Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vierax 08-03-07, 03:49 PM	hey peoples. i was wondering is there a sigil in the forgotten realms setting, and if there is, are Ao's powers also suppresed? thanks.:D
ArcTan 08-03-07, 04:10 PM	I'm not sure if Sigil exists in the new Forgotten Realms cosmology, but since the FR cosmology mainly consists of rearranging things rather than changing them, it's not a big deal to say it does. I don't think it's ever been *proven* what happens when an Overpower tries to enter Sigil, but as far as anyone actually knows, no Power or Overpower ever has. Ao trying to enter Sigil is something that, in a game I was DMing, simply wouldn't happen, just as the Lady wouldn't leave Sigil (whether or not she's capable of doing so, which is, again, a mystery).
vierax 08-03-07, 04:24 PM	thanks. maybe that would be a campaign ender. have Ao try to go in or the lady go out and then the whole cosmalogy goes piff. i dont think that'll happen though.
ArcTan 08-03-07, 04:42 PM	Basically, Ao's powers are intentionally left undefined, except that he seems to have the ultimate sovereign authority over the world of Abeir-Toril and its crystal sphere, and lacks any interest in anything outside of it. The Lady's powers are also intentionally left undefined, except that she seems to have the ultimate sovereign authority over the City of Sigil and who can enter and leave it, and lacks any interest in anything outside of it. I would say that, aside from that, the general rule that deities cannot enter Sigil and that the last deity who tried was implied to be of multiple-world-crossing Greater Deity power -- and was instantly destroyed for trying -- implies that this rule is quite powerful, and I don't think it would be incongruous to say it applies even to DR 21+ overdeities. But more importantly Ao trying to get into Sigil is just plain out of character, just as it would be out of character for the Lady to try to get into Toril. There may be actual metaphysical *laws* preventing it -- maybe Ao *can't* leave Realmspace and maybe the Lady *can't* leave Sigil -- but for the most part it's irrelevant; the essential guiding purpose of both beings means neither of them ever has a reason to leave. FWIW, though, Ao's superior, the Being of Light/Dungeon Master, probably can do anything at all that he wants, including entering Sigil, destroying the Lady and turning the entire city into a wombat. He is, after all, the Dungeon Master.
hazhar 08-03-07, 04:54 PM	There may be actual metaphysical *laws* preventing it -- maybe Ao *can't* leave Realmspace and maybe the Lady *can't* leave Sigil what if Sigil was somehow transported into Realmspace? :P
ArcTan 08-03-07, 05:20 PM	what if Sigil was somehow transported into Realmspace? :P I think that's one of those intrinsically impossible things, there. Maybe the Being of Light could do it. Or Vecna, since Vecna seems to be able to do anything.
vierax 08-03-07, 05:38 PM	a few questions. first, i take it that the "being of light" is the dungeon master, correct? second, is abeir-toril and its crystal sphere toril? and last, DR stands for "divine rating" not damage reduction, right?(just making sure)
ripvanwormer 08-03-07, 05:48 PM	a few questions. first, i take it that the "being of light" is the dungeon master, correct? I hope not! How cheesy would that be? Very cheesy, and corny too. I'd rather Ao didn't break the fourth wall. I much prefer the image of an infinite series of overdeities, each watching over those below them. So Ao has a higher-ranking overdeity that watches over the group of overgods (the guardians of the crystal spheres within the Spelljammer cosmology?) that Ao belongs to. And that overdeity has an even higher supervisor (watching over multiple cosmologies?), who has a supervisor of its own (multiple metacosmologies?), and so on forever. All of these overdeities are part of the game, and therefore you never reach the DM, who is after all a real person. When I was DMing, I for one never talked to Ao, who is of course fictional. From personal experience, then, the "being of light" is not the DM. second, is abeir-toril and its crystal sphere toril? Toril is another (shortened) name for the world of Abeir-Toril. The stars and planets within that crystal sphere are collectively called Realmspace. Toril was the name of Jeff Grubb's campaign world. When Ed Greenwood sold the rights to the Forgotten Realms to TSR, he had a name for the continent on which the campaign was based - Faerun - but he didn't have a name for the planet. Jeff Grubb, who helped write the original Forgotten Realms boxed set, suggested he call it Toril. They changed it to Abeir-Toril so that it would be the first entry in the cyclopedia, alphabetically, but it's usually just called Toril for short. The other worlds in Realmspace are not Toril, but it seems that Ao has responsibility over those worlds as well. and last, DR stands for "divine rating" not damage reduction, right? Divine Rank. I'm not sure if Sigil exists in the new Forgotten Realms cosmology It's canonical that, in 3rd edition, Sigil contains portals to Toril, and the game designers have indicated that this is the same Sigil that contains portals to Oerth and the Great Wheel cosmology. So Sigil exists outside of the FR cosmos, but is connected to it. It's not *a* Sigil - it's *the* Sigil. I don't think it's ever been *proven* what happens when an Overpower tries to enter Sigil, but as far as anyone actually knows, no Power or Overpower ever has. I'm inclined to think that Ao is merely the sentient spirit of Realmspace, and therefore cannot leave his sphere. That's just a theory though, like the theory that the Lady of Pain is the sentient spirit of Sigil.
