Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tarascon 03-10-07, 03:32 PM	Okay, I have a question that's been gnawing away at me for a while now. Just exactly what is the connection between elves, eladrin, and the fae? I mean, did the elves come from faerie, are the leshie their equivalent of titans? I'm just confused here man. If anybody can give me some solid answers (or theories), I'd be much obliged.
ripvanwormer 03-10-07, 03:52 PM	The elven pantheon, according to Planes of Chaos, originated in Ysgard and later entered Arborea, driving most of the giant pantheon out in order to take their lands. The elves are said to have been born from the blood Corellon Larethian spilled when he fought Gruumsh, mingled with Sehanine's light. There's no firm connection between elves and leShay. Some believe they might be related, but there's no proof of this. Some campaign settings postulate a connection between elves and fey. In the Birthright setting, there was originally a race called the Sie who split into the faerie and elven races when the world was sundered between Aebrynis and its Shadow. In Green Ronin's The Book of The Righteous, elves are descendents of those div of the Sidhe tribe who elected to give up their immortality rather than their free will after the war with the gods; the fey are those who gave up their free will rather than their immortality. Some of the elves of Faerun came from a world called Faerie. There's no connection at all between elves and eladrins - less than the connection between drow and tanar'ri, and about the same as the connection between slaadi and mortal frogs, or that between hound archons and mortal dogs, or baatezu and gargoyles. Eladrins do not serve the elven pantheon, nor any gods for that matter. Elves do not become eladrins after they die - eladrins are an independent race with no known connection to mortal souls. Eladrins are native to Arborea, while the elven pantheon is native to Ysgard. They have no connection of blood, soul, or fealty. Some eladrins superficially resemble elves, but some don't. It's probable that before the Seldarine conquered Arvandor, eladrins superficially resembled giants instead.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-07, 03:52 PM	The elves were created by the first members of the Seldarine, who themselves (since gods are formed from mortal belief) already existed from some earlier pantheon. Their elven appearance probably modeled itself on the form they gave the first elves, or the belief of those first elves subsequently molded the Seldarine into their current form. The Eladrin likely have no connection whatsoever to the elves or the Seldarine. If anything, it's plausible that the Seldarine took inspiration for the elves from the Eladrin who were there in Arborea already when they arrived on its first layer from Ysgard. That said, the Eladrin might be subtley influenced in their current forms by the fey of the prime material, either as a result of the prime material's molding of aspects of Arborea, or the unknown primordial creators of the Eladrin having been inspired by them. The LeShay might have been one of the earliest forms of fey, perhaps one of the first races of the prime material, or they might be refugees from another multiverse, a collapsed/dead timeline from the early Great Wheel, or the last inhabitants of a dead timeline from a possible future of the Great Wheel (perhaps in that now nonexistant future they were the enemies of the Illithids). This is all speculation mind you, and there's literally nothing on them outside of a paragraph or two in the ELH (though one recent FR novel suggests that the LeShay had some influence on the early Imaskari civilization on Toril).
Alpha_Moose 03-10-07, 04:14 PM	Kind of off topic, but what about humans? Every other race has some god that made them, but humans seemed to just pop out of nowhere. Even the 'human god' from Races of Destiny wasn't the creator of them, just that he was one who became a god. Sorry if I hijacked the thread.
ripvanwormer 03-10-07, 04:42 PM	Lots of deities take credit for creating humans: Ptah, Odin, Enki, Izanagi, Coyote, Quetzalcoatl, and Prometheus are just a few. The Dragonlance campaign says that humans are descended from those souls who embraced neutrality rather than good or evil (the original good souls became elves, while the evil souls became ogres). I believe the first elven bodies on Krynn were made from trees, humans from clay, and ogres from stone. The Scarred Lands setting gives a few titans that might be responsible for the creation of humans, but leaves things ambiguous. In The Book of The Righteous, humans hatched from a fruit of the Tree of Life. Races of Destiny gives a few more myths. Two separate myths say humanity was created by a number of deities acting in concert, including Corellon and Moradin. Another says that humans were created accidently by a dwarf who fell in the mud on a snowy hill (I'd use Muamman Duathal, the dwarven god of travel). There's also the myth of Vashar in the Book of Vile Darkness, which also credits humanity to creation by committee. Every pantheon will have its own creation myth. The Seldarine is only one elven pantheon; the elves of Krynn have a different creation myth, and the elves of Aebrynis (who worship no gods) have another. The worshipers of the Yuir pantheon, when it existed, probably had another still. Humans aren't remarkable in that respect. The "creation by committee" myths are probably common in those human pantheons, like the core one, who lack a specific creator deity, but in other human pantheons it's common for a single or small group of gods to be responsible for the creation of humanity.
