Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ciryx2k 02-09-07, 10:34 PM	Originally posted in the DM Rules Counceling forums here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11441788#post11441788 Okay, here's where I'm afraid the proverbial poo will hit the fan: I am currently running in a setting called Dawnforge. In this setting, there are no gods yet. The world is basically new and the PCs are helping to create all the civilizations we all play in in our D&D games. As such, I'm planning on giving them the possibility to ascend to godhood at higher levels. Right now, they're all only around ECL 5, so this is gonna be a while, but I'm trying to get prepared as I know this will probably the be the hardest thing I've ever done before in a game. Now for the question: What's the LA of godhood? I'm read the Deities and Demigods book, and think that the system will work fine, but I noted it left that one thing out. If the answer is, "There's no LA you moron, you can't compare what a god gets to what a standard PC progression has" that's fine, I'll see if I can work SOMETHING out. I've discussed this with my players. Some definitely want it, some are ambivalent about it, and a couple have flat out said NO. I'm not handing this out for power gaming reasons. They will ONLY get it if RP'ed correctly and it fits their character. Any suggestions as for LA or anything else are more than welcome, heck, that's why I'm posting this. Now it's your turn... flame away, I know it's probably coming :). Addition to original post: I'm sure if there IS a formula for LA, it will depend on Divine Rank, and that's fine. I'm planning on starting them off at DR 1 when I bring it in and they will have to work their way up by gathering followers.
INeedNoSalt 02-09-07, 10:55 PM	Eh... Like you said. Dawnforge doesn't have any gods. A Divine Rank of 0 will basically make them unstoppable to the rest of the world, the LA is kind of irrelevant.
shamangrizzley 02-09-07, 11:00 PM	The book Dieities and Demi Gods while not stating how to level advance a group of dieties, however they do give a tool and that is divine rank. When I did an ascendancy campaign I decided that in order to increase in divine rank the character would need to gain so many followers. This acutally worked very well and while I have since lost the table I believe it broke down as follows To attain divine rank 0 (godhood) a pc had to make a lasting and memorable change in the world. As the DM you can be very flexible or extremly regimented about what this means. To gain rank 1 divine status the new godling must amass 1000 worshipers. For rank 2 he would need 3000 followers For rank 3 he would need 6000 followers For rank 4 he would need 12000 followers etc. While it may seem a steep incline to gain additional Divine Ranks you must remember that gods need followers and that even though it is only a rank or two these ranks can be huge. I hope that gives you some direction and I would be more than happy to help further if you want. Shoot me a PM or email.
ciryx2k 02-09-07, 11:00 PM	Eh... Like you said. Dawnforge doesn't have any gods. A Divine Rank of 0 will basically make them unstoppable to the rest of the world, the LA is kind of irrelevant. Well, the point of it is, I'm trying to RP them through the transition of Dawnforge to modern day D&D. They will be the heros that built the forgotten ruins adventurers plunder. They might be some of the first gods. They will also have evil gods acend as well and it will be a power play between them and their followers. Divine Rank 0 won't work because the entire point of it is to attract worshipers. If they can't grant spells, that kinda blows things out of the water. Even the template that Dawnforge gives for "immortals" (the predecessors to the gods) can grant spells. I'm not looking for them to be Hercules. I'm wanting them to be an 18 year old Zeus.
ciryx2k 02-09-07, 11:02 PM	The book Dieities and Demi Gods while not stating how to level advance a group of dieties, however they do give a tool and that is divine rank. When I did an ascendancy campaign I decided that in order to increase in divine rank the character would need to gain so many followers. This acutally worked very well and while I have since lost the table I believe it broke down as follows To attain divine rank 0 (godhood) a pc had to make a lasting and memorable change in the world. As the DM you can be very flexible or extremly regimented about what this means. To gain rank 1 divine status the new godling must amass 1000 worshipers. For rank 2 he would need 3000 followers For rank 3 he would need 6000 followers For rank 4 he would need 12000 followers etc. While it may seem a steep incline to gain additional Divine Ranks you must remember that gods need followers and that even though it is only a rank or two these ranks can be huge. I hope that gives you some direction and I would be more than happy to help further if you want. Shoot me a PM or email. It does help a little. I was already planning on having to leave the XP system behind for this and gathering followers is a sure fire way to gain power so it makes complete and total sense.