vierax 08-03-07, 07:03 PM	I much prefer the image of an infinite series of overdeities, each watching over those below them. So Ao has a higher-ranking overdeity that watches over the group of overgods (the guardians of the crystal spheres within the Spelljammer cosmology?) that Ao belongs to. And that overdeity has an even higher supervisor (watching over multiple cosmologies?), who has a supervisor of its own (multiple metacosmologies?), and so on forever. insnt the point of Ao that he is the overlord/overgod of everything? also if there were an infinite line of overgods eventually one become corupt and then he/she could corrupt his/her underlings and BOOM the end of existance. also cosmicly speaking it would be pretty pointles to have an infinite number of overgods. one would do fine. plus infinte overgods would pretty much just be like having a bunch of normal gods who dont grant magic.
ripvanwormer 08-03-07, 07:50 PM	insnt the point of Ao that he is the overlord/overgod of everything? I don't think so. I think the point of Ao is that he's the overgod of his particular crystal sphere/cosmology. He has the power to promote and demote deities there, and he controls which interloper deities can establish faiths there and which can't. He's really more like the manager and bouncer of a nightclub than the overlord of anything. He's definitely not the "overlord of everything." There are other overgods who watch over other spheres - for example, the Highfather, who watches over Krynnspace. Greyspace (the sphere of Oerth/the World of Greyhawk) had, in one noncanonical series of novels, four beings that could be considered overgods: Madame Temperance, Master Entropy, and Proctor Chronos. There was a fourth who was approximately at their level of power, Tharizdun, but he was imprisoned. also if there were an infinite line of overgods eventually one become corupt That would be an interesting plot, wouldn't it? It'd be a truly epic adventure for the PCs to find the domain of that overgod's supervisor and get the corrupt overgod fired and replaced. Or even lead a rebellion of lower-ranked overgods against their corrupt master! Or simply lead a rebellion of the gods against the local overgod. Wow. That's a great plot hook. It might work better in a campaign where the PCs are all gods, though. See, while it's true that an overoverovergod could corrupt its inferiors, the beauty of the system is that there's always an overoveroverovergod to appeal to, and if you keep going up the rungs eventually you'll find one who isn't corrupt. That's the cool thing about infinity. So it works out. There could even be a war between corrupt overgods who abuse their positions and selfless uncorrupted ones. It could get really complex and interesting. To answer your original question, no - Ao has no power in Sigil. It's entirely outside his domain, although there are portals in Sigil that lead to his domain.
vierax 08-03-07, 08:05 PM	ok, first, your right about the corrupt overoverovergod being an interesting adventure. second, were the crap in krynspace? third, what about the normal deities? if there are so many overoveroveroveroveroveroveroveroverover dieties then what hapens to the normal deities? they become virtually powerles exept over mortals, they stop being, for themost part masters of the cosmology. fourth, also what is the point of having so many overgods when one would do fine. and last which is a bit off topic, is it possible to travel to different cosmollogies? like telleporting or whatever from farun to ebberon, or core to farun or d20modern.
