Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lord_xarallon 07-14-07, 08:20 PM	No, it is not the PC's that kills the gods. I am making a new campaign world (or rather have it in Faerūns future (not like our world, still medieval setting) after the planes collapsed and only a few are left) and suddenly I said to myself: The gods are dead. Then what? I don't want to delete the cleric class, but who are they to pray to now? I know the part of just believing in some ideal, but that just seems not enough now, since it is all they can do now. How can I add new flavor to the class, without changing too much of the crunch (Don't want to go there unless it is necessary) I want to leave traces of the gods in the world, and my ideas so far are: Make them to vestiges Use the godblooded template from MM5 Something like Lolth-touched. And one thing more I can't think of now Do you got any ideas, then please share. But basically I'm asking: what happens if all the gods die?
Janusunaj 07-14-07, 08:26 PM	Some very small number of gods may exist, but as depowered versions of themselves. Similar to the sorcerer kings of Athas.
lord_xarallon 07-14-07, 08:34 PM	Mortal gods... Sounds like a paradox. But I like the idea. I don't know about the sorcerer kings as I never played Darksun.
Janusunaj 07-14-07, 08:37 PM	Mystra, for example, could be a REALLY epic wizard like character, of course. As the most powerful god in Toril, she might just survive whatever destroyed the others, but happen to be depowered nonetheless.
lord_xarallon 07-14-07, 08:45 PM	I haven't come up with a reason why the gods die. It have been more like this in my mind: Now they are all dead, now what happens? But I like the idea of gods, stripped of the divine powers, walking the mortal world (which is the only left besides the elemental planes and a few others).
caeruleus 07-14-07, 10:27 PM	In Dark Sun, clerics were also devoted to the elements themselves rather than any deity, so that's an option. I know you said you don't want different crunch, but there's a mystic class in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting that's like the cleric only it draws on an inner power (or ambient magic or whatever). Basically, it's like a cleric, but it selects spells known and casts them like a sorcerer, and it doesn't get to turn undead (plus a few other minor differences). Even if you don't go quite this route, I think that if there were no more gods people would look to other sources of spiritual fulfillment, either through personal enlightenment or by making up new gods to suit their purposes.
Sorcen_Anenooata 07-14-07, 10:29 PM	For your reason, Sorcen could have killed them all. He does have a bit of a grudge against gods and has killed quite a few so far. ;) For you original question, I'd say make some of them vestiges and have the some of your powerful clerics worship the vestiges. Then some of the gods will be dead and their bodies can be adventure sites on the Astral Plane. Then the rest could be epic mortals and do away with the divine ranks and such but still allow them to grant spells. I dont have MM5 yet so I cant comment on the God-Blooded template and I cant remember much on the Lolth-touhed template at the moment so no comment there either.
Anarch_Bushey 07-14-07, 10:37 PM	Mortal gods... Sounds like a paradox. But I like the idea. I don't know about the sorcerer kings as I never played Darksun. ? You never read up on Norse Mythology have you? In norse mythology a very important teaching is the prophecy of Ragnarok. In which a fight amoung the world's finest warriors and monsters both good and evil die in combat. Even the gods are destined to die in combat.
Millennium 07-14-07, 11:18 PM	Pick up the Dragonlance campaign setting. While the gods of that setting are not dead, the setting did go through some periods where the gods were absent. The setting then goes through the various ways that people coped with the absence of gods. In the last incident, people began to discover how to cast divine magic through what they call "the power of the heart" within each individual. This led to what the Dragonlance setting calls the Mystic class, which is basically a divine sorcerer. It's not OGL so I can't reproduce it, but from the phrase "divine sorcerer" it shouldn't be difficult to extrapolate things.
DarkflameX 07-14-07, 11:22 PM	when the gods died they left parts of their entity inside mortals. they were known as avatars of said god. just a random idea but i like what you have going
Shemeska the Marauder 07-15-07, 02:37 AM	The multiverse would go on just as it did before the first gods appeared. Gods are fairly young beings in the grand scale of the history of the planes. Clerics could draw divine magic from abstract concepts, or from the various planar lords as conduits to those concepts, or in time and with enough critical mass of belief and faith, mortals might create new gods to replace those who had died.
