Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 03-12-07, 11:36 PM	Hey, I know it sounds impossible, but does anyone have any tips for destroying Vecna pre-epic level? We have a wizard, a bard, a paladin, a monk, and a fighter. I'm sure you guys can think up something. Thanks ahead of time.
betrayor 03-12-07, 11:43 PM	You could try to find a new Dm. Seriously now if you had a cleric he could ask for his god's help.
Angelflesh 03-13-07, 01:06 AM	Yes, but even then, a deity knows there could be grave consequences of killing another deity, i doubt a god would do it.
bluemage55 03-13-07, 01:10 AM	It's not happening, unless your DM wants you to. It also shouldn't happen unless your DM is a sponge.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-13-07, 01:19 AM	He's a god, it shouldn't really happen. If the DM wants it to, he'll introduce some nifty little plot thingy that can zap Vecna's powers or what have you. Below level 20, a single pit fiend is a stretch.
Angelflesh 03-13-07, 01:19 AM	Even if you take the stats from Deities & Demigods, and calculate the CR in the manner they suggest (but warn it's probably innacurate, which it sure is), which would be 50 because Vecna is Undead thus lacking Outsider hit dice, a party of 20th level characters still couldn't do anything. Gods aren't meant to be big monsters. In theory,a deity can simply "will" you to die, to not exist even.
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 01:27 AM	Is it Vecna from the DDG? Or an avatar? Or just an Aspect of Vecna, possibly advanced? If it is the actual deity, or an avatar, or even just a non-DvR version of the regular Vecna, you are toast. There is no reasonable way that your party could beat any of those. At the very least, Vecna is a 40th/50th level character. Before the DvR. Now, if it is just an aspect, perhaps a powerful one of 25 or more HD, you stand a chance, but without knowing the actual powers it is hard to give you advice on how to do so. If it wasn't the god of secrets, I would tell you to prepare a vat of holy water which you would try to somehow trick/force him into. However, any secret plan is likely to fail against Vecna. Your best bet is to try and move the battle to the Positive Energy Plane, or Celestia. Powerful celestial help wouldn't hurt, along with positive energy spells. Unfortunately, if it is an actual DvR version of Vecna, you have no hope of controlling the battlefield, no hope of launching a secret trick plan and no realistic hope of survival. And like I said before, even if you negate those DvR advantages, you are still facing a 40th level lich spellcaster.
alex2003 03-13-07, 04:59 AM	You could slay Vecana. It's the main theme of threeadventures. One is called "Die Vecna, die!", "Vecna reborn" and "Vecna lives!". All take place before Vecna becomes a god or use a manifestation of him. Within one adventure, you just have to stop him and you get the items to do so, like the Sword of Kas and also the Hand and the Eye of Vecna. It's really long ago, I played and DM'd these adventures. They are 2nd Edition modules. Perhaps your DM has converted one of these? Vecna is ... one Moment (searching my old books)... a 20. level Wizard within these modules. So it's really possible to beat him...
celtredleg 03-13-07, 10:09 AM	Nuke him from orbit, its the only way to be sure. Now if you cant get to orbit, or you dont have a nuke, you are SOL, Vecna is going to fry you.
Deacon Liadon 03-13-07, 11:55 AM	Your best bet is to try and move the battle to the Positive Energy Plane, or Celestia. Powerful celestial help wouldn't hurt, along with positive energy spells. I'd reccommend Elysium, specifically Belierin, the third layer of Elyisum and second largest prison in the planes though you'd probably need the help of the Guardianals if you want to do this. If Vecna is proving a serious threat to the planes they'd quite possibly agree to help you out. The Last Word, if you can get your hands on it, would be enough to kill a god, though I have my suspicions Vecna may know it as well.
Khael 03-13-07, 12:12 PM	The Last Word, if you can get your hands on it, would be enough to kill a god, though I have my suspicions Vecna may know it as well. The last word... Isn't that the ultimate weapon that kills it's wielder too, god or mortal...
Deacon Liadon 03-13-07, 12:14 PM	The last word... Isn't that the ultimate weapon that kills it's wielder too, god or mortal... I believe so. Yes.
Romtos 03-13-07, 03:28 PM	The Last Word, if you can get your hands on it, would be enough to kill a god, though I have my suspicions Vecna may know it as well. What is the source of this 'weapon'?
Witch 03-13-07, 03:28 PM	The last word... Isn't that the ultimate weapon that kills it's wielder too, god or mortal... As far as I knew, gods could use it just fine.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-13-07, 04:02 PM	I'm pretty sure that having one of his relics gives you some sort of power over him and defense against his magical abilities (Please note, this is not taken from the 3E or 3.5E descriptions or stats for Vecna or his relics, it is taken from an officially published 2E adventure module titled "Die Vecna Die (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/adventures/v5748btpy7mfm)".
TheHarrow 03-13-07, 04:04 PM	Nuke him from orbit, its the only way to be sure. Now if you cant get to orbit, or you dont have a nuke, you are SOL, Vecna is going to fry you. Thats damned funny. Hey what ever happened to Kas the Bloody Handed? I liked Tovag from Ravenloft. The Burning Peaks was bad ass.
InterSilva 03-13-07, 04:13 PM	Nuke him from orbit, its the only way to be sure. Hahahaha
Deacon Liadon 03-13-07, 04:51 PM	What is the source of this 'weapon'? Dead Gods, the AD&D PS Campaign. If I recall correctly, Tenebrous' minions found it in the Ruins of Pelias on Arborea.
Bob the Efreet 03-13-07, 04:52 PM	The Last Word, if you can get your hands on it, would be enough to kill a god, though I have my suspicions Vecna may know it as well. Simply knowing the Last Word will utterly destroy any non-divine creature.
Treymordin 03-13-07, 07:04 PM	Didnt Vecna take out the majority of the Circle of 8? I highly doubt that your party, as good as they maybe, are of their caliber.
General_Ridley 03-13-07, 07:38 PM	Simply knowing the Last Word will utterly destroy any non-divine creature. didn't destroy Tenebrous, so that's not necessarily right unless he ascended before finding it and lost godhood before being restored to life.
Witch 03-13-07, 07:40 PM	didn't destroy Tenebrous, so that's not necessarily right unless he ascended before finding it and lost godhood before being restored to life. He ascended before finding it and lost godhood when he died. Though he was only partially divine, which is why it eventually destroyed him.
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 07:43 PM	You know, regardless of the circumstances, the Last Word is either an Epic spell or a Major Artifact (perhaps both) and not really something a sub-epic party could count on for battling Vecna.
Khatoblepas 03-13-07, 07:45 PM	Hire a Cleric. There is only one way to defeat Vecna, and that is to Turn him. Then you have 1d10 days to locate and destroy his phylactery (which will have less than divine protection now he's been destroyed - but it can be found!) Assuming ECL20 Assuming D&DG Vecna, Level 40 Wizard/Cleric Lich. Level 18 Venerable Half-Fey Magic-Blooded Human Cleric of Pelor/Radiant Servant. He doesn't care about anything but turning undead, so Wisdom isn't so Important. Charisma: 18 +2 (Spark) +4 (Half-Fey) +3 (Leveling Up) +3 (Venerable) +5 (Inherent) +6 (Cloak of Charisma) = 41. That gives us +20 on our check already! So far, our check is: 1d20+20+2 (synergy) Which is a minimum of 22HD. Not good. Next, feats. B: Extra Turning 1: Empower Turning 3: Improved Turning 6: Heighten Turning 9: Extend Spell 12: Persistant Spell 15: Divine Magic (Persistant Spell) - NO CLERIC should be without this! 18: xx Turning Damage: (2d6+18+20)*1.5 +1 That's a minimum of 61HD worth of Vecna. Easily enough to destroy him with a Greater Turning. However, to make sure we actually turn him, we need more help from Heighten Turning. If we reduce our cleric level by half, we can get a +9 bonus on our turning check. Leaving us with: 1d20+9 (heighten)+20 (charisma)+2 (synergy) (1d20+31) Avg 41HD 1.5*(2d6+8+20) +1 Min 46HD We have to work to roll high on our check still to destroy Vecna, but never fear, even the minimum damage will decimate him. You might want your bard to Inspire the Cleric to turn better, and you might be able to Aid Another on the Turning check with the paladin. After that, use your wizard's best scrying spells to locate the phylactery. Destroy it. There, you've just killed Vecna, because gods aren't immune to turning. =) ... of course, assuming Vecna hasn't developed an Epic spell to make himself immune to it...
Witch 03-13-07, 07:45 PM	You know, regardless of the circumstances, the Last Word is either an Epic spell or a Major Artifact (perhaps both) and not really something a sub-epic party could count on for battling Vecna. I'd write it up as an epic spell, if it weren't for the fact that a spellcraft check would be required then. I think the Last Word might be analogous to a sentient epic spell that requires no spellcraft check.
Sudnji_cas 03-13-07, 07:56 PM	does anyone have any tips for destroying Vecna pre-epic level? We have a wizard, a bard, a paladin, a monk, and a fighter. I'm sure you guys can think up something. Thanks ahead of time. Yeah, and after that why don't you kill Grummsh and Lolth. Yay, theocide:rolleye2:
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 08:00 PM	Hire a Cleric. There is only one way to defeat Vecna, and that is to Turn him. Then you have 1d10 days to locate and destroy his phylactery (which will have less than divine protection now he's been destroyed - but it can be found!) After that, use your wizard's best scrying spells to locate the phylactery. Destroy it. There, you've just killed Vecna, because gods aren't immune to turning. =) ... of course, assuming Vecna hasn't developed an Epic spell to make himself immune to it... Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking. Wow. You might as well have suggested an awesomely heightened death effect, or mind control spell.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-13-07, 08:04 PM	Yeah, and after that why don't you kill Grummsh and Lolth. Yay, theocide:rolleye2: Deicide :D
Angelflesh 03-13-07, 08:08 PM	Just to pound it in a bit more... You can't just go and attack him. You'll be faced with great challenges such as heralds, avatars, and aspects of Vecna, not to mention the allies listed in Complete divine. Also, i'm sure prominent worshipers of Vecna will catch word of your intentions and will surely attempt to stop you. I can't remember if he has any deific allies as he is always plotting to take out other deities.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-13-07, 08:09 PM	Just to pound it in a bit more... You can't just go and attack him. You'll be faced with great challenges such as heralds, avatars, and aspects of Vecna, not to mention the allies listed in Complete divine. Also, i'm sure prominent worshipers of Vecna will catch word of your intentions and will surely attempt to stop you. I can't remember if he has any deific allies as he is always plotting to take out other deities. Plus the veritable legions of cultists, followers, and lesser undead.
