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| 18DELTA01-25-08, 11:52 PM | -This is the pit fiend in 4th Edition!!! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080125):eek: Last month, I shared the elf racial entry from the upcoming 4th Edition Player's Handbook with you. It went over so well that I thought I'd do something like it again this month. This time, though, I've decided to dive into the Monster Manual files and see how that book is coming along. Just today, for example, Mike Mearls and I finished reviewing every minion and swarm in the book, making sure that the rules for these are clear, concise, and easy to use at the table. I was going to show you one of those, but while they're all cool and great for the game, they aren't anywhere near the sexiest monsters in the book. No, I want to share with you something meaty, something substantial, and something well and truly at the top of the pile of D&D monsters. Something new won't work for this purpose, since I want you to be able to compare the 3E version to the 4th Edition version if you have a desire to make such a comparison. For all these reasons and more (and because the art sketch by Arnie Swekel is just wonderful), I've settled on the pit fiend. Here's the entry from the new Monster Manual in all its current glory. Enjoy! PIT FIEND Nobles of the Nine Hells, pit fiends form an elite ruling class that oversees vast numbers of lesser devils. Only the archdevils known as the Lords of the Nine stand higher than the pit fiends. Each pit fiend is lord of a large domain within one of the layers of the Nine Hells and is vassal to the archdevil who rules that layer. A pit fiend might govern a city, command a fortress, lead a great legion, or serve as a seneschal or counselor for an archdevil. With the exception of Asmodeus, each Lord of the Nine commands no more than a dozen or so pit fiends. As the lords, barons, viziers, and generals of the Nine Hells, pit fiends rarely confront adventurers in person. They are the progenitors of devilish schemes, and they step in only when important plans go awry or when great plots reach fruition. In the Nine Hells proper, pit fiends command vast numbers of lesser devils. Penetrating the defenses of a pit fiend's castle and destroying the mighty devil in its own demesne is a deed of truly epic proportions. Description This hulking devil stands 12 feet tall and has red scales, leathery wings, and a long whiplike tail. It carries a massive mace and wears an ornate breastplate decorated with evil runes and symbols. Pit Fiend Level 26 Elite Soldier (Leader) Large immortal humanoid (devil) XP 18,000 Initiative +22 Senses Perception +23; darkvision Aura of Fear (Fear) aura 5; enemies in the aura take a –2 penalty on attack rolls. Aura of Fire (Fire) aura 5; enemies that enter or start their turns in the aura take 15 fire damage. HP 350; Bloodied 175 AC 44; Fortitude 42, Reflex 38, Will 40 Resist 30 fire, 15 poison Saving Throws +2 Speed 12, fly 12 (clumsy), teleport 10 Action Points 1 Melee Flametouched Mace (standard; at-will) • Fire, Weapon Reach 2; +31 vs. AC; 1d12+11 fire damage plus ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends). Melee Tail Sting (standard; at-will) • Poison +31 vs. AC; 1d6+11 damage, and the pit fiend may make a free followup attack. Followup: +29 vs. Fortitude; ongoing 15 poison damage, and the target is weakened (save ends both effects). Melee Pit Fiend Frenzy (standard; at-will) The pit fiend makes a flametouched mace attack and a tail sting attack. Ranged Point of Terror (minor; at-will) • Fear Range 5; +30 vs. Will; the target takes a –5 penalty to all defenses until the end of the pit fiend's next turn. Ranged Irresistible Command (minor 1/round; at-will) • Charm, Fire Range 10; affects one allied devil of lower level than the pit fiend; the target immediately slides up to 5 squares and explodes, dealing 2d10+5 fire damage to all creatures in a close burst 2. The exploding devil is destroyed. Infernal Summons (standard; encounter) • Conjuration The pit fiend summons a group of devil allies. Summoned devils roll initiative to determine when they act in the initiative order and gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls as long as the pit fiend is alive. They remain until they are killed, dismissed by the pit fiend (free action), or the encounter ends. PCs do not earn experience points for killing these summoned creatures. The pit fiend chooses to summon one of the following groups of devils: 8 legion devil legionnaires (level 21), or 2 war devils (level 22), or 1 war devil (level 22) and 4 legion devil legionnaires (level 21) Tactical Teleport (standard; recharge 4 5 6) • Teleportation The pit fiend can teleport up to 2 allies within 10 squares of it. The targets appear in any other unoccupied squares within 10 squares of the pit fiend. Alignment Evil Languages Supernal Skills Bluff +27, Intimidate +27, Religion +24 Str 32 (+24) Dex 24 (+20) Wis 20 (+18) Con 27 (+21) Int 22 (+19) Cha 28 (+22) Equipment flametouched mace, noble signet ring Pit Fiend Tactics A pit fiend fights close to its enemies, catching them