Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sciborg3 11-02-07, 10:15 AM	did anyone save the website these guys originated from? (glances hopefully at Rip with puppy doggy eyes) anyone use them in adventures against the Baern? (puppy dog eyes at Shemmy) anyone ever stat them? (puppy dog eyes at the Darkwinds) anyone have any opinions/ideas at all? (set puppy dog eyes from precision to wide angle ray attack)
Sorcen_Anenooata 11-02-07, 10:41 AM	I'm definitely interested to learn more. I've only heard the occasional mention of the primal beings of good that mirror the Baern with being aloof and all powerful beings of the purest good and (purely my speculation) possibly created the three races of celestials to combat the three races of fiends with the Gaurdinals being the purest beings of good since the Priminals possible departure from the Great Wheel at the time of the Baern's possible departure. I like to have a perfect mirror of the evil for the sake of order but hopefully its a bit more eventful than my explanation.
ripvanwormer 11-02-07, 12:50 PM	Yeah, send me your email address.
Thegans 11-02-07, 04:08 PM	Out of curiosity. What the hell is a priminal?
WombleHunter 11-02-07, 05:52 PM	You know about the baernoloths? Good versions of them. They look like monkeys?
Thegans 11-02-07, 06:11 PM	You know about the baernoloths? Good versions of them. They look like monkeys? And I thought the baern were obscure. So baernoloths are goat things and priminals are monkey things. Seems like an odd combination.
Return of the Flumph 11-02-07, 07:03 PM	And I thought the baern were obscure. So baernoloths are goat things and priminals are monkey things. Seems like an odd combination. Um...goats are bad, monkeys are good. Always. Did you honestly not know that?
Thegans 11-02-07, 07:12 PM	Um...goats are bad, monkeys are good. Always. Did you honestly not know that? Well I knew about the goats but I thought monkeys were chaotic neutral. (P.S. See the begining parts of Journey to the West if you don't get it.)
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-02-07, 07:22 PM	From what I recall, they weren't monkeys like the little energetic buggers, they were more like wise, calm, great apes. I also kind of connect them with Zen principles in some ways, and sometimes thought of them looking like monks. I like the idea very much, though my view of the celestials has a progneiter for each alignment.
Deacon Liadon 11-02-07, 07:25 PM	Out of curiosity. What the hell is a priminal? The "priminals" are the rumoured progenitors of the guardianals, just as the baern are the progenitors of the 'loths. Unfortunately, we know even less about them than we do the Baern. After all, we know that the Baern exist. They've been statted. One even appeared in an official Planescape adventure.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-02-07, 08:14 PM	The "priminals" are the rumoured progenitors of the guardianals, just as the baern are the progenitors of the 'loths. While there was the assumption (never developed really) that if the cardinal alignments each had primordial progenitor races, with Good surely having something to match the baernaloths, only the baern were named in specific. The word "priminal" never actually appears in print however. It was coined (and developed) by Dave King on his website as I recall. anyone use them in adventures against the Baern? (puppy dog eyes at Shemmy) They appear in SH1, along with a reason why Evil seems rather predominant at times in my conceptualization of the Great Wheel. And one of them will show up in SH2 briefly. My version of them is radically different from King's monkey-like priminals (and I don't use the name he created). I wasn't actually aware of his work when I worked up my spin on the idea.
Gray Richardson 11-06-07, 07:30 PM	So baernoloths are goat things and priminals are monkey things. Seems like an odd combination.Baernaloths look like goats because they were originally fallen cervidals corrupted by Ahriman (better known these days as Asmodeus). :devil:
Thegans 11-06-07, 08:40 PM	Baernaloths look like goats because they were originally fallen cervidals corrupted by Ahriman (better known these days as Asmodeus). :devil: So basiclly Asmodeous controls the devils and the yuggoloth.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-06-07, 08:45 PM	Baernaloths look like goats because they were originally fallen cervidals corrupted by Ahriman (better known these days as Asmodeus). :devil: So basiclly Asmodeous controls the devils and the yuggoloth. I'll note that Gray is joking.
Thegans 11-06-07, 08:49 PM	I'll note that Gray is joking. In that case I'll note that I forgot what a cervidal is and I never heard of the name Ahriman before that post.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-06-07, 09:01 PM	In that case I'll note that I forgot what a cervidal is and I never heard of the name Ahriman before that post. Cervidals were the lowest form of guardinals, looked a bit like satyrs; Ahriman was the evil god from Zoarosterian mythology who some writers have linked to Asmodeus. I really hope Gray's joking.