Taeldrin Laesrash 02-09-07, 11:02 PM	LA depends on the Saliant Divine Abilities the god has. Some may add +1 or +2 to the LA, but stuff like Spontaneous Wizard Spells, Life and Death, and Alter Reality are beyond LA. For the most part, a god shouldn't really be a player. The closest thing I can think of for playing gods would be some of the Dicefreaks rules.
Rutibex 02-09-07, 11:22 PM	As was stated, some of the Salient Divine Abilities just make things impossible to play. Alter Reality is the most problimatic, every spell at will is just makes every challenge beyond direct godly combat moot. I would suggest that you simply convert some of the less broken Salient Divine Abilities into epic feats with a level requirment of 40+. This way you can keep yourself in the epic rules and keep the flavour of ascending to godhood.
sciborg2 02-10-07, 01:03 AM	If there are no gods, DVR 0 should be enough to get followers. Heck, sorcerer kings in Athas have followers. I don't understand the idea of 18 year old Zeus -- is it Zeus as a greater god or a Zeus who will one day be a greater god?
ciryx2k 02-10-07, 03:56 AM	If there are no gods, DVR 0 should be enough to get followers. Heck, sorcerer kings in Athas have followers. I don't understand the idea of 18 year old Zeus -- is it Zeus as a greater god or a Zeus who will one day be a greater god? Zeus who will one day be a greater god. DvR 0 would give me much of a problem, it's just that Dieties and Demigods said they can't grant spells. I guess I could always just nix that part of it as a DM call.
INeedNoSalt 02-10-07, 01:04 PM	Zeus who will one day be a greater god. DvR 0 would give me much of a problem, it's just that Dieties and Demigods said they can't grant spells. I guess I could always just nix that part of it as a DM call. The folks who grant spells in Dawnforge mostly don't have any Divine Rank at all, right? Call it precedent.
Bob the Efreet 02-10-07, 03:39 PM	I think the purpose behind level adjustment is to even the balance of power between the players - Billy is playing a drow, and we don't want his cool drow powers to overshadow Eduardo the human fighter, so we'll take away two of Billy's class levels to make up for it. If everybody's playing drow, then everybody's equal again and you can pretend the LA isn't there. If all your players are the same rank of deity, they should be approximately equal; I don't necessarily see that you need to assign them level adjustment.
Witch 02-10-07, 03:47 PM	A good LA for Quasideity would be +6.
ciryx2k 02-10-07, 04:20 PM	The folks who grant spells in Dawnforge mostly don't have any Divine Rank at all, right? Call it precedent. You are correct Sir. Sounds like a good idea to me. I think I'll use it.
Starmage21 02-10-07, 08:24 PM	I think the purpose behind level adjustment is to even the balance of power between the players - Billy is playing a drow, and we don't want his cool drow powers to overshadow Eduardo the human fighter, so we'll take away two of Billy's class levels to make up for it. If everybody's playing drow, then everybody's equal again and you can pretend the LA isn't there. If all your players are the same rank of deity, they should be approximately equal; I don't necessarily see that you need to assign them level adjustment. /agree
WarDragon 02-11-07, 12:45 AM	http://www.immortalshandbook.com/ascension.htm A comprehensive, balanced system for allowing players to ascend to divinity. Not quite finished yet, and the pre-orders are closed, but it's getting near to the final release.
sciborg2 02-11-07, 01:32 AM	nice to see UpperKrust's work coming to culmination, though I recall vehemently disagreeing with him on some silly thing or other long ago....
Phantom Llama 02-11-07, 06:36 PM	'Balanced' may be an overstatement, but it's almost certainly better for actual play and PC use than the D&DG material. You might want to go to its discussion forums here (http://www.enworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=304) to see more if it's what you're looking for. nice to see UpperKrust's work coming to culmination, though I recall vehemently disagreeing with him on some silly thing or other long ago.... The crux of the problem is that UK's work and the Planescape approach represent two opposite ends of the spectrum of game design, and neither side seems able to accept the validity of the other. I for one think both can be great, and long for the day when the rilmani in me finds a viable synthesis.
