Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChaosVirus 11-18-06, 06:10 PM	I was thinking, what if someone went to the excess of order, till they believed the only solution was nothingness, abscense of all things and only then may things be well. Born long ago from a desire for ultimate perfection and good did this godess emerge. For a time she believed that evil could be vanquished, and chaos beaten. Though as the aeons passed, she became incrwasingly more mad, eventually chucking all out of her heaven believing she was the only one worthy to belong there. Only has there ever been a favoured servant, and this was her own daughter, the redeemer. Like her mother she was as mad as her killing all things whether evil or good, lawfull or chaos, beliving them all to be tainted. She eventually was banished from the realm of lawfull good, though some stories say she left of her own accord. Though whatever the reason, she retreated into the only place she could. The negative energy plane, feeling calm and at peace in its abscense, and its order. She became determined that all shall become apart of the void, till there is only nothing, and only then would she die, and with that evil and chaos would end, only leaving the pure good and order of nothingess. Because of her views she is viewed with even more hatred then the warriors of evil. Though she has follows, though each of these are usually loners and hermits, each enveloped and conusmed by there hate for existance, though determined that if they should end, then so shall everything else. She has paladins in her service, though many llichs do also. It is not unheard of in her cult for there to be lawfull good lichs. Though one would be mistake to think these beings would do acts of charity, and are as mad and deranged as herself.
DrScroob 11-18-06, 06:42 PM	Pretty weird for a good deity to have the goal of exterminating all life. I think by D&D standards this would make her somewhat EVIL no matter how she would be trying to justify it to herself. That coupled with the fact that she was expelled from the Lawful Good planes by the other gods would seem to indicate that she has deviated somewhat from that alignment.
ChaosVirus 11-18-06, 06:58 PM	Ah but thats the beutey of good and evil, there points of view. If she believes she is doing good, then she is good. Also where does it say that nothingness is evil =), nothingness is abscense, and this includes good and evil. Ultimate abscence means no alignment, and no existance. If she believes the only way to achieve her goal is to destroy all things, then it is a good goal. =) Also it is not really extermnating all life, she believes that by having everyone fuse with nothingness they will have ultimate peace, and an ultimate nirvana, a place of no bad thoughts and no sin.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-18-06, 08:16 PM	Unfortunately, Good and Evil aren't just points of view in D&D. They are very much defined forces. Wanting to destroy life for the sake of perfect balance and order (Or lack thereof) is lawful evil, definately lawful, not good at all.
Witch 11-18-06, 08:18 PM	Why lawful? What's in it for a collective? Any hierarchy? Rules? I don't see why it's lawful, really. Order would imply law, yes. But being alone isn't order. I'd place it more at Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. The desire for order just contradicts the rest of her. Nothingness is not order. But she's quite definitely not good.
jaw4ever 11-18-06, 08:58 PM	I like your approach. It remind me of Infinity Crusade from Marvel Comics: Purging the universe of all life so only good and order will provail. :angelhide
Witch 11-19-06, 07:59 AM	Murder isn't good. And before spouting relativistic nonsense, in D&D, morality is absolute, so I can state that easily.
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 08:01 AM	I was thinking, what if someone went to the excess of order, till they believed the only solution was nothingness, abscense of all things and only then may things be well. Born long ago from a desire for ultimate perfection and good did this godess emerge. For a time she believed that evil could be vanquished, and chaos beaten. Though as the aeons passed, she became incrwasingly more mad, eventually chucking all out of her heaven believing she was the only one worthy to belong there. Only has there ever been a favoured servant, and this was her own daughter, the redeemer. Like her mother she was as mad as her killing all things whether evil or good, lawfull or chaos, beliving them all to be tainted. She eventually was banished from the realm of lawfull good, though some stories say she left of her own accord. Though whatever the reason, she retreated into the only place she could. The negative energy plane, feeling calm and at peace in its abscense, and its order. She became determined that all shall become apart of the void, till there is only nothing, and only then would she die, and with that evil and chaos would end, only leaving the pure good and order of nothingess. Because of her views she is viewed with even more hatred then the warriors of evil. Though she has follows, though each of these are usually loners and hermits, each enveloped and conusmed by there hate for existance, though determined that if they should end, then so shall everything else. She has paladins in her service, though many llichs do also. It is not unheard of in her cult for there to be lawfull good lichs. Though one would be mistake to think these beings would do acts of charity, and are as mad and deranged as herself. By your standard, everyone in existance would be good. What you have described is. .CHaotic Evil, not Lawful good. Perhaps a very perverse form of lawful neutral or CHaotic neutral. I know you probably hate Alignment, but this is a bit of a stretch.
