Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kakita_Duelist 03-26-07, 10:21 PM	In a campaign I'm starting, Im altering the nature of Erinyes to fit my personal tastes. I never really liked the idea of all female Erinyes, because if they did fall from Celestia and the other good planes, that dosen't explain why they're all female. As such, in my campaign, Erinyes are the only actual "denizens" so to speak (that is, they're born there, not made from soul shells [I am aware that FC2 brought this forth as well, i'm just expanding on the idea]) and there are both male and female Erinyes. My idea is that, when Asmodeous fell, he almost surely brought with him his closest luitenants and trusted soldiers, so, my history brought forth in my campaign is that the Nessian Guard is made up of 665 Erinyes (Asmodeous would be the 666th [sorry, I had to]) They're divided up between his elite circle of 5 (all epic level Blackguards with different class abilities here and there) They serve as Asmodeous' only real council of true allies he has (being personifications of raw Law and Evil, they have no need for ambition, they follow their leader "blindly"[quoted for emphasis in that, they, as extremely high ranking devils, would know pretty much all there is to know]) The Nessian quard would then be divided into 60 11 man squads, each a level 20 caster or fighter. Because of this change, I had to make a race for the Erinye, so I figured I'd include it, but because it is late, I'll be sure to add it tomorrow... by the way, I'd love to get Rip's opinion on this (being as I love the Planewalker encyclopedia, it really helps us out who don't have ready access to 2nd ed. Planescape material.)
ripvanwormer 03-26-07, 10:38 PM	Personally, I favor the 2nd edition interpretation that erinyes are just another caste of baatezu, promoted from promising kocrachons. From FC2, however, I don't think erinyes fell from Celestia. If they're descended from Asmodeus's ancient legions, they would have been Lawful Neutral beings corrupted into evil during the wars against the obyriths. I agree that it's a bit confusing if they're all female and continue to reproduce sexually - who do they mate with? Perhaps they mate with male baatezu, which would explain why they have the baatezu subtype even though they don't have the same origins as other baatezu. They're essentially half baatezu, half corrupted lawful neutral outsider. Whether or not it makes sense that they were originally all female depends on the nature of the race from which they came, which we really know nothing about. Perhaps they're entirely female, and it's natural for their race to reproduce by mingling with other species. Dragon #341 mentions an angelic race called aphanacts who ruled Mechanus and sought to conquer other planes in the name of Law - that sounds a lot like the race Asmodeus led into the Blood War. I'd like to think Asmodeus himself wasn't one of them, but one of the greater progenitors of Law, like those who banished him.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-26-07, 11:35 PM	Dragon #341 mentions an angelic race called aphanacts who ruled Mechanus and sought to conquer other planes in the name of Law - that sounds a lot like the race Asmodeus led into the Blood War. I'd like to think Asmodeus himself wasn't one of them, but one of the greater progenitors of Law, like those who banished him. Consider this idea yoinked. It's yummy enough that it would really serve to patch some holes in planar prehistory if it were ever possible to work it into something in print. Somebody needs to do so (-go pimp this to Ken if Dragon has him do another Modron article-). I really like the notion that the Aphancts as a race were ancestors of the original LN race from whom came the corrupted members that become the first erinyes. If some of them remained on the side of pure Law after the ejection of Asmodeus from an early proto-Mechanus, perhaps some of his taint remained with their race, ultimately rising and expressing itself as the strain of brutal and expansionist Law that led to the Aphancts being exterminated by the other Lawful races and gods of Mechanus (and likely some of the celestial races as well). Perhaps the seed race of the Aphancts that would become the first erinyes lost their ability through their corruption from LN to LE to reproduce via something like the lifemolds used by the later Inevitables, or more to my liking they had some version of procreation like the Parai, recruiting LN petitioners to become more of a neuter/female race. The corrupted proto-aphancts that became erinyes were bereft of whatever mechanism they left behind, and so the modern erinyes adapted to breeding with baatezu to reproduce.