Khatoblepas 03-13-07, 08:13 PM	Well, at least you could use it on whatever incarnation a pre-epic party could handle. A suitable challenge could not be the REAL Vecna, in any case. Probably DvR0-2 Mini-Vecnas. =P And with a minimum of 23 turn attempts per day, those undead hoardes are toast. =)
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 08:21 PM	Well, at least you could use it on whatever incarnation a pre-epic party could handle. A suitable challenge could not be the REAL Vecna, in any case. Probably DvR0-2 Mini-Vecnas. =P And with a minimum of 23 turn attempts per day, those undead hoardes are toast. =) Except that the OP mentioned his party doesn't have a cleric, let alone a cheesed out turning machine like you've suggested. It just seems humorous that you stated "the only option you have is to turn him" when that is in fact, not an option in the slightest sense of the word, from their access to turning to Vecna's ability to be turned.
Khatoblepas 03-13-07, 08:44 PM	Okay, okay, my bad ^^;. I must have forgotten about what rank gets immunity, if at all. They were thorough, there is only one Undead God to be turned or rebuked in the entire book. I don't think Vecna could be defeated at that level, in that case.. What's he done that needs him killing, anyway?
Gadren 03-13-07, 09:26 PM	Okay, okay, my bad ^^;. I must have forgotten about what rank gets immunity, if at all. They were thorough, there is only one Undead God to be turned or rebuked in the entire book. I don't think Vecna could be defeated at that level, in that case.. What's he done that needs him killing, anyway? He plunged the world into darkness, and plans to destroy the savior child of Pelor when he comes of age. I figured "Vecna was a mortal once, there must be some way to defeat him". *shrug*
Gadren 03-13-07, 09:28 PM	Okay, okay, my bad ^^;. I must have forgotten about what rank gets immunity, if at all. They were thorough, there is only one Undead God to be turned or rebuked in the entire book. I don't think Vecna could be defeated at that level, in that case.. What's he done that needs him killing, anyway? Its easy to forget that he has immunity when they include his +4 turn resistance in his stats. If a monster was listed as having fire resistance 30, would you look to see if he was immune to fire?
davidsonshdw 03-13-07, 11:05 PM	Gadren, I have three entirely different approaches to this. 1) Get all your characters killed one by one and replace them with the most horrendous cheese you can find from the Complete Optimization boards (the ones they build and then say no one should use. Maybe use the Holy Word cheese?) Kill Vecna. 2) Find either a Divine Oracle, Ancient Loremaster, or Well-Traveled Bard (alternatively, try using your own Bard!). Ask them how to defeat Vecna. They'll probably say you need to collect a series of artifacts (probably including the hand and eye of Vecna and the Sword of Kas) that will inevitably be possessed by a series of BBEGs in the depths of their respective dungeons. (Alternatively, they'll all be hidden in Vecna's big fortress o' doom, forcing you to be all sneaky.) Gather these artifacts at a Special Location and have this Oracle/Loremaster/Bard perform some long, drawn out ritual that will inevitably be crashed by Vecna's worshippers that you will have to vanquish. After the Ritual's complete Vecna will probably be drained to somewhere around your ECL+4 or +5. Then he'll probably withdraw to his secret, ancient citadel which will result in the dungeon crawls of all dungeon crawls. Sounds like a rousing adventure! If this doesn't work, you aren't really supposed to kill Vecna, just screw with his plans. It may be wise to gather some allies as well (perhaps Pelor's clerics, seeing as how Vecna's plans are really messing with Pelor.) Oh, yeah. Whatever you do, you *may* want to tell someone unimportant and inconsequential (that will also not be in a position to tell Vecna or his allies/followers; I suggest an out of the way unimportant village, though all those may be infested with secret cults of one sort of another!) so that its no longer a secret and therefore no longer in Vecna's portfolio. 3) Convert to Vecnaism. (Wee, parenthetical references!)
Arturius1 03-13-07, 11:32 PM	Unfortunately, the wizard is rather useless for damage in the fight since Vecna has an SR of 62. Best bet is to have him buffing everyone for the duration. If the bard has Requiem, they might be useful. Otherwise, support and healing. A good fighter will have a BAB of at least +40 at level 20 (I have a fighter at level 13 and she's got +30 on primary attack) so he should start things off by drawing aggro. With enough buffs from the bard and wizard, he should be able to power attack a bit and still hit most times. The paladin will want a spell called Find the Gap. It ignores natural and man-made armor, bringing Vecna's AC to him down to 36. Also, Holy Storm; 2d6 per round without SR. Monk.....is boned. Cannon fodder. Btw, ideal weapon is +5 Holy, Bane (Undead), Magebane.
Angelflesh 03-14-07, 12:17 AM	Even if you pose a threat at all, which you don't, Vecna can teleport without error at will. So good luck trying to keep him in the fight at all. Look, you gotta face it. There are far too many loose ends to tie up in order to prepare for a fight against Vecna. Hell, Vecna could throw up an Area Divine shield and make it ignore akind of damage type that tickles his fancy. Even before you enter combat, Vecna can simply blast you with Divine Blast and take one, some, or all of you out even before you even see him.
crimsonwolf 03-14-07, 01:29 AM	give Vencna laxtive cookies and then rub posion ive along the rim of his tolite .. then replace his rash removal paste with bleach following it up as he trys to take a shower to get it all off replace his hair shampoo with nair :) which will make him the laughing stock of the gods reducing his diveine ranking slowly making it to the point you can atlest swing your swords at him :) not true the monk could try to grapple which will lead to either ... A the monk rolling a marvoul 20... or b the monk getting grappled but still vencen is lower AC becuse flat footed
ArcTan 03-14-07, 02:20 AM	He plunged the world into darkness, and plans to destroy the savior child of Pelor when he comes of age. I figured "Vecna was a mortal once, there must be some way to defeat him". *shrug* ...Not really. Formerly mortal deities aren't that different from always-deities deities, in D&D.
Romtos 03-14-07, 12:05 PM	Bluff him into non-existance! :D
Romtos 03-14-07, 12:06 PM	Dead Gods, the AD&D PS Campaign. If I recall correctly, Tenebrous' minions found it in the Ruins of Pelias on Arborea. Thanks, I'll look that up in the future. When I have this adventure. :)
Treymordin 03-14-07, 12:41 PM	He could also dominate your strongest characters, have them kill off the others, and then make them put on French maid outfits and serve him tea.:evillaugh
primemover003 03-14-07, 12:42 PM	I'd write it up as an epic spell, if it weren't for the fact that a spellcraft check would be required then. I think the Last Word might be analogous to a sentient epic spell that requires no spellcraft check. I think the Last Word is more closely replicated as a unique Salient Divine Ability. Thus it keeps it out of the hands of Mortals and only usable by creatures with some measure of Divinity.
Witch 03-14-07, 01:13 PM	I think the Last Word is more closely replicated as a unique Salient Divine Ability. Thus it keeps it out of the hands of Mortals and only usable by creatures with some measure of Divinity. But you can't gain SDAs beyond a certain number, which will likely already be reached :)
General_Ridley 03-14-07, 07:55 PM	He ascended before finding it and lost godhood when he died. Though he was only partially divine, which is why it eventually destroyed him. ah, thanks. I wasn't sure.
Voran 03-14-07, 08:31 PM	What is the source of this 'weapon'? Marriage?
e7way 03-14-07, 08:43 PM	Hire a Cleric. There is only one way to defeat Vecna, and that is to Turn him. Then you have 1d10 days to locate and destroy his phylactery (which will have less than divine protection now he's been destroyed - but it can be found!) After that, use your wizard's best scrying spells to locate the phylactery. Destroy it. There, you've just killed Vecna, because gods aren't immune to turning. =) ... of course, assuming Vecna hasn't developed an Epic spell to make himself immune to it... This wont work since vecna will already know you have hired the cleric and know your plotting to turn him. he will just devise away around it :)
Angelflesh 03-14-07, 08:52 PM	Think about it like this - 1. Form a plan. 2. Ditch the plan, Vecna will find out what it is right after you form it. 3. Form a new plan. 4. See #2. Repeat this process as necessary.
Gadren 03-14-07, 09:00 PM	Think about it like this - 1. Form a plan. 2. Ditch the plan, Vecna will find out what it is right after you form it. 3. Form a new plan. 4. See #2. Repeat this process as necessary. Thankyou Angelfish, I appreciate your input, but you are beginning to repeat yourself. You don't think it is possible to defeat Vecna pre-epic, I heard you the first, second, and third time. However, I need to destroy him, so I'm going to use the suggestions posted here as best I can.
Angelflesh 03-14-07, 09:20 PM	I repeat myself because the task isn't attainable pre-epic, you need to be at least around level 40. Failure isn't a possibility, it's an inevitability. Besides, i'm not the only one who told it's not gonna happen.
Morgotho 03-14-07, 10:00 PM	Seeing as how Vecna's messing with Pelor there, you might want to check and see if Pelor has any ideas... Failing that... 1. Get killed 2. Re-roll an *EVIL* cleric 3. Divine Persist Greater Consumptive Field (level 7 death/evil spell in SpC) - this will gain you a +1d8 temp hp and +2 strength per victim with 9 hp or fewer 4. Run through a few towns/farms/anywhere with a lot of very weak creatures 5. Kill Vecna 6. Take his place
gmhack 03-14-07, 10:35 PM	*Warning* this is an unusual idea, with absolutely no foundation in RAW *End Warning* Being that Vecna is the god of secrets, it would occur that no plan or person that contains any secrecy could have any effect on him. (As he would have power over their secrets) I would require the PCs to basically make all things about them and their plans openly known (perhaps even their personal truenames, if you Play with ToM) in a ritual to break any power that Vecna could hold over them. This would allow you to give them whatever bonuses they needed to have a shot against him, explained as Vecna's lack of power over those that are completely honest and open.