in its aura of fear and aura of fire. On the first round of combat, it spends an action point to use infernal summons. It then uses point of terror against a tough-looking foe and tactical teleport to place two allies in flanking positions around that foe. With its remaining minor action, the pit fiend uses irresistible command on an ally within range. A pit fiend alternates between point of terror and irresistible command, sometimes using both if it has a spare move action it can replace with a minor action. Otherwise, the pit fiend uses pit fiend frenzy, teleporting as needed to gain a better position. A pit fiend does not sacrifice its life needlessly and makes a tactical retreat if death is imminent. Pit Fiend Lore A character knows the following information with a successful Religion check: DC 25: Pit fiends are the nobles of the Nine Hells. Each pit fiend serves as a vassal to one of the nine archdevils and commands a fortress, city, or army in its master's domain. DC 30: Once every 99 years, a pit fiend can grant a mortal's wish by performing a terrible ritual. Only the most powerful and promising of mortals are offered such a temptation. DC 35: Well-known pit fiends include Baalzephon, one of the powerful circle of pit fiends known as the Dark Eight; Gazra, who governs the city of Abriymoch in Phlegethos, the Fourth Hell; and Baalberith, the major-domo of the palace of Asmodeus. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What else is going on around here right now? The Player's Handbook is in Typesetting, and we're poring over the galleys to make every last improvement we can before it goes to print. The Monster Manual is in its last two weeks of Managing Editing, the stage right before it goes into Typesetting. And the Dungeon Master's Guide is about to leave Editing and enter its Managing Editing stage. So, from a certain point of view, the end of the process is in sight. At the same time, all kinds of other things are in process or just beginning. For example, our Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and Player's Guide have just entered Development, and Design is underway on a number of projects -- many of which I can't talk about just yet. As for D&D Insider, maybe I'll take some time next month to talk about how the digital initiative is shaping up. Meanwhile, I need to select monsters from this wonderful Monster Manual file for my game tomorrow night. Let's see if Biggy Small and company can get out of this one -- bwaHAHA! Until then ... Keep playing! --Bill Slavicsek About the Author Bill Slavicsek is the R&D Director for Roleplaying Games, Miniatures, and Book Publishing at Wizards of the Coast. All of the game designers, developers, editors, book editors, and D&D Insider content managers working on Dungeons & Dragons, Star Wars, and the WotC Publishing Group report into Bill's R&D team. :plotting: :evillaugh :devil: :schemes: :OMG! 18DELTA:D |
| celestialkin01-26-08, 12:08 AM | I do not have D&D insider, so I can not see it. Can someone please tell me if the thought kawaii would be likely to go threw my head if I saw this image? (I am 100% serious here) |
| Taeldrin Laesrash01-26-08, 01:33 AM | How the hell is that any different from the old pit fiend? (A little more chiseled, but barely!) |
| sciborg301-26-08, 01:44 AM | it doesn't look like a fiend - too human of a face. it seems like a sad attempt to promote their new fiendish standard. it's not as dumb as an earth elemental with a metal helmet, but its still dumb. |
| Space_Dragon01-26-08, 04:56 AM | it doesn't look like a fiend - too human of a face. it seems like a sad attempt to promote their new fiendish standard. it's not as dumb as an earth elemental with a metal helmet, but its still dumb. Um...its a giant red guy with scales, horns, and tusks, along with batlike wings and a bladed tail. How does that not look fiendish enough? Seriously, a red guy with horns doesn't look like a devil to you? |
| Naderion01-26-08, 06:01 AM | It sounds like a new tiefling. Doesn't come anywere near the terrible towering genius of destructions pit fiends have been before. But: There's a 4th Ed. forum for it. |
| Fabius Maximus01-26-08, 08:14 AM | I do not have D&D insider, so I can not see it. Can someone please tell me if the thought kawaii would be likely to go threw my head if I saw this image? (I am 100% serious here) If you have a forum account, you can also log into D&D Insider. And yes, the old Pit Fiends looked very similar. |
| sciborg301-26-08, 10:50 AM | a red guy with horns doesn't look like a devil to you? Nope, looks like Orcus. So much for their supposed fixing of the demon-devil "problem". :rolleyes: |
| Count Arioch the 28th01-26-08, 12:02 PM | The look, I don't have a large issue with. The stats make it look like that the new pit fiends has now been neutered. I don't like the stats one bit. |
| SyndicCalls01-26-08, 12:14 PM | you guys are such pessimists. :P I thought the pit fiend stats were interesting enough. But mainly so I could scan over what they have changed with the new 4E stat blocks. |