WombleHunter 11-07-07, 05:32 PM	Nah, Ahriman is foremost sorcerer of the Thousand Sons Legion. Damn, wrong universe by a factor of several.
Kain_Darkwind 11-07-07, 08:19 PM	Baernaloths look like goats because they were originally fallen cervidals corrupted by Ahriman (better known these days as Asmodeus). :devil: I like this theory. Asmodeus creates the Baern, who then begin a massive lie campaign that they created the yugoloths, baatezu and tanar'ri.
Witch 11-07-07, 08:36 PM	That'd just be awesome.
Gray Richardson 11-08-07, 08:53 AM	I'll note that Gray is joking.Only half joking. It's actually quite plausible. No one knows the origins of the Baernaloths. When the serpent of law was sundered, and Ahriman fell, we know he corrupted many of the servants of law and good. It would not surprise me at all if the Baernaloths started out as humble cervidal servants of the True Good, fell to evil, staked out some unclaimed territory in Oinos, and from there sought to elevate themselves as the ultimate powers of Hades. :devil:
Shemeska the Marauder 11-08-07, 12:09 PM	Only half joking. It's actually quite plausible. No one knows the origins of the Baernaloths. When the serpent of law was sundered, and Ahriman fell, we know he corrupted many of the servants of law and good. It would not surprise me at all if the Baernaloths started out as humble cervidal servants of the True Good, fell to evil, staked out some unclaimed territory in Oinos, and from there sought to elevate themselves as the ultimate powers of Hades. :devil: Except that we do know an origin story of the Baernaloths (from two different IC sources) and a slew of circumstantial evidence that backs up its core points. The Serpent of Law however seems to have been entirely dropped, and it never appeared outside of GtH anyway. Asmodeus wouldn't have had a role in any putative origin of the baernaloths, because they appear to predate him, and if there was any influence to be found, it's likely the other way around and one degree removed (Asmo being corrupted away from pure Law through his encounters with the baernaloth created obyriths). I could just as easily go on wild speculation for other topics: Mungoth, the third furnace of Gehenna was ancient, formed along with the other layers of the plane in time immemorial by the proto-yugoloths as a reaction to the exile of Apomps and the creation of Carceri. That was one version of the orthodox history of the plane at least, but the history of the event was shrouded in mystery, with a number of apocryphal variants existing within the libraries of Khin-Oin and the archives of the Tower Arcane. The second great ‘loth tower was eons younger than Gehenna itself of course, though many historians, even among the fiends, simply assumed that when Larsdana Ap Neut had sunk the first foundation stones of her tower onto the burning slopes of Chamada, the plane to which she had linked the essence of her entire caste of yugoloths had only recently been formed from the metaphysical nothingness between the primordial, unmixed planes of the pure alignments. Apocrypha spoke differently, and it spoke in a void of tangible historical facts. Larsdana had conveniently enough failed to include swathes of history into her tower’s memory pool, and though assumed dead, her own memories were not within the tower’s communal memories either. The records failed to address the earliest moments of Gehenna’s history, and only a discrete few beings, those who had personally lived during that period of proto-history still remembered the truth of the matter. For anyone not among their select number, apocrypha would have to suffice. Apocrypha spoke legends at odds with the speculations of the rank and file scribes and scholars of the yugoloth race. Even among a race of fiends who collectively knew a version of history more factual than their younger cousins in the Abyss and Baator respectively, their knowledge of Gehenna’s origins was occluded by a lack of material and perhaps deliberate muddying of history. Gehenna was formed by the migration of yugoloths from the Waste seeking to react against the formation of Carceri by Apomp’s thrice-damned brood. That was one version. The fourfold furnace was formed when the General of Gehenna ripped up whole sections of the Waste and hurled them into the unformed void of what would become his namesake plane. Another version that happily flattered the yugoloth orthodoxy. These were not the only legends though. Gehenna was formed by the exile of those yugoloths who defied the General of Gehenna and refused to submit to his authority and the purge of Law and Chaos from their essence at the order of the Baernaloths whom later generations would call The Demented. Was this version of history fact, or simply another subjective truth? The furnaces formed around the footsteps of Hazarik Ap Neut, ‘The Shackler’ as he carried the larvae that would become the Baatezu, or perhaps the Ancient Baatorians, as he wandered his way towards the nascent Plane of Law with a poisoned brood and a smile on his lips, whispering to serpents all the while. The furnaces crystallized around the entombed bodies of Yrsinius the Elder, Joleb Ap Corpus, Phleboerus zef Thiragoth, and Trypanos vath Chagarn. The Diseased Trinity and the Rotting Prince were killed or dismembered, their bodies hurled into the void between the proto-Waste and the plane of proto-Law, spreading their spiritual filth like an infection, forming the islands of pain and flame which their wayward children would come to populate in time as a second homeland. Lazarius, Chorazin, Tellura, and Ghoresh Ibn Shartalan had each formed and sculpted one of the furnaces from the living bodies of four titanic beings that had inhabited the empty void. The First House had come upon then, whispered them to slumber and then like egg-laden wasps they had planted their seed in fallow flesh like living incubators for a metaphysical form that would spawn from them to replace the nothingness and populate the void for the yugoloths who would come. It's fun, but it's hardly grounded in canon. Names might appear, but beyond that I won't claim it's anything more than me having playing and toying with the facts. The best cohesive history of the planes that we have, has the baern as existing at the same period of pre-history as the nameless beings of Law that created Asmodeus and then exiled him, not afterwards.
