, of course.
Thegans 07-02-07, 10:05 PM	It is more than just a moral issue but since they are Gods they wouldn't have the risk of defects in an offspring that mortal creatures would. Actually come to think of it are Bahamut and Tiamat really even siblings. Technically Io created them using magic so there was no family line to get screwed up. Thanks for clearing all of this up guys. I am a bit disappointed, though. It would have made for some interesting plot. However, I did find the part about them originally being meant to mate and produce the "ultimate dragon" very interesting. Anyone know what this end-all dragon would have been like? It has got me very intrigued. And would it still be possible to make this super dragon race? If it were created, could it be a form of salvation for the declining dragon kind? This is all fun what-if speculation, of course. Thats would probably work for a plot line but I don't think there will be any official stats for the ultimate dragon. Although I would guess that it would be a true neutral dragon with either a new breath weapon or one that is a combination of several breath weapons.
Schmendrick 07-02-07, 10:14 PM	Thanks for clearing all of this up guys. I am a bit disappointed, though. It would have made for some interesting plot. However, I did find the part about them originally being meant to mate and produce the "ultimate dragon" very interesting. Anyone know what this end-all dragon would have been like? It has got me very intrigued. And would it still be possible to make this super dragon race? If it were created, could it be a form of salvation for the declining dragon kind? This is all fun what-if speculation, of course. Dude, if you're thinking about making "some interesting plot," then do it. You're the DM. It's your world. Run with it.
runestar 07-02-07, 10:31 PM	This should be cross-posted in the mature boards. I am sure the discussion would get a lot more interesting there with all the restrictions removed...:D
celestialkin 07-02-07, 10:55 PM	This should be cross-posted in the mature boards. I am sure the discussion would get a lot more interesting there with all the restrictions removed...:D What are the rules on cross-posting? Would just copying the first post over do? Or should I make a thread with the same title in the mature boards with a link to this thread in the body? Dude, if you're thinking about making "some interesting plot," then do it. You're the DM. It's your world. Run with it. You are probably right. I have been thinking of experimenting with DMing, and this is really motivating me to give it a try. This campaign idea could also be a fun side project for me to work on while I get my feet wet. Thanks for the motivation dude. :)
Shemeska the Marauder 07-02-07, 11:47 PM	Being evil does not prohibit love. It may be hideous, distorted love - Oh yes... "Paradox defines us my love. Paradox defines us very well. We made a curious little thing together didn’t we Helekanalaith? The king and queen of Perdition. Lady and Lord of the Furnace. Lovers with knives at each other's throats, feral in our cold elegance, selfless abominations who would destroy the multiverse for one another yet destroy themselves to extinguish the very notion of altruism. With each and every kiss and whisper, we realized the arrogance and elegant, twisted beauty of our relationship. Each kiss, each coupling was a tick of the clock, counting down the minutes to the betrayal we both accepted as an affirmation of our twisted, beloved ethos of self-destruction. Lie to me, tell me that you do not love me and I will do the same." - Larsdana Ap Neut Absolutely irredeemable villains who love someone, or even fiends who "love" one another, has been a fun little exercise in my campaigns. Both the genuine, the genuine but misguided, and the twisted versions can make for some fun character development.
TurnCloak_Kobold 07-03-07, 12:44 AM	And would it still be possible to make this super dragon race? If it were created, could it be a form of salvation for the declining dragon kind? This is all fun what-if speculation, of course. i would like to think that it would be a shadow dragon crossed with a radiant dragon...you get all the cool powers of light and dark, and it makes a little sense as well, seeing as how they are both representitives of there respective alighnments.
runestar 07-03-07, 01:27 AM	Maybe we will finally be seeing that polka-dotted dragon everyone is talking about...:P
Doom_Linnorm 07-03-07, 03:49 AM	They actually do have a love-hate relationship in the game I run, its good fun to have to clergy absolutely despise each other but still band together for certain common goals. Tiamat though in my setting is currently sealed within the "Dragon's Vault" for her direct interference in the Dark War.
El_Machinae 07-03-07, 07:36 AM	It is more than just a moral issue but since they are Gods they wouldn't have the risk of defects in an offspring that mortal creatures would. Both of them would risk morality defects, I'd think. Bahamut would probably prefer generating a Good offspring, Tiamat ... not so much. The 'mixing' of their moralities would probably be viewed as a 'defect' by both parents.