Kakita_Duelist 03-14-07, 10:46 PM	I think the Last Word is more closely replicated as a unique Salient Divine Ability. Thus it keeps it out of the hands of Mortals and only usable by creatures with some measure of Divinity. how can it be a SDA when Orcus had it... i think... check 3rd Edition MoTP
Angelflesh 03-14-07, 10:49 PM	Failing that... 1. Get killed 2. Re-roll an *EVIL* cleric 3. Divine Persist Greater Consumptive Field (level 7 death/evil spell in SpC) - this will gain you a +1d8 temp hp and +2 strength per victim with 9 hp or fewer 4. Run through a few towns/farms/anywhere with a lot of very weak creatures 5. Kill Vecna 6. Take his place This wont work, because even if you roll in there with a couple hundred Hp and strong as an ox, you're getting hit from 10 miles away by 19d12 worth of damage from Divine Blast, not to mention the plethora of cleric and wizard spells with long range. *Warning* this is an unusual idea, with absolutely no foundation in RAW *End Warning* Being that Vecna is the god of secrets, it would occur that no plan or person that contains any secrecy could have any effect on him. (As he would have power over their secrets) I would require the PCs to basically make all things about them and their plans openly known (perhaps even their personal truenames, if you Play with ToM) in a ritual to break any power that Vecna could hold over them. This would allow you to give them whatever bonuses they needed to have a shot against him, explained as Vecna's lack of power over those that are completely honest and open. Well, with the Know Secrets SDA, Vecna just needs to look at someone and knows the person's entire history, secrets or not. He doesn't need to look you face to face, he do so from long range by whatever means he can think of. Even if that doesn't work, everything is a secret before it comes out of your mouth. You formulate a plan in your head, it's a secret, he knows all about it know. You need to understand the sheer magnitude of a deity's abilities. Near limitless resources, contingency plans, escape plans (Teleport Without Error At Will). I hate to be the bearer of bad news and to burst bubbles, but these are the facts.
primemover003 03-14-07, 11:06 PM	how can it be a SDA when Orcus had it... i think... check 3rd Edition MoTP Um, Orcus was a God in 2nd edition when the Last Word was created. It hasn't been replicated for 3rd that I know of.
Morgotho 03-14-07, 11:14 PM	Angelfish, the Persisted Consumptive Field wasn't intended to be a serious response. I wasn't really expecting the OP's DM to allow an evil cleric with divine metamagic on that particular spell into his game (nor do I expect the paladin in the party to put up with such wanton murder as was suggested). Besides, as a god of Magic, I expect Vecna has a way to turn such a powered up hulk into a mere mortal again (dispel). Honestly though, if the OP's DM wants them to be able to defeat Vecna, they're probably just a made up artifact and a major fight away from it. If not, well, they could probably try and keep the savior child on the run for 18 years or so, and then let the DM have his demigod DMPC.
Palindrome 03-14-07, 11:16 PM	Even if you pose a threat at all, which you don't, Vecna can teleport without error at will. So good luck trying to keep him in the fight at all. Look, you gotta face it. There are far too many loose ends to tie up in order to prepare for a fight against Vecna. Hell, Vecna could throw up an Area Divine shield and make it ignore akind of damage type that tickles his fancy. Even before you enter combat, Vecna can simply blast you with Divine Blast and take one, some, or all of you out even before you even see him. I agree. Considering that this is Vecna, the god of secrets (and not the god of easily hidden phylacteries), even if someone manages to kill him, he's had several thousand years to devise phylactery protections at least. Meaning that you can count on it to probably be magically cloaked, possibly even jump from location to location at random intervals so you can't really get a bead on it (and all of these locations are going to be heavily guarded), so on. All he has to do is stall for however long it takes for him to regenerate, and he's back again. As far as the Last Word is concerned, I think that it would probably be a an artifact with some variant rules-particularly the issue that if you read it (and live) you're considered to possess it as well. In Lost Gods, I think it was described that even looking at the wreckage after Orcus had demolished it was painful.
Angelflesh 03-14-07, 11:24 PM	Orcus did get a hold of the Last Word, but only as Tenebrous. It also goes on to say the power of the Last Word had dissipated upon his return as he went from Tenebrous back to Orcus.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-15-07, 02:35 AM	This is very disturbing The fact that the sages of Epic and God knowledge know whenever a player inquires as to whether or not their character can defeat a god at xx level doesn't humble you. Instead, you spend dozens of posts trying to outwit eachother describing how dead/mutilated/embarrassed/doomed to failure the PC(s) are, instead of genuinely offering as much help within the parameters the posters specify (OUTSIDE of sarcasm and sardonicism) Are you truly that jaded? :confused:
Gadren 03-15-07, 02:43 AM	I intend to answer all posts made up to this point here. I've answered about half of them, please look for your statement to see my reply. I'm going to bed now, will try and get to rest tommorow. You could try to find a new Dm. Seriously now if you had a cleric he could ask for his god's help. This is the most fun D&D campaign I've played in ever, so there's no reason to find another DM. It's not happening, unless your DM wants you to. It also shouldn't happen unless your DM is a sponge. I'm not familiar with the term "sponge" as it relates to DMs. Is it Vecna from the DDG? Or an avatar? Or just an Aspect of Vecna, possibly advanced? If it is the actual deity, or an avatar, or even just a non-DvR version of the regular Vecna, you are toast. There is no reasonable way that your party could beat any of those. At the very least, Vecna is a 40th/50th level character. Before the DvR. Now, if it is just an aspect, perhaps a powerful one of 25 or more HD, you stand a chance, but without knowing the actual powers it is hard to give you advice on how to do so. If it wasn't the god of secrets, I would tell you to prepare a vat of holy water which you would try to somehow trick/force him into. However, any secret plan is likely to fail against Vecna. Your best bet is to try and move the battle to the Positive Energy Plane, or Celestia. Powerful celestial help wouldn't hurt, along with positive energy spells. Unfortunately, if it is an actual DvR version of Vecna, you have no hope of controlling the battlefield, no hope of launching a secret trick plan and no realistic hope of survival. And like I said before, even if you negate those DvR advantages, you are still facing a 40th level lich spellcaster. It is actually Vecna, not an aspect nor an avatar. Also, it should be noted that there are no Avatars of Vecna because he's a lesser deity. I'm assuming DvR is short for divine rank or something. I'm aware that the power of his divine salient abilities will make this virtually impossible, which is why I started this thread to figure out every advantage I can. Thankyou for the suggestion of moving it to celestia, though I'm not sure how'd I'd lure Vecna there. You could slay Vecana. It's the main theme of threeadventures. One is called "Die Vecna, die!", "Vecna reborn" and "Vecna lives!". All take place before Vecna becomes a god or use a manifestation of him. Within one adventure, you just have to stop him and you get the items to do so, like the Sword of Kas and also the Hand and the Eye of Vecna. It's really long ago, I played and DM'd these adventures. They are 2nd Edition modules. Perhaps your DM has converted one of these? Vecna is ... one Moment (searching my old books)... a 20. level Wizard within these modules. So it's really possible to beat him... I'm familiar with said modules. However, that is not what we are playing. Though maybe the same artifacts could be used to help defeat him. Maybe they even have the unknown side-effect of negating certain salient divine abilities of his? Who knows.. Nuke him from orbit, its the only way to be sure. Now if you cant get to orbit, or you dont have a nuke, you are SOL, Vecna is going to fry you. Don't got any nukes at my disposal. Maybe I could find a sphere of annihiliation. ;) Does SR apply to those things? Maybe I'll have to research a new transmutation spelll called "split atom". I'd reccommend Elysium, specifically Belierin, the third layer of Elyisum and second largest prison in the planes though you'd probably need the help of the Guardianals if you want to do this. If Vecna is proving a serious threat to the planes they'd quite possibly agree to help you out. The Last Word, if you can get your hands on it, would be enough to kill a god, though I have my suspicions Vecna may know it as well. Thankyou for your suggestions. I'll look further into them, because I don't know anything about this, particularly this "last word", though it really doesn't sound like something that'd be available to us. Didnt Vecna take out the majority of the Circle of 8? I highly doubt that your party, as good as they maybe, are of their caliber. Most of the circle of 8 aren't even level 20. Was Mordenkainen present during said attack? Yeah, and after that why don't you kill Grummsh and Lolth. Yay, theocide:rolleye2: I realize your being sarcastic, but it should be noted that Vecna is way below either of these gods power-wise, if for no other reason than his lack of ability to summon avatars. Plus the veritable legions of cultists, followers, and lesser undead. Well hopefully we can rally a legion of light to handle his legion of darkness. Think about it like this - 1. Form a plan. 2. Ditch the plan, Vecna will find out what it is right after you form it. 3. Form a new plan. 4. See #2. Repeat this process as necessary. Also, this is a recent development, but it seems that when Arturius (the "son" of pelor) travels with us, the quasi-divine (rank 0) who's been both annoying and advising the party can't locate us with his divine senses. Don't know if it'll work on a lesser deity (rank10) like Vecna or not, but maybe that'll be the solution to "every plan you come up with, Vecna already knows about it". Gadren, I have three entirely different approaches to this. 1) Get all your characters killed one by one and replace them with the most horrendous cheese you can find from the Complete Optimization boards (the ones they build and then say no one should use. Maybe use the Holy Word cheese?) Kill Vecna. 2) Find either a Divine Oracle, Ancient Loremaster, or Well-Traveled Bard (alternatively, try using your own Bard!). Ask them how to defeat Vecna. They'll probably say you need to collect a series of artifacts (probably including the hand and eye of Vecna and the Sword of Kas) that will inevitably be possessed by a series of BBEGs in the depths of their respective dungeons. (Alternatively, they'll all be hidden in Vecna's big fortress o' doom, forcing you to be all sneaky.) Gather these artifacts at a Special Location and have this Oracle/Loremaster/Bard perform some long, drawn out ritual that will inevitably be crashed by Vecna's worshippers that you will have to vanquish. After the Ritual's complete Vecna will probably be drained to somewhere around your ECL+4 or +5. Then he'll probably withdraw to his secret, ancient citadel which will result in the dungeon crawls of all dungeon crawls. Sounds like a rousing adventure! If this doesn't work, you aren't really supposed to kill Vecna, just screw with his plans. It may be wise to gather some allies as well (perhaps Pelor's clerics, seeing as how Vecna's plans are really messing with Pelor.) Oh, yeah. Whatever you do, you *may* want to tell someone unimportant and inconsequential (that will also not be in a position to tell Vecna or his allies/followers; I suggest an out of the way unimportant village, though all those may be infested with secret cults of one sort of another!) so that its no longer a secret and therefore no longer in Vecna's portfolio. 3) Convert to Vecnaism. (Wee, parenthetical references!) Thankyou for the input. #2 seems closest to what we'd be going for.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-15-07, 02:53 AM	Keep posting Gadren :clap: I'm interested to see how the situation progresses :)
Zalakhiel 03-15-07, 06:15 AM	I know it may sound silly, but you could try some artifacts related to Vecna himself. Remember, he too once possessed the Book of Vile Darkness. Who knows what secrets lie within its pages...