ripvanwormer 11-08-07, 01:06 PM	Baernaloths look like goats because they were originally fallen cervidals corrupted by Ahriman (better known these days as Asmodeus). The guardinals and true-breeding yugoloths have perfect parallels already. There are, according to 2e sources (I'm ignoring the MMIV's ecologies for the sake of this argument), only three castes of yugoloths that can reproduce their own kind when they breed sexually: mezzoloths, nycoloths, and arcanaloths. Ultroloths, whose caste must be earned, give birth to arcanaloths. Everything else is an artificial creation that spawns young mezzoloths. We can deduce, therefore, that in the beginning there were only three castes of each race. From the depths of the Waste came the lowly mezzoloths, the spying winged nycoloths, and sagely arcanaloths. From the glory of Elysium came the innocent cervidals, the curious winged avorals, and the sagely ursinals. Eventually, both races created new castes. The first to come, I would guess, were the ultroloths and the leonals. The ultroloths were arcanaloths who stole their position by destroying their creators, the baernfathers. Since then, new arcanaloths have only come into being by destroying existring ultroloths. The leonals, on the other hand, were gifts, brought into being by priminals who willingly sacrificed themselves to give them life. Under the leadership of the ultroloths and leonals, further warrior races were created (dergholoths and higher among the 'loths, lupinals and equinals among the guardinals) to execute battles and skirmishes between Good and Evil, once Good and Evil realized one another existed. The other story of the origin of the ultroloths and leonals is more subtle. The first ultroloth (who would become the General of Gehenna) and the first leonal (who was not Talisid, but someone older whose name has been lost) came into being when an arcanaloth and an ursinal understood one another for the first time. It was this shock - Good truly comprehending the nature of Evil, and Evil truly grasping the nature of Good - that provoked the transformation, and made them worthy to lead their respective peoples. Not Falling, not Rising, but simply Knowing their enemy for what it was. Baernaloths don't really look that much like goats, anyway.
sciborg3 11-08-07, 01:16 PM	Hmmm...this idea of corrupted guardinals (or perhaps some ancestor to the modern guardianls) is interesting. If Asmodeus was a Serpent who was literally the foundation if not incarnation of one-half of reality, who knows exactly when and how he might have corrupted many servants of Good to his cause...
ripvanwormer 11-08-07, 05:17 PM	Evil created by a primordial personification of Law? Haha, I suppose. Was Good created by Law as well? I can sorta see it working, if you're going with the idea that Good and Evil were indistinguishable before Law defined the two. If so, Jazirian and Asmodeus might have brought the baernaloths and priminals into being by allowing them to distinguish themselves from the chaotic background. Or maybe Evil was created by Law while Good was created by a being of Chaos? That would only work if you decide, outright, that Chaos is "more good" than Law is, at least in its original state. That'd be a twisted campaign. If you're assuming that Good was pre-existent and Evil didn't exist until Asmodeus created it, though, that throws off the cosmological symmetry quite a lot. It suggests that Evil is beholden to Law in a way that Good is not. Unless Asmodeus isn't orderly to you (in which case, he's really just a baernaloth under a different name, as Tharizdun is in the proposed 4e creation myth). Otherwise, I don't see any logic to it. If you're allowing for the presence of pre-existent Evil that inspired Asmodeus' fall from lawful purity, and saying the baernaloths are something else (that is to say, the baernaloths aren't really baernaloths), that's perfectly self-consistent, of course.
setekh 11-08-07, 05:49 PM	Nah, Ahriman is foremost sorcerer of the Thousand Sons Legion. Damn, wrong universe by a factor of several. :heehee I'm sure you could find basically ever Demon, Devil and Yugoloth as some kind of Chaos Space marine. If only because they steal from the same sources.