Shaftiel 02-11-07, 10:34 PM	My favorite diety rulebook was hands-down The Primal Order, printed by WotC about a decade ago, but good luck finding a copy these days... it has very, very detailed and balanced rules for ascension but it's a general mechanical system rather than D&D (much less 3.5) specific. Even if you don't end up using the system, if you can get your hands on it it would give you tons of ideas. -Shaftiel Edit: The guy who did it, Peter Adkison, now works full-time for WotC; he did "Additional Design" on all three of the 3.0 and 3.5 core books. :D
Kyle_the_DM 02-14-07, 06:53 PM	Having a divine rank of zero would make the players invulnerable to anything without divine rank. My suggestion is to give your antagonists the same divine rank as your players and just keep the existing CR system. This could be explained by saying the antagonists are also striving for godhood and become rivals for your players. The drawback is justifying why there are so many people/monsters with divine rank. Personally I would let the game go epic and then use ascention as a sort of end game with maybe one or two divine battles.
ciryx2k 02-14-07, 07:13 PM	Having a divine rank of zero would make the players invulnerable to anything without divine rank. My suggestion is to give your antagonists the same divine rank as your players and just keep the existing CR system. This could be explained by saying the antagonists are also striving for godhood and become rivals for your players. The drawback is justifying why there are so many people/monsters with divine rank. Personally I would let the game go epic and then use ascention as a sort of end game with maybe one or two divine battles. I was already planning on, once they attain godhood, making the main bad guys of similar ilk. As far as why so many are having this happen at once, it's rather simple. In the Dawnforge setting, there are NO gods. This is the world at the beginning. I'm planning on running them through the creation of the gods and how they came to be.
ripvanwormer 02-14-07, 08:13 PM	Edit: The guy who did it, Peter Adkison, now works full-time for WotC; he did "Additional Design" on all three of the 3.0 and 3.5 core books. Peter Adkison was the president and founder of Wizards of the Coast. He quit the company several years ago, shortly after he sold it to Hasbro. He did "additional design" on the core books because he was the boss (that's not to say he did a bad job - I have no idea what parts he was responsible for). He didn't work on the 3.5 core books directly - they gave him credit for his original work when they were creating 3e. He now runs Gen Con every year. The Primal Order is indeed a very interesting book, but hard to reconcile with the present divine rules. Politics within the company prevented him from ever publishing it as a 3e D&D supplement (according to Chris Pramas, when I asked him about it on a message board). After he left the company he bought the rights to his game, but decided the moment when it was marketable had passed. He has no plans to publish it under the d20 license.
ray53208 02-15-07, 12:38 AM	A good LA for Quasideity would be +6. ive seen that elsewhere too, but what justifies a +6? an average salamander is +5, and a rakshasa is +7. a quasi deity seems so much more powerful than either of those. i tried using the defunct savage species, which didnt cover nearly as much ground as i had hoped it would, but i got a minimum LA +8. thats not including most of the immunities. i could see an LA of +10 or 11 for a quasi deity with a divine rank of zero. a full fledged demigod with a rank of one could easily be +20. that would instantly put any PC demigod on the epic level experience table. the deities & demigods FAQ (downloadable from wotc) has a paragraph about what stats were used to make gods, so thats one place to start. but ive been doing some research on this issue for a while now. frustratingly, there is remarkably little official info on it. so, i will offer you a simple interpretation of LA for PCs with divine ranks. a quasi deity with a rank of zero has an LA of +18 and each rank adds a +2 to the LA of the character. i feel this is adequate in keeping game balance with other material published by wotc.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-15-07, 01:58 AM	As stated before, I would just give the bad guys divine rank also and ignore the balance factor. The fast experience gains from taking on powerful monsters can be fun. You can also give the bad guys some artifact or ability that lets them make creatures with divine rank, and that sort of thing can be used as an adventure hook even though they're way beyond everything else that can stand up to them.