| goldomark01-26-08, 02:01 PM | Nope, looks like Orcus. So much for their supposed fixing of the demon-devil "problem". :rolleyes: :rofl: It's funny because it's true. On a more serious note, why does it only bash now? Why no more spells? Yeah, I forgot, to complicated.:rolleyes: |
| Kain_Darkwind01-26-08, 02:40 PM | It's lost much of its magic, and most of its natural attacks. I see no regen, damage reduction, energy resistance (except fire/poison) and so on. However, it occupies an even higher position on the CR totem pole than it did before. If Orcus is in the MM, and the game goes up to 30th level now....this would suggest that 'at best' Orcus is 4 CR higher than a pit fiend. That seems...wrong to me. Even if pit fiends are the new 'Dukes of Hell'. CR 26 doesn't give a whole lot of wiggle room. Even if you assume that every pit fiend is now the same level (Gazra, Dagos, etc), you've now got 4 levels to pack every single Lord of the Nine, Duke of Hell, demon prince, etc, into. It probably would have worked better if they'd kept it at 20, or even lowered it down to 15. A 30th level ceiling doesn't give a ton of room to work with, and this seems like it will lead to the same incongruence as before. "Oh, Bel's aspect is the same CR as a pit fiend, but with weaker natural attacks" "Oh, Juiblex is weaker than a balor" |
| Space_Dragon01-26-08, 03:02 PM | I'm pretty sure CR's will go above thirty. They might have to release a "super epic" handbook, but it will happen. The CR 26 pit fiend assures as much. |
| Kain_Darkwind01-26-08, 04:18 PM | I'm pretty sure CR's will go above thirty. They might have to release a "super epic" handbook, but it will happen. The CR 26 pit fiend assures as much. We can hope, but Orcus has already been confirmed in the MM. So he's operating under non-super-epic constraints. |
| Einvaldurinn_mikli01-26-08, 04:27 PM | We can hope, but Orcus has already been confirmed in the MM. So he's operating under non-super-epic constraints. He could still be higher CR then 30. Just because the characters have reached level 30 doesn't mean that there are no beings in the 'verse more powerful then they are. I'd want him at 34 personally. |
| Space_Dragon01-26-08, 05:44 PM | He could still be higher CR then 30. Just because the characters have reached level 30 doesn't mean that there are no beings in the 'verse more powerful then they are. I'd want him at 34 personally. Good point. The core level cap in 3.5 is level twenty, but there are still monsters in the MM whose challenge ratings go as high as 26 (great red wyrm). Hopefully, this will be the case with Orcus, who I agree should be in the mid thirties. |
| yrogerg01-26-08, 07:28 PM | It's lost much of its magic, and most of its natural attacks. I see no regen, damage reduction, energy resistance (except fire/poison) and so on. However, it occupies an even higher position on the CR totem pole than it did before. On the CR totem pole? No. Remember, PCs in 4e go up to 30, and from the looks of things, will cover roughly the same power range that 3.5 did in 20. This would that the Pit Fiend's been bumped *down* a couple notches in terms of CR. A CR 26 monster is, presumably, equivalent to a CR 17 in 3.5. Though, now that you mention it, I haven't heard a lot of mention of DR, regen or energy resistance among the 4e announcements. As far as magic and redundant attacks, we kinda knew those were vanishing already. Noonan's repeatedly outlined the design goal of paring down the number of spells and SLAs that are just carbon-copies of PHB spells in favor of unique abilities. You can take that as you may, but I, for one, found the MM5 to be a pretty interesting step in that direction, albeit one that was overshadowed by the crap-tacularness of the MM4. If Orcus is in the MM, and the game goes up to 30th level now....this would suggest that 'at best' Orcus is 4 CR higher than a pit fiend. That seems...wrong to me. Even if pit fiends are the new 'Dukes of Hell'. I wouldn't be surprised if Orcus's CR got bumped up a bit, no. CR 26 doesn't give a whole lot of wiggle room. Even if you assume that every pit fiend is now the same level (Gazra, Dagos, etc), you've now got 4 levels to pack every single Lord of the Nine, Duke of Hell, demon prince, etc, into. What other people've said about CRs exceeding 20 in 3.5. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we see a handful CRs potentially reaching as high as 39 |
| Kain_Darkwind01-26-08, 10:58 PM | On the CR totem pole? No. Remember, PCs in 4e go up to 30, and from the looks of things, will cover roughly the same power range that 3.5 did in 20. This would that the Pit Fiend's been bumped *down* a couple notches in terms of CR. A CR 26 monster is, presumably, equivalent to a CR 17 in 3.5. No, this is wrong. 