Gray Richardson 11-08-07, 08:45 PM	I like this theory. Asmodeus creates the Baern, who then begin a massive lie campaign that they created the yugoloths, baatezu and tanar'ri.I have long believed that the 'loths have been perpetrating a lie that they created the tanar'ri and the baatezu. It is a very old lie, I'll grant you. So old that many, I am sure, believe it. However, everything seems to point to the origin of Chaos first. Law next, and Good & Evil after. Slaadi and Obyriths (or perhaps some form of proto-slaad-demon preceding even them) were likely the first outsiders. I see Slaadi and Obyriths as chaotic cousins, separate branches of the race that were once the exemplars of primal chaos. Notice that the Queen of Chaos has no mention of "evil" in her name? A strong hint that she has her origins in an era before Chaos was undifferentiated between Good and Evil. How that differentiation came about, I don't know. It might have happened when the Serpent of Law split in two. Like when the ice breaks on a frozen river, the rent can rapidly reach to the other side of the river. If that is the case, then Asmodeus/Ahriman may have caused a lot more than his own forces of Law to fall to evil. I could easily see his fall as the start of a meme, a seed, a novel idea, or a Banksian "Out of Context Problem" that first caused the ethically neutral factions, balanced between (or unconcerned with) Law and Chaos, to precipitate into new factions centered around these new concepts of Good and Evil. And these new alignments would pull heavily on the primal chaos to split it as well. Perhaps there was once a single race of ethically neutral outsiders that split at this time into two races of Good and Evil. Maybe the real parallel to be drawn is that the lupinals and arcanaloths spun off from each other, while the avorals and nycaloths spun off from each other, and the baern and the cervidals spun off from each other. The Baern would later elevate themselves above their evil brethren, replacing their rank with the mezzoloths. While I think that the Slaad and Obyriths likely predated everyone, I do find myself persuaded by Rip's proposition that the Baern may have been responsible for corrupting the Obyriths from true chaos. Or, at least, simply made them aware of their own evil. I take it that the Slaad lords fixed the slaadi in their current forms after the Obyriths split off, maybe even as a consequence of the Obyrith migration to evil. I guess, in that sense, perhaps the Baern myth is true in a fashion, not that they physically created the demons, but maybe caused them to fall to evil. Heck, maybe they can also take credit for sundering the Serpent of Law as well. As Yeats once said: "Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned" Yeah, I think that poem pretty much sums up the Baern to a tee.
Gray Richardson 11-08-07, 08:59 PM	The Serpent of Law however seems to have been entirely dropped, and it never appeared outside of GtH anyway.Not so! It was specifically reiterated in the 3E Manual of the Planes p.123, wherein it discusses Asmodeus's "true form" as a titanic, miles long, fallen serpent lying secretly in the deepest rift of the Serpent's Coil in the depths of Nessus. It suggests that Asmodeus's more human visage is merely a projected image or avatar. While it does present the information as a secret, or as forgotten lore, or rumor, it also implies strongly that there is something to it, as people who talk about Asmodeus's "true form" die mysteriously within 24 hours after repeating it aloud. If true, perhaps I have put my very life in jeopardy by discussing it :eek: but maybe that explains why Shemmy denies it so vociferously. :devil: There is also a nod to the myth (albeit an oblique one) in the 3.5 Tyrants of Hell sourcebook, Asmodeus still has the wounds that he suffered in his fall after the sundering of the Serpent of Law. The blood from his wounds is still said to spawn pit fiends, and the Serpent's Coil is still a geographic feature of Nessus. While it doesn't say explicitly that he used to be a serpent (that info is supposed to be a secret, right?) all the trappings of the myth are preserved. :devil:
ripvanwormer 11-08-07, 09:22 PM	The only physical similarity between baernaloths and cervidals is the presence of horns, by which standard kobolds, marching bands, cornugons, bariaurs, tertian modrons, glabrezu, Malcanthet and Graz'zt must be descended from cervidals as well. Perhaps cervidals are the first true outer planar race, from which all others derive? Cervidals are depicted with human faces, fur, and hooves; baernaloths are depicted with none of these things. I wouldn't put much stock in superficial similarities in appearance in any case, not with spiritual creatures (although I'm still fond of my theory that hound archons are descended from lupinals).
