Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bloodsoul 10-28-07, 11:00 AM	Granted, the Deities in Deities and Demigods are fairly weak, but SR was beaten, spell DC was high enough to to make them Crit to survive, and most would die if they made their saves, anyway. How would one rule the outcome of such an event? :shifty:
DyloniusFunk 10-28-07, 12:56 PM	Granted, the Deities in Deities and Demigods are fairly weak, but SR was beaten, spell DC was high enough to to make them Crit to survive, and most would die if they made their saves, anyway. How would one rule the outcome of such an event? :shifty: Are you the player in this event, or the DM? Or is this just a hypothetical question?
awaken_D_M_golem 10-28-07, 03:17 PM	Portfolio Sense Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event. Umm ... the greatest deity of said pantheon, must not have been a Greater Deity.
Amon_V 10-29-07, 01:54 AM	Ah...the timesense constraint. Seeing into the future is very powerful, this is true. But the ability to jump into the future (Via Time Hop), and the variable temporal traits of some of the planes (looking at far realm, for one) means that getting 20 weeks in the future isn't impossible either. Greater Deity gets a single round of warning, and then combat is joined. This is assuming, of course, that the means to kill a greater deity was not approved by a low ranking overdeity. I would not rule it out as flatly impossible, but I would like to learn more about how it happened.
Habbalah 10-29-07, 02:34 AM	Are you the player in this event, or the DM? Or is this just a hypothetical question? Is this one of those lazy "I'm the dm so I will" it so arguements?
Ornum 10-29-07, 10:02 AM	Umm ... the greatest deity of said pantheon, must not have been a Greater Deity. The "one week into the future" thing is easily ignorable. I know I don't use it. For me and my campaign, only one god has that ability. It wouldn't make sense for the other greater gods to seek him out for predictions of the future if all of them could do it. Besides, two greater gods fighting each other would get real old, real quick. They would basically stand around telling each other how they would counter each other's actions instead of any actual battle. It would look like the scene at the end of Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey.
The_Cheeseman 10-29-07, 01:44 PM	If a DM allowed one of his players to slaughter 3 pantheons by himself, then I can only image that the effects of this act would be handled poorly, simply based on the way the game seems to already have been handled. Secondly, you cannot avoid the foreknowledge of a greater deity's portfolio sense simply by hanging around on the Farplane or using time hop. If you attack a deity whose portfolio sense would register that attack (and I think most deity's portfolio sense would detect their own possible demise) they know weeks in advance that you're going to do it. Even if you leap forward a year before executing the attack, they knew 16-20 weeks before the attack occurs that you were in another time stream and planning to attack them. Basically, you'd pop back into existence in front of a fully prepared deity who has been waiting for you to appear for 16-20 weeks. In the case of the two most prominent D&D pantheons, Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, any character who planned to off a god via magic would be easily countered by either Boccob or Mystra, both of whom know in advance whenever a spell is cast. Mystra can even cut-off the caster's magical power, depriving even deities of their access to the Weave. Then, of course, you have the issues of divine salient abilities like Alter Reality and Rejuvenation. The former allows the deity to have any spell effect ever devised upon their person constantly, without possibility of dispelling. The latter makes it literally impossible to kill the deity, because they always rejuvenate. Also, keep in mind that many of the abilities and resistances of a deity do not function against deities of higher rank. If the deicidal character is only rank 10, then roughly half the pantheon can ignore his divine immunities, and are probably unaffected by many of his powers. This is also ignoring the fact that a fight with a deity is never going to be one-on-one. Deities have thousands or even millions of devoted worshipers, and many of them are powerful beings in their own right. Deities within a pantheon also have intricate alliances, and other deities are not going to stand around looking dumb while somebody kills them one-by-one. Even if two deities are enemies, they probably still have vested interest in the continuing existence of the other, if for no other reason than to distract other enemies. Finally, the sudden disappearance of all the deities in a pantheon would cause unimaginable chaos and discord. When Lolth temporarily withdrew her power, it caused disruptions that echoed throughout the underdark, and she is only an intermediate deity! Just look at how much strife was brought about by the Time of Troubles, then imagine what it would be like if ALL the deities were gone, with no replacements. When it comes down to it, this is not a situation that warrants enough examination to bother gathering opinions from the boards. Any DM who allowed a situation like this to occur had better have planned for it long in advance and already know the outcome, or they obviously screwed the pooch. From this point on, the DM in question is going to be hard-pressed to maintain a campaign world that fits cleanly with the D&D rules without large amounts of DM-fiat, and if the character or NPC that set this precedent is still in-play, they might as well give up and start over.