21+ level is still epic in 4e and 3e, so simply because we've expanded the core game to include epic (possibly early epic if you believe that expanded epic is coming), doesn't mean that all CRs should increase by 133%. If you read the flavor, pit fiends are now the new Dukes of Hell. Which is even more problematic if you use the Infernal Aristocracy from recent Dragon articles....where will these Dukes be fitting? Though, now that you mention it, I haven't heard a lot of mention of DR, regen or energy resistance among the 4e announcements. I think energy immunity is being turned into resistance, and if the pit fiend is any indication, the others are being phased out. I'm not saying that is a good or a bad thing, just that it lacks these defenses yet is 26th level now. As far as magic and redundant attacks, we kinda knew those were vanishing already. Noonan's repeatedly outlined the design goal of paring down the number of spells and SLAs that are just carbon-copies of PHB spells in favor of unique abilities. You can take that as you may, but I, for one, found the MM5 to be a pretty interesting step in that direction, albeit one that was overshadowed by the crap-tacularness of the MM4. I liked the MMV mostly. The concern here is more that certain iconic abilities of the creature are gone. Teleport, fireball at will, the ability to grant wishes....they are gone, but not replaced with unique abilities. Other than 'sliding devil bomb'. They kept the poison (but put it in its tail), they kept the fear aura, but they added a flaming aura (ala balors) rather than a fireball ability. Why? As for redundant attacks, are you referring to the natural attack routine that is gone? Or something else? I wouldn't be surprised if Orcus's CR got bumped up a bit, no. What other people've said about CRs exceeding 20 in 3.5. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we see a handful CRs potentially reaching as high as 39 We'll see. I hope you are right about Orcus being mid-high 30s in CR. But it still leaves very little wiggle room for a variety of demon princes, devil lords and dukes to exist with the pit fiend so close to the top. The talk was that epic level characters could kill gods. That puts a pit fiend close to at least presumably a demigod. |
| Alpha_Moose01-27-08, 12:51 AM | No, this is wrong. 21+ level is still epic in 4e and 3e, so simply because we've expanded the core game to include epic (possibly early epic if you believe that expanded epic is coming), doesn't mean that all CRs should increase by 133%. Well we don't entirely know what 'epic' means in 4e. While I don't know if there might be a 'super duper epic' after level 30 (godlike or something) I do think that the levels will not translate directly (level 26th in 3.5 equaling level 26 in 4e). The concern here is more that certain iconic abilities of the creature are gone. Teleport, fireball at will, the ability to grant wishes....they are gone, but not replaced with unique abilities. Other than 'sliding devil bomb'. They kept the poison (but put it in its tail), they kept the fear aura, but they added a flaming aura (ala balors) rather than a fireball ability. Why? They want to redesign how combat works, so part of that will be redesigning the creatures that players fight. They kept the main ideas of it, a giant flaming devil that strikes fear into enemies and can command lesser devils, but didn't translate the individual abilities directly (I remembering them talking about that a long time ago before 4e was announced). They did kinda change it to include elements of the Balor, but they were pretty much the same thing statistically but one used a sword and the other had regeneration. And they were exactly the same for someone who didn't know about the Great Wheel. I remember that when I first looked though the MM I just kept wondering why they kept doubling up on creatures. Many of them were pointless for someone not playing in the Great Wheel setting. Notice that they did include the wish granting thing, but put it down to the lore. They're changing it so that only things that are combat/encounter related will be in the stat block. Considering that the Wish thing was basically a plot device in the first place, that doesn't change much. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-27-08, 01:48 AM | Nope, looks like Orcus. So much for their supposed fixing of the demon-devil "problem". :rolleyes: I don't think it looks like Orcus. Not fat enough. What it doesn't look, is terrifying and it doesn't impart any sense of dread. The pit friend looks rather silly, it isn't scary, and it looks a bit constipated, and I love Arnie Swekel's art. It looks like a gargoyle more than anything. I don't really care for the new direction they've taken with the pit fiend. They've gotten rid of much of what is 'iconic' to the pit fiend, which is further compounded and exacerbated by the removal of law and chaos from the equation. Pit fiends and balors were (I have to use the past tense) alignment exemplars; pit fiends were ideals of LE and tyranny and balors were ideals of CE and unrepentant destruction. Now, they're just like any other monster. The question by association is, why use a pit friend in your campaign? I'm also not that flash with the idea to use levels or present levels for monsters rather than HD. What separated PCs and NPCs from monsters is levels versus HD. While monsters could have levels, their defining feature was HD, ie outsiders would have the atk of a fighter and all good saves. Now, there isn't much difference. As a consequence, since there isn't much difference, they could be removing many subtypes and types. With talk about how the new game seems more and more like a miniatures campaign. I guess they're hearkening back to their original roots. D&D began life as a miniatures game, Cavaliers and Roundheads. The acronym, TSR, stands for Tactical Studies Rules. I think they're trying to consolidate the two (since D&D and miniatures games are as different as apples to oranges) and thus appeal to the broader public instead of appealing to single niche markets. |