Pfisiar 03-15-07, 06:37 AM	You can't kill a God. Five little words. Is it that hard to understand?
Kakita_Duelist 03-15-07, 07:37 AM	Um, Orcus was a God in 2nd edition when the Last Word was created. It hasn't been replicated for 3rd that I know of. but check the section in the Abyss section in 3rd Ed. MoTP, about Orcus. Says something about him having the Last Word, and this is 3rd Ed, when Orcus wasnt a god, so therefore, it seems to me that you need not have divine power to use the Last Word, although you might need to be a being of considerable power.
Witch 03-15-07, 07:45 AM	You can't kill a God. Five little words. Is it that hard to understand? No, it's easy to understand. It's simply incorrect.
Arturius1 03-15-07, 10:02 AM	You can't kill a God. Five little words. Is it that hard to understand? Except that gods get killed all the time. Besides, a dozen or so people have already said "can't do it" and provided no real help. You have added nothing to the thread.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-15-07, 10:32 AM	but check the section in the Abyss section in 3rd Ed. MoTP, about Orcus. Says something about him having the Last Word, and this is 3rd Ed, when Orcus wasnt a god, so therefore, it seems to me that you need not have divine power to use the Last Word, although you might need to be a being of considerable power. It said Orcus had the Last Word. He no longer does. No one does. It's gone forever.
Pfisiar 03-15-07, 10:34 AM	If Gods get killed all the time in your campaigns, then you or your DM is not taking gods seriously enough.
Mesiolan 03-15-07, 10:38 AM	Some ideas, which could go hand in hand, but will require several campaigns to accomplish. 1) Perhaps you could weaken him by starting a crusade against his followers? IIRC the gods are dependant on their followers. If you have the time to convert/kill almost all of his followers on several planes, this could drag down his divine rank. If you delete every follower and every believer, you could even send him into sleep until his teachings are picked up by new believers. Just make sure you do not make martyrs from his clerics. 2) Similar in approach, you should weaken his foothold on your plane. Raze all of his shrines and temples, burn his libraries. In several published adventures you get "victory points" for this, which result in a weaker (perhaps even defeatable BBEG). Of course, there are complications. First, there are many planes in the multiverse with Vecna followers and Shrines (sheer quantity). Second, you will never ever get surprise on his followers, if HE does not want it that way. Which means, IF you surprise his followers at an important temple, it's probably a trap. My next idea was used in Dragonlance and Back to the Future. Travel in time to a point where he was not yet a god. Kill him and change the future. Make sure he has no means to go back in time to protect himself. Perhaps you can hunt down the 2nd ed. "Chronomancer" supplement, which takes on this topic. Finally, talk to your DM. If he really wants you to fight the original Vecna, and not an Avatar, well... prepare for the worst. I could imagine a campaign, where you need to take out his major temples, his highest-level followers, his champions and avatars. But the god himself...
Witch 03-15-07, 10:40 AM	If Gods get killed all the time in your campaigns, then you or your DM is not taking gods seriously enough. That may be correct, but your previous statement isn't.
crimsonwolf 03-15-07, 10:48 AM	It said Orcus had the Last Word. He no longer does. No one does. It's gone forever. then how do illumians get demigod status all the time?
Pfisiar 03-15-07, 11:00 AM	That may be correct, but your previous statement isn't. Ok, I'll grant you that. I should have said: You should not be able to kill Gods.
AngelofCthulhu 03-15-07, 11:07 AM	then how do illumians get demigod status all the time? Because isn't that the Last Utterance, not the Last Word? I wish the Tenebrous vestige gave some hint of the Last Word's power. Okay, on topic: Straight up your party has no means by which they can kill him. Period. End of story. He is a lich god. If you SOMEHOW manage to actually destroy his body, he will comeback and annihilate you. The trick is then to work around the fact you cannot harm him in any way shape or form. How? Some creative ideas: 1) Vestiges people! You have a devourer of hope, the fallen god Tenebrous, the fallen devil Geryon, and a host of others. If you could somehow pull one of the more potent vestiges back into normal reality you could abuse their vast power, just choose carefully. Like not trying it with the Sovereign of the Howling Dark. Rule number one of dealing with alien powers is: The less you know about them, the less you should deal with them. 2) They mentioned it before, somehow utilize the Last Word. 3) Ally with others gods. Although a rather non-aggressive god, Pelor is one of the strongest of all the deities. 4) The Astral Plane is full of dead deities, try to search them for an answer.
Witch 03-15-07, 11:16 AM	Ok, I'll grant you that. I should have said: You should not be able to kill Gods. I still disagree. What I believe is that killing a god should be an incredible event which will reshape the particular world's history. In general, only the greatest of mortals might be able to succeed in defeating a mere demigod, but there are exceptions (Karsus could be considered).
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-15-07, 11:32 AM	then how do illumians get demigod status all the time? It sure as hell isn't from the Last Word, which only serves to destroy.
Pfisiar 03-15-07, 11:38 AM	I still disagree. What I believe is that killing a god should be an incredible event which will reshape the particular world's history. In general, only the greatest of mortals might be able to succeed in defeating a mere demigod, but there are exceptions (Karsus could be considered). Ok, that I'll go with. But killing a major god creates all sorts of problems. The type of campaign that would lead to a God's death should take months, if not years to develop.
crimsonwolf 03-15-07, 12:59 PM	............... Puppy
Treymordin 03-15-07, 02:01 PM	Humans and others should not be able to kill a god by themselves. However with Vecna you might have the help of Kas and or his sword. However, Vecna is a god and he should slay or dominate or destroy anyone who would dare to attempt to bring him down!
awaken_D_M_golem 03-15-07, 04:47 PM	mmm kay ... In the lower right hand corner are the fast links to Epic , CO , and TO (new) boards. To summarize : A couple of the SDAs just flat out kill mortals. If Vecna doesn't have them , you can kill him/her/it/whatever. It's still a bit of a strech. And Vecna has very powerful followers / cohorts to sop up your artillery. Good Luck but you CAN do it.
Regular_K 03-15-07, 04:52 PM	Pun Pun at 20th level. That's all I can think of.
Treymordin 03-15-07, 07:11 PM	If he were pray to move about being destroyed, prayers would move him.
Arturius1 03-15-07, 08:04 PM	Ok, I'll grant you that. I should have said: You should not be able to kill Gods. Definitely agree with that. And I wasn't talking about in-game. I mean in mythos. Gods do die often. And if you doubt it, take a look through the pantheons. Greek: Titans wiped out Norse: Balder, dead D&D: Io, dead As far as Vecna goes: good luck! The odds are definitely against you, but there's always that 2.5% chance that he'll roll a natural 1 and you'll roll a natural 20.
Bopple 03-15-07, 09:31 PM	Defeating a deity without any outer help(be it another deity, an artifact, or whatever) is impossible. Don't try to figure out a viable method. There is none you can devise. The DM will give you the clue and helper NPCs. All you have to do is, preparing gears and spells which prevent you from dying too easily. For example, everyone should have Mind Blank, Death Ward, Sheltered Vitality, Spell Turning, all kind of energy immunity, and ect.
Bopple 03-15-07, 09:45 PM	Gods(except for DvR0 quasigods) don't fail a roll on natural 1.
Arturius1 03-15-07, 10:15 PM	Quite right. But you sure as hell would prefer a 1 over a 2.
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:52 AM	My next idea was used in Dragonlance and Back to the Future. Travel in time to a point where he was not yet a god. Kill him and change the future. Make sure he has no means to go back in time to protect himself. Perhaps you can hunt down the 2nd ed. "Chronomancer" supplement, which takes on this topic. 2e Chronomancer says you explode if you try to alter history, so that may not be the most helpful idea. Finally, talk to your DM. If he really wants you to fight the original Vecna, and not an Avatar, well... prepare for the worst. I could imagine a campaign, where you need to take out his major temples, his highest-level followers, his champions and avatars. But the god himself... I still don't get why anyone would think this was a good or even meaningful idea for a campaign. It seems to me a serious misapprehension of what Vecna *is*, probably someone who played some of the old Vecna modules where he's not a god yet, or who's played ad hoc campaigns where "gods" are just big bads with big bad SLAs but aren't that hard to kill. I mean, if he wants you to fight Vecna, I'm guessing he's just made up his own "Vecna" stat block that isn't actually that powerful, and beating him will just involve finding the right spell/ability combo.
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:57 AM	1) Vestiges people! You have a devourer of hope, the fallen god Tenebrous, the fallen devil Geryon, and a host of others. If you could somehow pull one of the more potent vestiges back into normal reality you could abuse their vast power, just choose carefully. Like not trying it with the Sovereign of the Howling Dark. Rule number one of dealing with alien powers is: The less you know about them, the less you should deal with them. Oh, come on. "Restore a vestige to life" is up there *above* "kill an existing god" in terms of impossibility. Killing a god is something we know can be done and has been done with enough power. Not so for restoring vestiges, and every single tiny little thing we know about vestiges is all about how even the minuscule, pathetic existence they have is a violation of the very laws of nature. Not that I'd say it's impossible. But it's like killing a god. It's something that only happens because you've done something to violate the expectations of the setting by being Special and Plot-Centric. Like Karsus killing Mystra. But the point of vestiges is that they can't be resurrected. They're not petitioners. They're not diminished gods, or the corpses of gods. They're not anything. That's why they are vestiges. They can be bound the way they can be bound because they have no physical location or independent identity. 2) They mentioned it before, somehow utilize the Last Word. 3) Ally with others gods. Although a rather non-aggressive god, Pelor is one of the strongest of all the deities. 4) The Astral Plane is full of dead deities, try to search them for an answer. Look, if the DM's going to do this, he's gonna do it the way he wants to do it. Bringing up stuff that's highly specific like the Last Word isn't going to help -- it's not like D&D is a real place with real rules. The cosmology in this game is going to be dictated by the DM, and most DMs who set up something as big and insane as killing Vecna aren't going to be impressed by people looking up setting material like the Last Word and insisting on bringing it in.