Kain_Darkwind 11-08-07, 10:38 PM	Evil created by a primordial personification of Law? Haha, I suppose. Was Good created by Law as well? I can sorta see it working, if you're going with the idea that Good and Evil were indistinguishable before Law defined the two. If so, Jazirian and Asmodeus might have brought the baernaloths and priminals into being by allowing them to distinguish themselves from the chaotic background. Or maybe Evil was created by Law while Good was created by a being of Chaos? That would only work if you decide, outright, that Chaos is "more good" than Law is, at least in its original state. That'd be a twisted campaign. If you're assuming that Good was pre-existent and Evil didn't exist until Asmodeus created it, though, that throws off the cosmological symmetry quite a lot. It suggests that Evil is beholden to Law in a way that Good is not. Unless Asmodeus isn't orderly to you (in which case, he's really just a baernaloth under a different name, as Tharizdun is in the proposed 4e creation myth). Otherwise, I don't see any logic to it. If you're allowing for the presence of pre-existent Evil that inspired Asmodeus' fall from lawful purity, and saying the baernaloths are something else (that is to say, the baernaloths aren't really baernaloths), that's perfectly self-consistent, of course. Well, I freely admit the chief attraction of the theory is the frantic denial of its veracity by 'loth fans. However, I don't think 'Good' actually was created by Law. Or by Chaos. It was created by mortals, who needed something to believe in, to cling to in the face of absolute destruction at the hands of Evil. There is no Good. It's an illusion. That's why there is a Fiendish Codex 1&2 and not a single Celestial Codex. That's why the 3.5 stats from the BoED archangels don't reflect any of the improvements 3.5 made on creatures, allowing solars to supercede them in several areas. That's why the solar (and planetar) didn't get as much of an overhaul as the 3.0 pit fiend in 3.5. Good is a comforting lie for the Mortal Coil. Asmodeus is the only truth.
Gray Richardson 11-08-07, 11:01 PM	Well, to be fair, the Baerns are depicted as some kind of skeletal goat/humanoid thing. The cervidals are depicted as goaty humanoids. It could be they both had a common form long ago, something that looked more goaty and alive. After they diverged, the baern became more decrepit, skeletal and scary looking, whereas the cervidal features became more humanly, friendly and benevolent. It only stands to reason that the appearances of outsiders have changed through the eons. The ethically neutral exemplars probably diverged at an early point in the universe before humans existed (at least as they are today). Don't forget that the Obyriths are pre-humanoid, they look it too, and we are talking a similar time period for the baern-cervidal split. Before humans were around, you would not expect outsiders to reflect the human form. Back in the early ages of the cosmos, neither would Asmodeus have looked human, his form would have been more primal then. A giant serpent is well in line with what one might expect. I would imagine that the guardinals looked closer to the animal forms they derived from at some earlier point in their development. Lamassu and Shedu likewise would not have had human faces early on. Couatls, Kirin, and other non-humanoid outsiders are doubtless far older than the more humanoid ones, and are holdovers from a time when the vast majority of believers in the universe were non-humanoid. Only later, when humanoids came on the scene, did the outsiders with human features spring up or evolve out of older forms. In that context, it is easy to see how, say, lupinals, hound archons, and arcanaloths (for example) could have once shared a common form, or even cervidals and baernaloths, for that matter, though they may look very different from each other in modern times.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-08-07, 11:44 PM	Well, I freely admit the chief attraction of the theory is the frantic denial of its veracity by 'loth fans. However, I don't think 'Good' actually was created by Law. Or by Chaos. It was created by mortals, who needed something to believe in, to cling to in the face of absolute destruction at the hands of Evil. There is no Good. It's an illusion. That's why there is a Fiendish Codex 1&2 and not a single Celestial Codex. That's why the 3.5 stats from the BoED archangels don't reflect any of the improvements 3.5 made on creatures, allowing solars to supercede them in several areas. That's why the solar (and planetar) didn't get as much of an overhaul as the 3.0 pit fiend in 3.5. Good is a comforting lie for the Mortal Coil. Asmodeus is the only truth. Awfully depressing, don't you think? Besides, even where the Baernaloths are present, Good is an awfully huge lie. I think Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, and Balance were all present at the beginning of the multiverse. I'm beginning to think that the Obyriths were actually the primitive Chaotic beings, many who followed the path of the Queen of Chaos, while some mindlessly copulated into the Slaad, while the palaces and playthings of the others became the ruins of Pelion, with one leaving behind her dreaming children the Eladrin. Considering that the Baern represent very deep, constant universal truths on Evil (That is, if they really are the big people on it), I doubt that they have changed much over time. The Cervidals, probably, since as common exemplars they are made from mortal soulstuff, which definately changes over time. But that's just my opinion.
