Planar Economy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Planar Economy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sciborg3
04-16-08, 05:10 PM I was thinking about Estavan, and I suppose that he trades in soul gems, various wines made from plants in Carceri, etc? But one has to wonder about the planes being a post-scarcity society, or at least post-scarcity when thinking of material products.

What other, exotic goods might be found valuable? If the planes have places filled with infinite fields of gold (though there are beings that usually guard these in some fashion) can there come a point where things like recorded life experiences become currency - is the nuances of individual life a viable form of money?

And does such a society, where goods traverse universes, end up with currencies such as soul gems and the like because the Soul is conceivably valuable in a way that material goods are not?

And then, why are there poor people in Sigil?
Rania
04-16-08, 05:44 PM I was thinking about Estavan, and I suppose that he trades in soul gems, various wines made from plants in Carceri, etc? But one has to wonder about the planes being a post-scarcity society, or at least post-scarcity when thinking of material products.

What other, exotic goods might be found valuable? If the planes have places filled with infinite fields of gold (though there are beings that usually guard these in some fashion) can there come a point where things like recorded life experiences become currency - is the nuances of individual life a viable form of money?

And does such a society, where goods traverse universes, end up with currencies such as soul gems and the like because the Soul is conceivably valuable in a way that material goods are not?

And then, why are there poor people in Sigil?As for your last point, even if people could make money by selling memories (without losing them), not everybody would want to. Maybe it feels too much like prostitution to them, maybe they don't want anyone else knowing what they've been through.

Value... I see a kind of barter system being the norm for inter-planar commerce. Possibly material goods (weapons, clothes, food, etc), possibly services or entertainment (selling your soul for a year to a devil would be an example of the former, while singing for a lillend would be the latter); I can understand them all.
HidaAkira
04-17-08, 07:00 AM My guess on the matter of selling sensory stones is that they aren't profitable enough to matter. I have no idea how expensive or difficult they are to make, but it can't be too hard.

The largest and most inclusive collection of sensory stones is in the possession of the Sensates - and they include lots of rare, perhaps unique emotions and experiences. They are always interested in new things, and will pay for them, but considering how much they have, you will have to be pretty damn unique to be of interest.
I don't see why the Sensates wouldn't have lesser collections spread throughout the planes where they have bases.

The major problem I see with an economy based on the memories of others is this: not all beings are interested in the same things, the same emotions and experiences. If all you are interested in is world/planar domination, the feeling of some random dude being in love is not exactly going to be high on your wish list.
ripvanwormer
04-17-08, 05:21 PM And then, why are there poor people in Sigil?

Everything in Sigil is imported, and it can sometimes be very difficult to get thing in and out. Most portals are one-way or temporary or heavily taxed, so there could be frequent "lean" seasons where very little essential goods get in. During those times, the prices for goods such as souls might plummet, while the price of things like wheat and canned goods might skyrocket.

Of course, there are many creatures in Sigil that feed on souls, so there will always be a demand for those. Generally, due to the legal, magical, and ethical difficulties in stealing souls and their value in rituals and Blood War recruitment, the price will remain high, making soul gems a convenient "high density" good, easy to transport across difficult planar paths like Pazunia, the Infinite Staircase, flying ships that have to dock at the City of Brass, wartorn regions of Toril, and other hazards that are inevitable for merchants in a multiverse where portals work according to the principles of "what makes the best adventure?" and not "what makes the most efficient trading route?"

While for those who can planeshift at will, the planes may indeed be a "post-scarcity society," for the great masses of the poor in Sigil it is anything but.

I think plotting out different trading routes, ambling circuitously from portal to portal across the Outlands, the Elemental Planes, and stranger places as they open and close according to various schedules, would be a useful project.
itreeby
05-03-08, 09:58 AM i think i remember gold being valuable simple because it was valuable er-

because you have to work hard to earn the gold the gold has value that does not come from any physical part of the coin.

The gold coin has value the same way paper money does in the real word, even though its just paper; the gold represents sacrifice.

in that way anything can have value.
celestialkin
05-03-08, 10:38 AM i think i remember gold being valuable simple because it was valuable er-

because you have to work hard to earn the gold the gold has value that does not come from any physical part of the coin.

The gold coin has value the same way paper money does in the real word, even though its just paper; the gold represents sacrifice.

in that way anything can have value.

