Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anti_Pseudonym 03-21-07, 04:10 AM	I've been in a bit of a slump since the beginning of our campaign. The character I play is a chaotic-good Warlock 8/ Enlightened Spirit 4. Character's were made at level 10. Problem: I was given the impression that Hecate (Greek goddess of magic) was a true neutral deity. It turns out that in our campaign she is Lawful Evil. I tried to ask my DM to let me change faiths in lieu of this information but he's decided to make things interesting for roleplaying purposes by not letting me make the change automatically. I didn't find out about her actual alignment until 2 game sessions in. I've interacted with Hecate in-game and she seems intent on using me as some sort of "dark knight" although I get no in game benefits other than her twisted favor/attentions. I'm having trouble negotiating my character's alignment and "my" goddess's will. I've tried switching faiths, but supposedly, other gods need her permission before they can take me as their own. How can I be rid of her? I'm thinking it needs to be done through roleplaying. The only 6 Greek gods in my campaign are Zeus, Apollo, Hecate, Athena, Poseidon, and Colmanus (home-brew uber creator God with Chaotic-Neutral alignment). I'm not opposed to the possibility of having no god as my patron but I need to do this via roleplaying. I do need some help with figuring a way out of the mess I'm in so any tips would be appreciated. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as, "I'm just not into you anymore." Thanks much!
malykoth 03-22-07, 07:47 AM	Ask your DM if there is something like an oracle or soothsayer around...Greek heroes were always asking such folks about the will of the gods and how to placate (or even defeat) them. This makes sense in a role-play angle, and also puts the chore of exactly what to do in the hands of the DM (which might not be a good thing, of course). Or...you could act like a good little servant, but be intentionally incompetent and clumsy in your attempts to do Hecate's bidding. Eventually, she might grow frustrated with you and let you go...not that having a god frustrated with you is necessarily a good thing, either.
Doom_Linnorm 03-22-07, 08:01 AM	I would suggest play through it as a good little servant, however over the course of several tasks realize that the tasks she sets you are against your nature and begin to question your deity, eventualy casting of your faith, possibly finding solace in a new one from a deity that takes pity on you or something.
Orchomenos 03-23-07, 10:46 AM	I would suggest play through it as a good little servant, however over the course of several tasks realize that the tasks she sets you are against your nature and begin to question your deity, eventualy casting of your faith, possibly finding solace in a new one from a deity that takes pity on you or something. Ahem... I think it's exactly what happened in the first few sessions he actually played. The trouble is Hecate won't let other deity accept the OP's PC, even not simply let him quit... It makes me think about Hotel California: You can check out anytime your life But you can never leave! How powerful is Hecate in your game? Zeus is probably stronger than her, so he would probably be able to tell her to shut it up and leave you alone. Problems are the Mythological Zeus was very capricious, and not rarely doing things for someone else; in your campaign, he could even be more evil than Hecate! You could perhaps seek In Game a deity that would be acually stronger than Hecate and benevolent enough to fight for you. On the other hand, what are the drawbacks of having a LE god as deity? Does she force you to commit evil acts? Does she give you a bad reputation? Will your afterlife be an endless torture? Also, the DM may have tricked you into having your character worship a LE deity. But how did your character came up worshipping Hecate, not knowing she is Lawful Evil? Is she a trickery deity searching innocent mortals to worship her? Are you from a village which main cult is to Hecate?
malykoth 03-23-07, 12:28 PM	...have you tried telling your DM out of game not to be a douche and that he should just let you play the character concept you want without being forced to worship a goddess you don't like? It is supposed to be a game for everyone to enjoy, after all...if you aren't enjoying it, then what's in it for you?
Praedoran 03-23-07, 12:35 PM	I'm all for the dumping her. Best ones: "I don't love you anymore." This bomb works 99% of the time. "It's not you, It's me." "I'll call you." "I've found someone else." "I'm just not compatible with you." "I just don't see a future between us." "Sorry, but bros over hos." and "You're just too darn ugly." are also good alternatives. Seriously though, as someone pointed out, Zeus could help out. Mythology has shown us that other gods of equal status will not offer you suitable protection. Otherwise though, keep on a path towards good, get your alignment changed, and then you'll be two steps away from her, thus making you incompatible. She'll eventually see that there's other more willing subjects out there to play with and it's not worth it trying to champion a Dark Knight who's actually a good person. And finally: The Ghostrider solution. Champion her until you receive her gifts and turn on her becoming a awesome dark hero.
