Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TacoClone 08-27-07, 10:45 PM	Alright, so, I've been in the process of making my own campaign world for about a year now. I tried, at first, to create my own planes, but it seems I need to think harder about what all I need in the planes. Personally, I have no desire to actually visit the planes, and only want to make places where my different gods and creatures can come from. I don't really want to use the planes that the DMG describes, nor do I have any desire to have the number of planes that it does. So, firstly, is there any interesting cosmology of planes that you guys have create, used, seen, or thought about? Secondly, for the Astral plane, would it be possible to take the shadow and ethereal planes down and make them into 'spirits' that travel the Astral plane? I know that there's somethings that restrict the use of one of the planes but traveling through another allows you to get out of whatever the thing is (in reference to spells and the like), so would making them spirits be practical?
locustechpriest 08-27-07, 11:00 PM	What you need, like you said, is a variety of places for your outsiders/elementals/deities to hail from. Bare bones, get a NG, NE, CN, and LN plane for the outers. Get an Air, Water, Earth, and Fire plane for the inners. Astral to glue it together, and an ethereal to border on the outers and material, if that suits you (it would be troublesome to lack the ethereal, that much is certain). If you really like the whole "wheel" concept, you might keep the outlands and sigil, for effect, but it probably isn't necessary, at all. That would give you eleven planes: 4 outer, 4 inner, 2 transitive, 1 material.
TacoClone 08-27-07, 11:03 PM	Would that mean that the shadow plane is indeed less important to have than the ethereal?
locustechpriest 08-27-07, 11:39 PM	That is my holy opinion, yes. :D
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-28-07, 01:47 AM	The setup of the transitive plane can be interpreted in a wide variety of way. Though their natures vary, if you don't have planar exploration planned, you can just make a fill-in-the-gap dimension of aether or something like that.
sicsemperjohn 08-28-07, 07:25 PM	Bare bones, you really can have as many dang planes as you want. You could scrap all of your pure elemental planes, and have all elemental sources draw from a kind of primordial-soup-ethereal plane. Or you could toss out the ethereal and just have direct interface between elemental and material planes. I once made a big contiguous Outer Plane for a campaign, that never actually showed up. Each type of alignment was characterized by a type of environment: "Good" was grassy plains and steppes, "Evil" was dense cityscape. "Chaos" was thick, jungle-like woods, "Law" was tall, clean, pristine mountains. "Chaotic evil," forest and cityscape, became ruins. "Chaotic good," forest and plains, became sparse forest with clearings and sun shining through the boughs. "Lawful good," plains and mountains, was simply valleys. "Lawful evil," mountains and cities, became immense creepy castles. True neutral, right in the middle, was ocean. Still want to actually put that into a campaign sometime...
Witch 08-28-07, 08:01 PM	Possibilities: - Remove the Inner Planes altogether. State that the Prime Material is where these areas join one another, and that there are particular areas where particular energies are more powerful. Elementals hail from such places. Djinnies descend from mortals infused by the energies of such places. - Change the Outer Planes into a single "Spiritual Plane", which holds all such creatures and is divided into several realms, including divine realms but also realms ruled by other spiritual creatures such as fiends and celestials. These beings consistently try to gain more territory as a metaphor for the spread of their alignment on the mortal races. - Keep the transitive planes (Astral, Shadow, Ethereal). Particularly Astral & Ethereal. Changing them involves messing with a lot of game mechanics. It may be easier to leave them as they are.