| runestar01-27-08, 03:34 AM | Notice that they did include the wish granting thing, but put it down to the lore. They're changing it so that only things that are combat/encounter related will be in the stat block. Considering that the Wish thing was basically a plot device in the first place, that doesn't change much. What...? Was I the only one who actually had the pit fiend use wish in combat?:confused: |
| yrogerg01-27-08, 07:43 AM | No, this is wrong. 21+ level is still epic in 4e and 3e, so simply because we've expanded the core game to include epic (possibly early epic if you believe that expanded epic is coming), doesn't mean that all CRs should increase by 133%. It's *labelled* Epic, but that doesn't actually tell us much about what the level of challenges are at that level, especially since 3e's Epic extended more or less indefinitely up. However, I'm expecting that the game is being built for people who didn't mess around with Epic play in 3e (which is most people), and who ended the game at or before 20. Obviously, we'll have to see the final product to tell for certain, but it seems somewhat clear to me that what one level "means" is changing somewhat. After all, we already know that what a Feat "means" is changing dramatically, just as characters are getting more of them. <snip> I liked the MMV mostly. The concern here is more that certain iconic abilities of the creature are gone. Teleport, fireball at will, the ability to grant wishes....they are gone, but not replaced with unique abilities. Other than 'sliding devil bomb'. They kept the poison (but put it in its tail), they kept the fear aura, but they added a flaming aura (ala balors) rather than a fireball ability. Why? Note that Teleport isn't gone, per se, it's just been turned into tactical options. The Pit fiend can now teleport as a movement mode which, frankly, seems pretty nifty. And one of their other tactical abilities is to teleport their allies to where they want them. Also fairly cool, and since their flavor is "higher-up in the Infernal hierarchy", it's a pretty good fit, and gives us some idea of the range of the Leader role means for monsters. What it does is eliminates "Teleport away at the end of combat" as a foolproof tactic, meaning that early rounds aren't a game of Magical Rock-Paper-Scissors with Dimensional Anchor and Dispel magic. And again, they wanted to stay far, far away from giving monsters carbon-copies of the PHB spells. Again, take that as you will. Granting wishes isn't disappearing either, apparently, (even though the designers said that they'd cut Wish from the game) but is getting pushed into the realm of rituals, or non-combat magic. Which, again, seems fine to me. I'd actually rather they cut it out entirely, but meh. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-27-08, 08:42 AM | Well we don't entirely know what 'epic' means in 4e. While I don't know if there might be a 'super duper epic' after level 30 (godlike or something) I do think that the levels will not translate directly (level 26th in 3.5 equaling level 26 in 4e). It's *labelled* Epic, but that doesn't actually tell us much about what the level of challenges are at that level, especially since 3e's Epic extended more or less indefinitely up. However, I'm expecting that the game is being built for people who didn't mess around with Epic play in 3e (which is most people), and who ended the game at or before 20. Obviously, we'll have to see the final product to tell for certain, but it seems somewhat clear to me that what one level "means" is changing somewhat. After all, we already know that what a Feat "means" is changing dramatically, just as characters are getting more of them. This isn't true. Since we don't really know a lot about the numbers involved in separating the tiers, we have to continue to operate under the assumption that 21+ equates to epic, unless indicated otherwise. We can infer that pit fiends are epic both from their level and the fact they are now written as dukes of hells and rulers of cities, et cetera. Numerical variables are usually static. Maths is a constant. This means that level 26 is >21+, hence it's epic. You can't say that 26 in 4e is like 17 in 3e because it's simply not true. The numbers remain the same. They want to redesign how combat works, so part of that will be redesigning the creatures that players fight. They kept the main ideas of it, a giant flaming devil that strikes fear into enemies and can command lesser devils, but didn't translate the individual abilities directly (I remembering them talking about