Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zalakhiel 02-28-07, 05:48 PM	Anyone caring to post statistics about the Lightbearer? I have always wondered about the power that he possesses. I would consider him at least a Demigod. Any clues???
ArcTan 02-28-07, 05:53 PM	Anyone caring to post statistics about the Lightbearer? I have always wondered about the power that he possesses. I would consider him at least a Demigod. Any clues??? The role he plays in Judeo-Christian mythology is far more akin to that of an Evil-aligned Greater God in a D&D setting, right down to the supposedly having huge numbers of secret worshippers.
Melpomene 02-28-07, 05:55 PM	Real-life religious topics used to be (or still are)against CoC IIRC. Also, you should be sure to specify Lucifer (the Lightbringer) versus Satan (the fallen)
ArcTan 02-28-07, 06:00 PM	Real-life religious topics used to be (or still are)against CoC IIRC. As long as you're discussing the translation of real-life religious topics to D&D rather than the religious topics themselves (i.e. "Does God exist in the real world or not?"), I don't see the problem. There's a "Christian D&D setting" thread a few ones below this on the page. After all, D&D *contains* real-life religious topics -- people who actually call themselves worshippers of the Jade Emperor, Odin, Athena or the Father of Demons Asmodeus in real life may be rare, but they're by no means nonexistent. Also, you should be sure to specify Lucifer (the Lightbringer) versus Satan (the fallen) They may or may not be separate depending on the setting you're choosing. In a standard Christian cosmology, they're the same being.
Witch 02-28-07, 06:00 PM	Real-life religious topics used to be (or still are)against CoC IIRC. This isn't real life. It's D&D with real life influence: a big difference, as a lot of planar talk has real life influence, including official material. Statting Satan? I've considered doing it myself a while ago, but I didn't really get into it due to a lack of time. I've seen many others devils statted, but not Lucifer the Satan himself.
WitheringSolid 02-28-07, 06:22 PM	Some interesting things to remember: Satan cannot create life, only manipulate it..inderctly. Satan cannot directly read minds but can read our words and emotions like an open book. He cannot be killed by any mortal means He is the Prince of this world. He's called the Lord of the Air, He tempts, tricks, beguiles but cannot force anyone to do anything. Even people who have become possesed LET him in to begin with. Use any of these things to give you an idea, but really WHY do you want to stat Satan himself?
Ariath Ska'Vhor 02-28-07, 09:50 PM	I think the closest thing to statting Satan would be Asmodeus.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-28-07, 10:04 PM	Which Satan? I can think of three off the top of my head.
sciborg2 02-28-07, 10:11 PM	He tempts, tricks, beguiles but cannot force anyone to do anything. Even people who have become possesed LET him in to begin with. Where's this from? Edit: Sorry, I meant which Bible Verse -- or if not there -- what other source....
Return of the Flumph 03-01-07, 12:10 AM	Greater god. Either NE or LE. Make sure he has Trickery domain.
sciborg2 03-01-07, 01:40 AM	If players/DM have a problem with making Satan a deity -- for whatever reasons, he can be an archfiend. He doesn't have to grant spells directly, and instead may only be able to offer the teaching of vile-magic or fiendish aid. He could have a PrC(s), just take one from the archfiend(s) you think best represent the Satan of your campaign. Be sure to check out DiceFreak's Gates of Hell, as its great and its free...
Nathreet 03-01-07, 01:58 AM	Some interesting things to remember: Satan cannot create life, only manipulate it..inderctly. Satan cannot directly read minds but can read our words and emotions like an open book. He cannot be killed by any mortal means He is the Prince of this world. He's called the Lord of the Air, He tempts, tricks, beguiles but cannot force anyone to do anything. Even people who have become possesed LET him in to begin with. Use any of these things to give you an idea, but really WHY do you want to stat Satan himself? Where's this from? Edit: Sorry, I meant which Bible Verse -- or if not there -- what other source.... Excellent question. A little of that is Bible verses, the rest is popular tradition. "Prince of this world" is the only thing from the Bible, I think.
DragonBringerX 03-01-07, 02:26 AM	The only thing i could suggest it that he is LE lesser to greater god with the domains: Trickery, Magic, Evil, Law, *Diabolic *presented in the book of vile darkness Favored weapon the longsword (i believe he is weilding one in Paradise Lost) Also (just came to mind) from Paradise Lost, when he is smited down to "Hell" he is bound in Adamantine chains. Don't know how you could use that except maybe some artifact that could bind him again...or is currently bound in and his worrshipers are trying to free him. Like Levistus. :devil:
Rakmakallan 03-01-07, 12:57 PM	In my campaign( I''ll post a thread sometime else), Lucifer is considered to be the first,the greatest evil,even before the multiverse came to be,though not a deity.He then became the first lord of the Lower Planes. Thus, I've made some rule changes and Lucifer and his host of outsiders(called Endbringers) have the alignment: Pure Evil (not NE,LE or CE but something that surpasses them all. Pure Good, Pure Chaotic and Pure Lawful also exist, being reserved for some similar ancient outsiders).
Witch 03-01-07, 01:02 PM	Pure Evil (not NE,LE or CE but something that surpasses them all. Could you care to tell me how "pure evil" differs from neutral evil? I'd like an explanation of that.
Rakmakallan 03-01-07, 01:09 PM	Technically, it means an evil so great that the axis of Law-Chaos means nothing compared to it. Concerning in-game effects, it is used in some abilities.