Calmar 03-23-07, 01:48 PM	Are you troubled by deities? Are you tired of being pushed around by gods? Join the union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athar)! ;) :D
Anti_Pseudonym 03-23-07, 06:25 PM	Generally speaking (with Hecate being the only exception so far), the gods/goddesses in the campaign I'm in have deities with stats same as those in the Deities and Demigods sourcebook. Zeus is neutral-good, however, dealing with him is very uncertain, and despite his alignment, I'm not confident that he'd simply stand up for me with no drawbacks. Zeus, after Colmanus, is the most powerful deity from the pantheon that humans in my campaign worship. In our campaign Hecate's portfolio includes civilization, magic, evil, and destruction. Thus far, she has strong-armed me into providing her with one service that I regret. Elves were being manipulated by some unknown factor into coming to conflict with forces of my city (Hecate is very interested in protecting this city). Before I knew, or could find out, any background info, Hecate's clergy bade me to take a missive to some orc encampment. I needed to go there as a part of my greater mission anyway so I had no excuse other than "I don't want to." That would not have gone well considering the clergymen giving me the missive were epic lawful-evil characters. As a result of the missive, I later found out that orc armies were going to be utilized to confront the elves and stop them from interfering with my city's forces. The elves would have been slaughtered because of me. Their numbers wouldn't be able to stop the orcs (my DM made sure I knew this latter part). Speaking with Athena's clergy (Athena = lawful-good) I was able to somehow buy myself a week before the orc hordes made a move. Athena and Hecate work together to protect this city so although Athena has no problem using the orcs, she does want to give me time to fix this mess peaceably. Point being, there are definite drawbacks to having a tyrannical goddess as your patron. I spoke to the DM about not liking my ties with Hecate and that it goes against my character's theme as an Enlightened Spirit. He told me that I can't simply switch god's at this point and besides, he said he likes to put me in morally compromising situations because of the roleplaying opportunity it creates. To his credit, I do get the XP to reflect on this difficulty, and although I get no stat or power benefits for being her peon, her clergy (as a lawful faith) does give me better-than-merchant deals on items I want to buy and sell. True that I then have to give 10% of all profits as a tithe but I still do end up saving gold in the end. Finally, I had the chance to speak with Hecate herself. I told her I am not interested in her and I wish to have nothing to do with her. I renounced her 3 times (I read in a Forgotten Realms novel that you can get rid of a god as your patron by renouncing it 3 times) but that still had no effect. She insisted I'm hers. So far, I'm simply not going to her temples, not interacting with her clergy, and avoiding the gods in general. They've been nothing but trouble and frustration for me so far. Hecate has VERY powerful clergy (lvl 22-27 that I've seen so far) so I'm not sure what I'll do if they come calling. But attacking them outright if they try to strong-arm me again is not something I'm in any position to consider before my character is epic. At this point I want nothing to do with the gods. It seems like switching from one to the other is simply trading one yoke for another. Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'll ask my DM about speaking to the Oracle at Delphi.
Reign_of_Ice 03-24-07, 03:53 AM	Yep sounds like a Greek hero to me...
Patrick Draken-Korin 03-26-07, 09:49 AM	Yeah... Reign_of_Ice Is Right. Are any of the other PC dealing with this much strife? Cause if this were an epic poem, I'd expect your character to be the main one to suffer trails and tribulations so far. Suggestions? Check out an oracle, as offered by malykoth. Study the fine art of being actively incompetent (without actually attacking Hecate's plans directly). Your CG right? For a LE goddess? Go mad. No seriously, let your character have a nervous breakdown, and go with it. You might not last very long, I'll admit, but it might be fun to see how the goddess *tries* to deal with that. Oh, and you could refuse any automatic healing by Hecate or her clergy, due to the fact that that very conflict caused the madness in the first place. Just remember a CG madman would remain CG, he'd just be unstable, maybe talk to birds (with imagined responses; let your DM hear half the conversation!), and probably wouldn't be able to follow orders correctly, unless they followed his new logic. Sorry that my best advice is to let your character slip of into insanity, but really, it's better than suicide, right?
