Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Birmy 04-12-07, 04:52 PM	I've often thought that, clerical magic aside, the characters of the D&D game worlds had at least one distinct religious advantage over the real world: they had palpable proof that their gods were real. Even if they weren't granted divine powers, they still had tangible proof that their gods were active and openly communicative. It might just be my agnosticism showing through, but that's a pretty major luxury that we (at least as far as I'm concerned) don't have in our own lives. So this gets me thinking in game terms: what if clerical faith, like real-world faith, was not tangibly, explicitly rewarded? Say D&D clerics were just like real priests and preachers and the only proof of their god's/gods' existence was the faith of the cleric and the collective insistence of its followers? No divine intervention, and presumably paladins and extraplanar creatures would be disallowed as well. Say Carl is a cleric of Pelor, and he believes in the Sun God with all his heart, but he is not granted any powers, nor is there any proof that Pelor even exists outside of a few sacred scrolls. I think it's an interesting notion. How do you make a cleric a unique and vital character class when the very foundation of what a cleric is (and, some might say, their major purpose) is stripped away? Emphasize fighting skills? Have them replicate clerical spell effects via components and claim/know to skeptics that it's their god working through them? It opens a lot of interesting questions and conundrums, I think.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 04-12-07, 04:56 PM	But... but... but Pelor does exist!:weep:
Alpha_Moose 04-12-07, 05:12 PM	See Eberron. This is exactly what they did with that setting. None of the gods (save maybe the Silver Flame) have any physical manifestation or are involved in the world. You gain your spells by faith, not because you do what you god wants you to. There's also a lot more moral ambiguity in Eberron. An evil cleric can worship a good deity and still get spells, provided that you believe you are following your god's whim. There's a running joke on the boards there that you can worship your shoes and be granted spells.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-12-07, 05:59 PM	I'm not following your train of thought exactly. Are you thinking about a game world in which divinely inspired spells and abilities don't exist? In order to have a religiously ambiguous game, all the DM really needs to do is remove any direct divine intereventions from the game world.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-12-07, 06:25 PM	Removing direct divine intervention from a world would result in something like Ebberon. However, getting spells from raw faith would require, metaphysically, a very shaky world if belief can influence reality to such an extent. Without the spells, you'd see something far more like the real world. Being a priest is an occupation and social position, not an identity. Clerics would be Commoners, Experts, Fighters, Rogues, Wizards, or whatever.
Nathreet 04-12-07, 07:07 PM	I had an idea a long long time ago to let a player play a caster, have him believe his spells work, but actually make it all one big halucination. The magic missile burns the goblin's flesh and it screams, but in reality you need just as much damage to drop him afterwads as before. And he only saw you point you hand. Half the targets fall asleep, but their buddies managed to slap them before their next action. And yet their buddies still walk up and attack you... strange, maybe it's a feat. Of course the player would figure it out after not too long, and be P.O.'ed.
ArcTan 04-12-07, 10:03 PM	I had an idea a long long time ago to let a player play a caster, have him believe his spells work, but actually make it all one big halucination. The magic missile burns the goblin's flesh and it screams, but in reality you need just as much damage to drop him afterwads as before. And he only saw you point you hand. Half the targets fall asleep, but their buddies managed to slap them before their next action. And yet their buddies still walk up and attack you... strange, maybe it's a feat. Of course the player would figure it out after not too long, and be P.O.'ed. I would be PO'd too. This is one of the dumbest "twists" you can play on anyone, and unless done *extremely* well only serves to chop away at the trust they have for you as the DM. They won't perceive it as a "hallucination" but just as you lying to them.
koolkid_138 04-12-07, 10:05 PM	i think it kind of takes out an aspect of the game, but interesting possibilities could also open up
Eldritch_Lord 04-12-07, 10:15 PM	I don't know if this is what you're getting at, but in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, there is a feat called Priest (appropriately enough) that basically says, "You are an appointed clergy member of Religion X." It gives you benefits on social skills and the like, but otherwise it basically lets you play a character who is a cleric in social terms but a wizard- or druid- or gish-type caster in mechanical terms. That might be sort of similar to your idea; in that setting a "cleric" who worships "Pelor" could turn around and maximised empowered fireball a nonbeliever out of existance with no problem.
CCS 04-13-07, 12:19 AM	...what if clerical faith, like real-world faith, was not tangibly, explicitly rewarded? Say D&D clerics were just like real priests and preachers and the only proof of their god's/gods' existence was the faith of the cleric and the collective insistence of its followers? . Real world faith not tangibly/explicitly rewarded? Maybe. But are you SURE? Just because YOU (and many many others, my self included at times) aren't precieving it doesn't mean it's not happening. And as for proof of something greater overall? There's no end of it. All you have to do is go look outside your window. Or glance up at the sky on a clear night. Etc etc.... Because the world/universe is such an intricly complex and completely integrated system that even the most skeptical amongst us should be rejecting the notion that it's all just by random coincidance. Ask yourself this question; Wich scenario do you find more absurd? 1) That all of THIS (throws arms wide open to encompass everything!) is the result of the most perfect accident/coincidance imaginable, or 2) That all of THIS extends from the intentional efforts of some greater power/entity/force that few, if any, can precieve at all atm..... Well???