Witch 03-01-07, 01:15 PM	In other words, it doesn't care about law or chaos, only about evil. Sounds a form of NE to me, really.
Rakmakallan 03-01-07, 01:30 PM	Neutral Evil means balance between Law and Chaos. Pure Evil acts as if they do not exist, the very incarnation of evil. It's a matter of quantity. In general, in my campaign world initially there were no alignments, just 4 forces omnipotent,beyond time and space that undertook responsibilities and became the world's creators.They made the Pure alignments that later lost their former value and became the alignment system as we know it. Dunno.... Works for me....
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-01-07, 02:07 PM	Neutral Evil means balance between Law and Chaos. It can, but it doesn't always.
Witch 03-01-07, 02:19 PM	Neutral Evil means balance between Law and Chaos. Ask the 'loths, who purged every trace of Law & Chaos out of their bodies. They didn't look for a balance - they're beyond it. And they're the exemplars of NE ;)
Return of the Flumph 03-01-07, 03:51 PM	The only thing i could suggest it that he is LE lesser to greater god with the domains: Trickery, Magic, Evil, Law, *Diabolic *presented in the book of vile darkness Magic domain? I suppose in some medieval European traditions Satan was associated with wizards and arcane magic, but in earlier Christianity-as well as some nonEuropean traditions-magic was more the domain of good guys. Depends on which interpretation of Satan, I guess.
Chanmanm8 03-01-07, 05:49 PM	In the D&D settings, wasn't it said in some books that lucifer the predecessor of the 9th layer, and then Asmodeous overwhelmed him and "consumed" him? Also, the DiceFreaks forums have some stats for him for their versions so you might want to check their forums. I believe they have a whole set of books called "The Gates of Hell", making all the archdevils way more powerful and godly (as in granted divine ranks), with lots of flavor filled stories and introductions. I think someone on the DiceFreaks also made a version where Lucifer is actually secretly still imprisoned some where in the depths of the 9th layer by Asmodeous, so you could perhaps use that idea as well.
Millennium 03-01-07, 06:17 PM	Also, the DiceFreaks forums have some stats for him for their versions so you might want to check their forums. I believe they have a whole set of books called "The Gates of Hell", making all the archdevils way more powerful and godly (as in granted divine ranks), with lots of flavor filled stories and introductions. I think someone on the DiceFreaks also made a version where Lucifer is actually secretly still imprisoned some where in the depths of the 9th layer by Asmodeous, so you could perhaps use that idea as well. If I recall correctly, the Dicefreaks rendering actually states that Lucifer is Asmodeus: he faked his own death and overthrow in order to reassert his dominance over the Nine Hells. The other thing about the Dicefreaks books is that it doesn't posit that the Lords of the Nine are actually deities. They're 'cosmic entities': beings that have incredible godlike powers, but don't draw their power from worshippers. Depending on your particular interpretation of Satan, this may fit him perfectly.
Witch 03-01-07, 06:32 PM	A few mistakes are being made here. Firstly, though Lucifer does exist in DF cosmology, he has not been statted as of yet. I wasn't sure, but right now, I'm fairly sure of it, as I've done a search on the forums when I saw this thread. The Dicefreaks rendering is not exactly that Lucifer is Asmodeus, though that comes close. Asmodeus is another avatar of the same being that Lucifer is an avatar of. Both have different methods. I'm not sure if it's made clear what happened to Lucifer, but I believe this is left unclear intentionally. Regarding the deities: true, in general. Asmodeus has Divine Rank, however, as opposed to all the others. Aside from that, he's also a cosmic entity.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-01-07, 07:57 PM	In the D&D settings, wasn't it said in some books that lucifer the predecessor of the 9th layer, and then Asmodeous overwhelmed him and "consumed" him? There was a dead baatezu noble known as Beherit, the ruler of Malbolge prior to Moloch, who fancied lucifer as an alternate title. He had a child lucifuge in violation of a decree against noble baatezu breeding children without express permission from the Lord of the 9th, and as a result he (and his child) were both killed. There was no lucifer in the judeochristian sense of a monolithic satan sort of figure, but yes there was an archdevil once known as lucifer as an alternate name. But he's dead. Deader than dead.
The Serge7 03-01-07, 08:26 PM	There was a dead baatezu noble known as Beherit, the ruler of Malbolge prior to Moloch, who fancied lucifer as an alternate title. He had a child lucifuge in violation of a decree against noble baatezu breeding children without express permission from the Lord of the 9th, and as a result he (and his child) were both killed. What is the source for this?
ripvanwormer 03-01-07, 09:25 PM	What is the source for this? Dragon #76 and Elminster in Hell. The former source calls him Beherit; the latter calls him Lucifer. The storyline is otherwise the same.
The Serge7 03-02-07, 08:02 AM	Dragon #76 and Elminster in Hell. The former source calls him Beherit; the latter calls him Lucifer. The storyline is otherwise the same. I'm going to have to re-read DRAGON 76 (never bothered with EiH). Thanks!
michel andre 03-02-07, 08:24 AM	Mongoose's Book of Hell gives stats for the 4 princes of hell: Belial, Leviathan, Lucifer and Satan. Hope this helps. :)
TheHarrow 03-02-07, 06:07 PM	In my shadowy campaign world, There is no satan. Look up Sammael in the Wikipedia and you will find the term 'Venom of God'. Sammael is the tool that God uses to punish those who have aroused his ire. Sammael is very much "the prince of this world"; He is the creator diety that brought the Harrow into being imc. I made him a greater diety (one of the High Gods) with access to the common BBEG domains: Evil, Law, Strength, and Darkness. His worshipers are evil dragons and fiends more then any mortal race. The concept of an evil god who created this world and a good god who rules the next is a concept key to the Cathari, also known as our buddies the Albigensians. We would know more of their dualistic theology (which my campaign is based upon) if my own church hadn't branded this interesting relegion a heresy and slaughtered most of it's members.