Witch 02-15-07, 07:16 AM	but ive been doing some research on this issue for a while now. frustratingly, there is remarkably little official info on it. so, i will offer you a simple interpretation of LA for PCs with divine ranks. a quasi deity with a rank of zero has an LA of +18 and each rank adds a +2 to the LA of the character. That's a remarkably stupidly high LA. LA is generally CR Adjustment * 2, and adding the quasideity template will generally increase the CR by about 3 to a creature. Not by 9. It doesn't gain enough abilities for that.
ray53208 02-15-07, 09:57 AM	That's a remarkably stupidly high LA. LA is generally CR Adjustment * 2, and adding the quasideity template will generally increase the CR by about 3 to a creature. Not by 9. It doesn't gain enough abilities for that. care to re-examine your statment? what does a rank zero quasi-deity gain? 1. a massive boost in ALL stats (highest +24, lowest +14) 2. maximum hit points for each hit die 3. greatly increased speed 4. a deflection bonus to ac equal to cha and a natural armor bonus of 13 5. immunities to transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, and mind-affecting 6. damage reduction 10/epic 7. fire resistance 5 and spell resistance 32 8. immortality and no need to eat, sleep, or breathe i dont know what game you are playing but thats more than CR+3 in my book.
ray53208 02-15-07, 10:04 AM	As stated before, I would just give the bad guys divine rank also and ignore the balance factor. The fast experience gains from taking on powerful monsters can be fun. You can also give the bad guys some artifact or ability that lets them make creatures with divine rank, and that sort of thing can be used as an adventure hook even though they're way beyond everything else that can stand up to them. this doesnt solve every problem. dire rats with deity ranks dont make sense. i think what cyrix2k wanted to know was how to intergrate them without having to adjust everything up like that. divinities battling it out would be a lot like miniture tokyos being stomped on my guys in rubber dinosaur suits. sometimes youve got to take into account about how many little plastic soldiers equals one guy in a monster costume.
Witch 02-15-07, 10:16 AM	care to re-examine your statment? what does a rank zero quasi-deity gain? 1. a massive boost in ALL stats (highest +24, lowest +14) Can you list me where it says they gain this? I see no such thing in the list. 2. maximum hit points for each hit die Granted. A powerful ability of the template. 3. greatly increased speed Their speed is increased by 30ft, for medium creatures. Big deal. A Ring of Solar Wings costs a bit over 120,000 gold and makes your base fly speed 150 ft. 4. a deflection bonus to ac equal to cha and a natural armor bonus of 13 It does not gain the natural armor bonus unless it has at least 20 Outsider Hit Dice. Which the target is unlikely to get. Yes, it does gain Charisma to AC, which is another powerful ability of the template. 5. immunities to transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, and mind-affecting Yes. Note that the "lich" template does almost the same thing. With the "dry lich" template, you also get Cha*HD extra hit points (and that grants a lot of other abilities, and is only LA +5). 6. damage reduction 10/epic Worthless. Everything you meet at that level will break that DR. 7. fire resistance 5 and spell resistance 32 Spell resistance 32 isn't particularly impressive at that level. If it still is, it means you need to use standard actions to be buffed. Fire resistance 5 isn't particularly impressive either. 8. immortality and no need to eat, sleep, or breathe Little to no game effect. I don't have a clue as to why you think a battle becomes more challenging if the target is ageless, and doesn't need to eat, sleep or breathe. i dont know what game you are playing but thats more than CR+3 in my book. It's not more than CR +3 in my book. And definitely not CR +9.