GoriceXII 03-27-07, 10:29 AM	This could be good character/story development if you are interested. In for instance a lot of Michael Moorcock's stories the hero may not like or even trust the gods he serves and yet finds he has no choice. You could take this to be an ongoing struggle that your character faces. I'd consider talking about that with your DM. It makes sense that he doesn't want to change the context of his game, so if you might be cool with this idea it could be a personal story arc you could ultimately search in the campaign you are in for a solution to.
Janusunaj 03-27-07, 04:53 PM	Perhaps Hecate can get rid of you herself. If Hecate uses the character to retrieve an epic artifact, then maybe she will be discovered by Zeus and Colmanus if the item in question is something they don't want her to even touch.
Anti_Pseudonym 04-07-07, 03:56 AM	Thanks to everyone who has posted thus far. I've taken most everything mentioned into account. As suggested, I asked the DM if he'd be interested in making my relationship with Hecate, and my efforts to end it, a personal story arc. To that end, I've suggested asking the Oracle at Delphi (in other words the DM) how to proceed. There were 2 avenues that I could think of with regards to solving my predicament with Hecate (the first being more personal, and the second possibly involving other players if the DM chose): (1) As suggested, I try to find out how I can placate the gods and free myself of them completely or (2) I can try to find a way for "good magic" and "good magic users" to be well regarded by Hecate. Presently, I feel that those who practice magic and are evil in nature or intent have a benefit in my campaign due to the inclinations of Hecate. Balancing out her perspective (if even possible) may be the grounds for an amazing objective. The Oracle's response was that I need to meet Colmanus or Zeus "to get what I want." The DM was intentionally vague and the Oracle would not give any more specifics other than I need to use all 3 wishes at once from a Ring of Three Wishes to be granted this particular audience. Concerning a plea for insanity, while it is reasonable that my character is highly stressed and anxious because of Hecate, losing his mind would be a stretch for this character concept. He is very strong willed. The DM would likely ask for some kind of will save and my character would undoubtedly succeed (I wouldn't be able to automatically fail). Unfortunately, simply acting insane will not fool a goddess like Hecate either. As far as I can tell, my character is the only one who faces this much personal conflict. I imagine that his storyline development (which was partially facilitated by the DM) has much to do with this. Things fell into place as we played with no prior planning. Regardless of the emphasis that the DM is placing in my character's flavor, I don't feel he is the main character in this campaign. The way things are designed, all characters are equally important to its completion. On a side not, the DM has thrown a new curve-ball at me. Hecate did something that was against her alignment. I pointed it out b/c what she was doing would hurt much of the group. As a reward (more punishment I feel) Colmanus appeared with Hecate in rags. For trying to do something that went against her ethos (and his greater plans I think), she was condemned to be my slave for the next 3 game sessions. For me to be rid of her (as my character concept would be against the strictures of slavery), I'd have to do one of three things: (1) either rape her (against my alignment and not good for my character's health considering she'd be released as a goddess and very angry with me), (2) beat her to a pulp (again no for the same reason as option 1), or rip her heart out in which case I'd ascend to divinity and become chaotic evil. Colmanus knew that none of these options would be palatable so he's simply toying with me. I'm stuck with Hecate as my slave and I'm trying to figure out how to turn this situation into a favorable one. So far I'm having her make life easier for the elves she was trying to exterminate. The DM fully understands my good intentions and isn't playing with words. Also, the Oracle was no help with this matter. It simply pointed me to Zeus or Colmanus again. Finally, even though Hecate is now my slave, she says she can't speak for herself as a goddess, only as my slave. Therefore, any oaths I force her to make will be during the time she is a slave and will not extend to when she once again ascends to divinity. Again suggestions are continuously welcome. Although it seems like the DM has it in for me, the storyline is enjoyable. He's simply asking for innovation from the players and hasn't actually given us a linear storyline. The campaign is truly organic and largely based on what we choose to do. Thanks again!