Candin 07-15-07, 02:47 AM	Baldur's Gate comes to mind, with the Time of Troubles. You could draw on that. Perhaps the overgod (Ao, or whatever his name is) stripped them of their power for their negligence towards their people. Or you could come up with something grand involving spheres of annihilation. You could use Tharizdun from Complete Divine and his crazy cults. Entropomancer ftw!
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 06:53 AM	In Dark Sun, clerics were also devoted to the elements themselves rather than any deity, so that's an option. I know you said you don't want different crunch, but there's a mystic class in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting that's like the cleric only it draws on an inner power (or ambient magic or whatever). Basically, it's like a cleric, but it selects spells known and casts them like a sorcerer, and it doesn't get to turn undead (plus a few other minor differences). Even if you don't go quite this route, I think that if there were no more gods people would look to other sources of spiritual fulfillment, either through personal enlightenment or by making up new gods to suit their purposes. Just looked at the mystic. It look a lot like the spontaneous divine spellcaster variant from UA, which I have wanted to see in action. I will consider and probably use it.
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 07:15 AM	For your reason, Sorcen could have killed them all. He does have a bit of a grudge against gods and has killed quite a few so far. ;) Then it will truly set the power at the arena. And then the planes still need to wracked. For you original question, I'd say make some of them vestiges and have the some of your powerful clerics worship the vestiges. Then some of the gods will be dead and their bodies can be adventure sites on the Astral Plane. Making them to vestiges was part of my plan, but that is a lot of work. The astral plane, I was working on the idea that it was the astral plane that broke down and thereby causing the planes to collapse. But there is still a lot of other things like teleportation to explain. So that idea is put on hold so far. Then the rest could be epic mortals and do away with the divine ranks and such but still allow them to grant spells. As I understand the divine rank system: it is a way to stat the gods. I dont have MM5 yet so I cant comment on the God-Blooded template and I cant remember much on the Lolth-touhed template at the moment so no comment there either. Neither have I but I might get it tomorrow.
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 07:22 AM	? You never read up on Norse Mythology have you? In norse mythology a very important teaching is the prophecy of Ragnarok. In which a fight amoung the world's finest warriors and monsters both good and evil die in combat. Even the gods are destined to die in combat. I do know Norse Mythology. I come Denmark, it was what my forefathers believed in before Christianity. The gods from there does not seem like gods from other religions like Christianity or Greek Mythology. They seem weak if compare them, more like epic characters instead of divine characters.
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 07:31 AM	Pick up the Dragonlance campaign setting. While the gods of that setting are not dead, the setting did go through some periods where the gods were absent. The setting then goes through the various ways that people coped with the absence of gods. In the last incident, people began to discover how to cast divine magic through what they call "the power of the heart" within each individual. This led to what the Dragonlance setting calls the Mystic class, which is basically a divine sorcerer. It's not OGL so I can't reproduce it, but from the phrase "divine sorcerer" it shouldn't be difficult to extrapolate things. Got Dragonlance, but haven't read it, neither the Dragonlance novels as my library didn't have them. One of my friends do have, so I will ask him. when the gods died they left parts of their entity inside mortals. they were known as avatars of said god. just a random idea but i like what you have going Sounds somewhat like I was going to do with the god-blooded template.
zzo38 07-15-07, 01:39 PM	If all of the gods were dead, then the Favored Soul class would be deleted (the cleric class does not have to be deleted), clerics no longer worship a deity, and probably not much else. Maybe there wouldn't be as much war.
Eater_Of_Souls 07-15-07, 02:37 PM	As the gods do not truly die when their worshipper fade away I'd say god may still exist but only in a very limited fashion, think of the setting in dragonlance. Besides planes cannot just be destroyed as it is the shear power of the god that made the plane in the first place. Besides even if the planes would had collapsed what would stop gods from entering the material plane, exept the forbiddance of AO the over lord of the gods who also stated after the time of troubles that gods power is dependant of the worshippers, he could easily reverse that "rule" if he so wishes.