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-15-07, 12:34 PM	this doesnt solve every problem. dire rats with deity ranks dont make sense. i think what cyrix2k wanted to know was how to intergrate them without having to adjust everything up like that. divinities battling it out would be a lot like miniture tokyos being stomped on my guys in rubber dinosaur suits. sometimes youve got to take into account about how many little plastic soldiers equals one guy in a monster costume. Good point. This is what I put together from the SRD: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether. DR 0 grants the following: Maximum hit points per Hit Die. Base land speed increases to that from the table below, existing burrow and swim speeds increase to match the biped land speed, an existing fly speed increases to double the quadraped land speed: Size Biped Quadraped Fine 20' 60' Diminutive 30' 70' Tiny 40' 80' Small 50' 90' Medium 60' 100' Large 80' 120' Huge 100' 140' Gargantuan 120' 160' Colossal 140' 180' A deflection bonus to AC equal to Charisma bonus (if any). Wielded weapons and natural weapons deal aligned damage, matching the character's alignment. For every 20 ranks in a skill, synergy bonuses increase by +2. Immunity to polymorphing, petrification, any form-altering attack (unless self-induced), energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, and mind-affecting effects. These immunities only work against attackers with lower Divine Rank. DR 10/epic. This does not stack with other damage reduction. Fire resistance 5 + Divine Rank. Spell resistance 32 + Divine Rank. Use of all granted domain spells as spell-like abilities at will. Effective caster level is 10 + Divine Rank. Save DC is 10 + spell level + Cha bonus + Divine Rank. Immortal (cannot die from natural causes). Does not age, does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. Oookay. Geh, there's nothing like this to go off of in the MM. I'd peg it at LA +9, assuming that you don't let them use domain spells that their caster level is insufficient for. A better idea would be to give them bits and pieces of the template, possibly even using a transition class like in Savage Species. It's not like "BAM! You're a god!" right? That would also make it easier to figrue out the LA, since you can compare the transition class to an existing prestiege class for power.
Witch 02-15-07, 01:00 PM	Use of all granted domain spells as spell-like abilities at will. Effective caster level is 10 + Divine Rank. Save DC is 10 + spell level + Cha bonus + Divine Rank. I seem to recall that DvR 0 deities can't grant spells. Can anyone refresh my memory on that?
Caliborn 02-15-07, 02:16 PM	I believe Dice Freaks, who are as close to an authority on this kinda stuff as you're gonna get, pegged DvR 0 as an LA+4. Go ask them, you'll most likely get better answers than asking around here.
Witch 02-15-07, 03:14 PM	I've not seen a LA on Dicefreaks (which is my source on CR +3). I inferred LA +6 from that CR.
Starmage21 02-15-07, 03:25 PM	I seem to recall that DvR 0 deities can't grant spells. Can anyone refresh my memory on that? the spell-like abilities and domain abilities that they can use at will are from those domains that they can grant. DvR 0 quasi-deities cannot grant spells or domains, and thus have zero SLAs or Domain Abilities to be used at will.
Bob the Efreet 02-15-07, 04:14 PM	a quasi deity with a rank of zero has an LA of +18 and each rank adds a +2 to the LA of the character. That's ridiculous. So you feel that a group of 1st-level quasi-deities could take on a molydeus? I hope that DR 10/epic will make up for the tank having 13 hp.
Amon_WinterfallIV 02-16-07, 06:40 PM	Part of the problem here is the opportunity cost of becoming a quasi-deity: Obviously, a Fighter 1 Demigod is going to be very hard for a CR 5 to handle. But I think that Quasi-deity deity status should require 15th level minimum. If we accept this requirement, then we can look again at the demigods abilities: Speed +30' (definitely nifty) Deflection bonus to AC = Charisma Bonus (Same ballpark as divine Grace for the paladin) Immunities (Definitely useful) DR 10/Epic (Might be useful for a couple levels, and only a couple levels) Fire Resistance 5 (Worthless) SR 32 (Hard to beat for a 15th level caster, but not unstoppable for a higher level character) Aligned Damage LA +4, maximum. Possibly +3. Ask yourselves, how many levels would trade for being a quasi-deity? Probably not more than 4, and maybe only 3.