that a long time ago before 4e was announced). They did kinda change it to include elements of the Balor, but they were pretty much the same thing statistically but one used a sword and the other had regeneration. And they were exactly the same for someone who didn't know about the Great Wheel. I remember that when I first looked though the MM I just kept wondering why they kept doubling up on creatures. Many of them were pointless for someone not playing in the Great Wheel setting. Notice that they did include the wish granting thing, but put it down to the lore. They're changing it so that only things that are combat/encounter related will be in the stat block. Considering that the Wish thing was basically a plot device in the first place, that doesn't change much. They've gotten rid of the iconic aspects of the pit fiend in the edit. The pit fiend and balor were not pretty much the same thing statistically. Similarities may have been present but that's because they occupied the same power level and CR, nothing more. They were meant to be akin to mirror images of each other, but in a way that was not exactly the same. They were diametric opposites but were not opposite duplicates. This had a lot to do with their alignment and what they represented, and how they were presented. Now, the 4e pit fiend and balor could very well be the same thing statistically and the same thing in flavor since the designers have abolished law and chaos. |
| Alpha_Moose01-27-08, 12:50 PM | What...? Was I the only one who actually had the pit fiend use wish in combat?:confused: Well, it was a once per year thing. It seemed like its point was an out of combat thing. I guess it seemed weird to me that a creature that can do something 1/year 'just happened' to use it when the PCs march into town. This isn't true. Since we don't really know a lot about the numbers involved in separating the tiers, we have to continue to operate under the assumption that 21+ equates to epic, unless indicated otherwise. We can infer that pit fiends are epic both from their level and the fact they are now written as dukes of hells and rulers of cities, et cetera. Numerical variables are usually static. Maths is a constant. This means that level 26 is >21+, hence it's epic. You can't say that 26 in 4e is like 17 in 3e because it's simply not true. The numbers remain the same. 21+ is called Epic, but that doesn't mean that they will be of the same power level as in 3e. In 3e Epic basically separated characters into 2 types, Epic Spellcasters and Non-epic Spellcasters. One could rip the universe in two and the other got a +1 on attack. Considering that they are even trying to balance low epic out it will most likely be different. |
| yrogerg01-27-08, 07:14 PM | We can infer that pit fiends are epic both from their level and the fact they are now written as dukes of hells and rulers of cities, et cetera. Numerical variables are usually static. Maths is a constant. This means that level 26 is >21+, hence it's epic. You can't say that 26 in 4e is like 17 in 3e because it's simply not true. The numbers remain the same. Again, that's only one way to look at things. The other is that, in the continuum of challenges that PCs are expected to face in the average progression from beginning to end, Pit Fiends rank mid-high, and are emphatically not at the tail end of that progression. In terms of the CR "totem pole", or complaining that that "doesn't leave enough room for everything else" or what have you, that's the *actually* relevant aspect. Whether it's a higher number isn't. The alternative would be that levels 20-30 are being populated entirely by new monsters, which frankly, seems pretty unlikely. |
| Kain_Darkwind01-27-08, 08:26 PM | It's *labelled* Epic, but that doesn't actually tell us much about what the level of challenges are at that level, especially since 3e's Epic extended more or less indefinitely up. However, I'm expecting that the game is being built for people who didn't mess around with Epic play in 3e (which is most people), and who ended the game at or before 20. Obviously, we'll have to see the final product to tell for certain, but it seems somewhat clear to me that what one level "means" is changing somewhat. After all, we already know that what a Feat "means" is changing dramatically, just as characters are getting more of them. I agree with this, but I still doubt that a 133% is in order for all monsters. Otherwise, rather than have to populate the higher levels with new creatures, one will have to populate the lower levels with new creatures. Titans, solars, elder dragons and the like have filled the 20-30 CRs before. It isn't like there is a dearth of creatures to work with. Note that Teleport isn't gone, per se, it's just been turned into tactical options. The Pit fiend can now teleport as a movement mode which, frankly, seems pretty nifty. And one of their other tactical abilities is to teleport their allies to where they want them. Also fairly cool, and since their flavor is "higher-up in the Infernal hierarchy", it's a pretty good fit, and gives us some idea of the range of the Leader