ElberethSilverleaf 03-02-07, 06:19 PM	I can't believe how Christians have misinterpreted the mention of Lucifer (a latin name, the Jewish bible was written in Aramaic & Greek) in Isaiah 14:12. The original is talking about a Babylonian king. The whole idea of Satan and "the devil" are Christian inventions alien to the original old testament. In my religion, (Judaism) what Christians call "Satan" is seen as an agent of God, used to test believers. Here is some info on Lucifer & Satan. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=612&letter=L http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=270&letter=S
Shemeska the Marauder 03-02-07, 06:28 PM	*shrug* The mention in Isaiah is yes, talking about a Babylonian king, but it's referencing a bit of Jewish folklore that was extant at the time, which eventually morphed into later Xtian ideas of Satan. Of course it's up for debate just how much that particular bit of folklore from the period was itself derived from or influenced by Zoarastrian legends. And on a side note, the first link at least has a rather monolithic view of Xtian theology (and a somewhat shallow understanding of it at times). You can find resources on the topic that have a more grounded historical focus and a theologically neutral perspective (the latter of which I find lacking there).
Bruunwald 03-02-07, 06:46 PM	The role he plays in Judeo-Christian mythology is far more akin to that of an Evil-aligned Greater God in a D&D setting, right down to the supposedly having huge numbers of secret worshippers. Actually, you can't state that under an umbrella term of Judeo-Christian myth, because here is one of those places where the two traditions split pretty widely. Zoroastrianism probably first suggested to the early Jews that though there was ultimately a good God in the Universe who created it and would eventually prevail, there was also a near-equal evil force fighting against Him. Though that caught on in some places, it did not ultimately influence Jewish thought and teaching to any great degree. It did stick around, though, and later influenced Christian thought a great deal. Some modern Christians promote Satan to god-like status (though never as powerful as God, nor is he ever called a god) through stories of powers, authority and abilities that would be considered god-like. Some modern Jews go along with the popular-culture notion of a separate, powerful being, but most see him as possessing only the power God grants him upon request. Orthodox and traditional Judaism teaches that Satan was not a separate being, but an aspect of God that tested the faith of His followers. So you might have modern Jews who view satan through the lens of popular culture, as a shadowy figure, an entity, at least in the metaphorical sense. But they are not taught, as some Christians are, that he has power and rules a demesne (Hell) and has followers who can create evil and supernatural events. That is a Christian thing, mainly, coming from Hellenistic and Zoroastrianist influences. Muslims mainly see Satan as a being with no power who is supremely good at convincing people to do bad things. Again, there, no sense in Orthodox teaching, that he is god-like, at all. Of course, you do have stragglers and fundamentalists, and other radicals in every group. Now, arguing over whether Lucifer and Satan are the same being, metaphorically, is probably less important, since the majority of the people who believe he is real and running amok in the world, do not know the difference and do not care. And probably would not believe there was one.
Phase 03-02-07, 06:48 PM	Mongoose's Book of Hell gives stats for the 4 princes of hell: Belial, Leviathan, Lucifer and Satan. Hope this helps. :) I dont understand where people get off thinking Lucifer and Satan are two diffrent entities Edit: Guess it is a diffrent relegion.. oh well
ripvanwormer 03-02-07, 08:04 PM	I'm going to have to re-read DRAGON 76 (never bothered with EiH). My apologies, I should have said Dragon #91. Rereading this thread, I suddenly remembered I had given the wrong attribution. The relevant pages are page 23 (detailing Kochbiel, a former general of Beherit), 30 (detail on Gargoth, who had been Beherit's closest friend and ally), and 32: "At least one consort, Batna (and her mate the archdevil Beherit, the former ruler of Malbolge), has been destroyed by Asmodeus for disobeying his restrictions on the elevation of devils." That's all there is. Elminster of Hell spoke of Batna and Lucifer instead of Batna and Beherit, and said Lucifer had been destroyed after producing a son, Lucifuge, without permission from Asmodeus. It also said, if I recall correctly, that Baalzebul had been Lucifer's greatest foe, and contended with Nergal for dominance of Malbolge after Lucifer's destruction. Needless to say, Baalzebul won and Nergal was exiled to Avernus.
Ciradin 03-04-07, 10:28 PM	Heck, I used a variant of his name (Lucien) as a name for a NG god of war. As long as you don't actually refer to him as "The Devil" people will be fine with it.
ArcTan 03-04-07, 10:57 PM	I can't believe how Christians have misinterpreted the mention of Lucifer (a latin name, the Jewish bible was written in Aramaic & Greek) in Isaiah 14:12. The original is talking about a Babylonian king. The whole idea of Satan and "the devil" are Christian inventions alien to the original old testament. In my religion, (Judaism) what Christians call "Satan" is seen as an agent of God, used to test believers. My own understanding is that this is not nearly so clear-cut, and a lot of these distinctions were actually made in medieval times by Jewish scholars consciously seeking to distance themselves from Christianity. Christianity itself gets these notions from stuff that was an entrenched part of Judaism by the time of Christ -- belief in the Fallen was a quite common thing by the Second Temple era, as you can tell by the way the Gospels casually reference the idea of demon possession, sorcery, Baalzebub the Prince of the Air, etc., all without particular explanation. It wasn't the Christians who first got the idea that the high rhetoric about the King of Babylon was in fact making an analogy between the king and a higher mythological figure -- indeed, I'm not sure how clear it is that there wasn't a mythological idea of "stars falling from Heaven" (Venus setting in the sky) representing "war in Heaven" already, which the metaphors surrounding the King of Babylon in Isaiah and the King of Tyre in Ezekiel. (Note that Ezekiel goes beyond referring to an anthropomorphized planet Venus and actually talks about a cherub being hurled from the mount of God -- there is existing mythology here that is being *used* as figurative language.)