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-07-07, 06:02 PM	Well, sorry that my slipping into insanity idea wouldn't work. You might want to keep it in reserve if any especially stressful event occurs, but I'm guessing only something massively bad woulds count (like finding out that Hecate's had your family brutally murdered after she stops being your slave, or another such problem). Oh well. Okay, with Hecate as your slave, are you allowed to ask for advice, or do you get answers similar to the Oracle of Delphi response? If you can actually get a straight answer, or better yet polite conversation (gods willing :D ), see if you can lead her around to at least understand your point of view, if not agree. If Hecate already gets the whole picture, you might at least learn something of use (filling in more of the picture for your PC). Hmm. Just thought of something. In the Forgotten Realms, Tyche (you know, greek luck goddess) was destroyed, but split into Tymora (lady luck) and Beshaba (maiden of misfortune). You might be able to find some way for such a split to happen, though such an effort (at least if overt) would probably go against your alignment. Hmm. Another (only slightly plausible) plan, if your PC could seduce Hecate as a willing participant, but convince her to complain (with a safety word/phrase, of course), you might be able to free her quickly (with gratitude even). Now I'm not claiming this to be a good plan, really just a possibility. If you try this, and I can't actually recommend it (seeing too many ways it could go wrong), be very careful or else you might lose out horribly.
Janusunaj 04-07-07, 09:41 PM	You could, ask the GM, if you could "make love" with her instead of rape her, and then, Explain to her that you will never serve her in an evil deed, or even associate with her anymore for even good things. You could role play this as a romance sort of thing, and see if that gets you anywhere.
Orchomenos 04-10-07, 10:56 AM	So far, I'm simply not going to her temples, not interacting with her clergy, and avoiding the gods in general. They've been nothing but trouble and frustration for me so far. Hecate has VERY powerful clergy (lvl 22-27 that I've seen so far) so I'm not sure what I'll do if they come calling. But attacking them outright if they try to strong-arm me again is not something I'm in any position to consider before my character is epic. That makes me wonder... why do they need a CG "looser" (from their point of view) to deliver a missive to a bunch of orcs if they could technically teleport there and return for supper? And why do they need a bunch of orcs to deal with a few unruly elves if they can conjure a mega cloud of fire above their pointed ears? Anyway. Janusunaj add a wonderful idea on what to do with Hecate. After that, she will either respect you and free you, or despise you for your weakness and find a better servant. Either side, you should win. If you don't, that's because she once again act out of alignment.
Anti_Pseudonym 04-12-07, 12:24 AM	Initially, lovemaking seemed like a good idea. But Colmanus (a.k.a. the DM) specifically stated rape. I don't want to negotiate with Colmanus b/c based in previous encounters, engaging in dialog with deities only led to further misery for my character. Besides, I already told Hecate I wish to have nothing to do with her and she insisted that it wasn't so easy to escape her attentions. As for acting out of alignment, Hecate's (Lawful-Evil/ultimate tyrant) would make it completely appropriate for her to try maintaining control over me as much as possible. While things would be simpler if she contracted quests to those who would be more inclined to act the part of toady, forcing me to do it is a clear personification of her alignment (meaning the true tyrant subjugating the true free spirit). I imagine her clergy don't simply vaporize the elves b/c a display of such power might make civilians of the city or even governments of other City-States in Greece uncomfortable. I'm not certain as to why Hecate's clergy contract orcs instead of doing something themselves, but either way it falls under the DM's purview. So if I want to find out, I'd have to go digging. I'm not too enthusiastic about sticking my nose in their business at this point. On a separate note, I was granted my audience with Colmanus. The DM wanted to throw me in some other moral dilemma through Colmanus so when he appeared, I used the opportunity to speak with him about my deity troubles. The DM said I can simply choose to ignore what is asked of me. I'm not sure if this means that I won't have someone chasing me if I just ignore a deity's mandate, but it's a start.
Andorxor 04-12-07, 02:03 AM	You could try to get Hecate to change aligment while she is your slave,but than Colmanus would be proable mad at you.When he makes a goodness a slave for one act against her aligment,imagine what he would do when she changes her aligment.
cruxvader 04-12-07, 02:45 AM	make love to her and sing her the song 'the power of love' and then go back to the futrue