betrayor 03-16-07, 10:59 AM	[QUOTE=Gadren;11772509]I intend to answer all posts made up to this point here. I've answered about half of them, please look for your statement to see my reply. I'm going to bed now, will try and get to rest tommorow. This is the most fun D&D campaign I've played in ever, so there's no reason to find another DM. It was olny a joke .Didn't mean to insult anybody. Back to your problem.Your team should really get the help of a deity.Pelor for example.After al, its olny fair because you will have to fight a deity so you should have some help from above too. Maybe become you could get some divine ranks temporalily from the good deities so you would have a shot at defeating Vecna.There are other ways but are simply too difficult to be atained pre-Epic. P.S. Sorry about the bad use of english.it is not my natural tongue. y
DungeonMaster 03-16-07, 12:33 PM	I have your nuke. There's the god killer spell of 3.5: holy word. Just make your caster level ridiculous - which is more than possible using non-core rules - and *pop* he dies. Check the char_opt boards for it. Because holy word isn't a death effect and isn't covered by any of the protections that the 3rd edition designers have in place for gods. No one ever thought about uncapping holy word, no one would have ever done something that stupid in the original design team. It's the most ridiculously powerful spell ever created for D&D in the history of the game. It makes apocalypse from the sky, quest magic and elven high magic look like children's toys. If you can get holy word put into a staff you can use-magic-device replacing your skill check for the caster level of the spell. You can reach even higher levels of ridiculous with this, killing greater deities by the score. All you need to do is get them into range and *pop* they all die in a standard action - no rolls required.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-16-07, 01:55 PM	Because holy word isn't a death effect and isn't covered by any of the protections that the 3rd edition designers have in place for gods. Actually, it is. By the rules, any spell or spell-like ability that kills instantly is a death effect.
Witch 03-16-07, 01:58 PM	No one ever thought about uncapping holy word Plenty of people have. But the fact that Spell Immunity utterly cancels it, that Spell Resistance is required, etcetera, weaken the spell significantly unless you're able to ridiculously raise CL (likely an exploit).
Bopple 03-16-07, 08:16 PM	Actually, it is. By the rules, any spell or spell-like ability that kills instantly is a death effect. No, only the spells with death descriptor are death spells.
Mirtek 03-17-07, 08:01 AM	You could slay Vecana. It's the main theme of threeadventures. One is called "Die Vecna, die!", "Vecna reborn" and "Vecna lives!". All take place before Vecna becomes a god or use a manifestation of him. Within one adventure, you just have to stop him and you get the items to do so, like the Sword of Kas and also the Hand and the Eye of Vecna. Even there you don't slay Vecna. They all happen after his ascension (to demigod). In the first adventure You end with a fight between Iuz and Vecna and on the right moment you push both fighting demigods through a portal. You don't fight either demigod, as they would toast you with ease. In the second adventure you end up seing Vecna absorbing Iuz and then leaving Ravenloft. You don't fight him. In the last adventure Vecna is a greater deity and has entered Sigil. You fight an avatar of Vecna while Vecna's true self is locked in an off-stage battle with the Lady of Pain. That's the most direct fight against Vecna in the whole trilogy and even then it's only an avatar (it's even a weakened avatar, since Vecna is too busy with the Lady to manifest a proper avatar and thus the avatar you face lacks some of the powerfull standard traits he should have) As for a 20th level party defeating Vecna: Between his SR 62, divine immunties, undead immunities and his saving throws at +28, +33 and +44 (doesn't autofail on a natural 1) all your casters will be useless (whatever goes through the SR and his two sets of immunity will be stopped by his saves and after that his divine shield). Your melees will be stopped by his AC 51. And that's all without all the hundreds of defensive spells Vecna can cast upon himself. The last word... Isn't that the ultimate weapon that kills it's wielder too, god or mortal... Deities can use it just fine, quasi-divine beings can use it for some time until they're killed from within by the mere knowledge of the word. Mortals can not wield it at all, they're instandly annihilated by merely knowing the word.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 09:32 AM	No, only the spells with death descriptor are death spells. Not according to the glossary.
Bopple 03-17-07, 12:22 PM	Yes, it is true, according to Rules of the Game.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 12:54 PM	Yes, it is true, according to Rules of the Game. Link?
Alpha_Moose 03-17-07, 01:31 PM	Link? Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks). It just says what a death effect is, not what is a death effect. I'd have to go with saying only spells with the death descriptor are death effects.
somethings90 03-17-07, 01:33 PM	I don't know much about "The Final Word" but Arturius could learn it, use it and have it erased from his memory with "Programmed Amnesia" before he dies from knowing it.
Angelflesh 03-17-07, 02:02 PM	I don't know much about "The Final Word" but Arturius could learn it, use it and have it erased from his memory with "Programmed Amnesia" before he dies from knowing it. Wait a minute... Mortals can not wield it at all, they're instandly annihilated by merely knowing the word. QFT.
somethings90 03-17-07, 02:49 PM	I don't know much about "The Final Word" but Arturius could learn it, use it and have it erased from his memory with "Programmed Amnesia" before he dies from knowing it. Wait a minute... Quote: Mortals can not wield it at all, they're instandly annihilated by merely knowing the word. QFT. Arturius has a Divine Rank 0
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 04:00 PM	Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks). It just says what a death effect is, not what is a death effect. I'd have to go with saying only spells with the death descriptor are death effects. The Glossary in the PHB states that any spell or spell-like ability that kills outright is a death effect. I'm reasonably sure that it trumps that portion of the SRD. Edit: Also, if only spells with the death descriptor were death effects, then implosion, phantasmal killer, and weird are not death effects.
Witch 03-17-07, 04:46 PM	Edit: Also, if only spells with the death descriptor were death effects, then implosion, phantasmal killer, and weird are not death effects. Yep. What's the point of the [Death] descriptor if not showing that it's a death effect?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 05:42 PM	Yep. What's the point of the [Death] descriptor if not showing that it's a death effect? No point, really. Same as with many of the descriptors, as stated in the PHB.
Witch 03-17-07, 05:51 PM	Descriptors are described as governing interaction with other spells. The notion "death effect" only has a meaning in relation to other spells. There'd be no reason to distinguish them otherwise. Death Ward protects against death effects - which is spells that have the [Death] descriptor. It doesn't protect against, say, Weird.
Bopple 03-17-07, 10:26 PM	Link? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040803a Moreover, Glossary is not the utmost standard of the rules. Actually, there is no such thing, if any, it's Corebooks and errata. If Glossary, Corebooks, FAQ, RotG contradict with themselves, you cannot be sure which is right. And most of all, they don't contradict with themselves, in this case. Glossary says instantly killing effects are death effects. RotG says instantly killing effects with [Death] descriptor are death effects. But Glossary does not say all the instantly killing effects are death effects. Thus, logically, there is no contradiction. Only instantly killing effects with [Death] descriptor are death effects.
somethings90 03-18-07, 12:40 PM	If you want to be really cheep then find the Hand of Vecna, clip it's fingernail and create an ice assasin.
Khael 03-18-07, 12:49 PM	If you want to be really cheep then find the Hand of Vecna, clip it's fingernail and create an ice assasin. Or get a geometer to do it, and cut out the fingernail. Right before the DM clubs you with both CA and his DMG...
Witch 03-18-07, 01:10 PM	Ice Assassin is so broken it isn't funny. All you need is Eschew Materials.
Mirtek 03-18-07, 01:47 PM	I don't think an ice assassin could duplicate DvR. So at best you have a clone of Vecna with equal class levels, skills, feast and so on, but without DvR. ... spell creates a living, breathing creature that ... -> since a deity is neither of this, it may even fail completly and create nothing, not even a clone without DvR
awaken_D_M_golem 03-18-07, 02:06 PM	mmm kay ... In the lower right hand corner are the fast links to Epic , CO , and TO (new) boards. To summarize : A couple of the SDAs just flat out kill mortals. If Vecna doesn't have them , you can kill him/her/it/whatever. It's still a bit of a strech. And Vecna has very powerful followers / cohorts to sop up your artillery. Good Luck but you CAN do it. { ... an overdeity casts DejaVu ... } mmm kay ... { ... an overdeity casts DejaVu ... } { ... and then wonders [knowledge psi- check] who or what 'cast' DejaVu on him ??? } I figured no one would look , so I went looking for y'all ;) , a.k.a. Google site:boards1.wizards.com , yawn. Thing 1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-387616) Thing 2 Thing 3 (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-389626) Now , DON'T click the links above , if you want the answer. Click the links if you like Jerry Springer-ish grousing about the ... eventual ... answer. And whatever you do , don't take off you Ring of Contrary-ness , 1stEdition.
somethings90 03-18-07, 05:54 PM	Ice Assassin is so broken it isn't funny. All you need is Eschew Materials. Can you use Eschew Materials for Ice Assassin? If so then you could make an Ice Assassin of any one.
Witch 03-18-07, 08:22 PM	Can you use Eschew Materials for Ice Assassin? If so then you could make an Ice Assassin of any one. In theory, you could, as no price is listed for the material component. But in practice, no DM is going to allow it (and with good reason).
DungeonMaster 03-19-07, 09:18 AM	The Glossary in the PHB states that any spell or spell-like ability that kills outright is a death effect. I'm reasonably sure that it trumps that portion of the SRD. Edit: Also, if only spells with the death descriptor were death effects, then implosion, phantasmal killer, and weird are not death effects. Implosion is not a death effect - that's it's only really killer aspect in truth. Death ward will not protect you against the balor. Phantasmal killer is a fear effect, as is weird. You can die by fright as well as by outright death according to the rules. There are even monsters that do this, such as hags. Descriptors p.152 in the 3rd edition PhB details what descriptors are.