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 02:41 PM	The multiverse would go on just as it did before the first gods appeared. Gods are fairly young beings in the grand scale of the history of the planes. Yeah, probably, but I don't know how that went on. Clerics could draw divine magic from abstract concepts, or from the various planar lords as conduits to those concepts, or in time and with enough critical mass of belief and faith, mortals might create new gods to replace those who had died. I know about the first thing you suggest. The planes have collapsed so there will be no planer lords but upon the elemental planes. New gods? Hmm, I like the idea, but I don't think I will go there. Baldur's Gate comes to mind, with the Time of Troubles. You could draw on that. Perhaps the overgod (Ao, or whatever his name is) stripped them of their power for their negligence towards their people. Or you could come up with something grand involving spheres of annihilation. You could use Tharizdun from Complete Divine and his crazy cults. Entropomancer ftw! I never played Baldur's gate, but please tell. I have thought of the that idea a lot and will probably use it. Like the cult of Tharizdun managed to release their god, but he failed at destroying the world, though he almost succeeded. Might use that idea.
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 02:58 PM	If all of the gods were dead, then the Favored Soul class would be deleted (the cleric class does not have to be deleted), clerics no longer worship a deity, and probably not much else. Maybe there wouldn't be as much war. Yeah, I'm afraid that Favored Soul has to go, but cleric does stay. I just need to find out what they will worship. So far I have come with is the old way without gods and the other way: the elemental. But if I go with the elemental, then I might step on Shugenja's feets. As the gods do not truly die when their worshipper fade away I'd say god may still exist but only in a very limited fashion, think of the setting in dragonlance. Besides planes cannot just be destroyed as it is the shear power of the god that made the plane in the first place. Besides even if the planes would had collapsed what would stop gods from entering the material plane, exept the forbiddance of AO the over lord of the gods who also stated after the time of troubles that gods power is dependant of the worshippers, he could easily reverse that "rule" if he so wishes. It is the gods that dies, not the worshipers (maybe a few died in the plane collapsing, but certainly not all). What would stop the gods? They are dead. That is the reason of this thread, to find out what happens after that (and some plane collapsing). But do any of you got more ideas to why the gods die and the planes collapsed? And thanks everyone for the help and ideas so far.
Candin 07-15-07, 03:04 PM	Baldur's Gate is set in Forgotten Realms (you might be able to see a mention of this stuff in the book, I dunno, I don't own it). Basically, the backstory to it is that a couple of evil gods tried to take power from the overgod (Ao) and he got ******. So, his sentence for their disrespect was that every god would be forced to walk in mortal form with their worshippers. It's a period called the Time of Troubles (wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles_%28Forgotten_Realms%29) and it's rightfully named: a lot of bad stuff happened. A lot of the gods were murdered by godhunters looking to take their power, and by other gods themselves. Baldur's Gate itself centers around an offspring of one of these gods, it's not really important to your particular game, but this part of the exposition might be a lot of help.
Thegans 07-15-07, 05:04 PM	Yeah, probably, but I don't know how that went on. It went on with a bunch of chaotic outsiders battling each other till they went to war against the forces of law in the Age Before Ages. Although I know about the first thing you suggest. The planes have collapsed so there will be no planer lords but upon the elemental planes. New gods? Hmm, I like the idea, but I don't think I will go there. This brings up two interesting questions. What happens to the souls of the dead after there lives end and do classes that turn mortals into outsiders still function? Yeah, I'm afraid that Favored Soul has to go, but cleric does stay. I just need to find out what they will worship. So far I have come with is the old way without gods and the other way: the elemental. But if I go with the elemental, then I might step on Shugenja's feets. If you want to draw from real world belief systems you could simply make the cleric class more of a philosopher class. A cleric focused on support might go along the buddistic or Taoistic lines. While a cleric that focuses on being a CODzilla might have a view that is closer to that of a samurai since with wikipedias virtue article under samuri one of the things listed is, Never to be outdone in the way of the samurai or Bushidō. Which could simply be changed to Never be outdone. Maybe a satanic cleric who gains his spells through force of will. Sort of a, The Gods are Dead now I am my own God, kind of thing. If you use magic of incarnum you could simply say that a cleric draws power from the raw soul energy of the departed. For example a cleric with the evil domain could be calling upon the souls of every evil person that was, is, and shall be. Another possiblity is that they begin to worship entities from the Far Realm. Still there is one problem with the death of the gods that makes the cleric class impossible to function. One of the gods Mystra is basically the physical embodiment of nearly all magic as the weave. You might want to leave her and simply claim that she became immpartial. It is the gods that dies, not the worshipers (maybe a few died in the plane collapsing, but certainly not all). What would stop the gods? They are dead. That is the reason of this thread, to find out what happens after that (and some plane collapsing). But do any of you got more ideas to why the gods die and the planes collapsed? And thanks everyone for the help and ideas so far. One question is did the gods really die? For example the Lolth in Forgotten Realms is the same Lolth in other campaign settings. Perhaps the gods simply left to do to a world where they had less restrictions. Ao doesn't grant spells so knowledge of him could have just faded. Another possiblity if you keep Mystra is that she took back her divine power from her chosen under Ao's orders after he had been forgotten by mortals and then removed magic from the gods and the outer planes because of something the other gods did only leaving her, Ao, and maybe Shar if you want to keep the shadow weave. Ao could simply make it that they can't reveal themselves to anyone but the highest ranking members of their orders. If you go with that idea then perhaps Ao decided that things need to restart and that instead of punishing the gods like he did in the Times of Trouble he simply had all magic removed from them and then sent there spirits to the pssitive energy plane to get recycled into mortal souls.(if you use magic of incarnum or one of the other books mentioning souls growing in the positive energy plane). Maybe Ao is planning on slowly having the upper planes rebuilt to having divinity granted to mortals that show themselves worthy so that more balanced outer planes can be built. If you have the Fiendish Codex and use it in the setting perhaps the Blood War ended with the demons being conquered by the devils and Asmodeous leading the celestials to revoke the pact primeval destroying the lawful outsiders causing a chain reaction that destroyed the outer planes.
