Say a deity undergoes a big alignment shift: do clerics follow him or switch deities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Say a deity undergoes a big alignment shift: do clerics follow him or switch deities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
04-25-07, 03:44 PM This is the opposite scenario to the usual "suppose a cleric of a good god becomes corrupt and evil" scenario. Say the Heironeous and his church are basically lawful good. Then, for some reason, Heironeous undergoes a big alignment/portfolio shift, and becomes the neutral evil deity of misogyny (or... whatever. Give him whatever portfolio you want).

What do his clerics do?

Do they typically say "we're pledged to follow Heironeous. If Heironeous has changed alignment, so shall we, and we shall continue to serve him?"

Do they say "Heironeous has forsaken us! We can only hope that St. Cuthbert or Mayaheine or Pelor or someone will accept our worship instead?"

Something else? Half go one way, half go the other?
elondir
04-25-07, 03:51 PM Some would follow; many would feel betrayed and follow someone else, some might forsake religion altogether.
Naderion
04-25-07, 03:52 PM It depends much on the alignment of both the deity and the clerics and also the deities portfolios. In your example, some Lawful Neutral Clerics may shift to evil and keep with him, but most clerics won't turn into the opposite of what they have ever been that fast, even for their god.
sciborg2
04-25-07, 04:46 PM I think it would depend on why the god changed alignment. If his lover was sacrificed by the other good deities for the greater good, then he and his followers might mount a crusade.

I doubt any good aligned god is going to switch to evil without some sense of justification and a belief that they are either the true Good or that they were naive before.
Calmar
04-25-07, 05:31 PM I think it would be also important how fast the change occurs. If its over centuries, or longer, then the alignmentshift in the clergy could happen rather smooth, while a sudden change certainly would cause much confusion and deep dissappointment among the followers.
Deathmond
04-25-07, 05:39 PM Well, is there any way the clerics would really know short of being told? Couldn't the god just keep his change of portfolio a secret and keep giving his worshipers spells? Assuming the god wanted to keep them, that seems like something a reasonably smart god would do.
ArcTan
04-25-07, 06:17 PM Well, is there any way the clerics would really know short of being told? Couldn't the god just keep his change of portfolio a secret and keep giving his worshipers spells? Assuming the god wanted to keep them, that seems like something a reasonably smart god would do.

I would say this was a silly idea if not for the fact that this is exactly what they did with Mystra and Midnight in the Time of Troubles. *sigh*
JulesCARV
04-25-07, 06:25 PM Well, is there any way the clerics would really know short of being told? Couldn't the god just keep his change of portfolio a secret and keep giving his worshipers spells? Assuming the god wanted to keep them, that seems like something a reasonably smart god would do.

Well, for one thing, clerics only receive divine spellcasting from a deity if they're within one step of the deity's alignment (and aren't true neutral unless the deity is). For another thing, they wouldn't be able to cast spells with certain alignment descriptors, and would be able to cast spells with new alignment descriptors that they couldn't cast before, etc.
Calmar
04-26-07, 04:08 PM It is unlogical that such an event could happen unnoticed. When a religion developes, it is a thing between the followers and the god.
Bob the Efreet
04-26-07, 05:06 PM I would say this was a silly idea if not for the fact that this is exactly what they did with Mystra and Midnight in the Time of Troubles. *sigh*

I don't think that "it happened in FR" is a convincing argument that an idea isn't silly.
Daydreamer
04-26-07, 05:11 PM depends why. If it was for a good reason that the whole world was effected by, i think many would follow, especially if it was a small change.
Some would change dieities, some would abandon religion.

But if it was something that made sense, it might make sense to alot of followers too.
The Ubbergeek
04-26-07, 05:48 PM I don't think that "it happened in FR" is a convincing argument that an idea isn't silly.

It's not setting more illogical and silly as any other, really. -_-;
The_Shaman
04-26-07, 07:23 PM I think that FR treated it okay. Some ideas are:

- it depends on the deity: if the deity was or is very alignment-based (i.e. Hieroneous) and it changes alignment, the old priests might be in trouble. If, like in the FR case, it is a deity of something, and that something is not so alignment-related, it could be okay
- it depends on the priest in general. Some may be unhappy with the deity's change and decide to leave, but imo most would stay in. Alignment should not be metagamed, clerics only know what their deity wants, not what its stat block is. If the requests seem to suggest an unusual disposition, some may leave, some may grit their teeth, and some might think it a test of their loyalty and embrace the change.
yrogerg
04-26-07, 10:26 PM I think that FR treated it okay. Some ideas are:

- it depends on the deity: if the deity was or is very alignment-based (i.e. Hieroneous) and it changes alignment, the old priests might be in trouble. If, like in the FR case, it is a deity of something, and that something is not so alignment-related, it could be okay
- it depends on the priest in general. Some may be unhappy with the deity's change and decide to leave, but imo most would stay in. Alignment should not be metagamed, clerics only know what their deity wants, not what its stat block is. If the requests seem to suggest an unusual disposition, some may leave, some may grit their teeth, and some might think it a test of their loyalty and embrace the change.

