Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ebonyte 04-05-07, 01:39 PM	Okay, these have been thorns in my mind for a while, now. The Positive and Negative energy planes are antithetical, right? As mortals reckon it, Positive energy is th stuff of life and creation, since, harnessed properly, it can be used to heal. Negative energy, in contrast, is seen as the power of death and entropy, as it's powers are usually related to the death and destruction of Materiel plane matter. The nature of Positive energy seems to be to replicate and reproduce. Negative energy seems to need to feed. Hence, humans are creatures of basic Positive energy, while undead are basic Negative. Now, Positive energy and Negative energy annihilate each other when they come into contact, right? So if an undead uses energy drain on a living being, say a vampire vs. an elf, the elf gains a negative level because of the Negative energy coursing through them, draining their very soulstuff. Correct? So how come there isn't an equivalent Positive energy drain on undead against certain foes, like solars and the like? Also, when that same vampire drains a level from the elf, he gains some hit points, presumably because he is absorbing their soul energy. There are a few feats to supplement this, letting the vampire gain spells and bonuses. All this from ingesting the Positive energy in the elf. But the vampire's soul (if he has one. I'd like to think he does, just made of different stuff) is composed of Negative energy. The vampire should be hurting from this, right? Same for a wight, and so on. So, here's a theory for that: undead and living are not purely made up of either energy source. After all, when a mortal goes to the Negative, they'll get drained and perhaps become a wight. When they go to the Positive plane, they explode from too much Positive energy.) Sounds like neither is good or evil, in the end.) So when a vampire feeds on a human, he is feeding on the metabolized Positive energy. Living beings are really just a safety filter to properly process the Positive energy of the living to feed the Negative energy soul of the undead. So the Positive energy plane exists to create, the Negative to destroy, and mortals and undead are just creatures existing in the twilight between these two extremes, serving, in their own ways, the causes of the planes. Of course, if either plane were to be "defeated", the universe would be screwed. Too much Positve and we explode or get overcrowded. Too much Negative, we all die. Well, any thoughts? I feel better just having asked.
timidbarbarian 04-05-07, 02:26 PM	Almost a modest mouse reference...
Ebonyte 04-05-07, 02:52 PM	:rofl:
Khael 04-05-07, 03:00 PM	You presume the living are full of positive energy. They aren't, (I think), beyond though use of spells, portals etc. There is after all a difference between drawing on a type of energy and being it. Undead do more than be created by negative energy, everyone of them is a tiny portal to the negative energy plane, a portal that over time grows. Hence when a vampire/wight strike its prey, it loads the target with negative energy, sapping the spirit and over time, in some cases, loading it with such energy they rise as another undead. This is why solars can't give undead negative (or positive? :)) levels - they aren't full of positive energy, though they do draw off it on a minor level (unless turning) A 'rebuke/command undead' ability by which a cleric can channel negative energy to control the undead and I think this is channeling in part draws part of the targeted undead's energy away redirecting it in a particular way. But yes, the postive and negative planes are very much a 'D&D worlds need both or neither' thing, the metaphorical creator and destroyer, neither is good or evil, just natural.
Speech 04-05-07, 04:11 PM	I like to compare this all to math...you like math right?? Undead have "ranks" (relative power levels) of negative energy-hit dice, class levels, whatever. Everything that 'runs on' positive energy has "ranks" (relative power levels) of positive energy-hit dice, class levels whatever. When a negative being (undead) applies it's "charge" to a positive being (not-undead), the positive being gains a negative energy "rank", which is hazardous to something that lives on positive energy. The positive being thus is reduced by the "rank of the negative charge" So, back to math: Elf power level: 5 Vampire's charge: -2 Elf power level: 3 Use whatever fluff to explain it, but applying a negative charge to a positive being results in a weakend positive.
Ebonyte 04-05-07, 04:27 PM	While math is not my forte (I'm a reader, not a calculator), you're speaking language I understand. But wouldn't that concept suggest that the vampire expends itself in draining the elf?