ChaosVirus 11-19-06, 03:29 PM	Well everyone seems to be insulting my goddess =/ Though I would explain some of my reasons some more. First if she cant be called good, then she cant be called evil either. Good and evil are dependent of existance, as they are the points of view of those currently living in existance. (also whats the point in being evil if there is nonone left to dominate, like good its dependent on existance. As it means having the material more important then the spirtual, which is vice versa in good) Therefore, she is not evil, though yes that means she is not good either, but in her mind she is, and thats all that matters to her. In a way think of her like the dark gods from terry pratchetts novels. She is nolonger classified by a moral spectrum, as she has become compleatly consumed by the nothingness she wishes to make everyone apart of. She is now apart of another moral specrtrum, one of people that dont exist. A moral spectrum compealty oppisite to existance. Therfore she is a paradox, and also a tragic being. A being who welcomes other tragic beings into her arms. She is the mother to so many lonely people. Though through there lonliness, there hate for others grows as well. EDIT: Little more story She started as a warrior goddess of law and light, destoying all evil doers. Carving out the sin she called it. Though her motives started to be questioned when she fashioned a sword from negative energy, from condensed non existance. A sword so powerfull that it simply did not exist. She used the sword, and instead of just killing the demon or evil doer, the body as well as the soul would be voided. Wiped from existance. There existed no judgement of the soul, no afterlife, just an end. A absolute end, a end where the simply fails to be anything left. As the years passed so did there suspicions of there sister grow. She became even more reclused, starting to make theroies on the nature of chaos and evil. Starting to believe that the flesh is chaos, that the flesh is sin. She then went further saying magic is chaos, and therfore sin. She then even began to question belief also beliving them all to be chaotic. She cracked is the simplist answer for it. Eventually she believed that all things are thriving in chaos. That everything has been corrupted, and that the only way to end chaos and evil was to destroy existance. Her theroy did not meet with welcoming eyes, and was banished. Calling her evil, calling her chaotic. She could not take such names, each an insult worse then any that could be made in the dark lanquages that even demons do not speak of. In her rage she struck down her sword comdeming them heathens, codeming them to be ignorant. She killed two gods before they could restrain her, and banished her to the negatice enrgy plane. For eons she was left there, consumed by the very forces she strived to make everyone apart of. She ceased to exist. Though strangly she still remained. A paradox, she begun to repersent deities that couldnt exist. Deities that will never be. She started to plan, vowing to prove her masters wrong, and make them join her, even if it means making them apart of her, apart of the void. She still belivies her deluded dream she is lawfull and good. Though it would be ignorant to call her evil and chaotic either. She has ceased to require an alignment, or maybe her alignment is so complex that nothing that exists can decipher or understand it.
Witch 11-19-06, 04:32 PM	(also whats the point in being evil if there is nonone left to dominate Domination is -Lawful- Evil. This isn't Lawful Evil, as I pointed out before. The desire to kill everything is Evil, but not Lawful. Furthermore, alignment is defined by being "non-complex". This creature is not complicated . She is Chaotic Evil, but believes she does good. That's all. (A case could be made for Neutral Evil, too)
General_Ridley 11-19-06, 05:35 PM	. First if she cant be called good, then she cant be called evil either. Good and evil are dependent of existance, as they are the points of view of those currently living in existance. first: she can't be called good, precisely because she is evil. second, Good/Evil/Law/Chaos define existance. They do not depend on it.