leather_book_wizard 03-10-07, 06:38 PM	I actually have a human racial god in my campaign, because humans never have their own god. He is called the Distant One, because he doesn't interact with his followers. The elves in my campaign were created by the god Kientol from a tree and a crystal. Humans were grains of sand in the Hourglass of Time that got spilled on the floor.
ripvanwormer 03-10-07, 06:46 PM	Part of the problem, I think, is that people are thinking of Corellon Larethian and Moradin as "racial gods," but for some reason not thinking of Pelor or Lathander that way. Corellon and Moradin are the heads of entire pantheons. Just as Pelor is part of a larger human pantheon, Corellon is part of a larger elven pantheon. It's the same with Zeus, Odin, and Izanagi. There is nothing special or unusual in the way that human gods are treated.
leather_book_wizard 03-10-07, 06:51 PM	But it says in the PHB that only dwarves can become clerics of Moradin, only elves can be clerics of Corellon Larethian,etc. No such restriction on Pelor, Wee Jas, etc. That is probably why people think of Corellon, Moradin, Garl, etc. as being "racial" gods. Wow. Three etc's in one post. Four if you count the last one.
ripvanwormer 03-10-07, 09:02 PM	In that sense, there is something unusual about the way human gods are treated - for practical reasons, nonhumans are allowed to become clerics of the ones in the PHb (practical because otherwise, nonhuman clerics wouldn't have any choice in their deity selection in campaigns that use only the PHb gods). But rules restrictions aside, Pelor, Wee Jas, Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, and so on are very much human "racial" gods, tied to specifically human cultures (Flan, Suel, Oeridian, and Common, respectively). Nonhuman pantheons have their own equivalents of these deities - elves have Araleth Letheranil instead of Pelor, Sehanine Moonbow instead of Wee Jas, Corellon Larethian instead of Heironeous, and Shevarash instead of St. Cuthbert, for example.
ripvanwormer 03-10-07, 10:15 PM	The elves in my campaign were created by the god Kientol from a tree and a crystal. Humans were grains of sand in the Hourglass of Time that got spilled on the floor. I think these myths are really cool, by the way.
leather_book_wizard 03-11-07, 11:37 AM	I think these myths are really cool, by the way. Thank you.
Treymordin 03-13-07, 07:10 PM	Depending of the campaign the history of the elves is different. The elves of Dragonlance, for example were created by Paladine as the favored races of the gods of good or the gods of light as they are sometimes known.
Tarascon 03-18-07, 11:25 PM	From what I have gathered, here is my THEORY. Note the capitalizing of THEORY, you cutters. If you have any suggestions to it, please comment. >The Beginning of Time >The Creation of the Prime Material Plane >Faerie forms as a direct result of the creation of the Prime Material Plane. >Various primal spirits inhabit Faerie. Some will stay and manifest as LeShay, the first Oberon and Titania, and other powerful fey forces. Others, much like Outsiders, will begin to their ascension to godhood. Among these are the primal Seldarine. >The creators of the eladrin, aeons or luminals or whatever you want to call them, base the eladrin off the fey. As an alternate theory, the eladrin see the fey and alter their forms to match them. >The primal Seldarine arrive at Ysgard. They base their and their servant's shapes(the elves) on the eladrins. >The Seldarine move to Arborea, driving out the Jotun gods and sending them to Ysgard or wherever. As an interesting side note, it could be the primal giant gods referred to are in fact the Titans, and that the Seldarine agreed to assist the Olympians, planning to share the Plane. Mind you this is just a THEORY. There, I said it again.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-20-07, 07:12 AM	There's no firm connection between elves and leShay. Some believe they might be related, but there's no proof of this. Actually, if you look closely at their stats, you'll see that the leshay ARE elves; The only reason why they don't have the "elf" subtype is because they aren't humanoids.