role means for monsters. What it does is eliminates "Teleport away at the end of combat" as a foolproof tactic, meaning that early rounds aren't a game of Magical Rock-Paper-Scissors with Dimensional Anchor and Dispel magic. I didn't notice that, so thank you for pointing it out. I still feel that an innate ability to teleport makes sense for creatures that live in vast areas like the planes. Even if you don't subscribe to endless planes and just to 'Abyss the size of Jupiter', that's a lot of territory to cover riding on a horse. And again, they wanted to stay far, far away from giving monsters carbon-copies of the PHB spells. Again, take that as you will. I'm not against that as a concept, except where giving them the spell makes sense. Granting wishes isn't disappearing either, apparently, (even though the designers said that they'd cut Wish from the game) but is getting pushed into the realm of rituals, or non-combat magic. Which, again, seems fine to me. I'd actually rather they cut it out entirely, but meh. The diabolical offering a mortal their heart's content is very classic and belongs in DnD. (Also, does this mean the same for genies?) However, I'm bummed to hear that wish was out. With the new magic system extending into epic, I figured that it would be ideal to make that overpowered 9th level spell into something along the lines of 27th level. A whole eating of cake while having it too. |
| Toran_A_Sunder01-27-08, 09:11 PM | Honestly, I don't know how to feel about it. I do know, however, that the more I'm seeing the less I am liking about 4e. I still plan on giving it a chance, but with each review I am becoming more and more skeptical about how much I am going to enjoy this. For all that so many people dislike the alignment system and how the multiverse was littered with equal and exact opposites of eachother, some of us actually liked that. I'll be sad to see it go if what this preview is showing. Just evil? What about lawful evil? What about the Pit Fiend being the exemplar of tyranny in the multiverse? I like that not one bit.... ....and by the way, WTF is this language: Supernal crap anyway? From Dictionary.com: su·per·nal /sʊˈpɜrnl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soo-pur-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. being in or belonging to the heaven of divine beings; heavenly, celestial, or divine. 2. lofty; of more than earthly or human excellence, powers, etc. 3. being on high or in the sky or visible heavens. |
| Xaxor01-27-08, 10:15 PM | Supernal is probably the new Outsider language. No more Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal, and Modron, and whatever else one could find. It's not my cup of tea, though. Not that hard to houserule back of course. Even though, who gives a damn about languages that often? Especially Outsider ones? |
| Toran_A_Sunder01-27-08, 11:01 PM | Supernal is probably the new Outsider language. No more Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal, and Modron, and whatever else one could find. It's not my cup of tea, though. Not that hard to houserule back of course. Even though, who gives a damn about languages that often? Especially Outsider ones? lol. some of us do. especially when some of our games deal heavily with outsiders as pro- and antagonists. :D |
| Kain_Darkwind01-27-08, 11:31 PM | Even though, who gives a damn about languages that often? Especially Outsider ones? Are you sure you are on the right forum? Deities and the Planes....pretty outsider heavy, if not exclusive at times. |
| Taeldrin Laesrash01-28-08, 12:39 AM | Even though, who gives a damn about languages that often? Especially Outsider ones? We do. I imagine some people were very upset that the celestials had one language, while Slaad got dropped completely. Not the best place to say that, you know. |
| Toran_A_Sunder01-28-08, 02:40 AM | We do. I imagine some people were very upset that the celestials had one language, while Slaad got dropped completely. Not the best place to say that, you know. ......They dropped Slaad? ......... Please excuse the following..... "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!" |
| yrogerg01-28-08, 07:43 AM | I agree with this, but I still doubt that a 133% is in order for all monsters. Otherwise, rather than have to populate the higher levels with new creatures, one will have to populate the lower levels with new creatures. Titans, solars, elder dragons and the like have filled the 20-30 CRs before. It isn't like there is a dearth of creatures to work with. You're actually probably right that it's not a straight 133% conversion. IIRC, the devs talked in one podcast about how Planar baddies *are* supposed to be somewhat more powerful than non-planars. Makes sense, I think. But, I think it's still safe to say that the absolute CR range is going to extend a few points above the PCs (as it had in 3.5, even after they dropped support for Epic rules), and so, in the continuum of monsters that the PCs can reasonably be expected to face over the course of the game, Pit Fiends actually *have* dropped a few notches. I think it makes sense that they would do