ChaosVirus 11-19-06, 06:41 PM	Chaotic evil is destruction for the sake of destruction, there is usually little purpose. If there is a purpose she cant be called chaotic. Nothingness is a natural function like death. Just because death collects souls does not make it evil.
Witch 11-19-06, 07:00 PM	Nothingness, or nihilism, is generally categorised as NE. Chaos does not mean absence of purpose. Not every time.
ChaosVirus 11-19-06, 07:23 PM	When I considure nothingness and existance, and think of alignments. I think the alignments belong to existance. With possibly evil being sympethetic with nothingess. Though I then believe in an oppisite set of aligments, which both mirror and reflect the alignments in existance. In this version, its version of light would be sympethetic with existance. Basically it is somthing which does not exist which in some ways strives for a form. This would mirror the evil in existance, which is somthing which exists which strives for an abscence in some cases. Again I am trying to play with the concept of nothing and everything within D&D, as I considure the negative energy plane to be so one sided, when it can possibly be made into a more varied place. I guess with my above statement I contridict my idea. Though I still want to create a being who has gone beyond the alignments, into somthing else, an in respects a personification of nothingness.
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 07:24 PM	Rereading, she started as lawful good, and drifted to an extreme form of Lawful Neutral. Perfect order has supplanted good in the Deity's goals. No longer does she care about people - (Good) but more about perfect order. The perfect order of nothing, through which no chaos and no variation slips, where everythign is brought equal because everything is nothing.
Witch 11-19-06, 07:26 PM	"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. "Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should. "Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them. Reread those paragraphs, and tell me again how she is Lawful Neutral :)
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 07:35 PM	Reread those paragraphs, and tell me again how she is Lawful Neutral :) LAwful in the sense of adherance to a form of order. Depends on precise definitions. .but it CANNOT in any form be lawful good, at any rate. THe specifics woudl need mroe definition of the goddess in question,.
Witch 11-19-06, 07:37 PM	Do you see any reference to a type of "order" in the write-up on Law? Sure, it is a part of it. But not essential. For example, the Rilmani care about the order/balance of the universe.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 07:38 PM	Nothingness, or nihilism, is generally categorised as NE. I disagree. Nihilists believe that ultimately nothing will matter. They know that what they do now may come back in the near future and bite them in the ass, so they generally behave. Nothingness is totally unaligned. It implies that not even moral values exist, since there's nothing to believe in them. This goddess could be pinned as Neutral Good with the following changes: She is not particularly active in her goals, but she realizes the futility of life and wants only to fade into nothingness. However, she also feels that she has the responsibility to convince others that her point of view is the best one. She doesn't want to kill them, nor does she want to force them to do anything they don't want. She doesn't see it as destruction, more like disembodiment followed by a constant state of ecstacy. As Lawful Good: Demons are Chaotic Evil, they're alive so Negative Energy kills them. Point: She grabs Demons by their throats and shoves a large dose of Negative Energy down their gullets. Her Clerics would also make heavy use of Undead to whale on the forces of Evil.
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 07:48 PM	"A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government." A personal code in regards to what she believes will accomplish her "Perfect order" and she wishes to accomplish it being neutral to the good or evil effects of her actions. SHe is for a very specific form of order; the order of nothingness. Lawful neutral or Neutral neutral. ..but. .again. .in no way GOOD.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 07:50 PM	Life is not inherently Good, so why should the destruction of it be inherently Evil?
Witch 11-19-06, 07:50 PM	She stands for -killing- people in general. That's not morally neutral.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 07:52 PM	She stands for -killing- people in general. That's not morally neutral. Is she killing them or having them killed? The reasons and methods for killing sometimes play into how it's morally aligned.
Witch 11-19-06, 07:52 PM	Life is not inherently Good, so why should the destruction of it be inherently Evil? Because the destruction of innocent life (by objective standards, not personal standards) is declared evil in the PHB.