Amon_V 10-29-07, 03:18 PM	First of all, let me begin by saying that I believe that you are right Cheeseman--A lesser deity killing three pantheons is unbelievable and I don't think it should have happened. That said, I'm going to give this another try to see how this could have happened. Epic Magic might be able to get something strong enough to beat a Deity's Portfolio Sense (However, this means that the God of Magic in a Pantheon is going to know this and have a plan for that) Psionics might be the weak link here--the psionic deities are rather weak (Saridor & Zuoken), and if Psionics are different is a campaign choice, Boccob's got very little on this alternative method. Rejuvenation isn't much of a problem. If you kill the deity, you need to ensure that he loses divine ranks (possibly to you) while he's dead. One easy way to do this is to kill of his follower base and dishearten them while he's reforming. If he loses too many Divine Ranks, he's not coming back. Even if he does, the second matchup will be heavily in the favor of the deicider. Alter Self means the deity basically gets to drop Wishes where ever he feels like it. But at Level 27 + 10 DR, that's not such a big deal. Such, its the king of combos, but being able to emulate any 8th level or lower spell isn't game over. Life and Death is going to be a lot harder to deal with. You would have to shapechange into a construct to beat the death effects. Upside: You can repair yourself with arcane magic--and with custom magic effects, you can repair yourself every round with Repair Critical damage each round. That said, the best way to do this would be power creep. If you could simply bushwack DR 1s until you got more divine ranks and eventually aimed higher, that might work if you can Out-DR the top dude. Still, if anyone capable bothered to craft the deities (by this, I mean, NOT THE DEFAULT) so that didn't horribly suck, I'd say you had no chances.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-30-07, 03:58 PM	The "one week into the future" thing is easily ignorable. I'll add some more blue. senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. The multiplier would be between 16 and 20. I know I don't use it. houserule For me and my campaign, only one god has that ability. houserule Hey, you can do whatever you want to do in your home campaign. If you're into role-playing ... It's not hard to imagine that it just seems you've "slaughtered" three pantheons ... and they are plotting their revenge, straight out of the SRD. Have fun.
Ornum 10-30-07, 06:30 PM	Of course they are house rules. But if you want to get technical, then not every greater deity could see their death approaching. The rules you quote specifically state that it only applies to the god's portfolio (which is why it is referred to as "Porfolio Sense"). So unless the god of death happened to be a greater deity, then seeing their future death wouldn't be an issue.
The_Cheeseman 10-31-07, 12:00 AM	Personally, I'd be inclined to include the death of a greater deity as a major event related to that deity's portfolio. After all, if the god of yaks were to die, then their portfolio would either change hands or cease to be. Either way it's a big change to anybody who worships yaks, and has a major influence on the future of yak-ism.
locustechpriest 11-01-07, 09:51 PM	The portfolio sense does not tell the deity who is coming after it. That requires further research. It also does not give direct sensory input, so it isn't going to show the sword strokes that its enemy is going to make. It really isn't all that overpowered. Heck, the only indication that it is a fight for said deity's life is the fact that it happens in its divine realm! I have only a hazy understanding of how this is happening, still. So your level 29 Lesser godslayer person is or has had a heyday with three pantheons? It's pretty much guaranteed that those gods will rejuvinate, or a new god will be born, unless your godslayer is trying to absorb every portfolio (read "suicide"). I don't know of cannon, but one god can only command so much power. Godslayer isn't going to get all portfolios. Then there is the chance that the stray portfolios just fall off the face of the multiverse. I find it difficult to imagine. If someone is revering a portfolio, a god should rise or spontaneously form...
Mirtek 11-04-07, 03:05 PM	Seeing into the future is very powerful, this is true. But the ability to jump into the future (Via Time Hop), and the variable temporal traits of some of the planes (looking at far realm, for one) means that getting 20 weeks in the future isn't impossible either. Greater Deity gets a single round of warning, and then combat is joined. No, the deity always get's 20 weeks (in the time of the plane they're on). If you jump 19 weeks into to future to attack her, the deity already new last week that you're going to attack her in 20 weeks. If you attack from a timeless plane, the deity knew 20 weeks in advance that today an attacker will arrive from a timeless plane. Of course they are house rules. But if you want to get technical, then not every greater deity could see their death approaching. The rules you quote specifically state that it only applies to the god's portfolio (which is why it is referred to as "Porfolio Sense"). So unless the god of death happened to be a greater deity, then seeing their future death wouldn't be an issue. The death of the current owner of a portfolio is the single most important thing that could affect a portfolio. Every greater deity will sense this of herself.
setekh 11-05-07, 11:49 AM	I don't see it happening... Make a greater deity of war, slap annihilating strike on him and then try and survive the smackdown from that.
ff6shadow 11-05-07, 01:26 PM	Really, he didn't ask why it couldn't happen. He asked what would happen, assuming a theoretical situation. I'd say it would be anarchy. Huge power bases just suddenly losing access to the source of there power. Those powers remaining (other pantheons, achfiends, ect) would likely move in an try to fill the vaccume. Any over diety is probably going to try and refill the ranks, meaning a bunch of mortals suddenly finding themselves gods. Additionally, if it was a single effect that destroyed that many gods, the power release invovled could rip the fabric of reality, opening a direct passage to the far realm. Which of course brings in even more threats. This would be my plan. Basically a complete and total realignment of the campaign.