ripvanwormer 08-03-07, 08:22 PM	second, were the crap in krynspace? That's the Dragonlance setting. Or, it was, since Krynn was actually removed from Krynnspace (by the greater goddess Takhisis) and placed in another sphere. What the Highfather thinks about that is unclear; apparently he wasn't able to do anything about it. third, what about the normal deities? if there are so many overoveroveroveroveroveroveroveroverover dieties then what hapens to the normal deities? they become virtually powerles exept over mortals, they stop being, for themost part masters of the cosmology. Well, first of all, not every sphere has an overdeity. Greyspace might not have one (since the novels that describe Proctor Chronos and the others were published by another company). In spheres with no overdeity, the gods have to rely on pacts and treaties made among themselves to keep whatever tenuous peace there is. Secondly, anything above the immediate overdeity is more or less irrelevant as far as the gods are concerned. They're just too high-up for them to interact with, just as overdeities are too high-up for mortals to interact with. Whatever rivalries and wars the overgods have among themselves are not the gods' concern; usually, they don't affect them one way or the other. The gods don't even know Ao has a superior (just as most mortals don't know that Ao exists), although it's canon that he does. The superiors of overgods generally have too much on their plate to exert too much control over the gods - that's not their job, anyway. Their job would be to watch over the overgods. It's like the CEO of a major company doesn't control what all the entry-level employees are doing - that's the job of all the middle-managers who report to the CEO. The exception, of course, would be in the adventure hook I mentioned above. But such things would be very rare, just as it's very rare for Ao to interact with the world in a way that mortals are aware of (as he did during the Time of Troubles). Another exception is Krynnspace, where Takhisis stole an entire planet out from under the Highgod's nose. So overdeities aren't omnipotent. If the Highfather has a superior, it wasn't able to (or didn't care to) do anything either. fourth, also what is the point of having so many overgods when one would do fine. What's the point of having so many gods when one would do fine? I mean, you don't really need Bane, Cyric, Talos, Loviatar, Shar, and Lolth; you could just have Cyric be the only evil god. Or you could just have Helm be the only god, and have both good and evil beings worship him. We don't need more than one god, but it's more fun if we have them. It's the same thing with overgods on a much vaster scale. In most campaigns, it doesn't matter if there's zero overdeities, one overdeity, or many overdeities. Overdeities don't affect the average campaign world at all - they might as well not exist, and in some worlds like Greyhawk they might not exist. In a few, in very rare circumstances, it could matter. There could be a Time of Troubles on the scale of the overdeities, where overgods are cast down to the Outer Planes to live as ordinary gods until they fix whatever went wrong. It'd be an interesting plot. It's not for everybody, but if there's any chance of getting an interesting adventure out of it, I wouldn't dismiss it. One way to look at it is to think that if there's only one overgod, that overgod could become corrupt, and then BOOM goes the cosmos. If there are other overgods to act as checks and balances, that becomes less likely. If Ao is the most powerful being anywhere, if he decided to abuse his power who could stop him? But if he's got a boss to keep him in check, and that boss has a boss to keep it in check, the cosmos becomes more stable. and last which is a bit off topic, is it possible to travel to different cosmollogies? like telleporting or whatever from farun to ebberon, or core to farun or d20modern. The official answer is that it's possible to do this through the Plane of Shadow. By traveling through Deep Shadow for 1-4 hours, a traveler can reach a place where a portal to a parallel cosmology can be opened. Another possibility is Sigil, which has portals to worlds of many different cosmologies. The World Serpent Inn does, too, as does the Infinite Staircase and a number of other paths.
vierax 08-03-07, 09:49 PM	i guess i get your point. but another question (two actually). first, where did you learn all that:confused: ? and second, in farun, ebberon, dragonlance, etc. and the other places with overgods, are there actually infinite overgods, or is that just kind of a hombrew rule thingy.
ripvanwormer 08-03-07, 11:04 PM	where did you learn all that:confused: ? Haha, years of reading D&D stuff and participating in D&D forums. On Hallowed Ground is a good source. The stuff on Takhisis' theft of Krynn is from the War of Souls trilogy of Dragonlance novels. Proctor Chronos, Madame Tolerance, and Master Entropy are from the Gord the Rogue series by Gary Gygax. They make their biggest appearance in the novel Dance of Demons. That book isn't considered official, since it's third-party, though it's set in Greyhawk. and second, in farun, ebberon, dragonlance, etc. and the other places with overgods, are there actually infinite overgods, or is that just kind of a hombrew rule thingy. We don't know how many overgods there are. Officially we only know of four: the Highgod of Krynn, Ao, "the being of light" that speaks to Ao (who some identify with the Dungeon Master), and Danu (the mother of the Celtic pantheon, who ascended beyond the status of greater deity to higher planes beyond those we know). Any other speculations I made are just that: speculations.