sciborg2 04-13-07, 12:54 PM	Arguments as to a divine power's existence in Real Life (tm) is outside the CoC. Not to be a jerk about it, but once things go down that path the thread gets locked. Its like a D&D-centric version of Godwin's Law;)
sooperspook 04-13-07, 10:28 PM	I agree with Sci on this one. Theres enough religious discussion going on elsewhere. As to the OP, I think we need some clarification here. Do you mean a world where there is no Divine magic? Thus no actual proof of a deities existence? It's certainly doable. I've thought of doing that myself occasionally. HOWEVER, you have to realise just how powerful Arcane magic becomes at that point. Also, what about healing? Encounters will have to be toned down or spaced further apart to allow characters to recover. If you're going to get rid of magic altogether, try 'Iron Heroes'. It's pretty good for that sort of thing. And its still d20 so you wont have to learn a new system.
CipherTheory 04-13-07, 10:56 PM	If you think about it, some of what the OP is saying is default in D&D. How often has your Pelor worshiping cleric actually seen or spoken with Pelor? How does he really know he exists? Sure you can visit him in his domain on the outer planes, but that assumes you can a) make it there (something most clerics simply can't do on their own) and b) that he'll give you an audience (something Pelor may or may not do depending on what else is going on in the multiverse at that moment). Likewise, the default rules for being a cleric allow a cleric to venerate 'concepts' in the form of domains in order to gain divine power. At one point, someone on these boards had something to the effect of "My atheism makes me stronger" written in their sig making reference to the fact that his cleric was allowed to chose any two domains due to not being restricted by a deity's selection. Add to this the fact that divine magic is really no different that arcane magic or psionics in execution. A cleric and a wizard both use focuses for their spells. A cleric says his 'faith' empowers him just as a psion is confident his powers stem from his mind. Could not a cleric just be performing arcane magic differntly? Could a wizard not emulate a cleric's spellcasting behavior with the use of a few feats? Maybe a cleric is actually psionic, but believes he is divinely inspired. You say that he can lose his powers... but maybe he only believes he does due to his subconscious knowing that he has done wrong by his deity... even if his conscious disagrees. In the world where the mind is all powerful, is not belief among the strongest influences? In a universe where the laws of physics can be told to sit down and shut up, who's to say where this power truely stems? Long story short: it's fairly easy to twist belief in D&D. The burden of proof is made nearly impossible just by the magnitude of the multiverse's workings. Ultimately you are free to believe what ever you want to believe. Whether you get spells from it, of couse, is another story ;) As to making a non-casting cleric... I think there's a PrC in Complete Divine (Evangelist... I think) that deals with this. If I remember right, the class is basically a religiously motivated bard sans spellcasting.
Zicka 04-13-07, 11:47 PM	UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........ JESUS EXISTS, THE SHROUD OF TURIN... dont make me go into details plz!
JulesCARV 04-13-07, 11:52 PM	My idea: Clerical magic, like wizardly magic, would be a discipline. If you are correctly trained as a cleric, you can cast spells. Clerics are traditionally trained by religious groups. This is not due to any inherent nature of clerical magic requiring "divine favor," or even faith. It is an artifact of the particular structure of society in a campaign setting, much like the fact that in the middle ages, monks were in charge of copying books. Someone who thought Christianity was a bunch of hooey and that St. Benedict was a fraud could, from a technical perspective, create an illuminate manuscript just as well as a pious monk, but in reality, monastaries were the centers of book-publishing. If one acquires the knowledge of how to cast spells as a cleric, and you decide to go "rogue," well, you'll still be able to cast spells, although religious authorities might not like it, and depending on the nature of your former religion and how you use your powers independently, you could face consequences from that.
Khadmus 04-14-07, 07:04 AM	UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........ JESUS EXISTS, THE SHROUD OF TURIN... dont make me go into details plz! Our faith is different, it seems. Perhaps the years of listening to "scientists" babble about such relics has eroded every trace of my material faith. However, He is still there for me (I score "cleric" on 1/2 of the tests that I take...annoying since I have 8 wisdom)
Aetheryn 04-14-07, 11:35 AM	UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........ JESUS EXISTS, THE SHROUD OF TURIN... dont make me go into details plz! You are treading on thin ice... if you want to preach religion, do it elsewhere.
polt 04-14-07, 02:07 PM	I really like the this (and the Eberron) approach much better, becuase it makes the gods much truer to what they are: gods! They are actually work like gods really work in real life, but with a mythical twist, and they aren't just high level NPCs.
Bob the Efreet 04-14-07, 02:42 PM	UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........ JESUS EXISTS, THE SHROUD OF TURIN... dont make me go into details plz! I'd offer to verify this for everyone personally, but in all my planewalking I've never been able to get any higher than the second layer of Celestia. I guess the LG is not strong in me.