sciborg3 11-09-07, 12:01 AM	"I was told your story was always a generational one." -Alex Ross, Kingdom Come Before all this there was a Garden. A place where flora and fauna shone and glittered with the beauty of the hummingbird, as if living things might be born from the heart of gemstones. Watered with tears of joy and mercy, droplets catching the light, twinkling with lapidary beauty. This was a place of the original things - Virtue and Love - unsullied by fiendish hands. There were no kings or queens in this place, but there were parents/sheperds/gardeners that cared for all the innocent children of the Good. These simian caretakers would be named Priminals by their children, a name to invoke both in blessing and in curse. Lost to the fathomless depths of Time is when the garden was first beset by whispering cries and hissing temptations, when the priminals first realized that there was an outside to their infinite garden. When did they first find their brethren, those strange creatures that were inexplicably but inexorably tied to them? When did they first treat with the Baern? What is known is that the priminals were in truth circles with no boundaries, for their hearts circumscribed even these vile fiends. This led to their initial defeat for the Baern were quick to exploit what they saw as a flaw, never imagining that within Good lay the resolve to fight. They simply couldn't look that deeply into the lustre of the garden. Over forgotten generations, the priminals came to see that, in a sense, they were flawed for they loved too much to strike down those corrupted in flesh or in soul by the Baern. They simply did not possess the conviction for murder, for killing, for war. Yet they persevered long enough to deny the Baern, long enough for those perhaps ever unknowable events to end the Primordial Age. After this, there was no Garden. In the dawning reconfiguration of infinities, ape-like feet alighted upon what was to become Elysium. Here they shed tears and seed to make their children, purposefully imperfect remakings of themselves. The guardinals, made to know Love but never as deeply, as openly as the priminals. For they were made to protect the Good, and thus bred for what the priminals despaired would be an unceasing armageddon. Knowing that this crime of passing their burdens, their failures onto a new generation would forever taint them, they left the Multiverse with burdened hearts. Yet even in their mysterious home they feel that first brush of unlooked for hope. They see a time when the Baern are destroyed yet reborn in innocence, when the stone hearts of fiends crack in guilt and bleed out of sorrow and repentance. Where all things are encompassed by a flooding redemption. The ape-like countenances of these elder celestials smile and tears of joy fall in the endless dreaming that attaches them to their children by gossamer threadwork. But now they are awakening, for victory sits on Time's horizon. They have seen the future, been gifted with Sight.
Thegans 11-09-07, 01:43 AM	Well, I freely admit the chief attraction of the theory is the frantic denial of its veracity by 'loth fans. However, I don't think 'Good' actually was created by Law. Or by Chaos. It was created by mortals, who needed something to believe in, to cling to in the face of absolute destruction at the hands of Evil. There is no Good. It's an illusion. That's why there is a Fiendish Codex 1&2 and not a single Celestial Codex. That's why the 3.5 stats from the BoED archangels don't reflect any of the improvements 3.5 made on creatures, allowing solars to supercede them in several areas. That's why the solar (and planetar) didn't get as much of an overhaul as the 3.0 pit fiend in 3.5. Good is a comforting lie for the Mortal Coil. Asmodeus is the only truth. I'm ssusming you saw the post with the theory that the top layer of Celestia leads to Asmodeous, or the Ninth Layer of Baator, I forgot which.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-09-07, 09:46 AM	I'm ssusming you saw the post with the theory that the top layer of Celestia leads to Asmodeous, or the Ninth Layer of Baator, I forgot which. What if the inverse is true: If you travel all the way down to Nessus, you go back up to Chronias.
sciborg3 11-09-07, 11:33 AM	Well that isn't true - I traveled pretty far down and just ended up at McDonalds...and now Ronald haunts my dreams accompanied by fried blobs of chicken flesh that act like children....