Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PunkRockBard 03-06-07, 08:35 PM	After i -think- i've made peace with an issue....something else just comes up. Looking at the Yugoloths in MM III, Nycaloth Commanders (enhanced Nycaloth) have a CR of 17 compared to the 13 rating of the Ultroloth. Nycaloths....two ranks below the creatures who are at the top of the non-unique yugoloth chain...can have a significantly higher CR. i think whenever a WOTC writer..possibly save james jacobs and erik mona...is told to write yugoloth material...their brains get sucked out by a mind flayer. Sorry to bring up the infamous Ultroloth CR.....i'm sure many tire of the complaints..but it is a sore spot for some. On a more positive note...i went to ther dicefreaks forums on neutral evil fiends..boy do they have some stuff! i love their idea of netherfiends..the baba yaga..and so forth. Many there don't seem to like Planescape's version of Neutral Evil. Nonetheless...i think Planescape did a lot for the Yugoloths (tho i've never caught on to the general of gehenna ultimately.)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-07, 08:47 PM	Looking at the Yugoloths in MM III, Nycaloth Commanders (enhanced Nycaloth) have a CR of 17 compared to the 13 rating of the Ultroloth. Nycaloths....two ranks below the creatures who are at the top of the non-unique yugoloth chain...can have a significantly higher CR. We can rationalize this one here. The "nycaloth commander" may be physically stronger and more imposing, but it doesn't have the influence or caste-derived power of an arcanaloth or ultroloth. It serves those beings even though it might stand a good chance of being able to rip one of them apart in a purely physical combat. But all we need to do is look back to the lesson that every mezzoloth learns before his apotheosis to dergholoth: physical power does not necessarily equal authority. I'll also point you to the revised Arcanaloth in Dungeon 144 which is much better than the MMII version. Dungeon also had an advanced ultroloth which they have tended to consider a baseline for that fiend, and I'm inclined to agree, though I tend to boost my ultroloths a bit more over the arcanaloths by giving them racial caster or manifester levels. i think whenever a WOTC writer..possibly save james jacobs and erik mona...is told to write yugoloth material...their brains get sucked out by a mind flayer. It has been largely uninspired in 3e (though the Crawling Citadel in the MotP was a really nice addition to the lore). The 'loths in the MM4 showed a lack of basic research during their design however in my opinion; they're not unsalvageable, but they have a lot of problems.
PunkRockBard 03-06-07, 10:22 PM	We can rationalize this one here. The "nycaloth commander" may be physically stronger and more imposing, but it doesn't have the influence or caste-derived power of an arcanaloth or ultroloth. It serves those beings even though it might stand a good chance of being able to rip one of them apart in a purely physical combat. But all we need to do is look back to the lesson that every mezzoloth learns before his apotheosis to dergholoth: physical power does not necessarily equal authority. I'll also point you to the revised Arcanaloth in Dungeon 144 which is much better than the MMII version. Dungeon also had an advanced ultroloth which they have tended to consider a baseline for that fiend, and I'm inclined to agree, though I tend to boost my ultroloths a bit more over the arcanaloths by giving them racial caster or manifester levels. It has been largely uninspired in 3e (though the Crawling Citadel in the MotP was a really nice addition to the lore). The 'loths in the MM4 showed a lack of basic research during their design however in my opinion; they're not unsalvageable, but they have a lot of problems. Yes, it has. If a FC III doesn't happen....perhaps a book on "pure" alignments (LN, CN, NE, NG). Who can say!
Singer_of_the_Song 03-06-07, 10:59 PM	I'll also point you to the revised Arcanaloth in Dungeon 144 which is much better than the MMII version. Dungeon also had an advanced ultroloth which they have tended to consider a baseline for that fiend, and I'm inclined to agree, though I tend to boost my ultroloths a bit more over the arcanaloths by giving them racial caster or manifester levels. It has been largely uninspired in 3e (though the Crawling Citadel in the MotP was a really nice addition to the lore). The 'loths in the MM4 showed a lack of basic research during their design however in my opinion; they're not unsalvageable, but they have a lot of problems. Have they "fixed" any other yugoloths? Which ones are in MMIV? The bit about the Crawling City and the End of Days gives me a chill.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-07, 11:42 PM	Have they "fixed" any other yugoloths? So far no. Which ones are in MMIV? The "Corruptor of Fate", the "Voor" and an advanced version of the latter called a "Dread Lasher". You'll notice that none of them have "loth" anywhere in their name. And the first of them reproduced with its own kind, so it's either a single digit CR dumb as rocks greater yugoloth, or a lesser yugoloth that bucks the entire yugoloth race's scheme of replication, or ... I dunno what to say... *ennui*
Freefall 03-07-07, 02:21 AM	Well, the Nycaloth Commander is an example of just using 3E mechanics. While it might seem odd to have a Nycaloth out-CR an Ultroloth, keep in mind that a Marilith only needs 4 levels of Blackguard to have a higher CR than a Balor, and with enough class levels even a Barbazu can end up with a higher CR than a Pit Fiend. For that matter, a Gelugon with enough extra HD can have a higher CR than a Pit Fiend as well. That's just how the 3E system works for monsters now, and in the case of Outsiders it makes the hierarchies created in past editions somewhat less meaningful (which isn't too big a deal for demons, but seems kind of strange and out-of-place for the Devils). Plus, what Shemeska said.
Naderion 03-08-07, 08:25 AM	I looked up the old Planescape Stats for yugoloths, tanar'ri and baatezu and came to the following CRs for Yugoloths to make them as powerfull compared to demons and devils as they have been: Ultroloth: CR 20 Nycaloth: CR 18 Arcanaloth: CR 17 Yagnoloth: CR 16 Marraenaloth: CR 12 Piscoloth: CR 12 Mezzoloth: CR 10 Hydroloth: CR 9 Dergholoth: CR 8 Canoloth: CR 5 Skeroloth: CR 3 They are in fact more powerfull at averrage than other fiends.
PunkRockBard 03-08-07, 11:30 AM	i wanted to respond a bit more (darn this sinus infection) Yes....we can rationalize it. It is too bad that we even have to rationalize. Reading the descriptors of Ultroloths in 3.5e...i doubt that they gave it the rating due to its "subtle" evil. Should an Ultroloth be as all mighty and strong as a Balor? By no means am i saying that. Yes...Ultroloths should be known more for their secrets and intrique. This being said...i don't think a midlevel adventurer should be able to defeat one. Or a Nycaloth, for that matter. i haven't read the Dungeon stats...i am glad that they took initiative! i have kind of given up on hopes for a FC III.....but maybe the 'loths will get more coverage in some other medium. Lately....i have had my own ideas of fixing the situation. An "Oinos Touched" Ultroloth.....these beings are the ultroloths who gain an invitation to reside in Kihn-Oin. They gain a number of powers doing so.