Millennium 07-15-07, 09:20 PM	Still there is one problem with the death of the gods that makes the cleric class impossible to function. One of the gods Mystra is basically the physical embodiment of nearly all magic as the weave. You might want to leave her and simply claim that she became immpartial. One possibility here is that Mystra did not truly die, but has ceased to exist as an independent intelligent being: all that is left of her is the Weave itself. In effect she's comatose with no hope of recovery. The same may have happened to Shar if you want to keep the Shadow Weave: in effect, existing as a Weave kept these two goddesses from vanishing completely in whatever cataclysm destroyed the rest of the gods, but with their intelligence and personality still destroyed it doesn't matter much.
Anodai 07-15-07, 09:55 PM	Divine Ascension There is one Overpower in the multiverse. This Overpower is neutral in alignment and cares not for mortal worshippers, or in fact the deities themselves. It only cares about the Great Wheel. The Great Wheel itself is a complex ecology of planes, elements, and alignments. Like any ecology, if it is disrupted to much, it breaks down. Therefore, this Overpower divided the all aspects of the Great Wheel down into portfolios, and he delegates these portfolios among the greater deities. These portfolios give the deities their divine power. Every single creature, element, plant, ideology falls within one or more portfolios, and it is not uncommon for these to overlap. The bigger the portfolios influence on the Great Wheel, the more divine power is associated with it. That is why the war between good and evil and law and chaos is a continual struggle. If more mortals become lawful for example, then the power associated with the Law portfolio increases. The elemental portfolios for example, are portfolios worthy of greater deity status, because the elements appear on every plane. The portfolio of a race that exists exclusively on a single plane on the other hand, is only worth a demigod status, because it hardly has any influence on the great wheel. Because portfolios often overlap, the greater deities in turn delegate some of their responsibility to deities of lesser rank, whose portfolio overlaps with theirs. The lesser deity in return gains a small aspect of the greater portfolio, which increases its divine power. Therefore, a deity with a demigod portfolio of lakes (A subportfolio of water) might help govern the water portfolio of a greater deity, therefore making it a lesser deity instead. As a rule of thumb, every additional demigod portfolio grants one additional divine rank, every lesser deity portfolio grants two additional ranks, every intermediate deity portfolio grants three additional ranks, and every greater deity portfolio grants four additional ranks. This is the cause for the excessive amount of politics among deities, as each tries to expand it's influence among portfolios and thus it's power. The death of a deity is a shock for the Great Wheel, as a portfolio is suddenly unmanaged until the Overpower assigns it to another good divine candidate for the position. (Usually a deity that already tapped into the portfolio's power.) If a portfolio is unmanaged, it usually leads to excesses. For example, if a weather portfolio becomes temporarily unassigned, weather conditions might start to shift rapidly from one extreme to another. Finally, the Overpower can also simply take away a portfolio from one deity and give it to another, but it will only do so if the deity that had it neglected it's duties or proved incompetent. Assuming Ao (overpower) didn't die, a race between powerful beings to godhood could be interesting
Eater_Of_Souls 07-16-07, 02:37 AM	Ao doesn't grant spells so knowledge of him could have just faded. AO did not exist to mortals before the time of troubles but you people are not listening a god does not die if it has no worshippers only when "physically" destroyed on a plane of it's origins by a being of equal or higher divine rank. Also AO has the power to resurrect the gods on need to know basis for eample Torm died on the time of troubles but was resurrected and raised to god by AO when he died. So god in FR and any other setting won't just die but they could leave the material plane and never come back, which woul have the same effect. On the other hand why am I arguing about this, since the result would be the same and this isn't my campaign ? :confused: Anyway back to planes collapsing, that would also erase every single outsider there is and since demon lords are not bound by a degree to not enter the material plane what would stop arch devils from taking over the material plane, when the gods run for it, likely the entire blood war could spill on the material plane ... Unless the collapsing of planes would be immediate but even then any deity with higher then divine rank 10 would know of it 2 weeks ahead before it happens and lesser deities a few days. So gods would certainly have a contingency plan for the collapse. In Baldurs Gate "lord of murder" knew 2 weeks ahead that he would be murdered so he naturally made several off springs to fuel his rebirth.
