needs improvement [Archive] - Wizards Community

needs improvement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerecros
08-21-07, 01:39 PM me: "Outsiders have a weird population problems.
They are born of the plane and simply appear, some reproduce (formians) some infect (slaad), some transform humanoid souls while other's are apparently infinite in number (demons). Now do any or all of them die when killed? Do they have to be killed ony on their home planes like in previous editions? Which is stupid because one outsider race can invade another plane and conqure it because the just return to their home plane when they die, but the natives on the plane die for good. How do their numbers maintain any sort of stability? Why hasn't an outsider race already conqured everything?"

Shemeska the Marauder: "Answers, or various reasons to rationalize those issues already exist actually."

That's all fine and dandy for someone who has actually read all the source over the past 30 ought years, but for anyone relatively new to the game with limited resorces these answers are a little more scarce. I would like all important answers to be found in the core material. And a creature's abilities more inherently tied to it's type.

Creatures of planar essence that are fixed in number and can't be killed (because they come back) should have an all together different type than planar creatures born of humanoid souls, should have an altogether different type than creatures of planar origin with relatively mundane methods of reproduction.

I think that one of the few things the great wheel done right was the use of gods drawn directly from actual mythology, and should be done even more directly so. It makes things easier to simply have a norse/Manichaean/greko roman/shamanistic system by having them all part of the default cosmology and allowing the DM to just ignore the parts they don't need.

Something though that should be completely and utterly dropped from the default cosmology is the blood war. I like the idea of planar warfare, but there is far too much relience on this plot device. Creatures are being stated with no other purpose but to attack other planes while neglecting to give them a purpose on their own.

*Note to Wizos, This topic point's out flaws in the currect edition and makes no reference to the 4th. Though while we're on the topic, there needs to be a planes section in the 4th ed board.
Shemeska the Marauder
08-21-07, 08:39 PM That's all fine and dandy for someone who has actually read all the source over the past 30 ought years, but for anyone relatively new to the game with limited resorces these answers are a little more scarce.

I'm relatively new to D&D myself actually. FWIW, I didn't play the game till around late 2001 or 2002 or so.

Creatures of planar essence that are fixed in number and can't be killed (because they come back) should have an all together different type than planar creatures born of humanoid souls, should have an altogether different type than creatures of planar origin with relatively mundane methods of reproduction.

Those methods of reproduction aren't mutually exclusive though. Probably the best thing to do would be to have a seperate type for those planar natives who represent their native plane and alignment on a fundamental level be the actual outsider type. A human born on the Outlands and living there is nominally native to that plane, but he doesn't represent its ideals like say, a Rilmani might. I'd suggest a division between "outsiders" of the outer planes and the inner planes though, because genie-kin have effectively nothing in common with fiends and celestials, though 3e gave them the same type.

I think that one of the few things the great wheel done right was the use of gods drawn directly from actual mythology, and should be done even more directly so. It makes things easier to simply have a norse/Manichaean/greko roman/shamanistic system by having them all part of the default cosmology and allowing the DM to just ignore the parts they don't need.

I agree with you totally on this. Initially in 3e there were some pretty heavy creative restrictions on mentioning other gods beyond the limited selection of "core" gods, even when it made perfect sense to reference them. Early 3e gave us Loki alluded to as "The Trickster", the Titans of Greek Myth tiptoed around in the description of Carceri, and Hades of the Olympian pantheon slipped in under the radar. Once those restrictions were lifted or ignored however in late 3.x, we had open inclusion of the Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, Vedic, Norse, Faerunian, Krynnish, and Greyhawk pantheons in a common cosmology. I'd love to see that trend continue.

Something though that should be completely and utterly dropped from the default cosmology is the blood war. I like the idea of planar warfare, but there is far too much relience on this plot device. Creatures are being stated with no other purpose but to attack other planes while neglecting to give them a purpose on their own.