SpoonyBard 04-05-07, 10:04 PM	I'd like to point out that 666 is the DEMONIC number in DnD, not the DIABOLIC one. Thank you, that is all.
ripvanwormer 04-05-07, 11:09 PM	I'd like to point out that 666 is the DEMONIC number in DnD, not the DIABOLIC one. Not entirely true. A standard baatezu company consists of 333 devils of any one caste, so any three companies will have precisely 666. A standard company of "least" devils (baatezu, nupperibos, spinagons) is 666. While 1st edition claimed there were exactly 666 layers of the Abyss, this notion has been mostly abandoned.
Old Sparky 04-06-07, 09:59 AM	From FC2, however, I don't think erinyes fell from Celestia. If they're descended from Asmodeus's ancient legions, they would have been Lawful Neutral beings corrupted into evil during the wars against the obyriths. Not necessarily LN beings. Just because the powers that be at the time only recognized law, neutrality, and chaos does not mean those were the only things to exist. After all, the demons were around, and they were CE... or did you think they started as CN and slowly morphed into CE once the gods saw Asmodeus's evil ways in action? I agree that it's a bit confusing if they're all female and continue to reproduce sexually - who do they mate with? Perhaps they mate with male baatezu, which would explain why they have the baatezu subtype even though they don't have the same origins as other baatezu. They're essentially half baatezu, half corrupted lawful neutral outsider. Erinyes mate with mortals and unique devils capable of reproduction. Perhaps, as part of their fall, they were transformed into baatezu. Or, maybe, dwelling in Hell for so long after the fall altered their nature and altered their Outsider subtype. Whether or not it makes sense that they were originally all female depends on the nature of the race from which they came, which we really know nothing about. Perhaps they're entirely female, and it's natural for their race to reproduce by mingling with other species. Dragon #341 mentions an angelic race called aphanacts who ruled Mechanus and sought to conquer other planes in the name of Law - that sounds a lot like the race Asmodeus led into the Blood War. I'd like to think Asmodeus himself wasn't one of them, but one of the greater progenitors of Law, like those who banished him. Although unlikely, perhaps the fallen "angels" that came to Hell with Asmodeus have gender inequality issues. For one thing, perhaps the Erineyes chose to hold on to their forms while their male counterparts accepted promotions and moved on... why? Because the erinyes --aside from unique devils-- are the only baatezu that can bear children. It makes them feel special. A less likely (and more politically incorrect) idea might have the original forms of these fallen angels as having been both male and female... and all of the males were transformed into females. They generally don't have much room for infernal advancement of their status, limiting them to the "women's work" of Hell. I doubt that latter option will be popular with many, but --as punishments go-- I could think of worse theories.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-06-07, 10:55 AM	Not necessarily LN beings. Just because the powers that be at the time only recognized law, neutrality, and chaos does not mean those were the only things to exist. After all, the demons were around, and they were CE... or did you think they started as CN and slowly morphed into CE once the gods saw Asmodeus's evil ways in action? FC:II's mythology is written from the perspective of beings of Law, and while they didn't initially recognize Good or Evil, beings of Good and Evil existed in the early planes with their own little party and conflicts going on (and they in turn initially wouldn't have recognized Law or Chaos as existing). Asmodeus and his ilk originated from beings that only recognized Law, at a time before the pure alignments had mixed to the same degree as in the modern planes. By default they would have started as LN, with LG and LE beings only arising as the influence of proto-Elysium and the proto-Waste impacted what would become Mechanus (or viceversa). The first demons, the Obyriths started CE yes, but they were the creations (intentional or not) of an original NE race of fiends, and they migrated to the Abyss (or their migration formed the nascent Abyss or locked it into its earliest form) rather than starting there. From most of the solid material on the early planes that we know, the "pure" alignments and their native exemplars came first, with the mixed alignments (and the mixed planes) emerging naturally as the alignments mixed or as the result of being intentionally created by those first "pure" alignment beings. Asmodeus given his origin would have started out LN, falling to LE. At the same time it's quite possible that the first LG beings to arise out of LN (as opposed to any putative NG celestials going to LG) might have arisen as a reaction and rejection of Asmo's path.
sciborg2 04-06-07, 11:07 AM	but they were the creations (intentional or not) of an original NE race of fiends, and they migrated to the Abyss (or their migration formed the nascent Abyss or locked it into its earliest form) rather than starting there. I saw this more as rumor, since in the beginning of FCI there is the theory that demons arise from the Abyss which was the first among all planes and origin of Everything.
ripvanwormer 04-06-07, 12:58 PM	Not necessarily LN beings. Just because the powers that be at the time only recognized law, neutrality, and chaos does not mean those were the only things to exist. Good and Evil existed, but Asmodeus and his ilk were not at first part of them. This is clear from the book in question; they were lawful neutral to begin with, and only later, when they discovered the existence of good and evil, did they ally with those forces. The obyriths either started out as CN and became CE or they started out as NE and became CE. Most sources suggest the latter, but it's possible they had multiple origins.