ArcTan 03-04-07, 11:08 PM	Actually, you can't state that under an umbrella term of Judeo-Christian myth, because here is one of those places where the two traditions split pretty widely. Zoroastrianism probably first suggested to the early Jews that though there was ultimately a good God in the Universe who created it and would eventually prevail, there was also a near-equal evil force fighting against Him. Though that caught on in some places, it did not ultimately influence Jewish thought and teaching to any great degree. It did stick around, though, and later influenced Christian thought a great deal. Some modern Christians promote Satan to god-like status (though never as powerful as God, nor is he ever called a god) through stories of powers, authority and abilities that would be considered god-like. Some modern Jews go along with the popular-culture notion of a separate, powerful being, but most see him as possessing only the power God grants him upon request. Orthodox and traditional Judaism teaches that Satan was not a separate being, but an aspect of God that tested the faith of His followers. Well, using "god" as a term for Satan is seen as blasphemous, but there is a sense in which Christians see Satan and other spirits as equivalent to the polytheistic idea of gods, right down to the quotation from Jesus, where he quotes Psalm 82:6 and notes that God tells his followers that they are "gods" because they are "sons of the Most High" -- i.e. faithful humans, too, attain "godlike" status. There is a major cultural and theological shift that takes place in Judaism after the fall of Jerusalem, in which many of the competing traditions to Pharasaism are wiped out and the Pharisees become the rabbinic tradition. Among these traditions are many that are really only accessible now because Christianity was informed by them and they survived in that form (such as the teachings of the Essenes, among whom John the Baptist lived) -- and later Jewish teachings consciously emphasized the portions of Judaism that were *not* analogous to Christianity in order to maintain their separate identity. But it's a mistake to take ideas that were fully formed in the first few centuries of Christianity and clearly had Jewish antecedents -- like the idea of the Adversary -- and call them "Christian additions" to Judaism. In any case, HaSatan as an aspect of G*d is something that, in its irreverent way, D&D would probably treat as something worthy of deity stats. So you might have modern Jews who view satan through the lens of popular culture, as a shadowy figure, an entity, at least in the metaphorical sense. But they are not taught, as some Christians are, that he has power and rules a demesne (Hell) and has followers who can create evil and supernatural events. That is a Christian thing, mainly, coming from Hellenistic and Zoroastrianist influences. Muslims mainly see Satan as a being with no power who is supremely good at convincing people to do bad things. Again, there, no sense in Orthodox teaching, that he is god-like, at all. Rhetorically in modern teachings, this may be true, but Iblis/Shaitan is far from completely powerless in Muslim mythology and folklore. (Even the power to deceive through illusion is a kind of power.)
ElyasRavenwood 03-05-07, 12:06 AM	I have found some gaming statistics for Lucifer in one of my books in my library. The book is Tome of Horrors, published by Necromancer Games in 2002.Page 101 Hope this helps
ElberethSilverleaf 03-05-07, 12:24 AM	ArcTan I noticed you use the term G*d. Are you Conservative or Orthodox by any chance? Reformed here....
mage_guy 03-05-07, 02:52 PM	Drat. Ravenwood beat me to it. I was going to mention that a devil/archfiend with the name Lucifer has already been statted out in Tome of Horrors. In regards to the OP, I too am currently running a game (although we're forced to take a month off because of scheduling things) where Lu is the main BBEG. Former ruler of the lower planes...yadda yadda yadda (I realize this doesn't jive with canon about the lower planes, but rule 0 and all that). Just fyi. Cheers, RM
ArcTan 03-07-07, 04:35 PM	ArcTan I noticed you use the term G*d. Are you Conservative or Orthodox by any chance? Reformed here.... Nope, I'm a goy. I used G*d mainly to underline that it was the Jewish concept of God I was talking about there, not to express any personal religious ideas about referring to God in text (you'll notice I said "gods" and "God" without the asterisk earlier).
ElberethSilverleaf 03-10-07, 02:03 AM	Nope, I'm a goy. I used G*d mainly to underline that it was the Jewish concept of God I was talking about there, not to express any personal religious ideas about referring to God in text (you'll notice I said "gods" and "God" without the asterisk earlier). Ok just curious :) , I said gods name to a Conservative friend a few years ago and she chastized me, saying I should "know better".
sciencemile 03-10-07, 04:07 AM	The Politics of Hell is an official article displaying the stats of Satan, as well as stating that he was overthrown by Asmodeus. The updated 3.5 form is available in the Best of Dragon Collection 1. You can also confirm this evidence by listening to the #7 podcast.
Pandaemoni 03-11-07, 03:48 PM	The role he plays in Judeo-Christian mythology is far more akin to that of an Evil-aligned Greater God in a D&D setting, right down to the supposedly having huge numbers of secret worshippers. That would be "in Christian mythology." In Judaism as my rabbi explained it, he is still the faithful servant of the Lord, testing the faith of men, just as God wants him to (and so, not evil). In Christian and Islamic myth he rebelled against God.