locustechpriest 08-28-07, 08:20 PM	You could scrap all of your pure elemental planes, and have all elemental sources draw from a kind of primordial-soup-ethereal plane. Or you could make Limbo into the "combined elemental plane". I would keep the elements out of the ether, personally, as AEther, being the fifth "quintesential" element, should not be muddied by the broiling mix of the lesser elements. I like the idea that both John and Witch presented of "basic lands", but prefer the alignment concept. I will be so bold as to throw in a M:tG linkup, Plains (NG), Forrest (TN), Island (LN), Mountain (CN), Swamp (NE). You might, as Witch suggested, make only one "spiritual" outer plane (kinda' like the outlands) with all of these "alignment zones", then one "elemental" inner plane, a veritable Limbo. I maintain my suggestion that you should keep both Astral and Ethereal, but drop Shadow. I cannot think of many core mechanics that will suffer from the loss of the Shadow plane (shadow conjuration and evocation spells come to mind), although you will have to relocate some nifty creatures (shadow mastiff and the nightshades come to mind). Correct me if I am wrong. Astral, of course is needed for all variety of teleporting, and most planar travel. Ethereal is the home of incorporeal creatures and used for nifty spells like blink. I would definitely not cut them out. So, 1 material, 2 transitive, 1 inner and 1 outter... that is a reduction to only 5 planes of existence! Astounding. Thanks guys, even though I am not the OP, I find your input amazingly hepful as I contemplate what kind of campaign setting I would like to run. :)
TacoClone 08-28-07, 11:28 PM	I like the idea, except I'm not sure how to set that up. I only say this because I just find it kind of weird to have only two actual planes to go visit that are of substance, and I just think it would be odd to put one in front of the other (making a line starting at material, going to elemental, ending at 'spiritual'). This, however, is probably due to the wheel-type set up that the DMG has instilled in my brain. Do you guys have any other 'planar models' besides the wheel one? I know I might sound dumb asking that, but I just can't think of anything... Also, and I apologize now for being lazy and not looking it up myself, but how does the Astral plane work? I understand that both shadow and ethereal surround the material and allow summoning and teleporting and what-not from them, but they're not really places for you to go to. The astral plane, however, is actually travel-able, right? What type of places are there in it? Isn't the bastion of unborn souls or whatever it's called in there? Again, I'm sorry if these questions seem stupid, I've just never delved into the world of planes before. And thank you for all the information and help you've already given me.
MnemonicSV 08-29-07, 03:55 AM	This, however, is probably due to the wheel-type set up that the DMG has instilled in my brain. Do you guys have any other 'planar models' besides the wheel one? I know I might sound dumb asking that, but I just can't think of anything... Planar models are easier to invent than you think. Just come up with a simple concept (preferably a pre-existing game element), then expand, expand, expand. It's easy to fall into the mindset that alignment (the contrasts of ethics and morality, yada yada...) is the most effective planar model for outer planes, only because it is the one presented with the core rules. Just think outside the box. For example, why base the outer planes on various alignments, when you could base them on various environment types? One plane could be just a huge forest, another in that cosmology might be an endless desert, still another may be a limitless sea, and then plains, and hills, maybe tundra, etc... EDIT: Want to add layers to the environment option (above)? Change the climates! Each environment plane could have three layers each... a layer for warm climates, a layer for temperate climates, and a layer for cold climates. If you want to go that deep into it... Another example might be to base the outer planes on racial types. Abberations in one plane, lycanthropes in another, animals in another, undead in another, etc... Perhaps even base abilities could inspire an outer plane cosmology: Strong creatures go to a Strength-based plane in the afterlife, wise creatures go to a Wisdom-based plane, and so on... The only trick is where to throw existing outsiders. Most outsiders are based on alignment achetypes that may or may not remain valid in such esoteric cosmologies. You may have to create your own outsiders to best represent such bizarre concepts. Just my :twocents:
locustechpriest 08-29-07, 01:14 PM	For example, why base the outer planes on various alignments, when you could base them on various environment types? I am surrounded by conceptual geniuses. That would make for an exciting afterlife, to be sure. Acheron and Ysgard are the eternal battle planes of the generic cosmology, IIRC, but the mixed alignments/conflicting godly domains could make this a more general occurance. Choosing a religion becomes picking sides, proselytizing becomes recruiting, the wars rage in the heavens!! Okay, but he's absolutely right. If you want your planes to look like a line, go for it. If circles suit you better, split them up some more. If you are enraptured by the geometries of the triangle (guilty), eliminate the element of fire, call it an energy, fenaggle your way accross all of the intervening rules/mechanics/people-who-know-you-are-insane, and make it happen! [off-topic]@ MnemonicSV: If SV stands for "sliver", then I want you to know that I love you. When I owned that card, it was among my favorites. @ everyone: Yes, I am aware of my insanity. No, I do not plan on doing anything about it.[/off-topic] how does the Astral plane work? Both shadow and ehtereal planes are coterminous, meaning, they overlap with the material (and alternate material) plane(s). This means you can see the material plane from the other side, and travel between them is that much easier. It's kind of like they are just layers of the material plane, but not quite. (They could border on the outer planes too, I just don't remember, but they definately do not go to the inners.) The astral is not coterminous, it just borders all planes (mostly). You can't see into other planes from the astral, and it connects several planes, not just the materials. This is the predominant way to do inter-planar travel.
