Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mmxbass 01-19-08, 02:41 PM	I was under the impression that when a lich's phylactery is destroyed that his soul is as well. Does that imply that once a lich's phylactery is destroyed and his body is slain that he's just gone? Will he never become a petitioner of any plane or deity?
Shemeska the Marauder 01-19-08, 03:33 PM	I would argue that the phylactery is effectively a prison of choice -for lack of a better term- for a lich's soul, preventing his soul from migrating to whatever ultimate destination is continually tugging at it, seeking to wrest it free from its anchor of negative energy. Once the phylactery is destroyed, I'd say that the soul then resumes its migration to whatever plane matches the lich's alignment, or to the domain of whatever archfiend or deity might lay claim to the lich's soul. I could also see in some cases that the soul might undergo a transformation to a unique type of being such as a darklight, due to the interaction of the negative energy plane with the soul as it attempts to migrate to the outer planes. Likewise in some cases the soul might be destroyed in the process of the phylactery itself being torn apart.
Rohano 01-19-08, 04:15 PM	I'd say a lich would be released to be a petitioner upon its final destruction (etc. etc. phylacterize me, cap'n!, etc. etc.). Or, if it has sold its soul to Archfiend 01280756, it becomes a soul mote or grub or slug or what have you, instead of a petitioner.
mmxbass 01-19-08, 05:40 PM	I mean, on one hand I would imagine that many slain liches would probably want to join with Vecna or Wee-Jas in that case. It would be hard to justify Vecna encouraging lichdom if the soul is totally destroyed upon phylactery destruction. Loss of souls is loss of power and I think even the de-facto god of liches has the sense to realize that a good number of liches end up screwing up and getting their phylactery broken after only a few decades. Would I be safe to assume that any post-destruction rules for phylacteries apply to a dry liche's canopic jars as well? On one hand it's a similar thing but on the other hand, a lich seems like it was never really intended for player use (the ritual of endless night is lacking for detail in most books). The dry lich, conversely, seems specifically designed with player use in mind. So maybe they are different. I would imagine some characters wouldn't want to run the risk of being utterly annihilated. Though on the other hand, most of the types that would choose to become liches would probably end up being utterly wiped out in the blood war anyway (killed in an off-plane battle).
Watcher_in_the_mists 01-19-08, 09:20 PM	personnaly id say that once a lich phylactery is broken, its soul resume its migration so it becomes a petitionner, the one it should have become before it tricked death and sealed its soul away. Though i could easily agree with the supposition that once the phylactery is destroyed, so is the soul. The final judgment remains up to you.
mmxbass 01-19-08, 11:42 PM	Now that I think about it more, I think allowing the destruction of the phylactery destroy the soul would introduce some mechanics problems... possibly. It depends on what happens if: - One were to cast true resurrection on a "living" lich with intact phylactery. - One were to cast true resurrection on a "dead" lich with intact phylactery. - One were to cast true resurrection on a "living" lich with destroyed phylactery. - One were to cast true resurrection on a "dead" lich with destroyed phylactery. Any thoughts? It may say somewhere what happens.
celestialkin 01-20-08, 12:18 AM	I would argue that the phylactery is effectively a prison of choice -for lack of a better term- for a lich's soul, preventing his soul from migrating to whatever ultimate destination is continually tugging at it, seeking to wrest it free from its anchor of negative energy. Once the phylactery is destroyed, I'd say that the soul then resumes its migration to whatever plane matches the lich's alignment, or to the domain of whatever archfiend or deity might lay claim to the lich's soul. I could also see in some cases that the soul might undergo a transformation to a unique type of being such as a darklight, due to the interaction of the negative energy plane with the soul as it attempts to migrate to the outer planes. Likewise in some cases the soul might be destroyed in the process of the phylactery itself being torn apart. I agree. However, this brings up an interesting question. Say at the time the soon-to-be lich killed himself to become a lich he was purely evil and destined to go tothe abyss or to be consumed by his evil deity. However, over the centuries he saw the light and became good. He even began doing good deeds to help innocent people. What would happen to his soul then? Would the lich still be destined to the damned afterlife he was meant to go to when he died/killed himself?
mmxbass 01-20-08, 01:09 AM	Would the lich still be destined to the damned afterlife he was meant to go to when he died/killed himself?Assuming a lich's soul survives destruction of the phylactery, I would say no. Remember that there is no real such thing as "damnation" in the traditional sense. A soul travels to a plane or deity because it choses to. A chaotic evil soul, for example, ultimately choses to go to the Abyss. There is no reward or punishment, only the guarantee that you will be around other souls just like you. That being said, I would contend that the soul travels to its plane of choice at the time of migration to the outer planes and therefore is free to change its mind any time prior to that.
JulesCARV 01-20-08, 01:25 AM	Bear in mind that petitioners are not immortal -- and so it's possible that a soul-in-a-phylactery might not be immortal either. Untethered to a living being, a soul in the outer planes first does a sort of simulation of life as a petitioner, but eventually decoheres and merges with the plane. Like a soul in the outer planes, a soul in a phylactery isn't attached to anything truly living. As such, perhaps it can't stay stable. For a very old lich, it might eventually decohere, without the lich ever noticing. From then on, the lich no longer has a soul, but rather is a pure form of undead malevolence which apparently has the same mentality, attitudes, knowledge, etc, as the person it once was, but without anyone really "home."
mmxbass 01-20-08, 01:34 AM	Bear in mind that petitioners are not immortalThat's why I mentioned earlier that the type of person who would become a lich is likely to get annihilated a blood war battle soon after migration to his appropriate outer plane anyway.
JulesCARV 01-20-08, 01:37 AM	My point, though, was that a lich's soul might die while the phylactery is still intact. Or maybe not.
mmxbass 01-20-08, 01:43 AM	I'm not sure it's an equal comparison though. A lich's essence is still a non-physical soul within a physical container, same as a normal mortal human. A petitioner, on the other hand, has a physical soul that is one and the same as his or her body.
mmxbass 01-20-08, 05:14 PM	Another point I didn't consider is the possibility that the soul may or may not survive depending on the manner in which the phylactery is destroyed. For example: A really hard hit from a really big sword might leave the soul within unharmed. Conversely, hitting the phylactery with a sphere of annihilation may very well destroy the contained soul.