Witch 03-11-07, 03:59 PM	That would be "in Christian mythology." In Judaism as my rabbi explained it, he is still the faithful servant of the Lord, testing the faith of men, just as God wants him to (and so, not evil). In Christian and Islamic myth he rebelled against God. So killing all Job's sons and daughters is a good act, in the D&D sense of good? I rather doubt that :)
Kain Darkwind 03-11-07, 05:52 PM	So killing all Job's wives and daughters is a good act, in the D&D sense of good? I rather doubt that :) He didn't kill them. He simply allowed evil men and environmental situations, which had been held back by the Lord previously, to take their natural toll.
Witch 03-11-07, 06:03 PM	He didn't kill them. He simply allowed evil men and environmental situations, which had been held back by the Lord previously, to take their natural toll. While your correction is ofcourse valid, the fact remains that it was Satan's goal to kill Job's innocent sons and daughters, only for the sake of testing Job. The fact that he did so indirectly makes him subtle, not good.
ArcTan 03-11-07, 06:32 PM	That would be "in Christian mythology." In Judaism as my rabbi explained it, he is still the faithful servant of the Lord, testing the faith of men, just as God wants him to (and so, not evil). In Christian and Islamic myth he rebelled against God. It's not 100% clear what he is in Jewish myth, since HaSatan does mean "The Adversary", and the idea that everything he does is with God's full sanction and that he is therefore not evil is a modern interpretation that's developed as a result of medieval Judaism trying very hard to wring out any hint of non-monotheism from Jewish dogma (to delineate very strongly the differences between Judaism and trinitarian Christianity). Nonetheless, there is a lot of good old Jewish stuff about the Fallen and whatnot. And it's not really clear that God allowing someone to do evil things to test the faith of the righteous means that those people are themselves not evil. Various enemies of the Jewish people like the Assyrians or the Egyptians, after all, are explicitly stated by the Tanakh to have had their actions mandated by God. (God hardening Pharoah's heart, God warning the ten tribes through Isaiah that he'll bring the Assyrians down on their heads (IIRC) if they don't shape up, etc.)
Kain Darkwind 03-11-07, 06:45 PM	While your correction is ofcourse valid, the fact remains that it was Satan's goal to kill Job's innocent sons and daughters, only for the sake of testing Job. The fact that he did so indirectly makes him subtle, not good. I'd place him at Lawful Neutral, honestly. He did it because it's his job. Further, in his cosmology ;), life doesn't end after death, so killing isn't the end-all be-all of Evil Action. Looking at it very generously, he simply freed those young men and women from toiling throughout their lives, and brought them into the presence of the Lord.
ElberethSilverleaf 03-11-07, 06:51 PM	Exactly, under D&D interpretation "God" of the bible is not good but more LN. The Adversary wouldn't be evil because he's just following Gods orders ... LN.
ArcTan 03-11-07, 07:02 PM	Exactly, under D&D interpretation "God" of the bible is not good but more LN. The Adversary wouldn't be evil because he's just following Gods orders ... LN. Let's not start throwing around the "Is God really good?" stuff, okay? Even D&D good-aligned deities do things that would probably send their followers into torrents of theodicy if those religions existed in real life.
Witch 03-11-07, 07:28 PM	I'd place him at Lawful Neutral, honestly. He did it because it's his job. I'll grant you that. Further, in his cosmology ;), life doesn't end after death Now, to be fair, it doesn't in D&D either :)
ElberethSilverleaf 03-11-07, 07:31 PM	Let's not start throwing around the "Is God really good?" stuff, okay? Even D&D good-aligned deities do things that would probably send their followers into torrents of theodicy if those religions existed in real life. I wasn't making a real world statement, just an opinion of how the biblical god might be aligned using d20 mechanics.
ArcTan 03-11-07, 07:42 PM	I wasn't making a real world statement, just an opinion of how the biblical god might be aligned using d20 mechanics. ...In what sense? That it'd be a good game decision or make the game interesting to say God was LN? I might go with that. But saying that you don't think God actually is the d20 definition of Good (when the d20 definition of Good is a vague one that's clearly intended to be a general common-sense idea of goodness) is a baiting statement about your view of the Bible and religion.
Kain Darkwind 03-11-07, 08:17 PM	...In what sense? That it'd be a good game decision or make the game interesting to say God was LN? I might go with that. But saying that you don't think God actually is the d20 definition of Good (when the d20 definition of Good is a vague one that's clearly intended to be a general common-sense idea of goodness) is a baiting statement about your view of the Bible and religion. I'm not so sure about that. I am a Jew myself, and when DdG came out, I did up stats for the Most High. I was torn between LG with LN tendancies or LN with LG tendancies. I serve a strict AND a loving deity according to His Word. Certainly not saying I'm right or wrong here, but just that simply suggesting G-D might not meet the criteria for DnD Good isn't a baiting statement. G-D, like most real life entities, is a little more complex than DnD alignment was intended to deal with.
ElberethSilverleaf 03-11-07, 11:49 PM	I'm a Jew as well. (Reformed) When you look at what god in the Bible, at what the Christian and Jewish gods require of their worshippers, as a whole he is nowhere close to the LG alignment as described in D&D. You can find evidence of a vengeful, jealous god throughout the old testament. In the new test. he supposedly needs his son to be a human sacrifice before he will forgive the sins of his worshippers. This is a god of goodness and love under the D&D system? I'm not stating my opinion as real world fact. Just that if you're going to use the Torah or Bible as a reference for a diety you need to look at the whole picture, not just the parts that make you comfortable. It is just very hard to equate those gods to LG, they more fit the LN alignment in the D&D framework. As previously stated real world gods and religions are more complex than in a game.