TacoClone 08-29-07, 02:19 PM	Alright, thanks. I still kinda of like the idea of at least making the shadow plane not actually a plane. I think I'll have the ethereal surround the material (like usual), but the shadow will be an interplanar ooze-like thing that wraps around and invades things and the spells just call the shadows to allow you to use/transport through them. Now, I had been playing around with the idea about giving elements alignments (not always, but generally for the plane they originate from). Water would be NG, earth would be LN, air would be CN, and fire would be NE. I don't think I'll stick with that idea, but I felt like putting it down. I think I'll combine the elemental and 'spiritual' planes and just make a lot of levels, and I'll through in some 'tree-of-life' like thing that will be like the source of magic and elementals and a bunch of stuff. Hm...maybe that should be in place of the bastion of unborn souls...interesting... Speaking of souls, what do you guys do with your dead souls? I mean, in your campaigns, where do souls go when they die and what do they do in their 'afterlife'? (I ask because I'm not sure if I want them to go to the area of their god or alignment, but instead I might have one general area for souls)
TurnCloak_Kobold 08-29-07, 02:57 PM	Would that mean that the shadow plane is indeed less important to have than the ethereal? if you think about it, the shadow plane is just that, a plane that shadows another. litterally it says so in the tome of magic if i recall correctly. it is an almost exact replica of the material plane, complete with denizens and monsters. having it isent nessesary if you never plan to go there, but i have a personal liking to it, its always brought out great adventures when the party becomes to strong and i need to desighn a counter charector bent on replacing his material plane self for no other reason to feel free to feel actual sun on his face. great for screwing with paladins that have sworn only to kill the evil and unjust. with his almost exact somewhat nuetral clone, theres no evil, he just wants what the other has.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-29-07, 04:46 PM	Speaking of souls, what do you guys do with your dead souls? I mean, in your campaigns, where do souls go when they die and what do they do in their 'afterlife'? Note: by souls I'm referring to petitioners (and not the outsiders of a plane that might directly or indirectly be generated from those petitioners). If a petitioner is killed on their native plane, their essence merges with it (though not in the seamless, natural, transfigurative way that all petitioners of a plane seek). Their soulstuff is literally recycled into the very landscape, or potentially the outsiders that might spring forth from that plane (if the plane has natives that spring from it spontaneously). If killed outside of their native plane, a petitioner's essence is (with slim exception) obliterated and lost, denying them any chance of becoming one with their plane or patron god. For this reason most petitioners are incredibly loathe to leave their native plane. Actual outsiders may be destroyed, or might eventually reform depending on their power and where killed. It varies by type really.
TacoClone 08-29-07, 04:57 PM	I actually meant more like people from the material plane. Like your standard group of PCs and the NPCs that make up the town they're in...
locustechpriest 08-30-07, 09:26 PM	I mean, in your campaigns, where do souls go when they die and what do they do in their 'afterlife'? In the Forgotten Realms, dead souls go directly to the Fugue, a plane of the dead, to be claimed by their dieties. On the Fugue, they may be approached by devils to be offered the chance to join their ranks. They usually become Lemure, if they accept, but may be offered a greater "starting rank", depending on circumstance. Occasional raids are launched by demons, who apparently prefer to steal souls from the Fugue rather than recruit (chaos aligned indeed), these raids are resisted by petitioners and servants of the death god (shinigami :P ) Kelemvor. Those souls who were faithless, or served a false faith, face an eternity in the Fugue, as they will never be claimed by a deity (not even Kelemvor), unless recruited, stolen, or resurrected. Luckily, I read up on this quite recently! :) Actual outsiders may be destroyed, or might eventually reform depending on their power and where killed. It varies by type really. I was under the impression that they were simply banished (and kept that way, at the whim of the slayer) if on a foreign plane. I am an avid reader of R.A. Salvatore, although not fanatical (no women dwarves with beards, or trolls growing clones for me). I am curious, does this take place in non-FR settings, or even in the actual rules for FR?