Doom_Linnorm 03-20-07, 09:11 AM	My elf origin story is through... well you could call it evolution. (or de-evolution) A few of my cultures have a very darwinistic aproach to reproduction, organizing people into so called "Breeding Pools", each of these races have several tribes that select people based on certain traits, but it does happen that an individual is born with less desirable traits. Among trolls, tusk size, tail length and ear size were all important factors for desirable looks, Trolls born with smaller tusks, shorter tails and smaller ears were undesirable and thus could only obtain the right to mate with other undesirable mates. Over centuries of inbreeding in these "lesser trolls" a race was born that called themselves the Lynians, these already resembled elves but still had decent length tails and long ears. They had established a culture in the far north away from their ancestors. The Lynians began a blossoming alliance with the Dacians (a lizardfolk culture) and as Lynian culture thrived, old systems fell back into place and the Lynians also started selective breeding. The weakest were again cast out of society and these "inbreeding mongrels" scattered across the globe to the forested islands in the south, the dark caverns of the gloom, the scorching desert and the steaming jungle valleys up north. Thousands of years later the first great elf kingdoms rose. Elves hate and are equaly hated by their ancestors, both Lynians and Trolls. A simple myth around their origin tells of three brothers, the eldest being a Troll, the youngest being an Elf and the middle being a Lynian and their history of hatred for eachother. Ofcourse I hate elves so my story is a little biased against them, but most of my players seem to like it, and also like my brand of trolls.
CantripN 03-20-07, 05:11 PM	I always thought elves were a disease... You become one when bitten or when spawned by such a abomination.
Rohano 03-20-07, 10:25 PM	As D&D elves came directly out of LOTR, I would say that elves used to be a race of demigods (outsiders) during the ages when fae creatures ruled, but after several conflicts, they were driven from paradise and spread across the lands like a great windstorm (a windstorm that carried their mighty galleons), eventually becoming high elves (the elves retaining the most "divinity"), gray elves, dark elves, wood elves, and even elves that look like humans. It was a long time after the elves built their numerous nations (built around their subrace, usually) that they met humans and dwarves, who were intrigued by the elves but the elves weren't very kind to strangers (especially since they consider the acts of one person to reflect on his entire race; after human warlords tried to conquer the elves, their impression of the entire human species dimmed). For more information, see The Silmarillion. Using the Greyhawk/core cosmology, I believe the elves were descendents of fae and considered themselves fae for many eons before the wars with the orcs began (and the elves began to identify more with their heroes, like Corellon, rather than their distant Saelie Court).
Alpha_Moose 03-21-07, 03:18 PM	As D&D elves came directly out of LOTR, I would say that elves used to be a race of demigods (outsiders) during the ages when fae creatures ruled, but after several conflicts, they were driven from paradise and spread across the lands like a great windstorm (a windstorm that carried their mighty galleons), eventually becoming high elves (the elves retaining the most "divinity"), gray elves, dark elves, wood elves, and even elves that look like humans. It was a long time after the elves built their numerous nations (built around their subrace, usually) that they met humans and dwarves, who were intrigued by the elves but the elves weren't very kind to strangers (especially since they consider the acts of one person to reflect on his entire race; after human warlords tried to conquer the elves, their impression of the entire human species dimmed). For more information, see The Silmarillion. Ah, Silmarillion. Probably my favorite book. The elves were the first children of Eru that were awakened during the Age of Stars.:teach: The Valar (god) Orome found the elves but some were afraid of him and fled into the shadows (they became orcs). Some of the elves followed him to Valinor (the Eldar) but others stayed behind (the Sindar, Avari, and Silvan). The Noldor, led by Feanor, went back to Middle Earth after the theft of the jewels to take them back from Melkor (now called Morgoth). The humans (second children of Eru) woke after that and were basically screwed by the actions of the Noldor and Morgoth. They never met the Valar and were surrounded by constant warfare. Tolkien said that elves were biologically the same as men (hence why they can mate), but the elves were like the perfect versions of men. Tolkien elves make D&D elves look like pansy French acrobats. Look at the link to D&D LotR in my sig to see how the Noldor actually would be (they get divine rank, because of their awesomeness). Sorry if I said too much. I just love the Tolkien mythos. P.S. If you want more info on Tolkien, go to www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/. It has all the relevant information. P.P.S Thanks for the info on humans rip. I knew some of the 'real' myths, and I was wondering on the D&D myths. So do all the pantheons from real life exist in D&D or something?
ripvanwormer 03-21-07, 03:54 PM	The elves were created by the first members of the Seldarine, who themselves (since gods are formed from mortal belief) already existed from some earlier pantheon. One possibility is that the leShay were the people who originally worshiped the Seldarine. In that case, the Seldarine would have always looked more or less elflike. Perhaps the Seldarine are deified leShay. The myth of faerie origins from the 0D&D sourcebook Tall Tales of the Wee Folk might be instructive. Put in generic terms, it told of a story between the Great Powers of a previous multiverse, who clashed in a final Armegeddon, destroying the planes. When the multiverse was being recreated (in the image of those who survived the death of the previous multiverse), those who stood on the sidelines during the war, refusing to commit to any faction (even that of neutrality) were cast down from their former divine status, becoming the first of the fey. One thing I was trying to hint at earlier is the possibility that the myth of elven creation from the blood of Corellon may have no more intrinsic validity than the myth that humans were created from clay by Epimethius and his brother Prometheus. It's simply one myth out of many, and other elven cultures have other myths to explain where they came from.
