Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Violet Typhoon 07-19-07, 09:49 AM	I was doing my tai chi last night and out of nowhere, I realized something about the Githyanki (nothing like martial arts to give you bursts of enlightenment, eh?). I had always wondered why the Lich Queen had that policy of killing anyone over 16th level, since it seems counter-productive. The explanation in-game has always been that she wants to prevent usurpation of control, but I realized that the meta-game reason is so that Githyanki don't become the most powerful race in the multiverse. I mean, living on the Astral Plane as they do, they'd never die of old age, so they could theoretically train for as long as they wanted and reach ridiculous levels of power and experience. The designers put in the lich queen as an explanation of why all Githyanki aren't level 20. Very clever of them, eh? Of course, with that realization came another question: if they live on a timeless plane, how do they reproduce? If they don't heal or age naturally, that means they can't grow up, inside or outside of a mother's womb. Do the gith keep habitats on planes with normal time, where they have babies and let them grow up to adulthood before moving back to the Astral, or are we supposed to believe that the Githyanki that exist today are all the gith there have ever been since they first emigrated? Timeless planes are weird, of course, but I'm just curious what the various planar experts here thought about this, or if this information has ever been covered in a book I haven't read.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-19-07, 09:55 AM	Githyanki lay their eggs on hidden fortresses on various prime material worlds. Once their children reach a certain age of maturity, they travel back to the Astral. There are also said to be such places constructed on the surface of specific godisles in the Astral which are the corpses of dead gods of time, and whose gravity wells negate the timeless trait of the Astral at large.
Violet Typhoon 07-19-07, 10:03 AM	I didn't even know that gith layed eggs. Mind if I ask where this information came from (if it is official)? I'm not well-versed in Planescape lore, having played mostly 3 & 3.5E.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-19-07, 10:12 AM	2e's Guide to the Astral and its chapter covering githyanki society and history. It might have also appeared in their monster writeup in the PSMC. In 3e it may have also appeared in at some point in Dungeon magazine's Incursion adventures, or its web enhancements. Being at work at the moment I don't have them to easily reference or else I'd say for certain.
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 10:33 AM	I didn't even know that gith layed eggs. Githyanki do, according to A Guide to the Astral Plane and Dungeon #100 (the Incursion adventure). We don't know for sure if githzerai do. The two races have been separated from one another for quite a while. Yes, everything Shemmy said was official.
Steely_Dan 07-19-07, 10:36 AM	There are also said to be such places constructed on the surface of specific godisles in the Astral which are the corpses of dead gods of time, and whose gravity wells negate the timeless trait of the Astral at large. I didn't know about that. Interesting – thanks.
420 07-19-07, 12:17 PM	I believe Githyanki are also able to somehow avoid or prevent time "catching up" with them when they leave the Astral. -420
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 12:19 PM	I believe Githyanki are also able to somehow avoid or prevent time "catching up" with them when they leave the Astral. -420 There's a spell that allows them to prevent it temporarily.
Eye of the Beholder 07-19-07, 01:14 PM	There's a spell that allows them to prevent it temporarily. Do we know the 'time catches up' aspect of the Astral plane still exists in 3rd Ed? It's not mentioned in the 3.5 DMG or Manual of the Planes as I recall (unlike the plane of Faerie, which explicitly is), nor could I find it in the Incursion issue of Dungeon. I know there's lots of 2E Planescape stuff never outright confirmed or denied in 3E, but I'm wondering if this is a deliberate change rather than an accidental omission. I always thought it was a bit of a cop-out saying 'time catches up with you when you leave, except for the githyanki, because of... magic...'
Shemeska the Marauder 07-19-07, 02:24 PM	Do we know the 'time catches up' aspect of the Astral plane still exists in 3rd Ed? It's not mentioned in the 3.5 DMG or Manual of the Planes as I recall (unlike the plane of Faerie, which explicitly is), nor could I find it in the Incursion issue of Dungeon. Yes, it still catches up. The wording was poor in the MotP, but the 3.5 DMG specifically mentions retroactive aging under the definition of the timeless trait that planes such as the Astral possess. The danger of a timeless plane is that once one leave such a plane where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging do occur retroactively.
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 02:40 PM	I always thought it was a bit of a cop-out saying 'time catches up with you when you leave, except for the githyanki, because of... magic...' It catches up for githyanki, too, if they stay beyond the duration of the spell, or if they don't have the spell available. And non-githyanki can use the spell just as easily as githyanki can, assuming they've learned it. So there's really no exceptionalism. Most githyanki you encounter on the Material Plane probably aren't that old, anyway. I imagine after a few centuries the Astral winds and the accumulation of memories drive them mad and they're mercifully put down by their fellows. I always looked at it as, "Most githyanki age in fits and starts as they sacrifice bits of their lives fighting their enemies on the Material Plane; they leave the Material Plane forever when they finally grow venerable, returning only rarely, with special magical protection."
Gray Richardson 07-20-07, 01:26 AM	If I recall, the average Githyanki lifespan is around 200 years. I think that is from Guide to the Astral. Or if not it is from Planewalkers Handbook. I have always thought that an interesting way for Vlaakiths to succeed the previous Vlaakith (at least those who had lived past their natural life-span) would be simply to cast gate or plane shift on her. When she shifted to another plane, time would catch up for her and she would pretty much immediately die a natural death. They probably try to plan against such a circumstance, but I bet more than a couple have died that way. Of course Lichdom is the ultimate solution to that problem. Which may explain why the current Vlaakith has lived longer than any of her predecessors.
mmxbass 07-20-07, 02:55 AM	but I realized that the meta-game reason is so that Githyanki don't become the most powerful race in the multiverse. I mean, living on the Astral Plane as they do, they'd never die of old age, so they could theoretically train for as long as they wanted and reach ridiculous levels of power and experience.I'm not sure that's really the case. Most fiends are ageless and this is certainly not the case with them. However there ARE some race/class combinations that can break the system if abused. The Elan Cancermage comes to mind.
Thegans 07-20-07, 03:21 AM	I'm not sure that's really the case. Most fiends are ageless and this is certainly not the case with them. However there ARE some race/class combinations that can break the system if abused. The Elan Cancermage comes to mind. Fiends are devoured, demoted, or sold as mercenaries by there superiors. They also have that blood war that they are constantly dieing in. Sure the Lords of the Nine, the Demon Lords and the General of Gehenna and the other protigener yuggoloth(forgot what they are called) are probably at a godly level of power since there aspects are epic level but they could all eaisly keep the other fiends from catching up like so. Asmodeous - "You're demoted." Demogorgan - "You're dinner." General of Gehenna - "You're sold to the highest bidder."
mmxbass 07-20-07, 08:36 AM	Except for the fact that there are plenty of abyssal layers that NONE of those things ever to much as touch.