Zandilar 07-03-07, 08:40 AM	Heya, Thats would probably work for a plot line but I don't think there will be any official stats for the ultimate dragon. Although I would guess that it would be a true neutral dragon with either a new breath weapon or one that is a combination of several breath weapons. Given both Tiamat and Bahamut are Lawful, I think their offspring is more likely to be LN than TN.
Pippa 07-03-07, 08:53 AM	Like other said before me, go with it if you're the DM. Personally I like the idea very much. Should Tiamat's twisted interest in Bahamut lead to offspring, I foresee either: -Some draconic 'Eilistraee', beacon of Good to all chromatic dragons. (Or vice versa: one that would like to see all metallic abandon the cause of Good.) -A champion of balance, seeking to unite Good and Evil (somehow), -Or some sort of doomed outcast, maybe reluctanly doing its mother's biddings this time, and not quite grasping his father's benevolence the other. Could be a tool in Tiamat's hostilities against Bahamut, or maybe a way to bribe him. Could be nice.
Thegans 07-03-07, 08:27 PM	Heya, Given both Tiamat and Bahamut are Lawful, I think their offspring is more likely to be LN than TN. The main reason I guessed true neutral is that Io created them to make the perfect dragon. I figured that a true neutral dragon diety would probably view the perfect dragon as one that is also true neutral. Although he could have two chaotic dragons somewhere else that he is also trying to get to breed but then that just gets too wierd.
XHereticX 07-03-07, 08:48 PM	eww, siblingcest, gross.:yuck: Still, among gods it seems fairly normal. Lust and love are very different things by the way. Lust is just an intense sexual craving for something that seems aesthetically attractive without truly feeling affectionate for it. Love is when one feels truly attracted to something or someone and achieves that level of devotion. Fiends and evil creatures are cetainly more prone to the former, yet evil creatures are very capable of love (for fiends, its one of the first steps towards redemption)
Witch 07-04-07, 06:20 AM	love (for fiends, its one of the first steps towards redemption) No, it's not. Love is not a step towards redemption - it can be just as despicable as other vile act. You can feel affectionate towards another and express that affection in the only way you know of, i.e. by tormenting him/her. This is not a step towards redemption.
vegetalss4 07-04-07, 06:50 AM	The main reason I guessed true neutral is that Io created them to make the perfect dragon. I figured that a true neutral dragon diety would probably view the perfect dragon as one that is also true neutral. Although he could have two chaotic dragons somewhere else that he is also trying to get to breed but then that just gets too wierd. that actuly sounds as a good idea. so Bahamut and Tiamat where never meant to make the perfect dragon the where meant to make one of the parents to this perfect dragon.
malykoth 07-04-07, 08:37 AM	Personally I like the idea very much. Should Tiamat's twisted interest in Bahamut lead to offspring, I foresee either: -Some draconic 'Eilistraee', beacon of Good to all chromatic dragons. (Or vice versa: one that would like to see all metallic abandon the cause of Good.) -A champion of balance, seeking to unite Good and Evil (somehow), -Or some sort of doomed outcast, maybe reluctanly doing its mother's biddings this time, and not quite grasping his father's benevolence the other. Could be a tool in Tiamat's hostilities against Bahamut, or maybe a way to bribe him. Perhaps all three...and more. Dragons do lay clutches of eggs, right? With one good rogering from the Big B, she could certainly have enough platinum DNA to make more than one bebe.
Aleolus 07-05-07, 04:10 PM	Well, I know that a friend of mine has a house variant where Bahamut and Tiamat both have a certain amount of time neither of them can remember, which during said time they came together and produced a child. That child being the Divine Dragon, one of the most powerful deities in the world, with the ability to change his alignment at will.
El_Machinae 07-05-07, 08:13 PM	What a concept! Goedel, Escher, and Bach would be befuddled at such a concept. Why would a creature of a certain alignment want to change its alignment? When you're within an alignment, you consider it to be the ideal system.
