One sided coin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

One sided coin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dualazi
07-17-07, 07:18 AM This discussion is centered around the idea that attaining godhood, i.e. attaining divinity, is the end-all be-all of a being's transcendence.

The problem I have with this is that it implies that faith & divine power are more influential/powerful than arcane, which seems terribly flawed given the typically dichotomous nature of D&D.

For example, Vecna, an extremely powerful lich, eventually attained godhood through his skillful manipulation of the arcane arts.

However, in most of the resource books/lore/history of the premise of the D&D universe, the gods came into being shortly after the creation of the universe. This tells us that existence itself is not given by the gods, merely governed (even that might be overestimating their power) and that the basis of magic (ancient rules and formulas which the universe is built around) should exist with or without them.

Personally, I think that if beings can attain such understanding of the laws (or lack thereof) of the universe that they can attain the same feats/qualities/powers of the gods without granting spells, requiring worshippers, or similar divine trappings. They are mighty because their understanding has made them so.

Another way of thinking about this is that a gods understanding of his/her portfolio (and thereby his/her strength) is directly proportional with the number of worshippers he/she has, whereas an arcane caster of similar power got there largely by himself through study. They both reach the same end result, just through different means, which I feel is more in keeping with a D&D mentality.

Anyone agree/disagree or propose an alternate system?
runestar
07-17-07, 08:09 AM I have always thought that while it might not be impossible to use arcane means to attain godhood (Karsus succeeded, albeit only for a brief moment, Velsharoon attained godhood via some obscure arcane ritual revealed to him by Talos), it would still be vastly inferior to drawing power from your worshipers.

Think of it this way. With arcane power, you are depending on yourself for your own power. But with divine power, you have a lot of worshipers supplying you with your much needed divinity. So with arcane power, you are fighting an uphill battle in increasing your might compared to drawing said power from your followers.

Sort of like slowly saving up the capital needed to start your own business and gradually expanding it with your own funds, vs going all out with loans provided by friends/family members (assuming you don't have to pay them back).
Sorcen_Anenooata
07-17-07, 08:16 AM I like the idea. Previously I have sought to bring my characters back as outsiders when they die. They have orchestrated their afterlives as an outsider through careful planning and bribery of the rigth beings to ascend them through the ranks and restore their memories when they return as whichever respective outsider best fits their alignments, usually baatezu.

Outsiders can start cults that worship them and gain the powers of gods, while not gaining the weaknesses of gods. These devils can also kill the true gods if they wish and can gain plenty of power without resorting to seeking godhood.

Anyway I like your idea immensly. My character Sorcen is a well known godkiller and I have never really specified where he gets his power so this could be an explanation. Although I did sort of have an explanation kept secret. So good idea, the alternative is planning out your afterlife as an outsider and bribery to keep your memories and to ascend faster but thats alot of work, alot.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-17-07, 08:40 AM However, in most of the resource books/lore/history of the premise of the D&D universe, the gods came into being shortly after the creation of the universe. This tells us that existence itself is not given by the gods, merely governed (even that might be overestimating their power) and that the basis of magic (ancient rules and formulas which the universe is built around) should exist with or without them.

*the 'loth smiles* Deities are pretty late arrivals to the stage, so to speak.

Godhood is simply one path to power, one state of transcendence available to mortals. It's not exclusive to mortals, and gods can congeal out of a mass of raw faith and worship without ever having existed in any "lesser" form before that point, but it's an apparently popular option for mortals nonetheless.

Beings that rival (or depending on what we're looking at, exceed) the gods are often creatures that were never mortal, and whose state of being pre-dates gods. The eldest outsiders, the true neutral elemental powers, the archomentals, enigmas like Sun-Sing and Ma-Yaun, etc.