JulesCARV 04-07-07, 04:15 AM	Not entirely true. A standard baatezu company consists of 333 devils of any one caste, so any three companies will have precisely 666. A standard company of "least" devils (baatezu, nupperibos, spinagons) is 666. While 1st edition claimed there were exactly 666 layers of the Abyss, this notion has been mostly abandoned. Either you mean that 1) a standard company consists of 222 devils, so any three companies will have 666, 2) a standard company consists of 333 devils, so any two companies will have 666, 3) a standard company consists of 333 devils, so any three companies will have 999, or 4) or planar arithmetic is just weird and doesn't work like ours..
ripvanwormer 04-07-07, 12:40 PM	a standard company consists of 333 devils, so any two companies will have 666, Er, yes.
Sliced_Mustard 04-25-07, 02:32 PM	FC:II's mythology is written from the perspective of beings of Law, and while they didn't initially recognize Good or Evil, beings of Good and Evil existed in the early planes with their own little party and conflicts going on (and they in turn initially wouldn't have recognized Law or Chaos as existing). Asmodeus and his ilk originated from beings that only recognized Law, at a time before the pure alignments had mixed to the same degree as in the modern planes. By default they would have started as LN, with LG and LE beings only arising as the influence of proto-Elysium and the proto-Waste impacted what would become Mechanus (or viceversa). From most of the solid material on the early planes that we know, the "pure" alignments and their native exemplars came first, with the mixed alignments (and the mixed planes) emerging naturally as the alignments mixed or as the result of being intentionally created by those first "pure" alignment beings. Asmodeus given his origin would have started out LN, falling to LE. At the same time it's quite possible that the first LG beings to arise out of LN (as opposed to any putative NG celestials going to LG) might have arisen as a reaction and rejection of Asmo's path. this seems like an erroneous presumption. you say the entities inquestion only recognized law and talk of pure alignments and later mixing of good and evil, there is a very strong piece of evidence in FC2 that counters this line of thinking. Asmodeus's copy of the pact primeval itself, in citadel called Tabjari radiates law, but also both good and evil in equal measure. I dont' believe the original dieties of law or their servants had no moral component to their alignments, I just think they chose to acknowledge law as more important. good and evil were lesser considerations until Asmodeus showed them just how much evil could twist the law to its benefit. it was at this point the gods started separating themselves further from each other, possibly out of mistrust over this epiphany. thanks, Asmodeus, for ruining it for everybody! but that doesn't mean good and evil didn't didn't exist in them beforehand.....only that Asmodeus made them acknowledge it....maybe that's one more reason they tossed him out of the heavens with such force.
ripvanwormer 04-25-07, 03:40 PM	Asmodeus's copy of the pact primeval itself, in citadel called Tabjari radiates law, but also both good and evil in equal measure. Well, yes, because by the time the Pact Primeval was signed, Asmodeus was very evil, and some of the other powers, since they had become aware of evil and reasoned that it needed to be opposed, had become good. But before Asmodeus was corrupted, before the war against the obyriths, the powers of Law were entirely unaware of evil, and they were unaware of good as well. They were all purely lawful. They opposed the obyriths simply because they were chaotic, and only learned about evil and its corruptive aspects later on.
