Need a Bit of Sigil Help- Which Magic Fails? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need a Bit of Sigil Help- Which Magic Fails? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
aushlo
08-11-07, 02:30 PM Okay, so here's my issue. I'm trying to maintain the idea that the City of Doors is generally closed to new pathways. It's traversible by teleport and such within its own confines, sure. My problem is that I'd like to come up with a hard and fast list of spells that don't work in Sigil, and sadly the 2e and 3.5 books don't agree (current rules say normal magic, which contradicts old canon). If you go with the Astral Pathway list in the main set, you get some idea. But then it's implied that Tanar'ri are incapable of Summoning aid in Sigil, which makes sense to me, but if I remember right (no books on me right now), the ability used to be like a Gate spell- as in, an actual temporary pathway. What about Summon spells then? Call Nature's Ally? It's sort of a whole suite of spells and abilities that seems unclear and possibly made useless within city limits. I'd like to take a close look and try to integrate the ideas across edition lines as smoothly as possible.

Anyone come up with a simple and/or elegant way to deal with this stuff? My thoughts:

The Lady may have specifically made it clear through past action that the Fiends responsible will be annihilated if they call in backup. They're mad, not stupid. They obey out of respect/fear.

Perhaps other types of Summoning work with a hard-to-obtain Spell Key within the city.

On a side note, I'd like to introduce the idea of Spell Crystals for Summining, I always liked that goofy idea myself.
Bob the Efreet
08-11-07, 03:59 PM My problem is that I'd like to come up with a hard and fast list of spells that don't work in Sigil, and sadly the 2e and 3.5 books don't agree (current rules say normal magic, which contradicts old canon).

Nothing may enter or leave the City of Doors except through one of the Lady's portals. Any spell that would subvert that rule fails. As for your example, any summon monster or summon nature's ally spell (or other summoning ability) will, even temporarily, pull a creature from another plane into Sigil, and then send it back at the end of the duration. Thus, such effects do not work.

You could make a possible exception if you're calling to yourself another creature that's already in the Cage.
Deacon Liadon
08-11-07, 08:26 PM Summoning is, generally, impossible in Sigil though I have read some house rules that allow you to summon inside Sigil as long as the creature you're summoning is already present within Sigil (This goes a long way to explaining why neither of Sigil's resident Arcanoloths never use their Summon Yugoloth ability). The same applies to calling.

Since Sigil is (probably) on the Outlands, all spells that use the ethereal are unusable since you can't access the ethereal from the outer planes.

Certain spells that access the Astral are also banned I believe and, if I recall correctly, sending doesn't necessarily work if the sender or recipient is inside Sigil.
ripvanwormer
08-11-07, 10:50 PM Certain spells that access the Astral are also banned I believe and, if I recall correctly, sending doesn't necessarily work if the sender or recipient is inside Sigil.

There's no reason sending wouldn't work.

Personally, I'd allow most spells that use the Astral, the Plane of Shadow or the Ethereal Plane, as long as the caster doesn't actually travel outside the city. I'd assume Sigil had its own versions of the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow that don't connect to the main ones. For example, I think a shadowdancer should be able to use shadow jump within the city.
Deacon Liadon
08-12-07, 09:05 AM There's no reason sending wouldn't work.

My mistake, I think that one was one of many house rules I've read somewhere.
aushlo
08-12-07, 06:31 PM Perhaps the best solution here is a local spell key for summoning. One that is assumed to draw creatures from the plane or demi-plane on which you stand to your present location. Perhaps in Sigil, you could for example whisk an Osyluth away from his poker night, but it's a problem because when he's returned to his normal environs he'll know who called him and come looking for payback.

Another thought would be to create a feat, maybe a progression from City Spell, where you call into being a strange creature composed of bits of Sigil animated by scraps of intellect/spirit that acts like the creature you need but is sort of a composite construct. It's a highly magical place after all, not one that operates under normal rules at all. Sort of a new, hot commodity knowledge that the Lady may not like much.

That could be an interesting plot point. I mean, can a spirit pass into its own afterlife destination from Sigil? If not, where does it go? Does its energy fuel the Lady, or the city itself? Are Dabus the default fate of souls, the petitioner spirits of those who die within its confines? I think I'm liking where this could go.
Bedlamtom
08-12-07, 09:00 PM What about a paladin's warhorse?
Deacon Liadon
08-12-07, 09:05 PM What about a paladin's warhorse?

Still can't be summoned. Even if you have a pokeball to do it with.
foxtail
08-13-07, 01:23 PM I could imagine a hidden menagerie of monsters kept within the underground of Sigil, where fiendish keepers rent out spell keys for the priviledge of using their stock in one's summon monster spells.
aushlo
08-13-07, 04:41 PM I could imagine a hidden menagerie of monsters kept within the underground of Sigil, where fiendish keepers rent out spell keys for the priviledge of using their stock in one's summon monster spells.