Of course, some mortals have the chance to ascend the ranks of the tanar'ri or baatezu and in theory reach a level of existance that is both distinct from godhood and as (or more) powerful, and they're not beholden to worship or giving out spells unless they want to. Yet at the same time, they're gaining that power by stripping away what made them mortal, leaving only a fragment of their prior self and continually linking it to a concept/plane/alignment that predated mortality in the first place. Slavery or self-improvement? I'll leave that for others to decide.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dualazi 07-17-07, 07:18 AM	This discussion is centered around the idea that attaining godhood, i.e. attaining divinity, is the end-all be-all of a being's transcendence. The problem I have with this is that it implies that faith & divine power are more influential/powerful than arcane, which seems terribly flawed given the typically dichotomous nature of D&D. For example, Vecna, an extremely powerful lich, eventually attained godhood through his skillful manipulation of the arcane arts. However, in most of the resource books/lore/history of the premise of the D&D universe, the gods came into being shortly after the creation of the universe. This tells us that existence itself is not given by the gods, merely governed (even that might be overestimating their power) and that the basis of magic (ancient rules and formulas which the universe is built around) should exist with or without them. Personally, I think that if beings can attain such understanding of the laws (or lack thereof) of the universe that they can attain the same feats/qualities/powers of the gods without granting spells, requiring worshippers, or similar divine trappings. They are mighty because their understanding has made them so. Another way of thinking about this is that a gods understanding of his/her portfolio (and thereby his/her strength) is directly proportional with the number of worshippers he/she has, whereas an arcane caster of similar power got there largely by himself through study. They both reach the same end result, just through different means, which I feel is more in keeping with a D&D mentality. Anyone agree/disagree or propose an alternate system?
runestar 07-17-07, 08:09 AM	I have always thought that while it might not be impossible to use arcane means to attain godhood (Karsus succeeded, albeit only for a brief moment, Velsharoon attained godhood via some obscure arcane ritual revealed to him by Talos), it would still be vastly inferior to drawing power from your worshipers. Think of it this way. With arcane power, you are depending on yourself for your own power. But with divine power, you have a lot of worshipers supplying you with your much needed divinity. So with arcane power, you are fighting an uphill battle in increasing your might compared to drawing said power from your followers. Sort of like slowly saving up the capital needed to start your own business and gradually expanding it with your own funds, vs going all out with loans provided by friends/family members (assuming you don't have to pay them back).
Sorcen_Anenooata 07-17-07, 08:16 AM	I like the idea. Previously I have sought to bring my characters back as outsiders when they die. They have orchestrated their afterlives as an outsider through careful planning and bribery of the rigth beings to ascend them through the ranks and restore their memories when they return as whichever respective outsider best fits their alignments, usually baatezu. Outsiders can start cults that worship them and gain the powers of gods, while not gaining the weaknesses of gods. These devils can also kill the true gods if they wish and can gain plenty of power without resorting to seeking godhood. Anyway I like your idea immensly. My character Sorcen is a well known godkiller and I have never really specified where he gets his power so this could be an explanation. Although I did sort of have an explanation kept secret. So good idea, the alternative is planning out your afterlife as an outsider and bribery to keep your memories and to ascend faster but thats alot of work, alot.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-17-07, 08:40 AM	However, in most of the resource books/lore/history of the premise of the D&D universe, the gods came into being shortly after the creation of the universe. This tells us that existence itself is not given by the gods, merely governed (even that might be overestimating their power) and that the basis of magic (ancient rules and formulas which the universe is built around) should exist with or without them. the 'loth smiles Deities are pretty late arrivals to the stage, so to speak. Godhood is simply one path to power, one state of transcendence available to mortals. It's not exclusive to mortals, and gods can congeal out of a mass of raw faith and worship without ever having existed in any "lesser" form before that point, but it's an apparently popular option for mortals nonetheless. Beings that rival (or depending on what we're looking at, exceed) the gods are often creatures that were never mortal, and whose state of being pre-dates gods. The eldest outsiders, the true neutral elemental powers, the archomentals, enigmas like Sun-Sing and Ma-Yaun, etc. Of course, some mortals have the chance to ascend the ranks of the tanar'ri or baatezu and in theory reach a level of existance that is both distinct from godhood and as (or more) powerful, and they're not beholden to worship or giving out spells unless they want to. Yet at the same time, they're gaining that power by stripping away what made them mortal, leaving only a fragment of their prior self and continually linking it to a concept/plane/alignment that predated mortality in the first place. Slavery or self-improvement? I'll leave that for others to decide.