lord_xarallon 07-17-07, 07:30 PM	Thanks, Candin for the info. It went on with a bunch of chaotic outsiders battling each other till they went to war against the forces of law in the Age Before Ages. Although Oh. This brings up two interesting questions. What happens to the souls of the dead after there lives end and do classes that turn mortals into outsiders still function? The first, I have an idea, will post that later. The second, why not? Maybe a satanic cleric who gains his spells through force of will. Sort of a, The Gods are Dead now I am my own God, kind of thing. Kinda like Mystic from Dragonlance. If you use magic of incarnum you could simply say that a cleric draws power from the raw soul energy of the departed. For example a cleric with the evil domain could be calling upon the souls of every evil person that was, is, and shall be. I actually have a character that does this (though he ain't statted as his is only for roleplaying). Come to Sorcen Baator and meet him. Another possiblity is that they begin to worship entities from the Far Realm. Good idea. I already have planned a settlement of Tsocari under the flying city of Thay. (I know it was a region, but now it is a big city) Still there is one problem with the death of the gods that makes the cleric class impossible to function. One of the gods Mystra is basically the physical embodiment of nearly all magic as the weave. You might want to leave her and simply claim that she became impartial. Would all magic die if she died? Or just run amok? One question is did the gods really die? For example the Lolth in Forgotten Realms is the same Lolth in other campaign settings. Perhaps the gods simply left to do to a world where they had less restrictions. That is a option. A good one, though I still need a reason why, ad why the planes collapsed. Ao doesn't grant spells so knowledge of him could have just faded. Of course. Another possiblity if you keep Mystra is that she took back her divine power from her chosen under Ao's orders after he had been forgotten by mortals and then removed magic from the gods and the outer planes because of something the other gods did only leaving her, Ao, and maybe Shar if you want to keep the shadow weave. Ao could simply make it that they can't reveal themselves to anyone but the highest ranking members of their orders. What if she is imprisoned, will magic work? If you go with that idea then perhaps Ao decided that things need to restart and that instead of punishing the gods like he did in the Times of Trouble he simply had all magic removed from them and then sent there spirits to the positive energy plane to get recycled into mortal souls.(if you use magic of incarnum or one of the other books mentioning souls growing in the positive energy plane). Maybe Ao is planning on slowly having the upper planes rebuilt to having divinity granted to mortals that show themselves worthy so that more balanced outer planes can be built. I'm beginning to like the idea that Ao killed the gods (he can). If you have the Fiendish Codex and use it in the setting perhaps the Blood War ended with the demons being conquered by the devils and Asmodeous leading the celestials to revoke the pact primeval destroying the lawful outsiders causing a chain reaction that destroyed the outer planes. I don't have the Fiendish Codex's, but I definitely need to check this.