ciryx2k 02-16-07, 08:41 PM	I thank you all on your input. I knew this was gonna be a nightmare when I thought of it, but I see now that it's even worse than I expected. I was planning on heading in this direction when the players reach around level 15 with an actual ascension somewhere around 17ish. I think the DvR 0 is a good idea to start with, maybe with some modifications or such. I think a good place to start would be to ask this question: Is a lich as powerful as a DvR 0 quasi-diety? They both have the same LA. I think this would be a good compare/contrast scenario to try and settle things: DvR 0 Max HP per HD Speed increase +30 (for medium creatures) Deflection bonus to AC = Cha bonus Wielded weapons deal aligned dmg +2 synergy bonus per 20 ranks Immune to polymorph, petrification, form-altering attacks, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects DR 10/epic fire resistance 5 SR 32 Immortal, does not age, eat, sleep, or breathe Compare to: Lich All HD become d12's +5 natural armor bonus Touch attack for 1d8+5 dmg (will save for half) Fear Aura Paralyzing Touch +4 turn resistance DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic Natural weapons treated as Magic for DR Immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, and energy drain +2 to Int, Wis, Cha +8 to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot Immortal, does not age, eat, sleep, or breathe Does everyone think these are close to each other, or is one better than the other? To be honest, just as a template, liches seem more powerful. There are only two places where quasi-deities win. Max HP per die, but this can be counter balanced by having d12's no matter what class (depending on the class of the base creature). Also, SR 32 isn't something to shake a stick at, but at levels 15+ (especially epic level) this is something that can be gotten past a good amount of times. Heck, if you're a level 22 caster and take the feat that lets you take 10 on CL checks, you ignore it 100% of the time. What is everyone else's opinion?
ray53208 02-16-07, 09:48 PM	witch: the stat bumps are from the deities & demigods FAQ. like i stated in the earlier post. but if these bonuses arent applied, then a lower LA might be applicable, but definitly NOT +3. granted, 20 outsider HD are needed for the natural armor bonus. there is no real official rule about a Quasi-Deity template, but nothing states a change in type. it might be waranted to consider outsider or native outsider. the DR/epic is not pointless. while some epic monsters will be able to overcome it, it still effects any lesser foes. im going to go do some serious playtesting with the template. see what a 1st level human fighter with the template can handle. ill report my findings.
ciryx2k 02-16-07, 11:31 PM	witch: the stat bumps are from the deities & demigods FAQ. like i stated in the earlier post. but if these bonuses arent applied, then a lower LA might be applicable, but definitly NOT +3. granted, 20 outsider HD are needed for the natural armor bonus. there is no real official rule about a Quasi-Deity template, but nothing states a change in type. it might be waranted to consider outsider or native outsider. the DR/epic is not pointless. while some epic monsters will be able to overcome it, it still effects any lesser foes. im going to go do some serious playtesting with the template. see what a 1st level human fighter with the template can handle. ill report my findings. Excellent idea. I don't have much free time to do things like this. One interesting idea would be to create two level one chars. Make the base char the same thing and then add the DvR 0 template to one and a lich template to the other. Have them go at eachother several times and see what happens. Just a thought, heck, I might even be able to try this myself if I can find the time.
Witch 02-17-07, 06:56 AM	witch: the stat bumps are from the deities & demigods FAQ. like i stated in the earlier post. but if these bonuses arent applied, then a lower LA might be applicable, but definitly NOT +3. You don't automatically get the stat bumps if you apply DvR 0 to a creature. That's completely optional. I never said LA +3. I said CR +3, translating to LA +6. granted, 20 outsider HD are needed for the natural armor bonus. there is no real official rule about a Quasi-Deity template, but nothing states a change in type. it might be waranted to consider outsider or native outsider. Even if your type changes to outsider, you won't be having 20 Outsider HD in general. the DR/epic is not pointless. while some epic monsters will be able to overcome it, it still effects any lesser foes. Lesser foes will generally die anyway. Personally, I'd not go as far as getting the lich a higher LA than quasideity. There's no need for that.