True. I saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel about money. One professor had a huge collection of "Money". Not just bills or coins, but mostly things people have traded over the ages as "Money".

Did you know that three Elephant tales (as long as you took it with the elephant still alive) could buy you a wife in parts of Africa?

Did you know that Roman soldiers were once payed in salt bars? Hence the term salary.

Weapons were an item the guy had tons of.

He had a number of other items, like a silkish box, which each would have gotten him another wife in days past.

Anyway, I have a PC interested in making a flying ship (or maybe even fortress), and he will try getting the Planeshift property from th Stronghold Builder's Guidebook put onto it. Do you guys think there is a profit to be made like this? If so, how would he go about it?

Maybe trading with a plane/race like in Star Trek Deep Space 9 where one race had so much gold they treated it like tin, and tin was so rare they treated it like gold?
ripvanwormer
05-04-08, 01:47 PM The gold coin has value the same way paper money does in the real word, even though its just paper; the gold represents sacrifice.

in that way anything can have value.

That gives me an interesting thought. In the Outer Planes, where belief is power and symbols have weight and mass and, often, fangs and claws, the idea of wealth might make you wealthy in a very literal way. Simple proximity to gold might make your clothes more luxurious, your belly fuller, and your attitude more confident. Someone simply standing next to someone with gold on their person might gain a charisma bonus due to the ambient power and prestige in the air. It doesn't even matter if gold is scarce or accepted as a local currency, only that it symbolizes wealth and in the Outer Planes, what something symbolizes is what it is. Traditional economics and even biology might be thrown out the window: someone might survive for years without eating as long as they're near a pile of gold that implies they're eating well. Of course, other symbols would activate as well, and such a person might take on a more draconic appearance like Fafnir, or grow donkey's ears like Midas. Everything has its price, particularly money.
vegetalss4
05-04-08, 03:09 PM Maybe trading with a plane/race like in Star Trek Deep Space 9 where one race had so much gold they treated it like tin, and tin was so rare they treated it like gold?

the best way to do something like this would be to import steel to the dragonlance setting. if you can even get there that is.
sciborg3
05-06-08, 02:17 AM Everything has its price, particularly money.

:)