Thegans 07-17-07, 09:31 PM	[QUOTE] Good idea. I already have planned a settlement of Tsocari under the flying city of Thay. (I know it was a region, but now it is a big city) If you go with that idea perhaps the far realm gods helped with the deaths of the normal gods. Would all magic die if she died? Or just run amok? I'm not sure the last time she 'died' I think it temporarily stoped but when she became mortal it ran amok. The problem is that Mystra really isn't a normall godess Mystra 'is magic." That is a option. A good one, though I still need a reason why, ad why the planes collapsed. Perhaps they took parts of the planes with them destabilizing it. Also as for a reason they could have simply found a plane with out an Ao type figure to tell them what to do. What if she is imprisoned, will magic work? Maybe but the main thing is Mystra is basically an avatar of the weave and the weave is the source of magic meaning to completely destroy Mystra you have to destroy the weave. I'm beginning to like the idea that Ao killed the gods (he can). Technically the gods are only gods in the forgotten realms setting because Ao gives them permission to be gods. He did revoke that permission once before. I don't have the Fiendish Codex's, but I definitely need to check this. They don't actually say what would happen if the celestials tried to break the pact primeval.(At least the one mentioning devils doesn't but I don't have the other one) If it was the chaotic celestials probably nothing but since the pact primeval was a deal between the lawful outsiders if the lawful celestials tried then that might be a big enough chaotic action to upset the balance of allignement and since the outer planes are made of allignements it might act like a kind of metaphysical earthquake.
lord_xarallon 07-18-07, 08:00 AM	One possibility here is that Mystra did not truly die, but has ceased to exist as an independent intelligent being: all that is left of her is the Weave itself. In effect she's comatose with no hope of recovery. The same may have happened to Shar if you want to keep the Shadow Weave: in effect, existing as a Weave kept these two goddesses from vanishing completely in whatever cataclysm destroyed the rest of the gods, but with their intelligence and personality still destroyed it doesn't matter much. I think I'm going to something similar to this, thanks for the idea. Assuming Ao (overpower) didn't die, a race between powerful beings to godhood could be interesting But any candidate will become a new god.
lord_xarallon 07-18-07, 08:12 AM	AO did not exist to mortals before the time of troubles but you people are not listening a god does not die if it has no worshipers only when "physically" destroyed on a plane of it's origins by a being of equal or higher divine rank. Also AO has the power to resurrect the gods on need to know basis for example Torm died on the time of troubles but was resurrected and raised to god by AO when he died. So god in FR and any other setting won't just die but they could leave the material plane and never come back, which would have the same effect. Well, so far it is going to be Ao that kills the gods for something (He can do that). On the other hand why am I arguing about this, since the result would be the same and this isn't my campaign ? :confused: There will be results. I came here with little idea of what I was going to do, but now that have change due to nice people that helped me. Thank you all again. Anyway back to planes collapsing, that would also erase every single outsider there is and since demon lords are not bound by a degree to not enter the material plane what would stop arch devils from taking over the material plane, when the gods run for it, likely the entire blood war could spill on the material plane ... This is an example of what I didn't realize when I though "I could be fun to kill the gods and destroy their planes", but there are luckily some that does realize what would happen. Unless the collapsing of planes would be immediate but even then any deity with higher then divine rank 10 would know of it 2 weeks ahead before it happens and lesser deities a few days. So gods would certainly have a contingency plan for the collapse. In Baldurs Gate "lord of murder" knew 2 weeks ahead that he would be murdered so he naturally made several off springs to fuel his rebirth. If Ao wants the gods dead, then they are pretty much doomed.
Eater_Of_Souls 07-18-07, 02:31 PM	Well, so far it is going to be Ao that kills the gods for something (He can do that). If Ao wants the gods dead, then they are pretty much doomed. True or he might not want gods dead but wants to make new gods that would be better then old ones and reappearing of new gods takes time and what is time to something that has lived for so long that it might had lost what time means to a mortals. A thousand or million years all the same for a being that cannot die and has been there since the birth of the universe.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-18-07, 06:50 PM	A thousand or million years all the same for a being that cannot die and has been there since the birth of the universe. Ao hasn't been there since the birth of the multiverse. Since the birth of Toril and its solar system, likely. But the multiverse at large is older than any deity. And if we assume Ao to the be the incarnation of Toril's crystal sphere, he's fairly young compared to various planes, or the primordial precursors to those planes.
Eater_Of_Souls 07-19-07, 02:31 AM	Ao hasn't been there since the birth of the multiverse. Since the birth of Toril and its solar system, likely. But the multiverse at large is older than any deity. And if we assume Ao to the be the incarnation of Toril's crystal sphere, he's fairly young compared to various planes, or the primordial precursors to those planes. You have something to back that up ? ;) Nothing also says that Ao is the only overlord of the gods, they could be a hundred for all we know.