Speech 04-05-07, 04:54 PM	Not in my mind...the way I see it: The negative feed on the positive, somehow they consume the positive energy to empower themselves (extra hit points etc), while the positive tends to banish the negative (as light banishes the darkness). The two energies are dualistic, but because of their basic natures, do not necessarily behave in the same way. For instance, it is the way of undead to consume positive energy, but positive forces tend to smite and rid the prime of negative energy.
Ebonyte 04-05-07, 05:23 PM	That's the rub, though. It's like needed to drink sulfuric acid, but not being immune to it. Let's say I'm playing a vampire. If someone attacks me with positive energy (ala Cure spell) I'll be hurt. But if I drain someone (theoretically of their positive energy) I'm healed. I figure mortals are fundamentally positive energy creatures (not neccessarily creatures made of it, but deep down, powered by it) because positive energy seems to heal instead of hurt them. Same mirror effect with the undead and negative. So humans act as filters, then? I only have a problem when you feed on something that hrms you. I'm distracted right now, so I'm not sure if I'm communicating it adequately. :plotting:
mythSSK 04-05-07, 06:46 PM	I think you're operating on a misconception of what a vampire feeds on. Energy drain and Blood drain are two separate abilities. Blood drain is the vampire feeding, and is the attack that grants it bonus hit points - this is a biological process (vampires are one of the few undead who still have any) and has little to do with positive or negative energy. Energy drain is the negative energy that fuels the vampire eroding away at the positive energy of life - - as Khael said, where living beings are simply granted life through a small amount of innate positive energy, undead have a deep connection to the NEP itself - - it's like the vampire is channeling negative energy directly into its victims.
Ebonyte 04-05-07, 11:18 PM	So the undead are like small portals directly to the Negative Energy plane? I think that's debatable for some cosmologies, but I could see that being feasable.
mythSSK 04-06-07, 12:00 AM	So the undead are like small portals directly to the Negative Energy plane? I think that's debatable for some cosmologies, but I could see that being feasable.Note that while Khael used that wording, i specifically avoided it. Undead have a connection to the NEP.
Geogoose 04-06-07, 01:37 AM	I've always thought most mortal prime material plane types, for example a basic human, was a healthy mixture of the elemental and energy planes. As such, they are normally neutral with respect to the elemental and energy planes. Being neutral means a standard human recieves the expected effects from exposure to the energy types. They take normal fire damage instead of being immune or absorbing it. Likewise they gain HP from positive energy(the expected effect) and loose HP from negative energy(or level drain). Remember, humans will die if they are exposed to the raw positive energy plane unprotected. Hardly what would be expected of them were they aligned to that energy type.
mythSSK 04-06-07, 02:38 AM	Geogoose has the right of it, insofar of my understanding of it.
Naderion 04-06-07, 07:30 AM	When you really try to figure it out, you'll see the system does not work. :D I's logically that an infusion of negative energy cancels a same amount of positive energy in a living creature, but an undead wouldn't gain hp by it but actually lose some. Or it would drain positive energy, but it would be harmfull to itself. "Positive" and "negative" are words that don't work here. You could drain hp of a living creature (positive energy) and gain positive energy, but you couldn't transform it.
Ebonyte 04-06-07, 09:47 AM	That's exactly my point, Naderion. My theory is that mortals act as transformers for the energy into a kind that can be metabolized by the undead. In the case of the vampire, I believe it is still absorbing energy via the blood, but that is a case of personal preference on my part.
Khael 04-06-07, 09:54 AM	When you really try to figure it out, you'll see the system does not work. :D I's logically that an infusion of negative energy cancels a same amount of positive energy in a living creature, but an undead wouldn't gain hp by it but actually lose some. Or it would drain positive energy, but it would be harmfull to itself. "Positive" and "negative" are words that don't work here. You could drain hp of a living creature (positive energy) and gain positive energy, but you couldn't transform it. Hardly, remember the undead (particularly negative level givers) each have a connection (And that is a far better term than my portal one, but I was trying to get across the fact that the undead can never run out of negative energy since it has a permanent joining, though that connection/negative in them can be closed/diffused, destroying the animated form, or stopping the animation depending on method.), to the negative plane, and so when they give a negative level, they infuse the victim with negative energy, but do not in turn lose anything, since what minor postive energy enters them from the strike is nulled by the fact they themselves are an influx of negative energy. But as you say the real question is why do they gain hps... maybe by running their negative energy though the postive energy of a victim it becomes catalysed providing the undead with moments of increased power represented in temporary hps, and deals no damage to the undead, becasue the negative energy is returned to them, and they are a walknig battery of the stuff to begin with. The poor mortal who took the strike though suffers because that surge still made him into little more than a big negative/postive energy circuit. The above is just a quick excuse I came up with off the top of my head, by I think it works. Sorta.