TheHarrow 03-12-07, 02:29 AM	I'm a Catholic. All this talk about satan and god on the DnD boards must be some kind of relegious roleplaying revival. Wow, i always wanted to type that. Anyway... We have to remember our Satanist brothers and sisters who take satanism as seriously as any of us take our beleifs or disbeleifs. Afterall, what is a person, if not their beleifs? Yeah i said it. I got love for all people, even the Satanists. Anton LaVey would make a good Disciple of Asmodeus. Finally, it has been said already that Lucifer has been statted up as a rather kick ass arch-devil in the Tome of Horrors by Necromancer Games. He doesn't rule Hell though, but some strange demiplane of Agony thing, IIRC. He also has his own version of the ruby rod which asmodeus weilds, but it's called the Iron Rod or some such jive. Check out The Gates of Hell, by Dicefreaks. The Serge and crew set it up so that in the end, Asmo=Luci. Peace out, witches!
ripvanwormer 03-12-07, 02:59 AM	He doesn't rule Hell though, but some strange demiplane of Agony thing, IIRC. The Necromancer Games version of Lucifer rules an outer plane called Infernus, which he set up after he left Hell. The Plane of Agony is something else entirely.
sooperspook 03-12-07, 04:20 AM	I personally would go with the new version of Asmodeous. Even his background is nearly very similar.
Zumarai 03-12-07, 11:33 AM	The relevant pages are page 23 (detailing Kochbiel, a former general of Beherit), 30 (detail on Gargoth, who had been Beherit's closest friend and ally), and 32: "At least one consort, Batna (and her mate the archdevil Beherit, the former ruler of Malbolge), has been destroyed by Asmodeus for disobeying his restrictions on the elevation of devils." That's all there is. And wasn't Astaroth detailed as an exiled Arch Devil in that issue (large human with a serpent coiled around one of his arms)? And wasn't there a chap named Alastor the Grim that was a double HD Pit Fiend who served Asmodeus?
ripvanwormer 03-12-07, 03:19 PM	And wasn't Astaroth detailed as an exiled Arch Devil in that issue (large human with a serpent coiled around one of his arms)? That's Gargoth, who is sometimes misnamed Astaroth.
ArcTan 03-12-07, 03:45 PM	I'm a Catholic. All this talk about satan and god on the DnD boards must be some kind of relegious roleplaying revival. Wow, i always wanted to type that. Anyway... We have to remember our Satanist brothers and sisters who take satanism as seriously as any of us take our beleifs or disbeleifs. Afterall, what is a person, if not their beleifs? Yeah i said it. I got love for all people, even the Satanists. Anton LaVey would make a good Disciple of Asmodeus. While I don't want to get too deeply into this, real LaVeyan Satanism strikes me as fundamentally a Chaotic religion above all -- whether it's Chaotic Good, Neutral or Evil depends on your opinion. (Most LaVeyan Satanists, I gather, would call themselves CN.)
ArcTan 03-12-07, 03:46 PM	I'm a Jew as well. (Reformed) When you look at what god in the Bible, at what the Christian and Jewish gods require of their worshippers, as a whole he is nowhere close to the LG alignment as described in D&D. You can find evidence of a vengeful, jealous god throughout the old testament. In the new test. he supposedly needs his son to be a human sacrifice before he will forgive the sins of his worshippers. This is a god of goodness and love under the D&D system? If that's how the laws of the universe work, then yes. Again, I don't want to get into a real theological argument here, but if you actually study Christian theology -- and Orthodox Jewish theology -- it is more complicated than D&D's notion of "Good" is, sure, but it's also more complicated than saying "This is unsavory and makes me uncomfortable, and therefore is *not* Good".
awaken_D_M_golem 03-12-07, 04:06 PM	;) So last night on Comedy channel , a comedienne "repeated" this from her salesman Dad : "You give a man a fish --> he knows where to come for cheap fish." ... and ... "You teach a man to fish --> you just reduced your market and increased your competition." :D but , yeah , that's Satan ...
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 01:02 AM	If that's how the laws of the universe work, then yes. Again, I don't want to get into a real theological argument here, but if you actually study Christian theology -- and Orthodox Jewish theology -- it is more complicated than D&D's notion of "Good" is, sure, but it's also more complicated than saying "This is unsavory and makes me uncomfortable, and therefore is *not* Good". I'd be glad to discuss this further through PM or email (my name with an underscore between the first "N" and the "D" at yahoo.com) with you, AT, if you'd like. I don't think such a discussion could be had on the boards without violating the CoC. I will say that what my religion considers "Good" and what DnD considers "Good" are not the same thing. And that doesn't make either definition less valid, simply incongruent.
totalpartykill 03-13-07, 01:28 AM	Satan is my copilot.
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 01:40 AM	Satan is my copilot. Really? How many ranks in Pilot does he have? I figured him to use the DnD system rather than the d20 Modern one, but I guess to each his own.
Bob the Efreet 03-13-07, 04:41 PM	Really? How many ranks in Pilot does he have? I figured him to use the DnD system rather than the d20 Modern one, but I guess to each his own. Well, it would be weird if he was in the modern world and used fantasy stats. I mean, assuming the local fantasies and mythologies have kept up with our own development, you can expect Satan, Thor, and elves to be reasonably modern.