ripvanwormer 08-03-07, 11:39 PM	The deal with the "being of light," by the way, is this: at the end of the Avatar Trilogy, after Ao's banished all the gods from the heavens (or, anyway, their Torilian aspects) and then allowed some of them to return, a glowing being manifests before him and says, "Ao, how goes your world?" This can be interpreted in several ways. 1. The being is Ao's supervisor, checking in to collect Ao's status report. Maybe he says "You did what?" when he hears about the Avatar debacle, chastises his underling for violating the Prime Directive, and orders Ao to remove himself from mortal memory (which he begins to do in later products). "If this happens again, I'm afraid we'll no longer be able to allow you to remain in the Great Wheel cosmology. You're on thin ice, young man." 2. The being is Ao's buddy, a fellow overgod from another crystal sphere, and just wants to know how things are going for his friend. "Ao, 'sup dude?" says the overgod from Earth, or Refuge, or Faeriespace, or another sphere with ties to Realmspace. 3. The being is the Dungeon Master, who has written herself into the book so that she can chat with a fictional character. Of course, as the DM, she shouldn't have to ask - she should know how things are going without needing to actually talk to one of the NPCs in her campaign, but I suppose she can do it that way if it helps her be creative.
vierax 08-04-07, 10:03 AM	1. The being is Ao's supervisor, checking in to collect Ao's status report. Maybe he says "You did what?" when he hears about the Avatar debacle, chastises his underling for violating the Prime Directive, and orders Ao to remove himself from mortal memory (which he begins to do in later products). "If this happens again, I'm afraid we'll no longer be able to allow you to remain in the Great Wheel cosmology. You're on thin ice, young man."that sounds like his dad.:D . and again, where di you learn this? and two is the infinite overgod a homebrew thing or is it published stuff?
vierax 08-04-07, 10:05 AM	also Ao isnt in the core cosmollogy.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-04-07, 11:48 AM	also Ao isnt in the core cosmollogy. Ao was part of the Great Wheel cosmology when FR was part of it, till its recent attempts to be all special and different (and depending on who the writer is it's still part of the Great Wheel / core cosmology). But the concept of overgods is still there in 3e, spelled out formally as anything with DR 21+ (though I myself would shy away from doing anything formal about such things).
vierax 08-04-07, 12:29 PM	FR was/is part of the great wheel?
Deacon Liadon 08-04-07, 01:36 PM	Secondly, anything above the immediate overdeity is more or less irrelevant as far as the gods are concerned. They're just too high-up for them to interact with, just as overdeities are too high-up for mortals to interact with. Whatever rivalries and wars the overgods have among themselves are not the gods' concern; usually, they don't affect them one way or the other. The gods don't even know Ao has a superior (just as most mortals don't know that Ao exists), although it's canon that he does. The superiors of overgods generally have too much on their plate to exert too much control over the gods - that's not their job, anyway. Their job would be to watch over the overgods. It's like the CEO of a major company doesn't control what all the entry-level employees are doing - that's the job of all the middle-managers who report to the CEO. This explains a lot. The gods are modrons.
Dunamin 08-04-07, 01:39 PM	This explains a lot. The gods are modrons. If that was true, they'd have done something about their ant-infestation on Mechanus a long time ago. Poor cubes are losing their turf...
ripvanwormer 08-04-07, 03:33 PM	FR was/is part of the great wheel? It was, yes, for the first 20 years or so of the setting's existence. They tried to revise things when the 3e version of the setting came out to give it its own cosmology, but it hasn't really taken very well. Various game designers keep accidently/on purpose "slipping" by adding references to the Great Wheel planes in FR products, or adding references to Forgotten Realms gods and nations in core products. For example, several FR deities are given realms in the Great Wheel's Abyss in the Fiendish Codex I. It makes a lot more sense to me if Toril is just another world on the Material Plane, like Oerth and Krynn and so many others, sharing the same set of inner and outer planes, rather than needlessly duplicating the same planes over and over again (it's just pointless that the Great Wheel has the Abyss and the Forgotten Realms has a nearly identical Abyss, with a nearly identical Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt warring in it). What's the point of having so many cosmologies when one would do fine?