Sliced_Mustard 04-25-07, 10:55 PM	my bad, I didn't read that part. where does it say so they were pure neutral before then?
ripvanwormer 04-25-07, 11:02 PM	my bad, I didn't read that part. where does it say so they were pure neutral before then? It doesn't say that, but that's my interpretation of things. The myth is very vague, and it's "just" a myth, just one myth among many others, and although it's "true" it might not really have happened. You could assume that they all started out as lawful good, but I think that would do very odd things to the cosmological history. It doesn't make sense to me that they would understand good but not evil, not in the D&D cosmology where every alignment axis is equal. It makes more sense to me to assume they started out as champions of pure Law, lawful neutral beings who had as yet no contact with the progenitors of Evil and Good.
sooperspook 04-26-07, 02:33 AM	... The first demons, the Obyriths started CE yes, but they were the creations (intentional or not) of an original NE race of fiends, and they migrated to the Abyss (or their migration formed the nascent Abyss or locked it into its earliest form) rather than starting there..... What? Where does it say that? Every source I've read so far, says the Obyriths rose from the substance of the Abyss spontaneously.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-26-07, 03:09 AM	What? Where does it say that? Every source I've read so far, says the Obyriths rose from the substance of the Abyss spontaneously. FC:I page 107, first paragraph under the Obyriths heading. It's (or a version of it) is then confirmed IC by the dying Obyrith Bechard on page 147 under the Bechard's Landing section. That material itself builds upon and follows an evolution of the mythology presented in 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends', and the origin myths and lower planar timeline presented in 'Hellbound: The Blood War', among other places. Some version of that mythology appears to have happened, though it doesn't preclude the formation of second and subsequent generations of Obyriths from the raw stuff of the Abyss, it only has the original Obyriths as being created by the Baernaloths. The mythology also doesn't specify if their creation was intentional or not, or if their movement into the Abyss was guided, forced, or if they abandoned or rebelled against their makers. I'd leave the particulars an open question myself.
Another Gnome 04-26-07, 03:35 AM	I never really liked the idea of all female Erinyes, because if they did fall from Celestia and the other good planes, that dosen't explain why they're all female. Just to point out... MM, p. 54: "Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men."
Kakita_Duelist 04-26-07, 09:12 PM	wow... now i feel stupid. Oh well, at least it was a gnome and not some stupid half orc.
Old Sparky 04-27-07, 04:34 AM	You could assume that they all started out as lawful good, but I think that would do very odd things to the cosmological history. It doesn't make sense to me that they would understand good but not evil, not in the D&D cosmology where every alignment axis is equal. It makes more sense to me to assume they started out as champions of pure Law, lawful neutral beings who had as yet no contact with the progenitors of Evil and Good. I would say they all started out rather law-minded. Some had good thoughts, a couple may have had evil thoughts, and some probably sat squarely on the LN fence. The way I see it, at that early stage, they didn't see Good or Evil as important as Law and Chaos at first. They were too focused on the chaos those demons created and trying to encourage mortals to choose to live an orderly life because that's how the gods intended it. It took Asmodeus and his followers to really open their eyes to the good and evil thing. Of course, by then, it was too late and some good things (angels) had been thoroughly corrupted by their prolonged exposure to evil... fighting the demons, following the leadership of a corrupted angel, and so on. Seems logical to me. Before Asmodeus was cast out, they seemed quite put off by his execution of punishment. If they were so neutral, I don't think they would have been as upset as they were portrayed by the Hell established in the heavens. Quite anxious to be rid of it, they grudgingly agreed to let Asmodeus have his way and found out afterwards that his evil continued to haunt them. I'm not saying the gods and "angels" were lawful good... just not lawful neutral exclusively. I firmly believe there were LGs amidst their number but they had to be taught that good and evil were as important in the whole alignment scheme as they believed law and chaos were.
Rerecros 04-27-07, 06:06 PM	In Greek mythology the Erinyes or Eumenides (the Romans called them the Furies) were female personifications of vengeance. When a formulaic oath in the Iliad invokes "those who beneath the earth punish whoever has sworn a false oath. The Erinyes are simply an embodiment of the act of self-cursing contained in the oath" (Burkert 1985 p 198). They were usually said to have been born from the blood of Ouranos when Cronus castrated him. According to a variant account, they issued from an even more primordial level—from Nyx, "Night". Their number is usually left indeterminate, though Virgil, probably working from an Alexandrian source, recognized three: Alecto ("unceasing," who appeared in Virgil's Aeneid), Megaera ("grudging"), and Tisiphone ("avenging murder").:)
Sliced_Mustard 04-27-07, 07:43 PM	thats all well and good if you are playing a campaign based on Greek history & mythology.