that, too. After all, remember all those "epic" monsters that were printed up after WotC discontinued Epic support and therefore never had CRs over 26? Remember all the complaining about those monsters on these subforums? (How is Atrophos a world-ender? A Great Wyrm could solo him!) I suspect that they are trying to leave room for those guys (including various named Planar exemplars, gods, and other epic threats) at the top. All the same, it's a bit silly to complain about how a CR 26 pit fiend doesn't "leave enough room" for everything else, since it actually leaves more space than 3.5 did, even if a level is a level is a level. I didn't notice that, so thank you for pointing it out. I still feel that an innate ability to teleport makes sense for creatures that live in vast areas like the planes. Even if you don't subscribe to endless planes and just to 'Abyss the size of Jupiter', that's a lot of territory to cover riding on a horse. Sure, it's a trade-off. Then again, not every powerful Outsider has teleport, despite the vastness of the planes. I suspect that most people never noticed the difference, except when it came to running away, though. The diabolical offering a mortal their heart's content is very classic and belongs in DnD. (Also, does this mean the same for genies?) However, I'm bummed to hear that wish was out. With the new magic system extending into epic, I figured that it would be ideal to make that overpowered 9th level spell into something along the lines of 27th level. A whole eating of cake while having it too. Again, Wish is clearly in in some form, as a Ritual. We haven't heard much about Ritual magic, but it's clearly supposed to be spells that are limited to non-combat use. Also, I'm glad someone else reverses that saying. |
| sciborg301-28-08, 08:05 AM | They dropped Slaad? They did not. Slaad swim in the E-Chaos. |
| Taeldrin Laesrash01-28-08, 11:20 AM | They did not. Slaad swim in the E-Chaos. I was referring to the Slaad language. Evidently, people do give a damn about them and the language. |
| Xaxor01-28-08, 10:07 PM | I meant it more in an overarching sense. I fully understand that this board enjoys the minutiae of the planes, but the larger group of players probably does not. I apologize for ruffling any feathers. |
| Taeldrin Laesrash01-28-08, 10:54 PM | I meant it more in an overarching sense. I fully understand that this board enjoys the minutiae of the planes, but the larger group of players probably does not. I apologize for ruffling any feathers. Accepted; however, you may want to choose your words more carefully next time. In seems to me that the 4e designers don't see that some people like the complications of D&D (The planes, in this case), and that you can keep it there for the fans to use and the rest to ignore. Instead, they just aim for one group of gamers and screw the minorities (Their ideal audience may be smaller than they think). |
| Toran_A_Sunder01-28-08, 10:59 PM | I meant it more in an overarching sense. I fully understand that this board enjoys the minutiae of the planes, but the larger group of players probably does not. I apologize for ruffling any feathers. No feathers to ruffle :D Yea some of us enjoy the minutiae of the planes. Some of us, as TL said, enjoy some of the more complicated aspects of D&D. And while I agree that certainly some rules need to be revamped... Well to be frank I'm not as excited about 4e as I once was. There's too much change. At least, too much change in areas that I thought were fine. Oh well. I guess we'll see wha happens. |
| sigma99901-28-08, 11:12 PM | One thing caught my attention more than any other feature of that preview, such as lack of ability scores. The Supernal language. :schemes: |
| Toran_A_Sunder01-28-08, 11:33 PM | One thing caught my attention more than any other feature of that preview, such as lack of ability scores. The Supernal language. :schemes: Yea...caught my eye too. See my post on page 1 about what supernal actually means. |
| sigma99901-31-08, 08:04 PM | Supernal, implying that angels -> devils in a very Miltonian sense. Hopefully without Asmodeaus as 'supreme jerkwad', but rather a Time Share of Evil Devil Lords, maybe even democratic election. Stable evil dictatorships are boring and stifling. And on that note, I am sorely depressed that Ledger won't be playing Lucifer in an up-coming movie. Sorely, as in on the verge of nerd tears. Damn it, Heath... |
| McPoyo02-01-08, 09:18 AM | Hmm...Time shares and Democratic Elections...yeah, that sounds like two things that originated in the Hells. |
| Eldritch_Lord02-01-08, 09:57 AM | Has anyone considered that "Language: Supernatural" might not mean there's a specific language replacing the planar languages, but rather that it's a 4e version of the old "devils can communicate telepathically with any creatures that have a language"? When I first saw "Supernatural" there I thought "Okay, now it has always-on tongues instead" not "Well, there goes Infernal...." |
| sciborg302-01-08, 10:25 AM | Hmm...Time shares and Democratic Elections...yeah, that sounds like two things that originated in the Hells. :rofl: |