ripvanwormer 03-21-07, 03:57 PM	P.P.S Thanks for the info on humans rip. I knew some of the 'real' myths, and I was wondering on the D&D myths. So do all the pantheons from real life exist in D&D or something? All of the ones I mentioned do. The Aztec, Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Krynnish pantheons are all thought to exist somewhere in the D&D planes.
ripvanwormer 03-21-07, 07:45 PM	To be more specific, the Aztec pantheon is worshiped on Oerth (the world of Greyhawk), and the Egyptian and Babylonian pantheons are worshiped in the Forgotten Realms. Epimethius lives in Bytopia, Coyote dwells in a demiplane attached to the Beastlands (depending on the source), Ptah wanders the Ethereal Plane, and Izanagi dwells in Arcadia. Enki is dead, but formally had a realm in Mechanus (or a plane called Zigguraxus in the 3e Forgotten Realms cosmology).
Alpha_Moose 03-21-07, 08:10 PM	To be more specific, the Aztec pantheon is worshiped on Oerth (the world of Greyhawk), and the Egyptian and Babylonian pantheons are worshiped in the Forgotten Realms. Epimethius lives in Bytopia, Coyote dwells in a demiplane attached to the Beastlands (depending on the source), Ptah wanders the Ethereal Plane, and Izanagi dwells in Arcadia. Enki is dead, but formally had a realm in Mechanus (or a plane called Zigguraxus in the 3e Forgotten Realms cosmology). What about the Norse pantheon, like Odin and Thor? And even though I doubt it, is there any Judeo-Christian things ever mentioned? I don't really think they would put in Jesus, but they might have Micheal or Lucifer. And didn't St. Cuthbert go to earth for some reason once? Isn't he human? [/lot's o' questions]
Shemeska the Marauder 03-21-07, 08:16 PM	What about the Norse pantheon, like Odin and Thor? And even though I doubt it, is there any Judeo-Christian things ever mentioned? I don't really think they would put in Jesus, but they might have Micheal or Lucifer. And didn't St. Cuthbert go to earth for some reason once? Isn't he human? [/lot's o' questions] Yes the Norse pantheon is in D&D, many of them in the plane of Ysgard, sandwiched between Limbo and Arborea. Loki inhabits a domain in Pandemonium, etc. The various "real world" pantheons that have been part of the D&D multiverse are those which either (for all intents and purposes) are dead religions, or whose worshippers (Vedic pantheon) aren't part of D&D's target demographic to any amount that would cause marketing or PR headaches. Thus Judaism, Xtianity, and Islam haven't been included, though some names of lesser beings and monsters have been snagged, but YHWH hasn't been given a divine domain in Elysium or anything like that. The St. Cuthbert of D&D shares a name with the historical St. Cuthbert, but they're not the same individual.
Alpha_Moose 03-21-07, 08:24 PM	Yes the Norse pantheon is in D&D, many of them in the plane of Ysgard, sandwiched between Limbo and Arborea. Loki inhabits a domain in Pandemonium, etc. The various "real world" pantheons that have been part of the D&D multiverse are those which either (for all intents and purposes) are dead religions, or whose worshippers (Vedic pantheon) aren't part of D&D's target demographic to any amount that would cause marketing or PR headaches. Thus Judaism, Xtianity, and Islam haven't been included, though some names of lesser beings and monsters have been snagged, but YHWH hasn't been given a divine domain in Elysium or anything like that. Yeah, that makes sense. I was probably hoping too much. The Nine Hells and Seven Hills of Celestia do seem like they're taken from Dante's divine comedy. The St. Cuthbert of D&D shares a name with the historical St. Cuthbert, but they're not the same individual. Ok. I remember hearing somewhere on the board that there was an adventure where the PCs go to earth to get his mace or something. I could just be making up stuff though.
ripvanwormer 03-21-07, 08:51 PM	Ok. I remember hearing somewhere on the board that there was an adventure where the PCs go to earth to get his mace or something. That adventure was in Dragon Magazine #100. Yes, he went to London to hide his mace in a museum. However, the adventure doesn't say he's native to our world, just that he went there in the 1920s or thereabouts.
The Ubbergeek 03-22-07, 12:23 PM	Elves in Warcraft are rumored by some scholars to came from trolls (the night elves, who themselves gave birth to the high elves - and so the blood ones), that could be an idea. Work well with elves fans and those damn evil elf haters *cruses them*. :P