XHereticX 07-05-07, 08:51 PM	No, it's not. Love is not a step towards redemption - it can be just as despicable as other vile act. You can feel affectionate towards another and express that affection in the only way you know of, i.e. by tormenting him/her. This is not a step towards redemption. Hmm. give me an example?? As far as I know tormenting and violating are expressions of lust, not love.
Hellsbells 07-05-07, 09:12 PM	Who is the patren dragon diety of the gem dragons and what is it's possition in the dragonfall war? Were's Io been through all this? And am i the only one who feels that given the information from races of the dragon, dragonomnicon, the monster manuals, and dieties and demigods, bahamate should have lost the war a couple of centuries ago?
Nifft 07-05-07, 09:34 PM	In my campaign, she's just using him for sex. Cheers, -- N
Witch 07-06-07, 07:06 AM	Hmm. give me an example?? As far as I know tormenting and violating are expressions of lust, not love. That's because you're not a fiend. I'm not speaking of mere lust here. I'm speaking of when one fiend loves another very much, feeling genuine affection, and, because of its evil nature, has no way to express that love but by continually having that person suffer.
Hellsbells 07-06-07, 07:30 AM	That's because you're not a fiend. I'm not speaking of mere lust here. I'm speaking of when one fiend loves another very much, feeling genuine affection, and, because of its evil nature, has no way to express that love but by continually having that person suffer. So its like the saying you hurt the ones you love? Or when (supposedly, personely not in my experience) a boy teases a girl they like?
Witch 07-06-07, 10:35 AM	So its like the saying you hurt the ones you love? Or when (supposedly, personely not in my experience) a boy teases a girl they like? Yes, but far more malicious.
soulnova 07-14-07, 12:10 PM	*reads first post* heh....hehehe....HAHHA, MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! *laughs herself to a coma* X'D Nop. She wants to rape him.
ArcTan 07-15-07, 12:45 AM	If Tiamat does lust for him, it's not because of anything like "love", it's because she wants to utterly own him in every way possible, and that includes forcing her diabolic self upon him. She's an evil goddess, for crying out loud. She doesn't get little hearts for eyes, even for a god with as huge a charisma as Bahamut. She's probably motivated by the idea of corrupting him and turning him to her side, as well.
Slayergnome 07-15-07, 01:47 AM	Thanks for clearing all of this up guys. I am a bit disappointed, though. It would have made for some interesting plot. However, I did find the part about them originally being meant to mate and produce the "ultimate dragon" very interesting. Anyone know what this end-all dragon would have been like? It has got me very intrigued. And would it still be possible to make this super dragon race? If it were created, could it be a form of salvation for the declining dragon kind? This is all fun what-if speculation, of course. Go with what you want man. If it works for your world make it so.
Thegans 07-15-07, 06:00 PM	No, it's not. Love is not a step towards redemption - it can be just as despicable as other vile act. You can feel affectionate towards another and express that affection in the only way you know of, i.e. by tormenting him/her. This is not a step towards redemption. Hmm. give me an example?? As far as I know tormenting and violating are expressions of lust, not love. That's because you're not a fiend. I'm not speaking of mere lust here. I'm speaking of when one fiend loves another very much, feeling genuine affection, and, because of its evil nature, has no way to express that love but by continually having that person suffer. So its like the saying you hurt the ones you love? Or when (supposedly, personely not in my experience) a boy teases a girl they like? Yes, but far more malicious. Actually that's probably not the only way that they could express it. Perhaps the fiend uses its power to overtly and covertly torment the enemies of of the person it cares about. For example lets say there is a relationship between a mortal wizard and a fiend. The wizard dreams of becoming an archmage but has to pass some kind of competition to get the training. The fiend has its minions murder the competition and steal the spellbooks for its mortal lover. Also even if its not a step towards redemption it doesn't mean they don't act better arround them. For example in real life I once knew a person(I haven't seen or talked to him in about a year) that cared a lot about his girlfriend(even becoming depressed when he was tricked by her brother into thinking that she commited suicide) and would never want anything bad to happen to her. Other that this and when it comes to wolves the person was an irredemably insane and evil bastard that wanted to crash the internet, set off an emp device, block out the son, enslave humanity, melt the ice caps, burn the earth, and tear appart the very fabric of time. Then again he also believed that he was the mortal shell of an anceint unnamed evil diety. Using that person as an example a fiend could in theory have a normal relationship. Someones annoying the fiend while the target of his affections arround. Telepathy with