ArcTan 03-20-07, 12:52 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040803a Moreover, Glossary is not the utmost standard of the rules. Actually, there is no such thing, if any, it's Corebooks and errata. If Glossary, Corebooks, FAQ, RotG contradict with themselves, you cannot be sure which is right. Glossaries are *in* the core books. They're a lot more of a standard than, say, Rules of the Game articles written by Skip Williams, who consistently contradicts the actual rules in his articles for no apparent reason and has led most people who've followed his career as the Sage to conclude he just doesn't bother to check when he makes rulings. Seriously, Web articles like Rules of the Game or Sage Advice come *after* the FAQ when it comes to degrees of officialness. The core books are actually designed and tested by a whole department at WotC over a period of months. The FAQ at least has multiple people look at it before an item is added to it. Web articles are one dude getting paid peanuts to bang something out in his spare time while he's working on something else. When it comes to rules questions, they're not worth the paper they're printed on -- especially ones by Skip"(ped reading the actual rules" Williams, a.k.a. Skip "Wait, they changed the weapon size rules in 3.5?" Williams, or Skip "Dwarves shouldn't wear heavy armor because it slows them down" Williams, or... arrgh, it makes me mad just thinking about it. And most of all, they don't contradict with themselves, in this case. Glossary says instantly killing effects are death effects. RotG says instantly killing effects with [Death] descriptor are death effects. But Glossary does not say all the instantly killing effects are death effects. Thus, logically, there is no contradiction. Yes, there is. Definitions in a glossary are supposed to be complete. Moreover, the PHB is also supposed to contain the definition for the [Death] descriptor, and says no such thing under the [Death] descriptor. If this is a ruling you can *only* get from the RotG article, then it's wrong.
enygmatic_me 03-20-07, 02:17 AM	If you have a Binder in your group striking a deal with Kas is probably the best place to start. If you don't have a Binder, getting one is probably the best place to start. Then it really becomes a matter of reducing Vecna's divine rank. Time to cut a merciless swath through the cultists. A few of questions you might want to get answered. 1) What is the Divine Law in regard to Dieties and leaving their home plane? 2) Are the more vulnerable if they do? 3) Can they be killed when away from their home plane or are the just destroyed and sent back to their home plane? Knowing this will help in figuring out how, if at all, killing Vecna can be accomplished.
Bopple 03-20-07, 02:40 AM	Glossaries are *in* the core books. They're a lot more of a standard than, say, Rules of the Game articles written by Skip Williams, who consistently contradicts the actual rules in his articles for no apparent reason and has led most people who've followed his career as the Sage to conclude he just doesn't bother to check when he makes rulings. Seriously, Web articles like Rules of the Game or Sage Advice come *after* the FAQ when it comes to degrees of officialness. The core books are actually designed and tested by a whole department at WotC over a period of months. The FAQ at least has multiple people look at it before an item is added to it. Web articles are one dude getting paid peanuts to bang something out in his spare time while he's working on something else. When it comes to rules questions, they're not worth the paper they're printed on -- especially ones by Skip"(ped reading the actual rules" Williams, a.k.a. Skip "Wait, they changed the weapon size rules in 3.5?" Williams, or Skip "Dwarves shouldn't wear heavy armor because it slows them down" Williams, or... arrgh, it makes me mad just thinking about it. It's not unknown that there are errors in corebooks, FAQ, errata and RotG. There is no absolute gold standard. You have to go case by case, unless you go down into the obscene level of literal reading(at which it's unplayable anyway). And as a sidenote, RotG has less errors than FAQ, actually. Yes, there is. Definitions in a glossary are supposed to be complete. Moreover, the PHB is also supposed to contain the definition for the [Death] descriptor, and says no such thing under the [Death] descriptor. If this is a ruling you can *only* get from the RotG article, then it's wrong. No, there are errors in corebooks. Complete? The rule does not even say what happens after you die. Just because it says nothing about it, would you argue you can take actions as you like? And the definitions in question do not contradict with themselves, anyway. Wrong? Just because you say so? Look at the descriptors. Elemental spells. The corebooks refer to them as fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic. They don't say [Fire], [Cold], [Acid], [Electricity], or [Sonic]. They don't say [Fear]. They say fear spells. They don't say [Mind-affecting]. They say mind-affecting spells. They don't say [Good], [Evil], [Lawful], or [Chaotic]. They say good/evil/lawful/chaotic spells. Everything else works like that. But death does not work as such, just because you say wrong? Yeah, whatever.
ArcTan 03-20-07, 02:50 AM	It's not unknown that there are errors in corebooks, FAQ, errata and RotG. There is no absolute gold standard. You have to go case by case, unless you go down into the obscene level of literal reading(at which it's unplayable anyway). And as a sidenote, RotG has less errors than FAQ, actually. Er... details, please? RotG is a lot shorter than the FAQ, sure. But this just makes what errors it has way more egregious. No, there are errors in corebooks. Depends what you mean by that. Yes, they do make mistakes, but by definition those mistakes can't be officially corrected except by errata in the books. Allowing people to say that their fix for a core book problem is "official" without going through the editing and publishing process opens up a huge can of worms. It lets Skip Williams remove dwarves' ability to move freely in heavy armor by simply forgetting about it, for example. And the definitions do not contradict with themselves, anyway. They implicitly do. Because writing down a definition in a glossary and not adding a crucial bit implies that the definition is complete. Wrong? Just because you say so? Wrong because the core books are our actual source for the rules, as WotC has said on multiple occasions, and Web articles can only be taken as suggestions. Complete? The rule does not even say what happens after you die. Just because it says nothing about it, would you argue you can take actions as you like? No. Common sense does play a part. I don't see how common sense says that the "death" descriptor defines what a death effect is. You'll notice, for instance, that it's a death *effect*, not a death *spell*, which means that you have to be able to decide whether a monster's SLAs or Supernatural Abilities count as death effects -- and since they *aren't* spells, they don't get spell descriptors. Saying that a death effect is an effect that mandates death upon a failed save makes sense to me. I don't see why the [death] descriptor defines a death effect, any more than the [evil] descriptor defining an evil act. (Hint: Fireballing an orphanage is still evil regardless of whether fireball is an [evil] spell or not.) Look at the descriptors. Elemental spells. The corebooks refer to them as fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic. They don't say [Fire], [Cold], [Acid], [Electricity], or [Sonic]. They don't say [Fear]. They say fear spells. They don't say [Mind-affecting]. They say mind-affecting spells. They don't say [Good], [Evil], [Lawful], or [Chaotic]. They say good/evil/lawful/chaotic spells. Everything else works like that. But death does not work as such, just because you say wrong? Yeah, whatever. They don't say "death spells". They say "death effects". A red dragon's breath weapon is still fire even though it's not a fire spell with the [fire] descriptor.
ArcTan 03-20-07, 02:56 AM	If you have a Binder in your group striking a deal with Kas is probably the best place to start. If you don't have a Binder, getting one is probably the best place to start. You can't "strike a deal with Kas" as a Binder. I mean, you can strike a deal with Kas' vestige, but this will always be the same deal -- you manifest Kas' vestige as part of your personality in exchange for certain powers. No more and no less. People keep ignoring what I think is the really awesome part of Pact Magic, and the part that makes it not broken and not a violation of the rules about planar contact in D&D -- that vestiges *aren't really the people they're vestiges of*. They have no sentience left, no free will, no identity. They're just bits and pieces. That's why they can do things like be in two, or five, or ten thousand places at once -- why two binders, one Good and one Evil, can *both* bind Kas at the same time and use Kas's powers against each other, without Kas objecting -- because there is no Kas to object. Kas' soul is gone. Kas' consciousness is gone. All that's left is bits and pieces that aren't enough to form a real person by themselves, and hence have no location, no personality, no definition -- and hence are free to become one with any person with any alignment. This is why vestiges were *not* given with any alignments of their own or any alignment restrictions (Chaotic Good Binders can easily bind the vestige of the former archdevil Geryon) and why Influence is always some weird personality quirk that's essentially Neutral, not any overarching Good or Evil or Lawful or Chaotic motivation. Kas can't help you. Kas is dead. Kas no longer wants anything, is no longer capable of making plans or having desires. Because he isn't a person. You can talk to something that's a mishmash of Kas' thoughts and feelings, but there's not enough of it left to hold real *memories*, to impart real *information*. (Remember that ToM strongly recommends never allowing a vestige to actually say anything of substance to the PCs.) There is no real Kas anymore -- there's just something left over after Kas was destroyed, and destroyed so utterly there isn't any *real* remnant of Kas that could ever come back and become Kas again, no petitioner or ghost. Just the shape of Kas, some of Kas' old power, some of Kas' old personality traits -- but NO REAL ENTITY. It's that that makes vestiges and binders so different from other stuff in D&D, and that that gets eroded when people suggest using vestiges to get advice or roleplaying vestiges as having motives and goals or whatever.
Bopple 03-20-07, 03:16 AM	Er... details, please? RotG is a lot shorter than the FAQ, sure. But this just makes what errors it has way more egregious. RotG a lot shorter? By what standard? Way more egregious? And by what standard? Depends what you mean by that. Yes, they do make mistakes, but by definition those mistakes can't be officially corrected except by errata in the books. Allowing people to say that their fix for a core book problem is "official" without going through the editing and publishing process opens up a huge can of worms. It lets Skip Williams remove dwarves' ability to move freely in heavy armor by simply forgetting about it, for example. No, it's not about which is more authentic, in general. It's about corebook is not perfect. It has errors. It's about we have to use our common sense and cross-check other materials, on occasions. They implicitly do. Because writing down a definition in a glossary and not adding a crucial bit implies that the definition is complete. Ah then, good/evil/lawful/chaotic/mind-affecting/earth/water/air/ect mean nothing but garbled codes, because they are not defined in glossary. Wrong because the core books are our actual source for the rules, as WotC has said on multiple occasions, and Web articles can only be taken as suggestions. Yeah, but it's also true core books have errors. And in that case, we should use our common sense and other materials. No. Common sense does play a part. I don't see how common sense says that the "death" descriptor defines what a death effect is. Because RotG says it. And because Glossary does not contradict it. And if one has a tag [Death], then common sense says it's a death effect, pretty much. You'll notice, for instance, that it's a death *effect*, not a death *spell*, which means that you have to be able to decide whether a monster's SLAs or Supernatural Abilities count as death effects -- and since they *aren't* spells, they don't get spell descriptors. Wow, what a logic. Are you saying if I get Hold Person as my spell-like ability, it's not mind-affecting anymore, just because it loses a descriptor as a spell? Saying that a death effect is an effect that mandates death upon a failed save makes sense to me. I don't see why the [death] descriptor defines a death effect, Because RotG says it. And because Glossary does not contradict it. And if one has a tag [Death], then common sense says it's a death effect, pretty much. any more than the [evil] descriptor defining an evil act. (Hint: Fireballing an orphanage is still evil regardless of whether fireball is an [evil] spell or not.) Oh, are you suggesting if I take Evil domain, I can cast every spell at +1 caster level as an evil spell? They don't say "death spells". They say "death effects". A red dragon's breath weapon is still fire even though it's not a fire spell with the [fire] descriptor. Yeah, you said. Discrimination between spell and effect is pointless. They are no different in essence, from each other, except they are in different forms. Death effect is not much different from death spell - spell with [Death] descriptor.