Treymordin 03-13-07, 06:59 PM	Real-life religious topics used to be (or still are)against CoC IIRC. Also, you should be sure to specify Lucifer (the Lightbringer) versus Satan (the fallen) Actually Satan means the Accusser.
Treymordin 03-13-07, 07:02 PM	There was an attempt in 1st edition to stat him out if I remember correctly. Why not just use some of the information given in the Fiends books? Asmodeus is rather Satan like.
NobodyRemembersThis 11-23-07, 12:43 AM	There was a dead baatezu noble known as Beherit, the ruler of Malbolge prior to Moloch, who fancied lucifer as an alternate title. He had a child lucifuge in violation of a decree against noble baatezu breeding children without express permission from the Lord of the 9th, and as a result he (and his child) were both killed. There was no lucifer in the judeochristian sense of a monolithic satan sort of figure, but yes there was an archdevil once known as lucifer as an alternate name. But he's dead. Deader than dead.Correct and incorrect. There was, in 1st edition stats for both both a tri-fold god and Satan (Lucifer). When Asmodeus was cast down to the 9 hells (in serpent form), Satan/Lucifer was already there running the show. It was stated openly that Satan gave the 9 Hells to Asmodeus - Satan/Lucifer exiled itself from Hell to walk the planes as it saw fit. Asmodeus was Satan/Lucifer's chosen replacement as the lord of Hell.
DwarfPcfan 11-23-07, 11:29 AM	Ultimetly I think since many conflicting facts have equal validity. It's my belief that wether you consider GoD or Satan evil/good/neutral/etc is ultimetly a matter of how you interpret what you know or learn. In the end your opnion won't be better or worse then any other. As for using sur entities for a DnD game again alignement and stats is subjective just use what will serve your capaign better and your players are more comfortable with. For example in a Planescape game I still haven't had the chance to start I stated God as a LG rank 21 deity (Overdeity) with nearly every salient divine ability and immunity (most notably divine Splendor, Alter reality, mass life and death) Since my campaign uses Lucifer/Satan (as they are the same in my world , although strangely Shaitan/Iblis aren't, long story) as the ultimate adversary of good and the proper order of the world. He's a Neutral Evil Archfiend with equivalent powers to a intermediate deity. I did this because my players were all comfortable with the Idea and to stress in a Planescape point of view how God is the most powerful divine being in the material plane of Earth. This explains how he was able to crush the power of egypt with ease. He's simply a much more powerful god, capable of amongst other things to shut down the power of other deities that challenge him (again long story) So in the end, I say just use what you're most comfortale with and what your players will have more fun with...
PrinceOfTheVoid 11-24-07, 01:46 PM	I stated God as a LG rank 21 deity (Overdeity) with nearly every salient divine ability and immunity (most notably divine Splendor, Alter reality, mass life and death) That doesn't sound very omnipotent to me. Hell, a level 1 Kobold could kill him.
Kain_Darkwind 11-24-07, 01:58 PM	Correct and incorrect. There was, in 1st edition stats for both both a tri-fold god and Satan (Lucifer). When Asmodeus was cast down to the 9 hells (in serpent form), Satan/Lucifer was already there running the show. It was stated openly that Satan gave the 9 Hells to Asmodeus - Satan/Lucifer exiled itself from Hell to walk the planes as it saw fit. Asmodeus was Satan/Lucifer's chosen replacement as the lord of Hell. You got a source for this? I can't find anything like it.
ArcTan 11-24-07, 02:27 PM	That doesn't sound very omnipotent to me. Hell, a level 1 Kobold could kill him. Doesn't Pun-Pun have to be at least level 5 or something?
ArcTan 11-24-07, 02:28 PM	You got a source for this? I can't find anything like it. AFAIK it doesn't exist. The old Dragon article that mentions Satan only mentions him, it doesn't stat him up. He may be thinking of Necromancer's Tome of Horrors, which has d20 stats for "1e-style" monsters, including a stat block for Satan. But that's a third-party product with no connection to WotC and is not in any way D&D canon.
Thegans 11-24-07, 02:37 PM	Doesn't Pun-Pun have to be at least level 5 or something? They got it down to level 1 near the end of the topic it was just never reposted to the first post.
PrinceOfTheVoid 11-24-07, 02:39 PM	Doesn't Pun-Pun have to be at least level 5 or something? Honestly, that's a can of worms I'm not opening on this thread; check Pun-Pun versus the Mortiverse in the Epic baords for info from people far more knowledgeable than I. All I know is that it involves some Divine Mionion Template, a Candle of Invocation, and Pazuzu. Better not to ask questions, i figure.
dawnbringer 11-24-07, 02:48 PM	Lucifer (Satan) is statted up in tome of horrers 3.5. I can't post him, but needless to say, he is CR 39 with 51d8 +666 hp :P.