That is actually a pretty brilliant idea. I think I may just run with it. I'm still amused as well at anyone stupid enough to summon an intelligent evil outsider biting off quite a bit more than they can chew. Actually, that would explain fiends' reluctance too- you probably know the guy you're going to send to get gutted by the paladin, and he knows you. So best not to, or he'll repay the favor. Hmmm. And since the demon's actually whipped away in whole to your location, maybe they could actually be killed if killed in your service. Since no one wants that rep, they just don't do it.
aushlo
08-13-07, 04:46 PM There's no reason sending wouldn't work.

Personally, I'd allow most spells that use the Astral, the Plane of Shadow or the Ethereal Plane, as long as the caster doesn't actually travel outside the city. I'd assume Sigil had its own versions of the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow that don't connect to the main ones. For example, I think a shadowdancer should be able to use shadow jump within the city.

It's sometimes hard crunch-wise to make sense of the Planescape setting, as it's all so vague and, once an idea is established in the main books, another writer throws what you thought you knew out the window (looking crossly at Harbinger House, in which both the Lady and potentially two Powers put in appearances. Come to think of it, how many of the modules DIDN'T have some close call with a power? Not that it's not kinda cool).
aushlo
08-13-07, 04:51 PM Summoning is, generally, impossible in Sigil though I have read some house rules that allow you to summon inside Sigil as long as the creature you're summoning is already present within Sigil (This goes a long way to explaining why neither of Sigil's resident Arcanoloths never use their Summon Yugoloth ability). The same applies to calling.

You could make a possible exception if you're calling to yourself another creature that's already in the Cage.

I think this is the way to go, maybe. There may be reckless summoners amongst the intelligent races who don't know or don't care it works this way, but I'd imagine they would have VERY short lifespans once word got out. On the other hand, sticking to fiendish animals and such wouldn't make too many waves.
Bob the Efreet
08-13-07, 10:25 PM I mean, can a spirit pass into its own afterlife destination from Sigil? If not, where does it go?

One possibility is the soul cage (http://mimir.net/musee/soulcage.html).
aushlo
08-13-07, 10:56 PM One possibility is the soul cage (http://mimir.net/musee/soulcage.html).

