Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quirinus_Obsidian 01-31-07, 09:24 PM	Okay. We are currently in an extremely high level campaign. I have an idea regarding expanding on the Kyton monster class in the Planar Handbook. Currently, it is listed as an 8 hit dice creature, with a +6 LA. LE alignment, blah blah, Take that out of the equation. One is going to be progressed to 23 hit dice by taking class levels. how does one modify the # of attacks that this character gets; does he add Racial BAB (which is as Fighter, 1 per HD increase) to his class BAB, and secondly, does he get multiple attacks as his BAB is going to be at +23 @ 23 Hit Dice?
KurenaiYami 01-31-07, 10:05 PM	Just to point it out, he won't have 23 BAB with 23 total HD. Epic BAB doesn't work like that.
ripvanwormer 01-31-07, 10:08 PM	Once the kyton has all of its monster hit dice, you can add on class hit dice as normal. At that point (and not before) you can start adding Fighter BAB to the monster BAB. Keep in mind, however, that after 14 fighter levels the kyton becomes an epic level character (because it's ECL 21), and the epic rules kick in. That means its BAB and saves slow down, as shown on this chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm). As far as multiple attacks go, I've assumed it would progress as a fighter in every respect until it hits epic levels. But I've always been a little unclear about this.
Kain Darkwind 02-02-07, 01:58 AM	If you look at the frost giant blackguard in the MM 3.5, you can see that its BaB did not change when it hit ECL 21 (3rd level blackguard), nor when it hit 21 HD (7th level blackguard). As such, one can only assume a monster that advances in class levels does not begin using epic BaB until it has 20 actual class levels. In addition, look at its saves. Take away the +4 (cha) and +6 (con), and you have a base Fort save of +15. That is +9 (giant) and +6 (8th level blackguard). If the giant would have had epic BaB and saves at ECL 21, it would have a +10 (giant), +3 (preepic blackguard) and +3 (epic blackguard) for a total of +16 BaB. Incidently, never getting more than 3 attacks per full round, since epic BaB doesn't increase them.
sukael 03-03-07, 04:20 AM	Here's my take on it: 1) The kyton gets full BAB/saves/etc from racial hit dice. These ignore the switchover to epic progression. 2) At its 21st hit die and beyond, gained from whatever source, the kyton is epic--able to take epic feats, and so on. This is, however, a different issue than the saves/BAB/etc given by those hit dice. 3) Taking any class levels that would have a hit dice at or past the 21-HD marker should use the epic progression for BAB/saves. This is admittedly a contentious issue, particularly since Wizards books have gone either way on this one. I, personally, use the hallmark set by Deities and Demigods - most of the statted characters in there have exactly 20 racial hit dice, and those who do use the epic progression for all of their class levels (eg. taken at HD 21 and beyond).
Witch 03-03-07, 04:29 AM	If you look at the frost giant blackguard in the MM 3.5, you can see that its BaB did not change when it hit ECL 21 (3rd level blackguard), nor when it hit 21 HD (7th level blackguard). As such, one can only assume a monster that advances in class levels does not begin using epic BaB until it has 20 actual class levels. In addition, look at its saves. Take away the +4 (cha) and +6 (con), and you have a base Fort save of +15. That is +9 (giant) and +6 (8th level blackguard). If the giant would have had epic BaB and saves at ECL 21, it would have a +10 (giant), +3 (preepic blackguard) and +3 (epic blackguard) for a total of +16 BaB. Incidently, never getting more than 3 attacks per full round, since epic BaB doesn't increase them. That monster is likely in error, as the general rule is that character level (which is its hit dice) must be higher than 21 for a being to enter into epic saves & attacks. The only exception that can't be denied is creature with only racial HD, imo.
runestar 03-03-07, 07:24 AM	The rules for epic progression seems to be quite inconsistent throughout the board, since quite a number of monsters do not appear to follow the epic progression rules, and there are some which do. For example, the dragons in dragons of faerun, the eldritch giant cleric in MM3 deviate from the norm. The frost giant cleric in ELH does though, as does the sarrukh cleric in serpent kingdoms. Considering that she is from the the ELH, I think she can be safely assumed to be used as a good standard. does he get multiple attacks as his BAB is going to be at +23 @ 23 Hit Dice? His chains are natural weapons. They never benefit from extra attacks regardless of high your bab goes.:)
sukael 03-04-07, 01:16 AM	His chains are natural weapons. They never benefit from extra attacks regardless of high your bab goes.:) Being natural weapons, you might be able to use them as secondary attacks along with manufactured weapons (or unarmed strikes)... the problem is having a free hand to do it, since presumably you still need to hold the chains. I'd suggest boot blades (Complete Scoundrel, attack as daggers at a -1 penalty to attack rolls) or taking levels in Monk. (In either such case, you'd get your full attack bonus with the manufacture weapon/unarmed strike (including multiple attacks, if your BAB is high enough), and then full -5 attack bonus for the chains. You could get even more attacks by going the two-weapon fighting route.)
spncrbrrtt 03-05-07, 09:43 PM	hey, can you post the stats after you're finished? I love Kyton. :cool:
AngelofCthulhu 03-06-07, 01:21 PM	hey, can you post the stats after you're finished? I love Kyton. :cool: 2nd'd. They are tied with a few others for my fave monsters in all of DnD.