Not enough love for transitive planes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Not enough love for transitive planes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Avenger314
09-05-07, 03:03 PM Hey all,

I suppose this post is a combination rant/essay/question.

There are (according to 3.0/3.5 rules) a few different types of planes: Material, transitive, inner, outer, variant, and demiplanes. My own personal opinion is that the most unique, richly described, fascinating, and best concepts are the transitive planes. Especially the variant transitive planes such as the Plane of Mirrors. (Again, just a personal opinion).

I’ve noticed something though: The transitive planes themselves are largely irrelevant as a means of planar travel. There are some circumstances where you want to stay on a transitive lane for a bit, such as ethereal jaunt. For the most part, though, you never really spend any time on a transitive plane on the path from the Material Plane to (for example) the elemental plane of Fire or the 9 Hells. It’s as if these transitive planes are well-designed, laid out meticulously, and the writers explain exactly how they relate in planar cosmology. But then they follow up by saying “But don’t worry about it. Because as long as the astral plane is online, you never have to visit a transitive plane. Just cast plane shift and you can go to any plane in the multiverse. No worries!”

I’m wondering if anyone else sees it this way. I guess I feel like if all that effort went into creating the transitive planes, planar travelers should experience them a bit more. By the time you can do any planar traveling (ethereal jaunt or shadow walk), you can just as easily get ‘plane shift’ and ‘teleport’ to get exactly where you want to go in the multiverse. Experiencing transitive planes just plain isn’t a necessary step.

I think it would be more fun if the only mid-level planar traveling spells take you from a ‘regular’ plane (material, inner, outer) to a transitive plane. So to get from the Material Plane to Acheron, you have to shift to the astral plane and then make your way to a portal.

If anyone is interested, I occasionally use a variant in my campaigns. Some powerful force has settled in the astral plane (say the githyanki). They’ve enacted a ritual that effectively levies a ‘planar tax.’ People can plane shift as normal, with one difference: If anyone uses plane shift or other ‘insta-acces’ methods that use the astral plane, they take 1d4 points of Con damage. This simulates the githyanki’s spell sapping away a small portion of the traveler’s strength and powering the race.

What do you all think of the views of this essay?

Jim
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-05-07, 05:57 PM Well, it could be a good option to add and it makes me think of many good things... I like very much Astral Plane's description and everything...
On the other hand, it could seem like a punishment for players who just use their resources...
In the campaigns I play/master it could be useful, since Spellcasters use Plane Shift too much, even for the most stupid reasons...

Another option is to give a little chance of partial failure to Spells such as Plane Shift and Teleport (Teleport instantly travels through the Astral Plane, as stated on its description), so that they don't bring to the targeted destination, but leave the Spellcaster (and companions) in the Astral Plane...
It could be a 5% for Teleport (since its course is Plane 1-Astral-Plane 1), 2% for Teleport Without Error, and 10% for Plane Shift (course: Plane 1-Astral-Plane 2)...
ArcTan
09-05-07, 11:38 PM Hey all,

I suppose this post is a combination rant/essay/question.

There are (according to 3.0/3.5 rules) a few different types of planes: Material, transitive, inner, outer, variant, and demiplanes. My own personal opinion is that the most unique, richly described, fascinating, and best concepts are the transitive planes. Especially the variant transitive planes such as the Plane of Mirrors. (Again, just a personal opinion).

I’ve noticed something though: The transitive planes themselves are largely irrelevant as a means of planar travel. There are some circumstances where you want to stay on a transitive lane for a bit, such as ethereal jaunt. For the most part, though, you never really spend any time on a transitive plane on the path from the Material Plane to (for example) the elemental plane of Fire or the 9 Hells. It’s as if these transitive planes are well-designed, laid out meticulously, and the writers explain exactly how they relate in planar cosmology. But then they follow up by saying “But don’t worry about it. Because as long as the astral plane is online, you never have to visit a transitive plane. Just cast plane shift and you can go to any plane in the multiverse. No worries!”

Many demiplanes are specifically designed so you can't do that. Demiplanes have their "entrance" at some specific point on a transitive plane, and if you try using magic to get into the demiplane anywhere else (like casting plane shift) you fail.

I’m wondering if anyone else sees it this way. I guess I feel like if all that effort went into creating the transitive planes, planar travelers should experience them a bit more. By the time you can do any planar traveling (ethereal jaunt or shadow walk), you can just as easily get ‘plane shift’ and ‘teleport’ to get exactly where you want to go in the multiverse. Experiencing transitive planes just plain isn’t a necessary step.