DungeonMaster 03-20-07, 11:04 AM	No. Common sense does play a part. I don't see how common sense says that the "death" descriptor defines what a death effect is. You'll notice, for instance, that it's a death *effect*, not a death *spell*, which means that you have to be able to decide whether a monster's SLAs or Supernatural Abilities count as death effects -- and since they *aren't* spells, they don't get spell descriptors. All spell like abilities work exactly as spells with few minor variations such as they can't be counterspelled. The 3rd edition PhB p.158 has a section on this: "Usually a spell like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. (...) In all other ways a spell like ability functions just like a spell." Even su and ex abilities can have descriptors. A harpy's song is a "sonic mind-affecting charm". p.118 3rd edition MM. A hag's evil eye is not a death effect though you can die from it. A bodak's death gaze says right after it: Death. It is a death effect. They don't say "death spells". They say "death effects". A red dragon's breath weapon is still fire even though it's not a fire spell with the [fire] descriptor. Disintegration and implosion do kill you but they are not death effects or death spells. Many things can kill you outright, like an iron golem's poisonous breath weapon, without being death effects. You can die from fear - as per phantasmal killer. Holy word is just another spell that kills you outright without being a death spell. I agree with you that common sense would dictate that holy word should be covered as a death effect - because it doesn't transmute your body such as a disintegration or implosion - but as it stands in the rules it isn't.
meave 03-20-07, 12:58 PM	As far as Vecna goes: good luck! The odds are definitely against you, but there's always that 2.5% chance that he'll roll a natural 1 and you'll roll a natural 20. the odds are actualy 1 out of 400 which is 0.25% while it is possible, the odds realy are against you
Mirtek 03-20-07, 01:07 PM	As far as Vecna goes: good luck! The odds are definitely against you, but there's always that 2.5% chance that he'll roll a natural 1 and you'll roll a natural 20. the odds are actualy 1 out of 400 which is 0.25% while it is possible, the odds realy are against you Even if this happens: Gods do not automatically fail on a natural 1. About the whole What is a death effect thing: Even the FAQ says that an assassin's death attack is not a death effect because it does not have the [Death] descriptor. So even an attack that demands a fortitude save and instandly slays you if you fail is not considered a death effect unless it hast the [Death] descriptor.
Arturius1 03-20-07, 11:13 PM	Sorry if this was brought up, but what are the feats and (if any) PrC levels of the party? Also, your melee guys will both want Greater Truedeath Crystals. Does extra 1d6 damage against undead and allows them to be critted. EDIT: Also, Orb of Force. No SR or energy resist. Since it's only level 4, maximize that mother.
Praedoran 03-21-07, 11:37 AM	Best thing to do is campaign against his followers. Without believers will power will wane substantially. Ideas: False Priests, Promoting Other Death Gods, Crusades, Divination to find secret temples, and killing his major priesthood. Organized religion is the power structure of a Greater Diety. Take this down and he will fall in rank. Hunt down the smaller groups and in time, you'll eventually put him in such a state another Diety will gladly take his place. However, do not think you can just outright kill a god. Divine beings are given powers over the cosmos to make sure everything runs smoothly.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-21-07, 04:56 PM	Divine beings are given powers over the cosmos to make sure everything runs smoothly. No, they aren't. They're beings who, by hook or by crook, discovered a way to massive power at a massive cost.
Praedoran 03-21-07, 07:12 PM	Not in every setting Raymond. In some religions, Gods are simply another higher form of life (Greek Mythology) who propogate more gods. These are still Mortal in some sense. Kratos has shown us how to kill these ;) In some (Faerun), as you point out, Gods are beings who ascended into the heavens by some almost impossible means. These too, are mortal in some sense. They simply wield the Divine, they are not -the- Divine in my opinion. Hindu sees one Supreme God, but with three aspects: A Creator, Destroyer, and Preserver. Christianity sees one Supreme God, but with three aspects: Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. For example, a Divine Maker, the creator of our universe, had to have existed before everything else in order to make it. Therefore, how can He possibly be an Ascended being? Arguing over what is and what isn't a God though, is completely subjective however. Aboriginals and Native Americans saw the White man as Gods. Egyptians and many middle earth monarchs saw their Pharaoh as a God. Given just the PHB and DMG, a Dungeon Master could quite justifiably put a CR 20 on any God he likes, but with the fact that no one can kill a Deity simply because one cannot access their Plane of Existance. In the case of Vecna, it's all in interpretation. So lets lay off this subject and continue back on to how to kill him.
Arturius1 03-22-07, 12:01 AM	I think there's enough content to cover the beatdown. But the odds of Vecna coming up at the bottom of initiative are extremely slim. Fortunately, Vecna's only a caster level 20 in either arcane or divine, so getting some SR on players won't be impossible (or even that difficult). For the life of me, I can't think of any ways for the monk to contribute outside the realm of meatshield.
Mirtek 03-22-07, 12:41 PM	Fortunately, Vecna's only a caster level 20 in either arcane or divine, so getting some SR on players won't be impossible (or even that difficult). +10 DvR +2 Spell penetration and he can always take 10 on his check. So he will automatically beat any SR of 42 or less. If that fails he can either resort to spells with no SR too or use Alter Reality to ignore your SR (likely using AR to destroy the source of your SR and than continue with his spellslots which give him more options)
Arturius1 03-22-07, 01:10 PM	Oh, well, then.....****. Rings of Spell Turning all around?
Alpha_Moose 03-22-07, 01:26 PM	Oh, well, then.....****. Rings of Spell Turning all around? Alter Reality pretty much screws with anything you do. And he could MDJ you and kill off all your items, from 10 miles away. In a normal fight you will probably lose, but you can still defeat him in other ways. Most would probably be built within your campaign though. If you think you are going to fight him plan for fighting a normal lich-wizard. There's nothing you can really do to prepare for his divine powers.
Arturius1 03-22-07, 01:54 PM	Well, there's plenty you can do to prepare. Whether they work or not is decided by the fight.
Angelflesh 03-22-07, 02:15 PM	Eh, i'm pretty sure Vecna will be making that decision.
Shadowmind64 03-22-07, 03:18 PM	Ok, sorry if this has been said before, but it really comes down to what your DM wants. If he wants you to be able to kill vecna somehow, you guys will. If he just lays it straight by the rules, it is statistically impossible to beat him at your level. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen. But, from the sound of it this is the climactic end to the giant storyline your DM has made, so im sure that you will find a way.
docballen 03-22-07, 03:22 PM	Maybe the whole point of this "Assignment" is to have a mortal party appear to kill Vecna, thus getting others off his case. Maybe he'll appear to die, or be dismembered, just to appear somewhere else. Vecna is the god of secrets-- that would be a doozy.
Gadren 03-23-07, 04:06 PM	Alter Reality pretty much screws with anything you do. And he could MDJ you and kill off all your items, from 10 miles away. In a normal fight you will probably lose, but you can still defeat him in other ways. Most would probably be built within your campaign though. If you think you are going to fight him plan for fighting a normal lich-wizard. There's nothing you can really do to prepare for his divine powers. Well, any time he uses Alter Reality to do something outside the effects of a standard wish spell, he has to rest for a period of time. Anyways, I'm hoping that somehow Arturius' (the one who has Pelor's blood in him) ability to block deific senses can be expanded so when my character comes up with a plan Vecna won't know about it. I suppose we'll rally an army, I'll use craft contingent spell to revivify anyone who is killed inthe party, I'll use all the spells I can on summon dragon ally spells to summon gold dragons (since his massive SR doesn't apply against breath weapons), our army will fight his army and when we go up against him, I'lll MDJ him at my first oppportunity to at least knock out his Bracers of armor +10 so he can be hit easier. I'll craft a few radiant spheres for the bard since his mostly enchantment spells will be mostly useless. Not sure how to find his phylactery though... Oh, and right now we're all only level 8, this is all for me to figure what direction to try and push things in. At any rate, I'm hoping that the fact that Vecna hasn't come down and smote us all (including Arturius) means we've got some sort of blindspot going for us.
Arturius1 03-23-07, 04:53 PM	You're level 8? Well, that leaves a lot of time open to get the fine details finished. Maybe something in Complete Champion will help out :D
Kain Darkwind 03-23-07, 04:57 PM	And of course, there is the time old honored deity trick of fighting in an antimagic field that does not negate any of his own powers, but nearly all of yours. As per the antimagic field description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm), not the deity rules. Even if you rule that Alter Reality is affected by Spell Resistance when duplicating spells (reasonable), an Alter Reality antimagic field is going to make most spell resistance measures for 20th level characters null and void.
Mirtek 03-23-07, 06:53 PM	Well, any time he uses Alter Reality to do something outside the effects of a standard wish spell, he has to rest for a period of time. That's why AR is only used for destroying your SR (assuming you somehow get an SR of 43+), after that he will continue with his spellslots (expect two spells per round and expect them to be loaden with metamagic from his slots up to level 15) Anyways, I'm hoping that somehow Arturius' (the one who has Pelor's blood in him) ability to block deific senses can be expanded so when my character comes up with a plan Vecna won't know about it. Of course he will discover your plans the moment you set a foot into his divine realm (divine senses + Know Secrets SDA), but at least that makes him discover you only at the moment your assault starts and not already much earlier. I'll use craft contingent spell to revivify anyone who is killed inthe party, Which certainly will be among the first of your protections that Vecna will be dispelling. I'll use all the spells I can on summon dragon ally spells to summon gold dragons (since his massive SR doesn't apply against breath weapons), Of course that's assuming that Vecna would face you "naked". The deities, as presented in DDG, only wear a couple of items at most. Yet they're leve 40+ characters, thus having access to millions of GP worth of equipment (even if you only threat them as ordinary characters, being deities they should have acces to a multiple of the standard wealth for their level). For a deity of magic and secrets, a few artifacts are not unreasonable. Better plan for the case that he will be immune to the breath weapons (by defensive spells or items) and that he will simply banish your summoned creatures. our army will fight his army and when we go up against him, Normally a level 20 party should simply not be able to muster an army that could hope to match the defending forces of a divine realm. I'lll MDJ him at my first oppportunity to at least knock out his Bracers of armor +10 so he can be hit easier. Like I said above: If he only wears his bracers, your DM is generous. Even then: He automatically makes any Will save of DC 45 or less. On average you should expect him to make any will save of DC 54 or less.