Shemeska the Marauder 08-30-07, 09:39 PM	I was under the impression that they were simply banished (and kept that way, at the whim of the slayer) if on a foreign plane. I am an avid reader of R.A. Salvatore, although not fanatical (no women dwarves with beards, or trolls growing clones for me). I am curious, does this take place in non-FR settings, or even in the actual rules for FR? IIRC Salvatore used some old 1e material regarding banishment, while 2e had more complex details on the process, and initially 3e removed such things entirely, just having outsiders dead regardless of where they might be killed (though FC:I and FC:II formally reintroduced this and codified it quite a bit).
locustechpriest 08-30-07, 10:03 PM	I like being able to make demon skeletons, so I would probably err on the side of core materials. It's more fun for a a gated outsider's corpse to stay around for "recycling". :D Well, how are we doing Taco?
TacoClone 08-30-07, 11:30 PM	I'm actually pressed for time on this one because I'm going to check out a college for all of tomorrow and I have a D&D session on Saturday that I've yet to write up anything for...so I haven't put in stone or thought about the planes since my last post. I'm still trying to decide what I want to do with the souls (petitioners) in my campaign world. I kind of have an urge to just make an 'underworld' level to the the 'spiritual' plane (which remains unnamed) where they simply live. The problem I have is, if a soul goes to another plane and becomes part of that plane (such as a deceased person going to the plane of their god), what happens if that plane is attack (by PCs or demons/devils/etc) and they are killed again? As stated, a being from a plane is destroyed, does that mean the soul is destroyed? I don't like that thought.
locustechpriest 08-31-07, 02:56 AM	I have a D&D session on Saturday that I've yet to write up anything for... So much like me... As for the destruction of souls: It isn't so much destroyed as it is converted. I find these things easier to cope with when thinking of souls as packets of energy, rather than people. When a petitioner is slain, it joins the incredible well of energy that is it's native outer plane. From here, its energy may (in part) be reborn as another creature. If you like to think of souls as immortal and indestructable, then you could just have them become dormant for a few centuries and then be reborn, maybe even reincarnated, if that suits you. In essence, cannon says they are effectively destroyed, but if you don't like that, then modify it to suit you.
TacoClone 08-31-07, 03:27 AM	Hm, a mixture of the two seems a good idea for me. They become part of the plane, but will be reincarnated (eventually). Could lead to some interesting things. But it does make you wonder...what's the point in there being an afterlife if you're just going to die? :allalone: Anywho, I'm not going to break the planes down into inner and outer, but instead make them build on each other (sort of like layers/levels, but bigger) and I think they'll all take up relatively the same space (like, they're physically in the same area as each other). Hm...how exactly do levels/layers work? Giant doors, a long set of stairs? If it's undefined, I think I'll use gates (like portals) and connect a few to a main one, which will be like a giant battle field-type thing (the gods in my campaign world are at war with each other). In that large area will be various places where elemental things are and energy things are, as well as 'basins' of such energies in areas where the gods stay and the like.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-31-07, 06:11 AM	But it does make you wonder...what's the point in there being an afterlife if you're just going to die? :allalone: Not so much dying, but becoming one with the principle you most strongly identified with, becoming a facet of something infinitely greater than a single mortal life. Hm...how exactly do levels/layers work? Giant doors, a long set of stairs? It varies by plane. In Gehenna for instance, portals take the form of bottomless chasms sunk into the furnaces/layers. Of course, some of them aren't actually portals, and are literally bottomless pits (and the 'loths usually point the ignorant towards them just because they can). In Baator, the portals are strictly defined and usually under guard (Tiamat's deific domain physically contains the main gate from Avernus to Dis for instance, and her obligations to the baatezu include her acting as watchdog, for lack of a better term, to that gate). In Mount Celestia, each layer is a literal mountain, and upon reach the very summit of a layer, you arrive at the base of the next "highest" mountain. Typical spacial rules don't necessarily apply to the relationship between layers of the same plane (the diagrams in the MotP are conceptual only).