Kain_Darkwind 11-24-07, 03:13 PM	AFAIK it doesn't exist. The old Dragon article that mentions Satan only mentions him, it doesn't stat him up. He may be thinking of Necromancer's Tome of Horrors, which has d20 stats for "1e-style" monsters, including a stat block for Satan. But that's a third-party product with no connection to WotC and is not in any way D&D canon. I figured it might be that one; I have the Tome of Horrors. But I was honestly more curious about the Tri-fold god. That's something I never heard of prior to the thread. Lucifer (Satan) is statted up in tome of horrers 3.5. I can't post him, but needless to say, he is CR 39 with 51d8 +666 hp Unfortunately, he isn't actually CR 39. He could never back that level of CR up with his given stats. 30 at best. Similar to how their Orcus is 'CR 45', but in actuality weaker than the BoVD version that was listed CR 28. As for the 666 trick, if you advance a pit fiend to Huge sized (37HD) and max his hit points, you also get 666, but for total hit points, not bonus. Dicefreaks used that for their Nessian Pit Fiend.
zopzop 11-24-07, 09:03 PM	That's Gargoth, who is sometimes misnamed Astaroth. Any information on him? Gargauth I mean. There's a Wikipedia entry on him but I don't know how accurate it is. Know of any pics of him? He sounds so bad---! But I was honestly more curious about the Tri-fold god. Don't know about the 1e style Triune God, but there's a 3.0 edition elf Triune Goddess Angharradh (she's a greater god second only to Corellon in the elf pantheon). Her holy symbol is awesome.
The Ubbergeek 11-25-07, 01:14 PM	I'd like Satan... Diablo-style. On a related note, how did the Diablo 1 and 2 material treated by the Big Ones, those Grand Evils? Gods, archdemons? Could Diablo and his brothers worshipped by dark, mad clerics?
sciborg3 11-26-07, 02:45 AM	i like this version which still frightens me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3z2Pm7Iwg
dawnbringer 11-26-07, 06:04 AM	Unfortunately, he isn't actually CR 39. He could never back that level of CR up with his given stats. 30 at best. Similar to how their Orcus is 'CR 45', but in actuality weaker than the BoVD version that was listed CR 28. Have you read the statted up version of lucifer in tome of horrors 3.5? He very well backs up that level of CR.
Kain_Darkwind 11-26-07, 10:45 AM	Have you read the statted up version of lucifer in tome of horrors 3.5? He very well backs up that level of CR. What version did you think I was talking about? Yes, Lucifer from Tome of Horrors. That's the one. And no, he doesn't. 39th level PCs wouldn't even get a speedbump out of him.
Dam_Eht-karp 11-26-07, 10:48 AM	I'm a Catholic. All this talk about satan and god on the DnD boards must be some kind of relegious roleplaying revival. Wow, i always wanted to type that. Anyway... We have to remember our Satanist brothers and sisters who take satanism as seriously as any of us take our beleifs or disbeleifs. Afterall, what is a person, if not their beleifs? Yeah i said it. I got love for all people, even the Satanists. Anton LaVey would make a good Disciple of Asmodeus. :OMG! Can I buy you a drink? no, seriously, where do you live, how old are you and what's the legal drinking age there? I need to go over there and buy you a frakking drink. That was very well put, especially by a member of one of the groups LaVey essentially wrote the satanic bible just to rant about....
wordserpent 11-27-07, 05:23 PM	Has anyone ever tried to stat Yahweh?
Witch 11-27-07, 05:30 PM	I once started statting him up as a deity stat block, but quickly ended due to a lot of difficulties. For one, I felt obliged to make several versions depending on what conception of him is used; for another, even then, faith just seems to be too widely diverging to do him any justice.
Kain_Darkwind 11-27-07, 05:33 PM	Has anyone ever tried to stat Yahweh? I did stats for YHWH as a DvR 20 deity when Deities and Demigods first came out. Mainly an exercise to see what the top end of deific power was than to accurately stat the Lord of Hosts. If He is truly omnipotent, stats by their very definition place an upward limit on one's power and could not be created for Him.
Witch 11-27-07, 05:36 PM	I did stats for YHWH as a DvR 20 deity when Deities and Demigods first came out. Mainly an exercise to see what the top end of deific power was than to accurately stat the Lord of Hosts. If He is truly omnipotent, stats by their very definition place an upward limit on one's power and could not be created for Him. Divine Rank: Infinite Divine Weakness: Iron Chariots ;)
NobodyRemembersThis 11-28-07, 02:09 AM	AFAIK it doesn't exist. The old Dragon article that mentions Satan only mentions him, it doesn't stat him up. He may be thinking of Necromancer's Tome of Horrors, which has d20 stats for "1e-style" monsters, including a stat block for Satan. But that's a third-party product with no connection to WotC and is not in any way D&D canon.Incorrect. Dragon issue #28. Here is a link that has an exact reprint of the article (last post, by Dragon Fire) >LOOKY LOOKY< (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11539&highlight=&sid=8036e2c48daf2184c64c00682df722cc) Could have sworn I'd seen it stated elsewhere with 666 hp and a tri-fold deity with 777 hp.....an ex-friend of mine had the book. I thought it was Deities and Demigods from 1e........I haven't actually looked the book over in almost a decade, so I don't remember.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 11-28-07, 02:12 PM	I have plans to use Satan in my campaign and here's what I came up with. I been thinking to myself how to stat these creatures as well as describing their background. That's when I came up with an idea. The ancient baatorians were created by Satan the first ruler of hell (before asmodeus shattered it into 9 layers.) I've also decided that the ancient baatorians will be more than just 1 type of devil and they'll have many types. For example: ancient baatorian1: similar to maleficarim and wield pitch forks (tridents) ancient baatorian2: red upper torso of a diabolic human; lower black scaled torso of a serpent. and so on. 1)what are your thoughts on this? 2)any suggestions on other types of ancient baatorians? note: Satan and all his minions are trapped below Nessus in an alternate dimension which asmodeus has imprisoned him in. Satan is no doubt itching to find away out and reclaim his throne.