Ebonyte 04-06-07, 06:09 PM	So by tha principle, all undead are, in some for or aother, directly connected to the negative energy plane, while standard mortals are, themselves, islands of their own positive/elemental admixture? That the undead is not, in fact, sucking away soulstuff, but forcing negative energy out of themselves into others? That would seem plausible to me... except the Libris Mortis says Energy Drain is a dietary requirement. That suggests less of a channeling and more of an ingestion. Besides, by that way of thinking, the ability to rebuke the undead and spontaneously cast inflict spells should translate to level drain instead of direct hp damage. AND positive energy channeling like Cure and Turn undead would restore lost levels instead of healing damage.
Khael 04-06-07, 06:45 PM	Well, if you're understood fully what my little guess was trying to get across, I like to think you'll find by my theory the dietary thing is covered: By putting the huge amounts of negative energy though a postive energy source (In this case the neutral-ish but still with positive mortal) the negative energy is catalysed, into something, for what of a better term, more energising than normal negative energy, since the negative energy goes out the undead, though the living mortal, and back into the undead, inflicting a load of hurt on the living, but 'feeding' the undead. By this also cure/inflict don't cure/inflict negative levels because they aren't the immense amounts of energy in a undead. In other words I theorise an inflict spell to a wight, is a RL store-brought battery to a building running generator. In the same way, cure spells are only a very minor usage of postive energy, hence they don't remove negative levels.
tridiak 04-08-07, 03:57 AM	Here's something : diseases, bacteria & virii are "living". They are supported by positive energy. That would make Remove Diseasse a negative energy spell.
Evil DM Mk3 04-08-07, 05:01 AM	The way i deal with this one is much as has been stated as above, however there is one differance, rather than being catalysed, I have it that the negative energy IS destroyed, and new energy floods to teh undead to replace it. The hp come from the raw energy (neither positive or negative) that comes from this. Cure spells and the like however cause this annialation to occur in their bodies and the resultant energy is, in this instance, too close to be safely harnessed, it is the differance bewetten pluging a comupter into a plug socket and ramming a live wire into the motherboard. Conveiently this also works to expalin why negative energy harms normal creatures by an identical mechanic. And WotC should do a "bestows negative levels upon undead" creatre of spell. Would rock.
Ebonyte 04-09-07, 11:28 AM	Actually, in the book serries "The Coldfire Trilogy" (awesome books by CS Friedman), one character uses Coldfire, which is a type of "magic" which cannot heal in the traditional sense, to race through a sick man's veins and wounds, killing infection and reducing his fever to save his life. I've actually used this method playing a Necromancer to kill the bad parts and spare the good. After all, a real doctor has to do some cutting to do surgery, right? And Evil DM mk 3? That's pretty solid. I like it. Personally, I prefer a little more similarity to the living in terms of independence from their plane of sustenance when it comes to my games. as a human is a small island of positive energy, of a sort, so is an undead a small island of negative. And for one reason more than any other: according to the rules on extraplanar creatures, a celestial, demon, devil, etc, is a creature with a link to another plane. Severing that link sends them back to that plane. So why aren't undead considered extraplanar then? Or why wouldn't extraplanar spells affect them. After all, they are, according to this, physical agents of the hunger of the Negative Energy Plane. For that matter, how does that explain a succubus's energy draining kiss? It's them stealing the soul of someone with a kiss, right? It's not going to the negative energy plane, the demon isn't undead or connected to that plane, it's connected to the Abyss. And, as I understand it, it's keeping that soul for itself, eating it.