Sigurd van Norhusen 08-04-07, 04:29 PM	What's the point of having so many cosmologies when one would do fine? Quite simple: no giant space hamsters anymore. :(
vierax 08-04-07, 04:51 PM	It was, yes, for the first 20 years or so of the setting's existence. They tried to revise things when the 3e version of the setting came out to give it its own cosmology, but it hasn't really taken very well. Various game designers keep accidently/on purpose "slipping" by adding references to the Great Wheel planes in FR products, or adding references to Forgotten Realms gods and nations in core products. For example, several FR deities are given realms in the Great Wheel's Abyss in the Fiendish Codex I. It makes a lot more sense to me if Toril is just another world on the Material Plane, like Oerth and Krynn and so many others, sharing the same set of inner and outer planes, rather than needlessly duplicating the same planes over and over again (it's just pointless that the Great Wheel has the Abyss and the Forgotten Realms has a nearly identical Abyss, with a nearly identical Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt warring in it). What's the point of having so many cosmologies when one would do fine? thats the same question i aske dyou about overdeities:D . and also you would need 3 evil gods not just cyric. LE, CE, NE. and again, is the chain of overgods published stuff or a houserule?
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-04-07, 05:46 PM	thats the same question i aske dyou about overdeities:D . and also you would need 3 evil gods not just cyric. LE, CE, NE. and again, is the chain of overgods published stuff or a houserule? I've never seen it stated anywhere. I think Ripvanwormer thought it up. Quite simple: no giant space hamsters anymore. Wildspace is part of the Material Plane, I think. So Spelljammer fans can still get their fill with only one set of planes.
Sigurd van Norhusen 08-04-07, 05:53 PM	thats the same question i aske dyou about overdeities:D . and also you would need 3 evil gods not just cyric. LE, CE, NE. and again, is the chain of overgods published stuff or a houserule? Considering that he stated it already that he thought that up, I find your lack of understanding disturbing. :P Wildspace is part of the Material Plane, I think. So Spelljammer fans can still get their fill with only one set of planes. I dunno. There are bits and pieces left of it, but not much. And no giant space hamsters that I am aware of. Especially none with viking helmets. I know that the Realms designers leave that question open - but if there is no wildspace as previously written out anymore - AO either has power over the entire Material Plane, or only over Faerun (one half of a continent, right?).
vierax 08-04-07, 05:58 PM	Considering that he stated it already that he thought that up, I find your lack of understanding disturbing. :P dont be surprized. i took an IQ test once and the makers wouldnt send me my results. i think they were being kind.
ripvanwormer 08-04-07, 06:17 PM	thats the same question i aske dyou about overdeities. and also you would need 3 evil gods not just cyric. LE, CE, NE. That's right; I did that deliberately. I asked the same question because both questions have the same answer, which is that it comes down to personal preference. You don't need more than one evil god. You could simply say that evil beings of all three alignments worship Cyric. Or that beings of all nine alignments worship Helm (or Cyric, or Oghma, or Mystra, or whoever you choose). But most people don't find that very satisfying. Likewise, some people might find only one cosmology unsatisfying. I'm not one of those people. and again, is the chain of overgods published stuff or a houserule? Ao's "boss," the "being of light," has appeared in published stuff. The idea that there might be further entities beyond that is only speculation. if there is no wildspace as previously written out anymore - AO either has power over the entire Material Plane, or only over Faerun (one half of a continent, right?). Since the concept of wildspace, crystal spheres, and the Phlogiston haven't been officially repudiated anywhere, I think it's safe to say they all still exist. The general rule is that previous canon remains valid until contradicted, so giant space hamsters still exist as well. Somewhere. Ao has power only over Realmspace, the gods worshiped there, and the Realms aspects of multispheric deities worshiped there. He has power throughout the crystal sphere, but his authority stops at the edge of it. Beyond the sphere of Realmspace is the phlogiston, and beyond that are Greyspace and Krynnspace. In 3e, each of these spheres has its own cosmology (Krynnspace might not, since Krynn is no longer in it), but I think it's fair to say that it's still canonical that you can travel between them on hamster-powered spacecraft, steering your way through the rainbow-colored Flow. Toril alone has at least four cosmologies on it: the Faerunian cosmos, the Zakharan one, the Maztican one, and the Kara-Turan Spirit World. So we know that just because two worlds have different cosmologies attached to them doesn't mean they aren't part of the same plane.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-04-07, 06:18 PM	I dunno. There are bits and pieces left of it, but not much. And no giant space hamsters that I am aware of. Especially none with viking helmets. I know that the Realms designers leave that question open - but if there is no wildspace as previously written out anymore - AO either has power over the entire Material Plane, or only over Faerun (one half of a continent, right?). Where'd they say that Wildspace no longer exists? (Not that I'd listen). Ao's role as the supreme authority of the Realms only really makes sense if the crystal sphere of Realmspace exists. He certainly doesn't have jurisdiction over Greyhawk (Greyspace) or Eberron. Also; the hamsters are omnipresent. Where there are gnomes, there shall be giant space hamsters; fire-breathing, half-dragon, half-troll, half-fiend, half-vampire, spiny, gelatinous, insectile, celestial, four-eyed giant space hamsters complete with viking helmets.
vierax 08-04-07, 07:39 PM	were did you guys learn all this? also is all this from 3.5 or from an erlier edition?