Witch 11-19-06, 07:53 PM	Is she killing them or having them killed? The reasons behind killing sometimes play into how it's morally aligned. Killing or having killed makes no difference. Letting them die by old age, perhaps.
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 07:53 PM	Life is not inherently Good, so why should the destruction of it be inherently Evil? “Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. Therefore, the destruction of life is inherantly NOT good. I put her at Neutral on the moral axis, not evil, note. ..but a good argument could be made for evil. ONly. . .the one thing she CANNOT be is Good.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 07:54 PM	Because the destruction of innocent life (by objective standards, not personal standards) is declared evil in the PHB. Right, right. But what if said life wants it?
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 07:56 PM	Right, right. But what if said life wants it? . .but it doesn't, so the point is moot. ALl life obviously does NOT want to be destroyed, she wants to destro7y all life. THerefore she also wants to destroy life that does not want to be destroyed. QED.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 07:56 PM	“Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. Consider Demons, though. I'm not outright disagreeing with any of you, or RAW for that matter, I'm merely trying to annoy you. ;)
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 07:57 PM	Consider Demons, though. I'm not outright disagreeing with any of you, or RAW for that matter, I'm merely trying to annoy you. ;) Its just that by the definition of good, it is completely impossible for this goddess to be good.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 07:58 PM	. .but it doesn't, so the point is moot. ALl life obviously does NOT want to be destroyed, she wants to destro7y all life. THerefore she also wants to destroy life that does not want to be destroyed. QED. But she doesn't want to kill them. As it stands, she looks like she wants convince everybody to want to die, not outright kill them (granted, it's pure madness).
Witch 11-19-06, 08:03 PM	Consider Demons, though. They don't want to die. They get to die because Good is not moronic.
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 08:03 PM	But she doesn't want to kill them. As it stands, she looks like she wants convince everybody to want to die, not outright kill them (granted, it's pure madness). That STILL is not a respect for life. If its not wanting to outright kill them either, then its not evil> Therefore my setting of. .Neutral.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 08:06 PM	That STILL is not a respect for life. If its not wanting to outright kill them either, then its not evil> Therefore my setting of. .Neutral. I'm willing to accept Neutral. I feel that respect for life includes respect for the creature's choices, though, too. They don't want to die. They get to die because Good is not moronic. Good, however, is arrogant.
Witch 11-19-06, 08:08 PM	A point I easily grant.
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 08:11 PM	I'm willing to accept Neutral. I feel that respect for life includes respect for the creature's choices, though, too. Good, however, is arrogant. Respect for a creatures choices would include respecting its desire to live. Note I only BRIEFLY argued evil before switching to neutral. "Somethign neutral' depending on specifics, I could make arguments for ANY of the neutral alignments. Even true Neutral; wanting to restore everythign to the perfect balance of ""There is no evil because there is also no good, and there is no CHaos because there is also no law"
ChaosVirus 11-20-06, 04:28 AM	"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should. Hmmmmm she is closeminded. She will no longer accept any other belief. She also cant adapt that easily to change, hense when she cracked other the insults she got from the other gods. She activly promotes her beliefs, and within her followers they have a society where they depend on each other in there loneliness. of course nothing means no law either. But like evil can sympethise with nothing and nilism. Order symphesis with nothing in aspects as well. Her followers actively hunt demons above all else. Mainly as they repersent the things they hate most. Chaos is to them the very pinicle of existance. Its fleshy and its magical, its a product of existance which is hard to wash away. Also its evil a hate she still has from her days when she used to be sane.
daer_yraen 04-30-07, 01:11 AM	I'd like to point out the ultimate Deity of nihlisim. Tharizdun, his ultimate goal is the complete and utter destruction of reality, so that nothing can exist. And his Alignment? Neutral Evil. With your reasoning you seem to use the behavioural system from Eberron then actually Alignment.
ChaosVirus 04-30-07, 11:45 AM	=/ My reasons for making her beliefs mixed are my own. But really this thread is kinda old now =/