Kursk 04-14-07, 02:53 PM	How do you make a cleric a unique and vital character class when the very foundation of what a cleric is (and, some might say, their major purpose) is stripped away? You'd do the same way you would for a Wizard in a campaign with no magic. Basically, it would be pointless.
polt 04-14-07, 02:54 PM	Priests still exist today, in our world, even though there's no gods.
Kursk 04-14-07, 03:01 PM	Priests still exist today, in our world, even though there's no gods. Yes, but if you were going to go fight an enemy would you take a "priest" or a Navy Seal?
polt 04-14-07, 03:02 PM	Yes, but if you were going to go fight an enemy would you take a "priest" or a Navy Seal? When the priest are able to shoot fire from his hands and make my sword holy? The f'ing priest man.
Kursk 04-14-07, 03:12 PM	When the priest are able to shoot fire from his hands and make my sword holy? The f'ing priest man. Try to follow along with the topic. From the OP. "Say Carl is a cleric of Pelor, and he believes in the Sun God with all his heart, but he is not granted any powers, nor is there any proof that Pelor even exists outside of a few sacred scrolls."
polt 04-14-07, 03:20 PM	Try to follow along with the topic. From the OP. "Say Carl is a cleric of Pelor, and he believes in the Sun God with all his heart, but he is not granted any powers, nor is there any proof that Pelor even exists outside of a few sacred scrolls." Oh okay. Then I'd probably talk to the Priest when I needed guidance, and when I had to fight I'd take the navy seal.
daggeroflath 04-14-07, 05:35 PM	You wouldn't have a cleric character class. You'd have a religious character from the fighter, mage, rogue, ranger, commoner / whatever class. As an interesting take on this, in one campaign world clerical magic came from studying the sacred scrolls. Wizards noticed odd simularities between the sacred scrolls and their spell-books, raising the question... is it just a weird form of wizard magic?
Zonhin 04-15-07, 12:10 AM	UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........ JESUS EXISTS, THE SHROUD OF TURIN... dont make me go into details plz! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_turin#Radiocarbon_dating
Birmy 04-15-07, 01:52 AM	Whoo! Okay. To clarify a few things (urm, hopefully): 1.) I didn't mean to invite a religious discussion, though I knew the possibility existed; I tried to hedge it a little bit in my OP but apparently not enough. In terms of "tangible" existence of a god, I should diferentiate between, say, " a tree" and "I pray and Jesus (or whomever) lets me turn away zombies;" it is a fantasy context, after all. 2.) I offered up the idea of "faith-generated" magic just as an idea on how to retain divine magic in the game despite the premise I put forth. I can see from subsequent posts that it's a problematic idea at best and a whole new can of worms at worst, but I offered it up only as a possibility. For me the challenge in complete non-intereference/possible non-existence would be to make the cleric interesting and viable as a class (as opposed to tacking some new abilities on indivdual characters to compensate). By removing the direct link to the deity, is it still possible to make it interesting and unique without the typical healing and support magic? Can you do it without making the "new" cleric class just some bastardized hybrid of another class?
Keenath 04-15-07, 02:21 AM	Well, the way Eberron couches it, for the unbeliever, is this: Yes, you pray and you get powers from it. That doesn't prove anything. All it means is that *something* is answering. It does not imply that what is answering is a deity, nor does it prove anything about what that deity does or does not want. Maybe it's an innate power of the universe that you can tap into. Maybe it's the power of the faith of all the believers around you. Maybe you're getting power from the celestials and infernals (which we *know* to exist). For all we know, your powers are not from a god, and you know it, and are lying to us. Alternatively, an agnostic/atheist could deny the divinity of the gods. "Yes, there is something there that is powerful, but it is not a 'god'. It's merely a powerful celestial, similar to the powerful demon-lords and such. The fact that you get power from it does not in any way justify the claim that the being is a god." This is sometimes known as the Clarke's Law argument. (Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.) That is, a sufficiently powerful non-deific being is indistinguishable from a deity from our point of view.
UnrelentingHoror 04-15-07, 02:40 AM	AN interesting thing you COULD do in a world like this is just have priest (or cleric or whatever) as a title as some people have been saying. BUT, the PC type clerics would actually be of the Archivist class from heros of horor. That way you'd have less direct manifestations of divine power like turning undead, the clerical magic would take the form of ancient teachings from mouldering scrolls handed down from past prophets or even messengers of your god. And my final point for my argument is this, It's almost always a cool moment when the ultrabad, tough-as-nails padre leads the partys and some survivng villagers out of a church surrounded by the undead for one final push and utters something to the effect of, "remember boys, hittem in the brain". Preferably in a clint eastwood type voice while cocking a crossbow.:D
awaken_D_M_golem 04-16-07, 05:47 PM	You gain your spells by faith, not because you do what you god wants you to. There's a running joke on the boards there that you can worship your shoes and be granted spells. :D You mean to tell me the Chicks who won't XXX with you(all) ( me too ) because you play D&D are goddesses because they worship their shoes ?! Part of their deific power is to cast limited wish, so they get a C minus in algebra.