Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ye' Cind 07-04-07, 06:00 PM	For a long time I toyed with the idea of creating a Persian-like dualistic campaign. I even made some research on Zoroastrianism, and came up with: Elishar= Ahura Mazda Toldoth= Ahriman However, the way the DnD 3.5 Deities and Demi-Gods handled these two Gods created some problems: 1-They are made to represent Good(+energy) vs Evil(-energy) In fact , they are the very sentient embodiment or manifestation of the two opposite energy planes. They actually LIVE on those two planes respectively. This means that a DM who decides to make a dualistic campaign must accept the fact that positive energy is good, while negative energy is evil. The many discussions about this issue on this board do not seem to agree with this idea. 2- If Elishar and Toldoth represent +ve and -ve energy, respectively, then how does a necromancer function?? How could a wizard, who specializes in the necromancy school , possibly tap into the -ve energy plane ,while somehow by-passing Toldoth??.:confused: I think it would be better , in such a system, to cancel the necromancy school altogether, and leave the domain of "death and the undead" strictly for evil clerics. Otherwise, the line which seperates clerics of Toldoth from necromancers becomes a mind-boggling issue. 3- In such a strict dualistic system, Neutral clerics are not allowed. It even says so in Deities and Demigods. Clerics MUST chose a side, and there is no "grey" area. If you want to be neutral, then you must be a druid, and tap into nature and the elemental planes. If anyone has some ideas about how to improve upon the way dualism was handled in the 3.5e Deities and Demigods, I would really appreciate it if she/he would share them, because I am not very keen on the idea of having 2 Gods residing on the +ve and -ve energy planes.
Rerecros 07-04-07, 06:12 PM	I don't really see the problem, negative energy and undead by RAW is fairly evil. Many necromancer spells have the evil subtype. There are a lot of people touchy on this subject, and they can house rule, but for your campain RAW works in your favor. :D I don't see why you can't have neutral clerics, both good and evil gods would take in neutral worshippers. If you only have two gods, then the alignment prereqs could be; negative god: any non-good positive god: any non-evil
hazhar 07-04-07, 08:00 PM	They are made to represent Good(+energy) vs Evil(-energy) In fact , they are the very sentient embodiment or manifestation of the two opposite energy planes. They actually LIVE on those two planes respectively. This means that a DM who decides to make a dualistic campaign must accept the fact that positive energy is good, while negative energy is evil. The many discussions about this issue on this board do not seem to agree with this idea. I think the resistance to the idea is essentially to do with wanting the cosmos to be tidy :P In the standard cosmology, it makes no sense that the Inner Planes should have anything to do with alignment, as that's the domain of the Outer Planes. It's messy to have a system that essentially implies that that duality exists in the Inner Planes where it shouldn't really belong. Perhaps a drastic way to fix the problem would be to re-order things so that your evil God resides in a new combined plane with characteristics of both the Evil Outer Planes and the Negative Energy Plane, from which both Negative Energy and Evilness come; and a corresponding combined Positive Energy/Goodness Plane opposing it in which the good God dwells.
Rerecros 07-04-07, 08:32 PM	The eberron sorta did that with the plane of mabar, it's like cross between hades and the negative planes, and succubi and bargests are there as well. Just place all the fiends and undead on one plane and all the celestials on the other. Outsiders and elementals that don't belong in either can stay on the prime, like water elementals and tritons live in the sea, earth elementals live underground, fire elementals live in volcanoes ect... When a good person dies they go to a good plane, when a bad person dies they go to the bad plane, when a neutral person who worships neither god dies they they become earth boud spirits until they choose a side.
caeruleus 07-04-07, 08:45 PM	I think the problem lies in this assumption: Elishar= Ahura Mazda Toldoth= Ahriman If you don't like Elishar and Toldoth, don't use them. Or at least remove the associations to the energy planes. Besides, Zoroastrianism wouldn't have the D&D cosmology.
Millennium 07-04-07, 09:01 PM	2- If Elishar and Toldoth represent +ve and -ve energy, respectively, then how does a necromancer function?? How could a wizard, who specializes in the necromancy school , possibly tap into the -ve energy plane ,while somehow by-passing Toldoth??.:confused: Elishar's followers believe that Toldoth uses many different guises and techniques to mislead people. Why not have this be at least partially true? Toldoth allows necromancers to use negative energy because it is another way of spreading his influence through the world, either directly (by creating undead) or indirectly. As such, necromancers don't actually bypass Toldoth, per se.
Millennium 07-05-07, 04:07 PM	To put it another way, Elishar's followers have a policy of "you're either with us or against us"; things that are not "of Elishar" are "of Toldoth" even if they're not explicitly committed to Toldoth. This suits Toldoth just fine, because it means that Toldoth gets all the neutral parties without having to expend any extra effort. That's a pretty sweet deal for Toldoth, so why should it complain? This is expressed in spellcasting as well. Elishar demands commitment, in the form of divine spellcasting originating from worship, before it will allow someone to access positive energy. Toldoth doesn't require this sort of commitment before allowing access to negative energy, because by Elishar's own rules it doesn't have to: your soul belongs to Toldoth either way as long as you keep using the stuff.