Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sciborg2 03-07-07, 07:48 PM	Is it viable to have a setting with clerics only empowered by philosophy?
blackjackg 03-07-07, 08:07 PM	Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Absolutely.
Richmud 03-07-07, 08:08 PM	Yes it is I'm certain I should say more but I'm not sure what else to add
JulesCARV 03-08-07, 03:20 AM	Personally, I'm not into the idea. It could work, as other have pointed out above. If anything, I'd rather have clerics who just learn their magical powers through skill, experience, perceptiveness, etc, like wizards and such, regardless of what their philosophy is, rather than get rid of the "usual" gods to worship, and have philosophies instead. That way, clerics could worship a god if they wanted, follow a philosophy if they wanted, or do neither if they wanted too. Allowing "philosophy clerics" to the exclusion of everything else seems limiting to me.
WombleHunter 03-08-07, 08:38 AM	Why wouldn't it be?
celtredleg 03-08-07, 09:42 AM	Considering how many times I have seen PCs write a diety on thier sheet, and then never reference it again, just alignment, I dont se why it would not work.
Millennium 03-08-07, 10:00 AM	Sure. What effect are you going for, though?
Giant_Moth 03-08-07, 12:40 PM	Yes, but the philosophy has to be believed in a lot of people for it to grant powers to clerics. I have experienced a lot of players trying to use philosophies as an easy way to grant themselves overpowered mixes of domains. So don't fall into that trap.
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 02:51 PM	I like the idea of philosopher clerics, although some of the cleric mechanics are a bit wonky here. What in the hells is a LN Stoic doing with turn undead, healing, and an ability to wear heavy armor? Granted, this is not just a problem with philosopher clerics, but with clerics of gods and religions that have no opinion on the undead and have nothing to do with healing. Why, for example, is a cleric of a god of knowledge, who lacks the healing domain, spontaneously casting healing magic? I would be more in favor of granted clerics/philosophers spontaneous domain casting or something of that nature. Same goes for turning, it needs to be more custom fit for the various religions/philosophy. -- I have actually made use of psionics to represent the dedicated philosopher, complete with a renaming of the class (Psion > Philosopher), and some fluff tweaking.
Richmud 03-08-07, 03:46 PM	Yes, but the philosophy has to be believed in a lot of people for it to grant powers to clerics. I have experienced a lot of players trying to use philosophies as an easy way to grant themselves overpowered mixes of domains. So don't fall into that trap. A cleric can be the one and only believer in a given philosophy and still gain powers. You are welcome to house rule differently if you believe it leads to problems but thats not what the rules require
JulesCARV 03-08-07, 04:04 PM	I think philosophical inclinations should be a matter of roleplaying. You want to play a philosophical guy who can swing a greatsword really well while wearing full plate? Play a fighter and have him be a fighter with a philosophical frame of mind. Want to play a philosophical type who is really good at stealth, trap disarmament, and the like? Play a rogue and have her be a rogue who's into philosophy. Want to play a philosophy-oriented guy who knows a lot of arcane magic? Play a wizard who likes philosophy, etc.
ArcTan 03-08-07, 04:35 PM	I like the idea of philosopher clerics, although some of the cleric mechanics are a bit wonky here. What in the hells is a LN Stoic doing with turn undead, healing, and an ability to wear heavy armor? Granted, this is not just a problem with philosopher clerics, but with clerics of gods and religions that have no opinion on the undead and have nothing to do with healing. Why, for example, is a cleric of a god of knowledge, who lacks the healing domain, spontaneously casting healing magic? Because D&D isn't truly neutral in this regard. In the core D&D cosmology, the opposition between the Positive and Negative Energy Planes and between positive and negative energy in general is a basic scientific fact of the world and is the basis on which all divine spellcasting operates. Being an empowered "philosopher" will put you in contact with one plane or the other, no matter what you believe, because positive/negative energy is a bedrock truth of natural philosophy. The heavy armor is just because a "Cleric" really means a militant questor knight of his beliefs. Most actual members of the clergy, as pointed out in the DMG, are NPCs with the Expert and Adept classes. If it really bothers you, that's what Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric variant is for.
Richmud 03-08-07, 06:47 PM	The primary purpose of a philosophy based cleric is for when no deity properly fits your philosophy. For example what if I believe in the power of fate, and that all things must be as they are, must be as they become, and I am merely fulfilling the destiny I was born with just as all other creatures from the greatest to smallest. Exactly which deity is appropriate for me? With the philosophical cleric the DM does not have to create a whole new deity or society of people to allow you to play your character the way you want to play him
Bruunwald 03-08-07, 07:20 PM	Yes, but the philosophy has to be believed in a lot of people for it to grant powers to clerics. I have experienced a lot of players trying to use philosophies as an easy way to grant themselves overpowered mixes of domains. So don't fall into that trap. That shouldn't result in anything game breaking, though, since the cleric entry expressly allows clerics without deities to choose domains based on alignment. You're still only allowed the two unless your DM isn't watching closely enough. And you still face restrictions. Since alignment is a philosophy, the built-in restrictions should be enough to deter weird or overpowered mixes. Otherwise, the DM must reserve the right to approve which domains fit the philosophy and alignment in question. The philosophy need not be believed by anybody else, since the book also states that the power comes in that case, specifically from the cleric's devotion to his cause. It says nothing about anybody else agreeing with him.