I think there's a level that you're missing, though: the level of the religion itself. The deity has ultimate say of the nature of the religion itself, and clerics *would* either shift along with the religion, or leave. If the change happens gradually enough, and the clerics sufficiently able to rationalize the shift ("Our god is just allowing us to use the tools we need to fight the forces of Evil"), it may be quite seamless.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 04-25-07, 03:44 PM	This is the opposite scenario to the usual "suppose a cleric of a good god becomes corrupt and evil" scenario. Say the Heironeous and his church are basically lawful good. Then, for some reason, Heironeous undergoes a big alignment/portfolio shift, and becomes the neutral evil deity of misogyny (or... whatever. Give him whatever portfolio you want). What do his clerics do? Do they typically say "we're pledged to follow Heironeous. If Heironeous has changed alignment, so shall we, and we shall continue to serve him?" Do they say "Heironeous has forsaken us! We can only hope that St. Cuthbert or Mayaheine or Pelor or someone will accept our worship instead?" Something else? Half go one way, half go the other?
elondir 04-25-07, 03:51 PM	Some would follow; many would feel betrayed and follow someone else, some might forsake religion altogether.
Naderion 04-25-07, 03:52 PM	It depends much on the alignment of both the deity and the clerics and also the deities portfolios. In your example, some Lawful Neutral Clerics may shift to evil and keep with him, but most clerics won't turn into the opposite of what they have ever been that fast, even for their god.
sciborg2 04-25-07, 04:46 PM	I think it would depend on why the god changed alignment. If his lover was sacrificed by the other good deities for the greater good, then he and his followers might mount a crusade. I doubt any good aligned god is going to switch to evil without some sense of justification and a belief that they are either the true Good or that they were naive before.
Calmar 04-25-07, 05:31 PM	I think it would be also important how fast the change occurs. If its over centuries, or longer, then the alignmentshift in the clergy could happen rather smooth, while a sudden change certainly would cause much confusion and deep dissappointment among the followers.
Deathmond 04-25-07, 05:39 PM	Well, is there any way the clerics would really know short of being told? Couldn't the god just keep his change of portfolio a secret and keep giving his worshipers spells? Assuming the god wanted to keep them, that seems like something a reasonably smart god would do.
ArcTan 04-25-07, 06:17 PM	Well, is there any way the clerics would really know short of being told? Couldn't the god just keep his change of portfolio a secret and keep giving his worshipers spells? Assuming the god wanted to keep them, that seems like something a reasonably smart god would do. I would say this was a silly idea if not for the fact that this is exactly what they did with Mystra and Midnight in the Time of Troubles. sigh
JulesCARV 04-25-07, 06:25 PM	Well, is there any way the clerics would really know short of being told? Couldn't the god just keep his change of portfolio a secret and keep giving his worshipers spells? Assuming the god wanted to keep them, that seems like something a reasonably smart god would do. Well, for one thing, clerics only receive divine spellcasting from a deity if they're within one step of the deity's alignment (and aren't true neutral unless the deity is). For another thing, they wouldn't be able to cast spells with certain alignment descriptors, and would be able to cast spells with new alignment descriptors that they couldn't cast before, etc.
Calmar 04-26-07, 04:08 PM	It is unlogical that such an event could happen unnoticed. When a religion developes, it is a thing between the followers and the god.
Bob the Efreet 04-26-07, 05:06 PM	I would say this was a silly idea if not for the fact that this is exactly what they did with Mystra and Midnight in the Time of Troubles. sigh I don't think that "it happened in FR" is a convincing argument that an idea isn't silly.
Daydreamer 04-26-07, 05:11 PM	depends why. If it was for a good reason that the whole world was effected by, i think many would follow, especially if it was a small change. Some would change dieities, some would abandon religion. But if it was something that made sense, it might make sense to alot of followers too.
The Ubbergeek 04-26-07, 05:48 PM	I don't think that "it happened in FR" is a convincing argument that an idea isn't silly. It's not setting more illogical and silly as any other, really. -_-;
The_Shaman 04-26-07, 07:23 PM	I think that FR treated it okay. Some ideas are: - it depends on the deity: if the deity was or is very alignment-based (i.e. Hieroneous) and it changes alignment, the old priests might be in trouble. If, like in the FR case, it is a deity of something, and that something is not so alignment-related, it could be okay - it depends on the priest in general. Some may be unhappy with the deity's change and decide to leave, but imo most would stay in. Alignment should not be metagamed, clerics only know what their deity wants, not what its stat block is. If the requests seem to suggest an unusual disposition, some may leave, some may grit their teeth, and some might think it a test of their loyalty and embrace the change.
yrogerg 04-26-07, 10:26 PM	I think that FR treated it okay. Some ideas are: - it depends on the deity: if the deity was or is very alignment-based (i.e. Hieroneous) and it changes alignment, the old priests might be in trouble. If, like in the FR case, it is a deity of something, and that something is not so alignment-related, it could be okay - it depends on the priest in general. Some may be unhappy with the deity's change and decide to leave, but imo most would stay in. Alignment should not be metagamed, clerics only know what their deity wants, not what its stat block is. If the requests seem to suggest an unusual disposition, some may leave, some may grit their teeth, and some might think it a test of their loyalty and embrace the change. I think there's a level that you're missing, though: the level of the religion itself. The deity has ultimate say of the nature of the religion itself, and clerics would either shift along with the religion, or leave. If the change happens gradually enough, and the clerics sufficiently able to rationalize the shift ("Our god is just allowing us to use the tools we need to fight the forces of Evil"), it may be quite seamless.