Gadren 03-23-07, 07:11 PM	That's why AR is only used for destroying your SR (assuming you somehow get an SR of 43+), after that he will continue with his spellslots (expect two spells per round and expect them to be loaden with metamagic from his slots up to level 15) I never really said I was planning on using SR against him, that was someone else's idea. Hmmm, I'm interested about him enhancing his slots up to 15, what ability is he using to do that? Of course he will discover your plans the moment you set a foot into his divine realm (divine senses + Know Secrets SDA), but at least that makes him discover you only at the moment your assault starts and not already much earlier. I'm hoping actually that we can lure him to the prime material plane when we attack his dread fortress thingy on the prime. And if he doesn't come, gravy. The main problem is that his horriblle creatures of the night just keep coming through there and it is somehow blotting out the sun. Which certainly will be among the first of your protections that Vecna will be dispelling. ****. Got me there. Of course that's assuming that Vecna would face you "naked". The deities, as presented in DDG, only wear a couple of items at most. Yet they're leve 40+ characters, thus having access to millions of GP worth of equipment (even if you only threat them as ordinary characters, being deities they should have acces to a multiple of the standard wealth for their level). For a deity of magic and secrets, a few artifacts are not unreasonable. Yeah, but MDJ will destroy all those objects except the artifacts. Better plan for the case that he will be immune to the breath weapons (by defensive spells or items) and that he will simply banish your summoned creatures. Well, luckily Dragon Ally is a calling spell and not a summoning one, so at least they won't be banished. Probably just mecrilessly destroyed. Normally a level 20 party should simply not be able to muster an army that could hope to match the defending forces of a divine realm. Well, the entire world is being f-ed by him, and we have the golden prohpecy child on our side, so I think we can rally a bit more than the average level 20 party to the cause. Like I said above: If he only wears his bracers, your DM is generous. Even then: He automatically makes any Will save of DC 45 or less. On average you should expect him to make any will save of DC 54 or less. MDJ doesn't allow him a save.
Mirtek 03-23-07, 07:21 PM	I never really said I was planning on using SR against him, that was someone else's idea. Hmmm, I'm interested about him enhancing his slots up to 15, what ability is he using to do that? Divine Spellcasting SDA He was wizard slots up to 16th level and priest slots up to 12th level. Thx to his Automatic Metamagic SDA all of his spells can be cast as quickened spells without requiring a higher slot. So he can load his higher slots with extended, maximized, ... spells without needing to reserce a +4 increase to quicken a spell. Yeah, but MDJ will destroy all those objects except the artifacts. Only if Vecna will fail his will save. Can your 20th level caster force a DC 46 will save (and 46 is still the DC he will succedd with 95% chance) MDJ doesn't allow him a save. SRD: ... each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher.
Gadren 03-23-07, 08:23 PM	Divine Spellcasting SDA He was wizard slots up to 16th level and priest slots up to 12th level. Thx to his Automatic Metamagic SDA all of his spells can be cast as quickened spells without requiring a higher slot. So he can load his higher slots with extended, maximized, ... spells without needing to reserce a +4 increase to quicken a spell. Only if Vecna will fail his will save. Can your 20th level caster force a DC 46 will save (and 46 is still the DC he will succedd with 95% chance) SRD: ... each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher. Hmmm, you're right on all pts. This requires further planning. Maybe I should just try and convince the wizards colllege to make hundreds of radiant spheres (MIC) and arm the strongest part of the army with it, and they can all fire them at him since it is a touch attack that bypasses SR.... Meanwhile, however, I shall try to formulate a plan with a better chance for success. I must thankyou, Mirtek, for you have been most helpful in determining the best strategy to defeat him, even though you are certain he can't be defeated. (Or, actually *because* you are certain he can't be defeated.)
Zalakhiel 03-24-07, 02:16 AM	Now that I remembered something, Vecna`s realm is IN the Material Plane, you don`t have to travel to other planes. Also, Vecna`s Know Secrets SDA requires a Will save of (10+DvR+Cha modifier) DC to work. Failure makes the saving creature immune to this effect for one day. If your Will saves are around +25 then you have little to worry about it. Oh, and he can affect up to one creature per DvR per day. His DvR is 10. He can draw secrets from 10 people per day. So the one who develops the "secret plan" you will be using, will also be the one with the highest Will save. He can then share parts of it with the other members of your party (each will get to know a different part of the plan). Thus, even if you fail to save, he will know only a small part of the plan (unless the party member mentioned above fails his Will save against a DC of 30 tops). So go ahead and think it over, ok? :D
Angelflesh 03-24-07, 03:26 AM	What kind of stupid PCs would agree to knowing only bits and pieces of the plan while only one of them knows all of it. PC1: Ok, i know the plan. I made it up by myself, because if we did it together Vecna would find it out too easily. Because i can't let you guys in on the whole plan, i have no one to verify with me that it will work, but we can just wing it. PC2: How do we know what the plan is when it's time to put it into action? PC1: ....You don't i guess. PC2: Maybe you're next plan should be to tell us what the plan is. PC3: Yeah, idiot.
Zalakhiel 03-24-07, 04:17 AM	Guess that was not a good idea after all... :hides: Anyway, you get the point, and that is that if your saves are good enough, no Vecna-peeking-in-my-mind anymore. Besides, working with a Greater deity will be quite safe, since they always recieve a 20 on saves. I don`t know, it`s just a boon you might want to consider, especially if you seek Pelor`s advice.
Gadren 03-24-07, 06:29 PM	What kind of stupid PCs would agree to knowing only bits and pieces of the plan while only one of them knows all of it. PC1: Ok, i know the plan. I made it up by myself, because if we did it together Vecna would find it out too easily. Because i can't let you guys in on the whole plan, i have no one to verify with me that it will work, but we can just wing it. PC2: How do we know what the plan is when it's time to put it into action? PC1: ....You don't i guess. PC2: Maybe you're next plan should be to tell us what the plan is. PC3: Yeah, idiot. Actually, much to the chagrin of my companions, I tend to not share the whole plan on many occasions. I often just tell them where to be and what to do, and to "trust me on this one. Have I ever let you down before?"
Angelflesh 03-24-07, 07:11 PM	That's usually not a problem, but i don't believe for a second than my team leader knows how to take on a deity. I'm not walking in their blind.
Khael 03-24-07, 07:17 PM	Of course though, it is very likely Vecna will know this fact. After all, unless you let everyone know, no-one but you knows the plan...oh dear. Then of course one of his agents might just have 8-9th level spells. Mindrape, and its ilk come to mind (Basically, they can take a poke in the victims head and look thought all his memories/change a few. The resultant sanity of the victim is a choice of the caster. Somehow I think all it takes is one such spell, to know who to target with a certain SDA.) I personally would assume this: He knows if you are sleeping, he knows if you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good..., so stop caring. It'll if anything throw him for a loop - What *********** mortal, knowing he's about to face me still, walks up here and delivers an ultimatum. To MY face?!? Just go with the plan, but make it open enough it doesn't matter one shot, if Vecna knows. Then all you need to worry about is survival (Lets be honest, thats the major one in the first place.), and who can field the better army etc..
Mirtek 03-24-07, 08:18 PM	Also don't forge that Vecna has an Int of 43. Any possible way the party can find to hurt him: Vecna has already thought about and made part of his own plan. I don't really think that a level 20 party can even cause enough concern for Vecna to appear personally. He will just send a level 30 party to stop them. If he decides to dirty his own hands in the fighting, he will arrive prepared, prepared beyond your wildest nightmares. Like incorpereal inside a personal anti magic field and still flinging spells at corpereal targets
Khael 03-25-07, 07:32 AM	I suspect actually we're(or at least many of us) all are looking at this the wrong way... Clearly a D&D game is made so the players can pull though. A DvR (0?) god-child is with the party. Vecna therefore is likely going down by deux ex machina. So Gadren you'll probably never have to face him, this god-child will, you'll likely just have to help buff him up a bit though out the campaign, and be facing the archpriest of vecna or similar as BBEG with hordes of cultists/undead, and of course search for the god-child's dragonstone (or whatever). Dragonstone by the way is simply used as a placeholder here, as a throwback to fire emblem:sacred stones, where the world's beset by demonic monsters and the most powerful weapon vs them... is a small dragon-girl who halfway though you have to find the weapon for. A weapon that is basically a nuke versus the monsters. The principle is the same, but I'm gonig to guess instead of a dragonstone, it's a fragment of power. Maybe pelor is intended to be destroyed by vecna, and his splintered power will be cast across the world for the god-child to found. Of course vecna's cultist will be searching as well and... You'll be essentially playing D&D with a computer game/high fantasy storyline. It's about the only answer I can think of for how gods can be full generic D&D gods and Vecna can still go down without rolling an auto-one and relying on magic-missile as his only spell.
Mirtek 03-25-07, 07:38 AM	Clearly a D&D game is made so the players can pull though. In a reasonable bandwidth. 8th level characters are not made to slay the great red wyrm and 20th level characters are not made to slay a lesser deity like Vecna. A DvR (0?) god-child is with the party. Vecna therefore is likely going down by deux ex machina. So Gadren you'll probably never have to face him, this god-child will, you'll likely just have to help buff him up a bit though out the campaign, and be facing the archpriest of vecna or similar as BBEG with hordes of cultists/undead, and of course search for the god-child's dragonstone (or whatever). Dragonstone by the way is simply used as a placeholder here, as a throwback to fire emblem:sacred stones, where the world's beset by demonic monsters and the most powerful weapon vs them... is a small dragon-girl who halfway though you have to find the weapon for. A weapon that is basically a nuke versus the monsters. The principle is the same. That could be a way to resolve such a campaign.
Khael 03-25-07, 07:45 AM	In a reasonable bandwidth. 8th level characters are not made to slay the great red wyrm and 20th level characters are not made to slay a lesser deity like Vecna. I meant in the ultimate sense. Of course no 8th level party shuold be able to do any of that. But any campaign is technically intended for the party to win, therefore there is a way. The point is however, nothing said the party has to be able to beat vecna themselves, to pull though.