Negeta 04-09-07, 11:55 AM	Okay, maybe this is just me being ignorant, but is it mentioned anywhere that a negative level is caused from Negative energy? After looking through some descriptions in the MM and DMG about energy drain, I didn't see any mention of it being related specifically to negative energy. Sure, it's called a negative level, but that could be because it negates levels. When you get enough experience, you could describe gaining a level as gaining a positive level. So if a negative level isn't necessarily caused by Negative energy, then energy drain isn't them pulling out any particular type of energy (like Positive, Fire, Water, etc.), but the 'energy' gained from one's life force. The temporary hit points gained could be the stolen metabolism invigorating them with more ferocity, or what have you. Like an energy drink or stimpack of some sort, except undead wouldn't feel any fatigue after being powered up briefly. That's what I think, anyway.
Ebonyte 04-09-07, 01:46 PM	Well, Necromancy is the manipulation of life energy, according to the PHB and so on. Negative Energy is also described as being the antithesis of life force, or the power of death. It directly attacks a creatures life essence. Being that Positive Energy is it's opposite, it stands to reason that Positive Energy is, in fact, life energy.
Khael 04-09-07, 02:04 PM	Actually, in the book serries "The Coldfire Trilogy" (awesome books by CS Friedman), one character uses Coldfire, which is a type of "magic" which cannot heal in the traditional sense, to race through a sick man's veins and wounds, killing infection and reducing his fever to save his life. I've actually used this method playing a Necromancer to kill the bad parts and spare the good. After all, a real doctor has to do some cutting to do surgery, right? Sonuds an unconventional, though good idea for a necromancer to have a job outside of raising the dead :). Personally, I prefer a little more similarity to the living in terms of independence from their plane of sustenance when it comes to my games. as a human is a small island of positive energy, of a sort, so is an undead a small island of negative. And for one reason more than any other: according to the rules on extraplanar creatures, a celestial, demon, devil, etc, is a creature with a link to another plane. Severing that link sends them back to that plane. So why aren't undead considered extraplanar then? Or why wouldn't extraplanar spells affect them. After all, they are, according to this, physical agents of the hunger of the Negative Energy Plane. Undead though they have a connection to the negative energy plane, are beings of the material usually. Banishment severs a link to a plane, but undead don't have a link in the same way: An extraplanar creature in effect focuses its being across the planes into a shell-form, An undead is the very stuff of a plane focused into a body lying about, does banishment null a gate spell?. For that matter, how does that explain a succubus's energy draining kiss? It's them stealing the soul of someone with a kiss, right? It's not going to the negative energy plane, the demon isn't undead or connected to that plane, it's connected to the Abyss. And, as I understand it, it's keeping that soul for itself, eating it. Becasue succubi steal a soul, undead attack with negative energy. You'll have noticed succubi don't gain hp from their drain, because they follow a totally different form of attack, but one that rules-wise is represented in the same way. An undead (we reckon as a group, it seems) runs negative energy though its victim, a succubi just drains the soul, because it can (How is a totally different question: Maybe succubi have no normal soul, and so are a vacuum that rends the soul from a mortal frame. We don't know.).
Ebonyte 04-09-07, 09:18 PM	I can see where you are all coming from, but the term "energy drain" suggests taking positive energy to me, not giving negative. And it still seems Libris Mortis suggests it's a dietary requirement. I'm thinking of "I'll swallow your soul!" here.
Khael 04-10-07, 05:03 AM	Theres just one problem with full-on soul-swallowing though: If they kill you then technically you can't be ressed by anything short of wish/deities, since the soul is consumed/ destroyed. This is what I've always disliked about the idea of a soul-eater by the rules: If they do steal anothers soul, it can be raise dead, and the only way round this, is to raise that victim as undead, but then it shouldn't have a soul, the eater should have the victims. BUT by the rules if the victims friends destroyed the undead form of the victim, his soul is free'ed?! Despite the fact another creature entirely stole the soul...
Evil DM Mk3 04-10-07, 06:09 AM	Just to clear up a point here, sentient undead have souls, in fact some are nothing else...