I like to think the idea of ideas/imagination is Soma, what Calasso refers to as "the only quantity that is quality".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sciborg3 04-16-08, 05:10 PM	I was thinking about Estavan, and I suppose that he trades in soul gems, various wines made from plants in Carceri, etc? But one has to wonder about the planes being a post-scarcity society, or at least post-scarcity when thinking of material products. What other, exotic goods might be found valuable? If the planes have places filled with infinite fields of gold (though there are beings that usually guard these in some fashion) can there come a point where things like recorded life experiences become currency - is the nuances of individual life a viable form of money? And does such a society, where goods traverse universes, end up with currencies such as soul gems and the like because the Soul is conceivably valuable in a way that material goods are not? And then, why are there poor people in Sigil?
Rania 04-16-08, 05:44 PM	I was thinking about Estavan, and I suppose that he trades in soul gems, various wines made from plants in Carceri, etc? But one has to wonder about the planes being a post-scarcity society, or at least post-scarcity when thinking of material products. What other, exotic goods might be found valuable? If the planes have places filled with infinite fields of gold (though there are beings that usually guard these in some fashion) can there come a point where things like recorded life experiences become currency - is the nuances of individual life a viable form of money? And does such a society, where goods traverse universes, end up with currencies such as soul gems and the like because the Soul is conceivably valuable in a way that material goods are not? And then, why are there poor people in Sigil?As for your last point, even if people could make money by selling memories (without losing them), not everybody would want to. Maybe it feels too much like prostitution to them, maybe they don't want anyone else knowing what they've been through. Value... I see a kind of barter system being the norm for inter-planar commerce. Possibly material goods (weapons, clothes, food, etc), possibly services or entertainment (selling your soul for a year to a devil would be an example of the former, while singing for a lillend would be the latter); I can understand them all.
HidaAkira 04-17-08, 07:00 AM	My guess on the matter of selling sensory stones is that they aren't profitable enough to matter. I have no idea how expensive or difficult they are to make, but it can't be too hard. The largest and most inclusive collection of sensory stones is in the possession of the Sensates - and they include lots of rare, perhaps unique emotions and experiences. They are always interested in new things, and will pay for them, but considering how much they have, you will have to be pretty damn unique to be of interest. I don't see why the Sensates wouldn't have lesser collections spread throughout the planes where they have bases. The major problem I see with an economy based on the memories of others is this: not all beings are interested in the same things, the same emotions and experiences. If all you are interested in is world/planar domination, the feeling of some random dude being in love is not exactly going to be high on your wish list.
ripvanwormer 04-17-08, 05:21 PM	And then, why are there poor people in Sigil? Everything in Sigil is imported, and it can sometimes be very difficult to get thing in and out. Most portals are one-way or temporary or heavily taxed, so there could be frequent "lean" seasons where very little essential goods get in. During those times, the prices for goods such as souls might plummet, while the price of things like wheat and canned goods might skyrocket. Of course, there are many creatures in Sigil that feed on souls, so there will always be a demand for those. Generally, due to the legal, magical, and ethical difficulties in stealing souls and their value in rituals and Blood War recruitment, the price will remain high, making soul gems a convenient "high density" good, easy to transport across difficult planar paths like Pazunia, the Infinite Staircase, flying ships that have to dock at the City of Brass, wartorn regions of Toril, and other hazards that are inevitable for merchants in a multiverse where portals work according to the principles of "what makes the best adventure?" and not "what makes the most efficient trading route?" While for those who can planeshift at will, the planes may indeed be a "post-scarcity society," for the great masses of the poor in Sigil it is anything but. I think plotting out different trading routes, ambling circuitously from portal to portal across the Outlands, the Elemental Planes, and stranger places as they open and close according to various schedules, would be a useful project.
itreeby 05-03-08, 09:58 AM	i think i remember gold being valuable simple because it was valuable er- because you have to work hard to earn the gold the gold has value that does not come from any physical part of the coin. The gold coin has value the same way paper money does in the real word, even though its just paper; the gold represents sacrifice. in that way anything can have value.
celestialkin 05-03-08, 10:38 AM	i think i remember gold being valuable simple because it was valuable er- because you have to work hard to earn the gold the gold has value that does not come from any physical part of the coin. The gold coin has value the same way paper money does in the real word, even though its just paper; the gold represents sacrifice. in that way anything can have value. True. I saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel about money. One professor had a huge collection of "Money". Not just bills or coins, but mostly things people have traded over the ages as "Money". Did you know that three Elephant tales (as long as you took it with the elephant still alive) could buy you a wife in parts of Africa? Did you know that Roman soldiers were once payed in salt bars? Hence the term salary. Weapons were an item the guy had tons of. He had a number of other items, like a silkish box, which each would have gotten him another wife in days past. Anyway, I have a PC interested in making a flying ship (or maybe even fortress), and he will try getting the Planeshift property from th Stronghold Builder's Guidebook put onto it. Do you guys think there is a profit to be made like this? If so, how would he go about it? Maybe trading with a plane/race like in Star Trek Deep Space 9 where one race had so much gold they treated it like tin, and tin was so rare they treated it like gold?
ripvanwormer 05-04-08, 01:47 PM	The gold coin has value the same way paper money does in the real word, even though its just paper; the gold represents sacrifice. in that way anything can have value. That gives me an interesting thought. In the Outer Planes, where belief is power and symbols have weight and mass and, often, fangs and claws, the idea of wealth might make you wealthy in a very literal way. Simple proximity to gold might make your clothes more luxurious, your belly fuller, and your attitude more confident. Someone simply standing next to someone with gold on their person might gain a charisma bonus due to the ambient power and prestige in the air. It doesn't even matter if gold is scarce or accepted as a local currency, only that it symbolizes wealth and in the Outer Planes, what something symbolizes is what it is. Traditional economics and even biology might be thrown out the window: someone might survive for years without eating as long as they're near a pile of gold that implies they're eating well. Of course, other symbols would activate as well, and such a person might take on a more draconic appearance like Fafnir, or grow donkey's ears like Midas. Everything has its price, particularly money.
vegetalss4 05-04-08, 03:09 PM	Maybe trading with a plane/race like in Star Trek Deep Space 9 where one race had so much gold they treated it like tin, and tin was so rare they treated it like gold? the best way to do something like this would be to import steel to the dragonlance setting. if you can even get there that is.
sciborg3 05-06-08, 02:17 AM	Everything has its price, particularly money. :) I like to think the idea of ideas/imagination is Soma, what Calasso refers to as "the only quantity that is quality".