ray53208 02-17-07, 09:23 PM	so far ive created 4 1st level characters: all human, using the standard array, a fighter, a rogue, a wizard, a cleric, all with basic equipment. ive applied the template for DvR 0 to them all, no stat bumbs from template. for a regular 1st level party of four a CR 1 ecounter should eat up 20% of their resources. each CR above that takes up 20% more. a CR 5 should, in theory, achieve total party destruction. ive been testing them against cr 5 encounters. ive applied a constant average roll assumption (ALL rolls will be the average result). not much is able to get past the DR. about a quarter of the time the party wins, another quarter the party loses, and about half the time its a draw. the battles are usually very long and drawn out. i upped the CR... i tested them against human fighters from levels 5 to 12. as written in the DMG they can only be beaten by the 12th level human fighter in a long battle. with a slight change in equipment (lose the shield, gain a great sword, make it a +1), it takes an 8th level human fighter to beat the team in the same time. these are the bare minimums to defeat the party. the CR of a human PC-classed NPC is equal to its level. with only this data to go by, the LA is somewhere from +4 to +8. more testing is underway... if i were to apply the stat bumps granted to deities the LAs would be much greater. it is not unreasonable to apply them to quasi-deities. they are described as usually possessing one or more stats way above normal for thier race.
Starmage21 02-17-07, 09:50 PM	so far ive created 4 1st level characters: all human, using the standard array, a fighter, a rogue, a wizard, a cleric, all with basic equipment. ive applied the template for DvR 0 to them all, no stat bumbs from template. for a regular 1st level party of four a CR 1 ecounter should eat up 20% of their resources. each CR above that takes up 20% more. a CR 5 should, in theory, achieve total party destruction. ive been testing them against cr 5 encounters. ive applied a constant average roll assumption (ALL rolls will be the average result). not much is able to get past the DR. about a quarter of the time the party wins, another quarter the party loses, and about half the time its a draw. the battles are usually very long and drawn out. i upped the CR... i tested them against human fighters from levels 5 to 12. as written in the DMG they can only be beaten by the 12th level human fighter in a long battle. with a slight change in equipment (lose the shield, gain a great sword, make it a +1), it takes an 8th level human fighter to beat the team in the same time. these are the bare minimums to defeat the party. the CR of a human PC-classed NPC is equal to its level. with only this data to go by, the LA is somewhere from +4 to +8. more testing is underway... if i were to apply the stat bumps granted to deities the LAs would be much greater. it is not unreasonable to apply them to quasi-deities. they are described as usually possessing one or more stats way above normal for thier race. If youre doing this using any sort of digital means, save your data. Acid Testing templates isnt done very often, so what you come up with will be important for everyone.
ray53208 02-19-07, 04:13 AM	the testing continues... the party faced off against some CR 5 monsters. they beat a troll, but got torn up by a weretiger. against CR 8 monsters they faired much worse. an illithid defeated them in one turn (is the mind blast considered a mind affecting ability?), the bodok decimated the party with its death gaze, and the ogre mage TPKed with a cone of cold in the first round. against CR 7 they did better. they beat a medusa in 5 rounds, managed a narrow victory against an umber hulk in 11 rounds, got trounced in 6 rounds by a hill giant, and it was a draw against a succubus (unless she summons a vrock who beat them with spores and claws). with this data i would guesstimate the LA at closer to +4 than +8.
ray53208 02-21-07, 03:25 PM	incorporeal undead are no threat, and cannot be harmed by the test party. so they are all a draw. vampire spawn got the smack down, but sample vampire in the mm tore the party a new one with its weapons.
savant_warlord13 02-21-07, 04:30 PM	The book Dieities and Demi Gods while not stating how to level advance a group of dieties, however they do give a tool and that is divine rank. When I did an ascendancy campaign I decided that in order to increase in divine rank the character would need to gain so many followers. This acutally worked very well and while I have since lost the table I believe it broke down as follows To attain divine rank 0 (godhood) a pc had to make a lasting and memorable change in the world. As the DM you can be very flexible or extremly regimented about what this means. To gain rank 1 divine status the new godling must amass 1000 worshipers. For rank 2 he would need 3000 followers For rank 3 he would need 6000 followers For rank 4 he would need 12000 followers etc. While it may seem a steep incline to gain additional Divine Ranks you must remember that gods need followers and that even though it is only a rank or two these ranks can be huge. I hope that gives you some direction and I would be more than happy to help further if you want. Shoot me a PM or email. That doesn't sound like enough worshippers to me. I would stick another 0 on the end of all of those. Although I suppose it would depend on the population of the world in your campaign.
ray53208 02-22-07, 03:00 PM	as far as ascending in deity rank from 0 to 1: it is reasonable (IF you allow devine PCs) to require that a rank 0 must at least gain 20 levels before attempting to become rank 1. the description of the outsider type states that sometimes creatures start of as one type and become outsiders. is it then feasable that a creature with divine ranks might be able to take outsider HD instead of class levels? for someone who is born on the material plane i think native outsider is applicable.