The purpose of ethereal jaunt and shadow walk is to get past the primary obstacle of using teleport -- knowing where you want to go before you go there.
sicsemperjohn
09-06-07, 03:54 AM I always had a really strong affection for the Ethereal Plane, since the Guide To book, that had all sorts of creepy things out there. Demi-planes made of worms, rifts that lead right out of reality with broken-down observatories near them. My favorite was this odd location where there were two statues, one with SPACE written on it, and the other TIME. I don't know how I'll incorporate those into a campaign, but I will someday.
Calmar
09-06-07, 04:17 AM The Astral is a transitive plane itself. You just do not really see it while passing through by means of teleportation or magical portals.
Why don't you invent a spell that was created by githyanki mages to disrupt this kind of astral travel and to hurl people out of the teleport, into the Astral Plane? :)
This way they could tumble right into the arms of a party of githyanki raiders. And then the heroes can begin their search for the right color pool to bring them where they first wanted to get.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avenger314 09-05-07, 03:03 PM	Hey all, I suppose this post is a combination rant/essay/question. There are (according to 3.0/3.5 rules) a few different types of planes: Material, transitive, inner, outer, variant, and demiplanes. My own personal opinion is that the most unique, richly described, fascinating, and best concepts are the transitive planes. Especially the variant transitive planes such as the Plane of Mirrors. (Again, just a personal opinion). I’ve noticed something though: The transitive planes themselves are largely irrelevant as a means of planar travel. There are some circumstances where you want to stay on a transitive lane for a bit, such as ethereal jaunt. For the most part, though, you never really spend any time on a transitive plane on the path from the Material Plane to (for example) the elemental plane of Fire or the 9 Hells. It’s as if these transitive planes are well-designed, laid out meticulously, and the writers explain exactly how they relate in planar cosmology. But then they follow up by saying “But don’t worry about it. Because as long as the astral plane is online, you never have to visit a transitive plane. Just cast plane shift and you can go to any plane in the multiverse. No worries!” I’m wondering if anyone else sees it this way. I guess I feel like if all that effort went into creating the transitive planes, planar travelers should experience them a bit more. By the time you can do any planar traveling (ethereal jaunt or shadow walk), you can just as easily get ‘plane shift’ and ‘teleport’ to get exactly where you want to go in the multiverse. Experiencing transitive planes just plain isn’t a necessary step. I think it would be more fun if the only mid-level planar traveling spells take you from a ‘regular’ plane (material, inner, outer) to a transitive plane. So to get from the Material Plane to Acheron, you have to shift to the astral plane and then make your way to a portal. If anyone is interested, I occasionally use a variant in my campaigns. Some powerful force has settled in the astral plane (say the githyanki). They’ve enacted a ritual that effectively levies a ‘planar tax.’ People can plane shift as normal, with one difference: If anyone uses plane shift or other ‘insta-acces’ methods that use the astral plane, they take 1d4 points of Con damage. This simulates the githyanki’s spell sapping away a small portion of the traveler’s strength and powering the race. What do you all think of the views of this essay? Jim
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-05-07, 05:57 PM	Well, it could be a good option to add and it makes me think of many good things... I like very much Astral Plane's description and everything... On the other hand, it could seem like a punishment for players who just use their resources... In the campaigns I play/master it could be useful, since Spellcasters use Plane Shift too much, even for the most stupid reasons... Another option is to give a little chance of partial failure to Spells such as Plane Shift and Teleport (Teleport instantly travels through the Astral Plane, as stated on its description), so that they don't bring to the targeted destination, but leave the Spellcaster (and companions) in the Astral Plane... It could be a 5% for Teleport (since its course is Plane 1-Astral-Plane 1), 2% for Teleport Without Error, and 10% for Plane Shift (course: Plane 1-Astral-Plane 2)...
ArcTan 09-05-07, 11:38 PM	Hey all, I suppose this post is a combination rant/essay/question. There are (according to 3.0/3.5 rules) a few different types of planes: Material, transitive, inner, outer, variant, and demiplanes. My own personal opinion is that the most unique, richly described, fascinating, and best concepts are the transitive planes. Especially the variant transitive planes such as the Plane of Mirrors. (Again, just a personal opinion). I’ve noticed something though: The transitive planes themselves are largely irrelevant as a means of planar travel. There are some circumstances where you want to stay on a transitive lane for a bit, such as ethereal jaunt. For the most part, though, you never really spend any time on a transitive plane on the path from the Material Plane to (for example) the elemental plane of Fire or the 9 Hells. It’s as if these transitive planes are well-designed, laid out meticulously, and the writers explain exactly how they relate in planar cosmology. But then they follow up by saying “But don’t worry about it. Because as long as the astral plane is online, you never have to visit a transitive plane. Just cast plane shift and you can go to any plane in the multiverse. No worries!” Many demiplanes are specifically designed so you can't do that. Demiplanes have their "entrance" at some specific point on a transitive plane, and if you try using magic to get into the demiplane anywhere else (like casting plane shift) you fail. I’m wondering if anyone else sees it this way. I guess I feel like if all that effort went into creating the transitive planes, planar travelers should experience them a bit more. By the time you can do any planar traveling (ethereal jaunt or shadow walk), you can just as easily get ‘plane shift’ and ‘teleport’ to get exactly where you want to go in the multiverse. Experiencing transitive planes just plain isn’t a necessary step. The purpose of ethereal jaunt and shadow walk is to get past the primary obstacle of using teleport -- knowing where you want to go before you go there.
sicsemperjohn 09-06-07, 03:54 AM	I always had a really strong affection for the Ethereal Plane, since the Guide To book, that had all sorts of creepy things out there. Demi-planes made of worms, rifts that lead right out of reality with broken-down observatories near them. My favorite was this odd location where there were two statues, one with SPACE written on it, and the other TIME. I don't know how I'll incorporate those into a campaign, but I will someday.
Calmar 09-06-07, 04:17 AM	The Astral is a transitive plane itself. You just do not really see it while passing through by means of teleportation or magical portals. Why don't you invent a spell that was created by githyanki mages to disrupt this kind of astral travel and to hurl people out of the teleport, into the Astral Plane? :) This way they could tumble right into the arms of a party of githyanki raiders. And then the heroes can begin their search for the right color pool to bring them where they first wanted to get.