Good stuff, that. Been to the site before, but not read that. It never ceases to amaze me how in thinking about some random bit of Planescape wierdness, I often accidentally stumble across an interesting line of speculation that had never occurred before. What a great freaking setting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aushlo 08-11-07, 02:30 PM	Okay, so here's my issue. I'm trying to maintain the idea that the City of Doors is generally closed to new pathways. It's traversible by teleport and such within its own confines, sure. My problem is that I'd like to come up with a hard and fast list of spells that don't work in Sigil, and sadly the 2e and 3.5 books don't agree (current rules say normal magic, which contradicts old canon). If you go with the Astral Pathway list in the main set, you get some idea. But then it's implied that Tanar'ri are incapable of Summoning aid in Sigil, which makes sense to me, but if I remember right (no books on me right now), the ability used to be like a Gate spell- as in, an actual temporary pathway. What about Summon spells then? Call Nature's Ally? It's sort of a whole suite of spells and abilities that seems unclear and possibly made useless within city limits. I'd like to take a close look and try to integrate the ideas across edition lines as smoothly as possible. Anyone come up with a simple and/or elegant way to deal with this stuff? My thoughts: The Lady may have specifically made it clear through past action that the Fiends responsible will be annihilated if they call in backup. They're mad, not stupid. They obey out of respect/fear. Perhaps other types of Summoning work with a hard-to-obtain Spell Key within the city. On a side note, I'd like to introduce the idea of Spell Crystals for Summining, I always liked that goofy idea myself.
Bob the Efreet 08-11-07, 03:59 PM	My problem is that I'd like to come up with a hard and fast list of spells that don't work in Sigil, and sadly the 2e and 3.5 books don't agree (current rules say normal magic, which contradicts old canon). Nothing may enter or leave the City of Doors except through one of the Lady's portals. Any spell that would subvert that rule fails. As for your example, any summon monster or summon nature's ally spell (or other summoning ability) will, even temporarily, pull a creature from another plane into Sigil, and then send it back at the end of the duration. Thus, such effects do not work. You could make a possible exception if you're calling to yourself another creature that's already in the Cage.
Deacon Liadon 08-11-07, 08:26 PM	Summoning is, generally, impossible in Sigil though I have read some house rules that allow you to summon inside Sigil as long as the creature you're summoning is already present within Sigil (This goes a long way to explaining why neither of Sigil's resident Arcanoloths never use their Summon Yugoloth ability). The same applies to calling. Since Sigil is (probably) on the Outlands, all spells that use the ethereal are unusable since you can't access the ethereal from the outer planes. Certain spells that access the Astral are also banned I believe and, if I recall correctly, sending doesn't necessarily work if the sender or recipient is inside Sigil.
ripvanwormer 08-11-07, 10:50 PM	Certain spells that access the Astral are also banned I believe and, if I recall correctly, sending doesn't necessarily work if the sender or recipient is inside Sigil. There's no reason sending wouldn't work. Personally, I'd allow most spells that use the Astral, the Plane of Shadow or the Ethereal Plane, as long as the caster doesn't actually travel outside the city. I'd assume Sigil had its own versions of the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow that don't connect to the main ones. For example, I think a shadowdancer should be able to use shadow jump within the city.
Deacon Liadon 08-12-07, 09:05 AM	There's no reason sending wouldn't work. My mistake, I think that one was one of many house rules I've read somewhere.
aushlo 08-12-07, 06:31 PM	Perhaps the best solution here is a local spell key for summoning. One that is assumed to draw creatures from the plane or demi-plane on which you stand to your present location. Perhaps in Sigil, you could for example whisk an Osyluth away from his poker night, but it's a problem because when he's returned to his normal environs he'll know who called him and come looking for payback. Another thought would be to create a feat, maybe a progression from City Spell, where you call into being a strange creature composed of bits of Sigil animated by scraps of intellect/spirit that acts like the creature you need but is sort of a composite construct. It's a highly magical place after all, not one that operates under normal rules at all. Sort of a new, hot commodity knowledge that the Lady may not like much. That could be an interesting plot point. I mean, can a spirit pass into its own afterlife destination from Sigil? If not, where does it go? Does its energy fuel the Lady, or the city itself? Are Dabus the default fate of souls, the petitioner spirits of those who die within its confines? I think I'm liking where this could go.
Bedlamtom 08-12-07, 09:00 PM	What about a paladin's warhorse?
Deacon Liadon 08-12-07, 09:05 PM	What about a paladin's warhorse? Still can't be summoned. Even if you have a pokeball to do it with.
foxtail 08-13-07, 01:23 PM	I could imagine a hidden menagerie of monsters kept within the underground of Sigil, where fiendish keepers rent out spell keys for the priviledge of using their stock in one's summon monster spells.
aushlo 08-13-07, 04:41 PM	I could imagine a hidden menagerie of monsters kept within the underground of Sigil, where fiendish keepers rent out spell keys for the priviledge of using their stock in one's summon monster spells. That is actually a pretty brilliant idea. I think I may just run with it. I'm still amused as well at anyone stupid enough to summon an intelligent evil outsider biting off quite a bit more than they can chew. Actually, that would explain fiends' reluctance too- you probably know the guy you're going to send to get gutted by the paladin, and he knows you. So best not to, or he'll repay the favor. Hmmm. And since the demon's actually whipped away in whole to your location, maybe they could actually be killed if killed in your service. Since no one wants that rep, they just don't do it.
aushlo 08-13-07, 04:46 PM	There's no reason sending wouldn't work. Personally, I'd allow most spells that use the Astral, the Plane of Shadow or the Ethereal Plane, as long as the caster doesn't actually travel outside the city. I'd assume Sigil had its own versions of the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow that don't connect to the main ones. For example, I think a shadowdancer should be able to use shadow jump within the city. It's sometimes hard crunch-wise to make sense of the Planescape setting, as it's all so vague and, once an idea is established in the main books, another writer throws what you thought you knew out the window (looking crossly at Harbinger House, in which both the Lady and potentially two Powers put in appearances. Come to think of it, how many of the modules DIDN'T have some close call with a power? Not that it's not kinda cool).
aushlo 08-13-07, 04:51 PM	Summoning is, generally, impossible in Sigil though I have read some house rules that allow you to summon inside Sigil as long as the creature you're summoning is already present within Sigil (This goes a long way to explaining why neither of Sigil's resident Arcanoloths never use their Summon Yugoloth ability). The same applies to calling. You could make a possible exception if you're calling to yourself another creature that's already in the Cage. I think this is the way to go, maybe. There may be reckless summoners amongst the intelligent races who don't know or don't care it works this way, but I'd imagine they would have VERY short lifespans once word got out. On the other hand, sticking to fiendish animals and such wouldn't make too many waves.
Bob the Efreet 08-13-07, 10:25 PM	I mean, can a spirit pass into its own afterlife destination from Sigil? If not, where does it go? One possibility is the soul cage (http://mimir.net/musee/soulcage.html).
aushlo 08-13-07, 10:56 PM	One possibility is the soul cage (http://mimir.net/musee/soulcage.html). Good stuff, that. Been to the site before, but not read that. It never ceases to amaze me how in thinking about some random bit of Planescape wierdness, I often accidentally stumble across an interesting line of speculation that had never occurred before. What a great freaking setting.