Bluehero 02-22-07, 09:55 PM	I'm currently running a campaign in which the players are deities. They are all above rank 0, and so far its going very well. One thing that I learned pretty quickly is that you shoudln't worry to much about balance as far as the abstract system of LA goes. That sort of breaks down at level 40+. The key to encounters at this level si tyhat you can throw anything at the players and count on them to make a solution. The paragon template gets used alot, and battles become more based on if one side has a skill the other wasn't prepared to counter. It's kind of hard to challenge players in combat without an enemy that might be a bit too powerful, but thats what greater teleport at will and contingent true ressurection are for. I would also suggest not giving out experience anymore, but more of a more divine ranks by more worshipers kind of thing.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-23-07, 02:38 AM	I'm currently running a campaign in which the players are deities. They are all above rank 0, and so far its going very well. One thing that I learned pretty quickly is that you shoudln't worry to much about balance as far as the abstract system of LA goes. That sort of breaks down at level 40+. The key to encounters at this level si tyhat you can throw anything at the players and count on them to make a solution. The paragon template gets used alot, and battles become more based on if one side has a skill the other wasn't prepared to counter. It's kind of hard to challenge players in combat without an enemy that might be a bit too powerful, but thats what greater teleport at will and contingent true ressurection are for. I would also suggest not giving out experience anymore, but more of a more divine ranks by more worshipers kind of thing. Hmm... That's actually a cool solution to the epic system. Rather than advance by class levels until level n+1, you can cut down on the epic leveling and just give them DR for epic achievements. I'll have to try that one out if I ever get a high-level campaign going.
LordKandis 02-23-07, 01:52 PM	DR 0 grants the following: Maximum hit points per Hit Die. Base land speed increases to that from the table below, existing burrow and swim speeds increase to match the biped land speed, an existing fly speed increases to double the quadraped land speed: Size Biped Quadraped Fine 20' 60' Diminutive 30' 70' Tiny 40' 80' Small 50' 90' Medium 60' 100' Large 80' 120' Huge 100' 140' Gargantuan 120' 160' Colossal 140' 180' A deflection bonus to AC equal to Charisma bonus (if any). Wielded weapons and natural weapons deal aligned damage, matching the character's alignment. For every 20 ranks in a skill, synergy bonuses increase by +2. Immunity to polymorphing, petrification, any form-altering attack (unless self-induced), energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, and mind-affecting effects. These immunities only work against attackers with lower Divine Rank. DR 10/epic. This does not stack with other damage reduction. Fire resistance 5 + Divine Rank. Spell resistance 32 + Divine Rank. Use of all granted domain spells as spell-like abilities at will. Effective caster level is 10 + Divine Rank. Save DC is 10 + spell level + Cha bonus + Divine Rank. Immortal (cannot die from natural causes). Does not age, does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe.. I would like to point out that the bolded isn't something granted by DvR 0, but a benefit from having high ranks in a skill, as per the ELH, pg 38: Skill Synergy. And in most cases, someone with DvR 0 should likely be either very close to, or already epic, which reduces the effectiveness of the DR, SR, and fire resistance. And ray53208, I'm curious how an ogre mage could TPK someone with DvR 0 with a spell, since he can't penetrate the SR?
ray53208 02-23-07, 02:15 PM	not all spells are halted by SR, but you are indeed correct. youve dicovered the main flaw of playing 12 hours straight into the wee hours of the morning. ill rerun that scenario and see what happens. i would also encourage others to run that test as well and compare notes.
LordKandis 02-23-07, 02:28 PM	True, mistakes can crop up. I'd run one, but I'm already doing a test, and have found that 3 gelugons will slaughter a 16th level party when the party doesn't have any holy weapons.