the person telling them As soon as she/he leave our sight I plan on removing your internal organs . and then following through as soon as the other person leaves. In my opinion evil people and fiends can still have normal friendships and relationships but only because I have seen something similar in real life. Or to quote the person I mentioned above when he was asked why he never trys to scare or mentally torment me when he did it to everyone else. "Why should I torment him he doesn't annoy me like the rest of you pathetic snivling mortal piles of wasted souls and maleformed DNA that waste too much of this planets oxygen during your pointless insignifigant existances?" or anoter quote he said when he mentioned his plan for world domination and someone asked if they could have Austrailia. "No my girlfriend likes koalas and if I give you Austrailia I would have to nuke it one you step foot on it. How do you expect me to expain to her that koalas were destroyed by thermonuclear radiation?" The scary thing about this is that I am not lying even the quotes were near exact quotes. But basically I agree but disagree. A fiend could express affection that way but its probably not the only way. The fiend coulds shower the person in gifts and demand nothing and act completely selfless when it comes to the person. That doesn't really help redemption when its busy holding the kings son for ransom one week and the daughter the next and when it kills the high priest and damns the church or when it gets bored one day and decides to rob the farms and places that grow food before setting them on fire to cause a famine. Basically as I said before the fiends lover could be suffering but I would find it more likely that the people suffering would be everyone that the fiends lover had a grudge against, if it was a mortal and a fiend or a mortal and a weaker fiend. A third possiblity is that if they are fiends on an equal or near equal level they simply help each other, maybe even helping each other be more evil. For example on the first date they attack an order of paladins and kill every single one while using some kind of magic to trap all of there souls. On the second date they torture the souls together and reanimate the bodies that are in the best condition. On the third date they use the reanimated dead so represent the staff at a dinner and feast on the souls of the former paladins within the place that the paladins were trained. Maybe one fiend likes to use poison and another likes to freeze its victims so the fiend finds a slow working very painful burning poison that becomes warmer over time when in a living body but slows down its effectiveness when near something cold. It adds the poison to the person and then the other fiend freezed them from the neck down to temperatures that would eventually cause them to freeze to death. The ice keeps them alive by slowing the poisoning making the torture longer while the poison keeps them alive by keeping them from freezing to death. Then they sit back and enjoy the screams of pain coming from their victim while the victim starves to death if mortal.
RavinRay 07-15-07, 09:20 PM	Who is the patron dragon diety of the gem dragons and what is it's possition in the dragonfall war? That's Sardior the Ruby Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030124a), who appeared in all his original 1e glory along with the gem dragons in Dragon Magazine #37 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/1980/37) way back in May 1980. Sardior doesn't have any direct involvement in the Tiamat-Bahamut dispute unless it spills over to include gem dragons. He's got other concerns, such as practitioners of magic being suspicious of psionics, the renegade cult of obsidian dragons and their allies, plus a possible clash with the githyanki. Where's Io been through all this? And am i the only one who feels that given the information from races of the dragon, draconomnicon, the monster manuals, and deities and demigods, bahamut should have lost the war a couple of centuries ago? Io won't intervene until the war reaches a global scale that threatens the existence of all dragonkind, or if all other races become weary of being casualties in the war and turn against all dragons (like what happened in Council of Wyrms). The spawn of Tiamat are a fairly recent addition, so while the war may have see-sawed between the two only fairly marginally, she's got a whole new enhancement to her forces that not even the dragonborn and felldrakes might be able to counter effectively. Bahamut's got an extra PrC squirreled away in Book of Exalted Deeds (Vassal of Bahamut), so the Platinum Knights have got some extra support against the Talons of Tiamat.
Hellsbells 07-16-07, 09:23 PM	Yes Ravin but it also sais in races of the dragon (i think) that tiamat has lots of mutint draconic creatures such as a giant praying mantis with a white dragons head and wings. Bahamat's creatures are not nessasarily more powerful then tiamats and it seems like she has more so.... I just think bahamat should have been wiped out. The only reason he isn't is because of game balancing reasons and because their is a very powerful neutral balance in my game (I.E. Evil and good must be in a constent struggle if the scales are tipped to much armagedon).