JulesCARV 03-08-07, 07:22 PM	Alignments aren't philosophies. At least, I sure think they aren't.
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 07:29 PM	Because D&D isn't truly neutral in this regard. In the core D&D cosmology, the opposition between the Positive and Negative Energy Planes and between positive and negative energy in general is a basic scientific fact of the world and is the basis on which all divine spellcasting operates. Being an empowered "philosopher" will put you in contact with one plane or the other, no matter what you believe, because positive/negative energy is a bedrock truth of natural philosophy. The heavy armor is just because a "Cleric" really means a militant questor knight of his beliefs. Most actual members of the clergy, as pointed out in the DMG, are NPCs with the Expert and Adept classes. If it really bothers you, that's what Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric variant is for. First, yes it really does bother me to an irrational degree, this I admit. I find the concept of healing by any cleric that lacks access to the healing domain to be pointless, illogical, and quite frankly offensive. The same for turning undead. It cheapens the nature of religion in the world, and turns all clerics into metaphisical clones without a unique identity. If you follow a god of healing, protection, and positive energy well sure, it makes sense that you can heal spontaneously and turn undead. But the cleric of the god of the sea and storms has no reason to have power over such things, and to grant them such powers tends to marginalize these particular beliefs and myth systems. Moreover, time and again it is said that the energies are stated to be neutral forces. Therefore there should be no necessary connection between good and positive and evil and negative. What does the NE cleric of the hypothetical TN god of the dead (who opposes all undead) do when encountering such creatures? He can't turn them, yet he is bound to destroy undead when he comes across them, for they are upsetting the balance of life and death. He is inherently hamstrung by the evil = negative energy assumption even though negative energy isn't evil. As a corollary, the interaction of the positive and negative energy planes is not the source of divine magic in the core cosmology, rather it is the outer planes and the deities who reside there. It would make far more sense for clerics to have Smite (opposing alignment) or Turn (outsider of thematically appropriate type). -- Anyway, back to the nominal topic at hand: Another use for the philosophical cleric would be in an organization like the Factions in Planescape, especially the Athar.
sciencemile 03-10-07, 07:40 AM	The following is a possible way to brew this I'd say that a small amount of Domains should actually be choosable in such a case, and I'll explain my thinking. The main difference between philosophies and religion is that religions grant power through belief in the Dogma of a Deity, while on the other hand, Philosophies grant power through belief in the Dogma of a Philosopher. You wouldn't have Confucianism without Confucius, nor Buddhism without Buddha. In essence, if you choose to have philosophies only, you would have to design the founder of a Philosophy, and give that philosopher domains; Of course, to make it different from Deities, the Cleric would not be restricted to a prechosen time of day as his meditation time, nor would he be able to have the Gods deny him his powers; the philosophers were mortal, or at most Quasi Deities. To limit the choices is to avoid having players exploit broken combinations, of course.
Andyr 03-10-07, 11:24 AM	I agree that Turn Undead and similar don't necessarily make sense as powers for Clerics who worship philosophies rather than beings--but there are feats and alternate class features you can use instead (e.g. divine metamagic instead of using the ability, or things that replace it such as the counterspelling from Complete Mage). The primary purpose of a philosophy based cleric is for when no deity properly fits your philosophy. For example what if I believe in the power of fate, and that all things must be as they are, must be as they become, and I am merely fulfilling the destiny I was born with just as all other creatures from the greatest to smallest. Exactly which deity is appropriate for me? I know this it was probably a rhetorical question, but perhaps Jergal? ;)
CaptainPicard 03-10-07, 11:43 AM	I've done something like this in a setting I'm running right now. It's not entirely an "all philosophical Clerics" thing, but there are no evidence that Gods exist outside of people's minds and there are those who have worshiped Gods that they either made up or are actually people that they know (it gets really odd when the person a Cleric worships is weaker than the Cleric himself), and for these reasons many people shun the worship of these so-called "Gods". In this case the situation with the Gods is a major part of the game's storyline, but I still have to deal with many of the problems you mentioned and the game works fine.
Richmud 03-10-07, 01:19 PM	I know this it was probably a rhetorical question, but perhaps Jergal? ;) I have no idea who that is. This is what I get for not checking on all the deities in all the campaign worlds before making up that hypothetical situation
Treymordin 03-16-07, 05:32 PM	You could be followers of ancient philosphies like the Stoics and the Platonics.
sciborg2 03-17-07, 12:08 AM	I've been thinking more on this and it might be very interesting to exist in a world where strong beliefs in something are what determines clerical power. There would be some orders but there would also be those who were dedicated to certain philosophies and wandered the world exercising their beliefs. Restricting who might have this power would also make those who could heal using magic very rare and very special.