Sigurd van Norhusen 08-04-07, 07:40 PM	No, there was no official word. In fact, as far as I can see there was a deliberate silence on this issue (box of pandora syndrome I would say). And with 3E, it's kinda difficult to imagine Wildspace and the other crystal spheres, now that every continent and their grandmother has an own cosmology. I don't even want to know how that's supposed to work - you hop over to Herospace and the 2E Great Wheel is the cosmology. Then you hop to Greyspace and the 3E Great Wheel is the cosmology. Then back to Realmspace and - what kind of cosmology would the rest of Realmspace actually have? It cannot really be Faerun's, as this does not even extend to the whole planet. ... Iokay, time for bed. :P
ripvanwormer 08-04-07, 09:05 PM	were did you guys learn all this? also is all this from 3.5 or from an erlier edition? It's from Spelljammer, which was a 2.0 campaign setting. Basically, it was D&D in outer space.
ArcTan 08-05-07, 12:09 AM	I hope not! How cheesy would that be? Very cheesy, and corny too. I'd rather Ao didn't break the fourth wall. Bah. The breaking-the-fourth-wall was my favorite part of the Avatar books. I mean, in reality, Ao's superior will never ever have an explanation (I hope), so making jokes about him being the DM are as appropriate as anything else.
ArcTan 08-05-07, 12:11 AM	that sounds like his dad.:D . and again, where di you learn this? and two is the infinite overgod a homebrew thing or is it published stuff? The infinite layers-upon-layers of Overgods is ripvanwormer's thing. No official explanation has ever been given for Ao having a superior, although we know he does have one (or, at least, he did in 2e).
ArcTan 08-05-07, 12:14 AM	Since the concept of wildspace, crystal spheres, and the Phlogiston haven't been officially repudiated anywhere, I think it's safe to say they all still exist. The general rule is that previous canon remains valid until contradicted, so giant space hamsters still exist as well. Somewhere. ...The fact that if spelljamming existed and were as common as the Spelljammer products implied, it *would* have had some major impact on the mindset and lifestyle of ordinary Faerunians, however minute, and yet the official products make no mention of it (no one comes bearing news of the latest trade ship arriving from Greyspace and the wondrous things they bring, no one tells whispered stories of that time the Scro penetrated the Realmspace sphere, bla bla bla) means I frankly find most established canon to be inconsistent with Spelljammer. When I imagine Spelljammer I imagine it as the "future" of these D&D settings -- yeah, it *someday* will happen that the spacelanes teem with spelljamming ships bringing news and trade and war between the established campaign worlds, but it's something that's going to happen in a few centuries or a millennium, not something that is happening right now.
ripvanwormer 08-05-07, 09:08 AM	...The fact that if spelljamming existed and were as common as the Spelljammer products implied In the Spelljammer products, the existence of spelljamming is pretty much completely unknown to anyone except those who actually live in space (and one government in Kara-Tur, and a few very aware sages like Elminster). Ordinary Faerunians are disparaged by spelljammers as "groundlings" and are entirely ignorant of what's going on in their skies. It's kind of weird that only people who live on asteroids and the like seem to be part of spelljamming society, at least in Greyspace, Krynnspace, and Realmspace. It might have made for a better setting if there were more planets entirely revolutionized by spelljamming technology, so you could have worlds like Coruscant in Star Wars - something that actually did feel like "D&D in the future." But it was Jeff Grubb's intention to create a setting that was compatible with standard D&D in every way you imply it was not, and so he created that dichotomy between 'jammers and groundlings. Perhaps it's just that Toril is a backwater that the mercanes are deliberately avoiding in some way. Maybe they're frightened of it, or they simply don't think it's progressed to a sufficient level. Spelljammer doesn't, as written, feel like the "future" of any D&D settings. Technology is still at the same Renaissance level that the Realms are in. And spelljammers haven't affected, or even revealed their existence to, any the standard campaign settings.