Khael 04-10-07, 08:33 AM	Exactly. If energy drain steal souls, how can a vampire or a wight, who steal soul for their own power(by this logic), raise an ensouled undead spawn? Where do they get an extra soul to have fed on, or to be in the spawn? Therefore I find its better to use the negative/postive connections as the excuse for undead energy drain, rather than the soul stealing excuse used by outsider-types (Succubi, soul-eater's (who get given their power apparently as a result of dark gods, dark magic etc.), who normally at least don't raise spawn (Though the soul-eater is a serious wench in any energy drain argument - it steals souls, all the PrCs powers use energy from having stolen souls, but it raises its victims as wights. Wights like most sentient undead, have souls. So it feeds off souls it left in the victim... Rrrrrighttt.)
Naderion 04-10-07, 09:13 AM	I worked on the whole negative energy thing this morning for my campaign and came up with this: In its "natural" state, the whole multiverse had a balance of one force called positive energy and one called negative energy, that poured into it from the planes of Positive and Negative Energy. The big cause of confusion are the names positive and negative, because they really have no similarities to electricity and magnetism. They can be better compared to acids and bases in chemistry. Both are able to cause some action (dissolving matter or life/undead) but if they mix, they neutralize each other completely when in balance. So before creation, the whole multiverse was dead because positive and negative energy where in perfect balance. But even in this void of dead matter two enteties came into existance and they managed to cause a strong boost of positive energy into the world and since then there is more positive energy which enables life and created everything. Not really important for the understandig of undeath, but if positive and negaive energy are equal you need some kind of explanation why the world isn't inhabited by 50% living and 50% undead creatures. In older books, it was stated that many undead have a connection to the plane of negative energy and this can explain their energy drain ablities. Again, the word is misleading because they don't pull positive energy from their victims (wich would harm themself). They are in fact unliving gateways between the plane of negative energy and the material plane but the negative energy can only flow through them if it has somewhere to go (this time actually like electricity), which has to be a living being. If it just causes damage, negative energy flows into their victim and neutralizes its positive energy, effectively causing damage. Some more powerfull undead are able to not let all the negative energy flow into the victim, but catch half of it for themself to heal their wounds. I know, it's nerdy, but some people just like to be able to have natural laws for such things because it serves as a good starting piont to develop new abilites that actually can work together. :D
Ebonyte 04-10-07, 10:49 AM	I still prefer to think that, like the soul-eater PrC and so on, undead actually consume soulstuff, which is specially metabolized positive energy. I find it akin to a vampire that can't eat food, but has to consume the blood that was produced by eating food. Ah, dichotomy. Also, personally, I like to think that the spawn-producing undead like the wight aren't actually eating the entirety of the soul. Instead, they are taking it's vital energy (art-wise, like stealing the color but leaving the shape of a statue) but leaving the core of the soul intact. Imagine a heart deprived of blood, in the case of the vampire. The contact with the undead in question mutates the heart (or soul, in this case) so that it can try to consume the same in an effort to stay alive.
Khael 04-10-07, 02:11 PM	Naderion's theory... This idea I like, its another interesting take. I still prefer to think that, like the soul-eater PrC and so on, undead actually consume soulstuff, which is specially metabolized positive energy. I find it akin to a vampire that can't eat food, but has to consume the blood that was produced by eating food. Ah, dichotomy. Also, personally, I like to think that the spawn-producing undead like the wight aren't actually eating the entirety of the soul. Instead, they are taking it's vital energy (art-wise, like stealing the color but leaving the shape of a statue) but leaving the core of the soul intact. Imagine a heart deprived of blood, in the case of the vampire. The contact with the undead in question mutates the heart (or soul, in this case) so that it can try to consume the same in an effort to stay alive. I personally think the idea of the soul as positive energy has some merit (Especially thinking back to MoI and the bastion of souls on the positive energy plane). However based on the same stuff I myself don't believe the undead can attack the soul, for the exact same reason: If energy drain attacks the soul, how come theres no effect on incarnum. Incarnum, if you don't already know, is basically soul-stuff channelled by its wielders in to magic-item-like effects. BUT theres no special effects by energy drain etc. to suggest they have any effect on it, which if they did attack the soul, it should have, especially if the energy drain only attacks the least essential parts.