I don't see how the stats are even relevant though. 3.5 stats at face value make it rather difficult on the fiends in the Blood War to actually harm one another at times, something that doesn't fit with the history and flavor behind one of the primary moving factors on the planes. The Blood War involves virtually every plane, because they all have an interest in the outcome, be it selfish, enlightened self-interest, self-preservation, or whatever else. It's a massive pie with dozens of fingers poking into it, and gives gobs of plot hooks even just on the surface.
Naderion
08-22-07, 06:56 AM I think this is a thing that really depends heavily on the given campaign setting. What makes sense in one may not be fun in another.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerecros 08-21-07, 01:39 PM	me: "Outsiders have a weird population problems. They are born of the plane and simply appear, some reproduce (formians) some infect (slaad), some transform humanoid souls while other's are apparently infinite in number (demons). Now do any or all of them die when killed? Do they have to be killed ony on their home planes like in previous editions? Which is stupid because one outsider race can invade another plane and conqure it because the just return to their home plane when they die, but the natives on the plane die for good. How do their numbers maintain any sort of stability? Why hasn't an outsider race already conqured everything?" Shemeska the Marauder: "Answers, or various reasons to rationalize those issues already exist actually." That's all fine and dandy for someone who has actually read all the source over the past 30 ought years, but for anyone relatively new to the game with limited resorces these answers are a little more scarce. I would like all important answers to be found in the core material. And a creature's abilities more inherently tied to it's type. Creatures of planar essence that are fixed in number and can't be killed (because they come back) should have an all together different type than planar creatures born of humanoid souls, should have an altogether different type than creatures of planar origin with relatively mundane methods of reproduction. I think that one of the few things the great wheel done right was the use of gods drawn directly from actual mythology, and should be done even more directly so. It makes things easier to simply have a norse/Manichaean/greko roman/shamanistic system by having them all part of the default cosmology and allowing the DM to just ignore the parts they don't need. Something though that should be completely and utterly dropped from the default cosmology is the blood war. I like the idea of planar warfare, but there is far too much relience on this plot device. Creatures are being stated with no other purpose but to attack other planes while neglecting to give them a purpose on their own. *Note to Wizos, This topic point's out flaws in the currect edition and makes no reference to the 4th. Though while we're on the topic, there needs to be a planes section in the 4th ed board.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-21-07, 08:39 PM	That's all fine and dandy for someone who has actually read all the source over the past 30 ought years, but for anyone relatively new to the game with limited resorces these answers are a little more scarce. I'm relatively new to D&D myself actually. FWIW, I didn't play the game till around late 2001 or 2002 or so. Creatures of planar essence that are fixed in number and can't be killed (because they come back) should have an all together different type than planar creatures born of humanoid souls, should have an altogether different type than creatures of planar origin with relatively mundane methods of reproduction. Those methods of reproduction aren't mutually exclusive though. Probably the best thing to do would be to have a seperate type for those planar natives who represent their native plane and alignment on a fundamental level be the actual outsider type. A human born on the Outlands and living there is nominally native to that plane, but he doesn't represent its ideals like say, a Rilmani might. I'd suggest a division between "outsiders" of the outer planes and the inner planes though, because genie-kin have effectively nothing in common with fiends and celestials, though 3e gave them the same type. I think that one of the few things the great wheel done right was the use of gods drawn directly from actual mythology, and should be done even more directly so. It makes things easier to simply have a norse/Manichaean/greko roman/shamanistic system by having them all part of the default cosmology and allowing the DM to just ignore the parts they don't need. I agree with you totally on this. Initially in 3e there were some pretty heavy creative restrictions on mentioning other gods beyond the limited selection of "core" gods, even when it made perfect sense to reference them. Early 3e gave us Loki alluded to as "The Trickster", the Titans of Greek Myth tiptoed around in the description of Carceri, and Hades of the Olympian pantheon slipped in under the radar. Once those restrictions were lifted or ignored however in late 3.x, we had open inclusion of the Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, Vedic, Norse, Faerunian, Krynnish, and Greyhawk pantheons in a common cosmology. I'd love to see that trend continue. Something though that should be completely and utterly dropped from the default cosmology is the blood war. I like the idea of planar warfare, but there is far too much relience on this plot device. Creatures are being stated with no other purpose but to attack other planes while neglecting to give them a purpose on their own. I don't see how the stats are even relevant though. 3.5 stats at face value make it rather difficult on the fiends in the Blood War to actually harm one another at times, something that doesn't fit with the history and flavor behind one of the primary moving factors on the planes. The Blood War involves virtually every plane, because they all have an interest in the outcome, be it selfish, enlightened self-interest, self-preservation, or whatever else. It's a massive pie with dozens of fingers poking into it, and gives gobs of plot hooks even just on the surface.
Naderion 08-22-07, 06:56 AM	I think this is a thing that really depends heavily on the given campaign setting. What makes sense in one may not be fun in another.