Rania 11-05-07, 03:04 PM	Really, he didn't ask why it couldn't happen. He asked what would happen, assuming a theoretical situation. I'd say it would be anarchy. Huge power bases just suddenly losing access to the source of there power. Those powers remaining (other pantheons, achfiends, etc) would likely move in an try to fill the vacuum. Any over deity is probably going to try and refill the ranks, meaning a bunch of mortals suddenly finding themselves gods. Additionally, if it was a single effect that destroyed that many gods, the power release involved could rip the fabric of reality, opening a direct passage to the far realm. Which of course brings in even more threats. This would be my plan. Basically a complete and total realignment of the campaign.Yay chaos!
setekh 11-05-07, 03:16 PM	Really, he didn't ask why it couldn't happen. He asked what would happen, assuming a theoretical situation. Well he could theoretically ask what would happen if Nerull suddenly got chummy with Vecna, they became L/G Monks and made an army of bunny skeletons in white robes. Just because it could Theoretically happen doesn't mean it would ever make sense if it did.
Kain_Darkwind 11-05-07, 10:17 PM	Well he could theoretically ask what would happen if Nerull suddenly got chummy with Vecna, they became L/G Monks and made an army of bunny skeletons in white robes. Just because it could Theoretically happen doesn't mean it would ever make sense if it did. Then you are clearly unable to help him out, being incapable of answering the question. It's ok to fail some of the time. Just try not to be a failure in all the other threads you respond to and you'll do fine. I think the remaining gods (assuming there are any) would become increasingly paranoid. Cosmic entities with an interest in the world (such as demon lords and arch devils) would be able to step up their involvement, possibly leading to things like the Blood War spilling over onto the Prime, or perhaps the angels would also be free to intervene as they saw fit, with no divine beings getting in their way. Depending on whether you Highlander your gods or not, the deity who killed them all might gain supreme power and become a greater (or maybe even over) god of the world. I suspect cults would spring up around him, each claiming that they knew the true path to the god. With only one source of divine power, clerics would be willing to do quite a bit to prove that their version of the faith was the right one. Possibly some of the old churches might hold out, but unless they were good at going underground and surviving without divine spells, they'll soon be forgotten or gone along with their dead gods.
locustechpriest 11-06-07, 05:54 PM	I would say he definately does not become an overgod. I just started reading the Avatar series, and it becomes immediately obvious that (in the Forgotten Realms setting, at least) the other deities don't hold a candle to Ao... combined. Just my two coppers. ;)
Axiomatic_vampire 11-07-07, 09:32 PM	Then you are clearly unable to help him out, being incapable of answering the question. It's ok to fail some of the time. Just try not to be a failure in all the other threads you respond to and you'll do fine. No, Setekh is right. It's a nonsensical event that depends on either horrid DM blunders, or a game so house-ruled that it doesn't have enough in common with 3.5 D&D to be relevant on these boards, and it's perfectly reasonable to say so. Being filled with self-righteous vitriolic internet tough-guyism doesn't make you right, but don't worry, just try not to be such an unapologetic windbag in other threads, and you'll do fine.
Kain_Darkwind 11-07-07, 11:27 PM	No, Setekh is right. It's a nonsensical event that depends on either horrid DM blunders, or a game so house-ruled that it doesn't have enough in common with 3.5 D&D to be relevant on these boards, and it's perfectly reasonable to say so. Being filled with self-righteous vitriolic internet tough-guyism doesn't make you right, but don't worry, just try not to be such an unapologetic windbag in other threads, and you'll do fine. Oh, did I hurt your tender little feelings? While you're standing up there on the soapbox, soaking it in your tears, keep in mind that the OP didn't ask for your opinion on whether or not his game met your elite standards for propriety and internal consistency. He asked for what one thought would happen after the events occurred. So the only self righteousness on this thread is from you and your crowd, trying to suggest to the OP that he isn't allowed to do something in his own game. Don't worry about your inability to comprehend basic English though. There are plenty of people all over the internet just like you. Stiffen that upper lip and drive on.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-07-07, 11:38 PM	Consider the phrase "logical frame of reference". If there isn't one, you can't make any sort of useful predictions. It's like asking "if the impossible were possible, what could possibly happen?" That is, in essence, the question. That doesn't mean the OP can't houserule it any way he wants. It means that without knowing anything about the system that allowed the event, there's no (here it comes again) logical frame of reference. Now, I'm gonna go eat bonbons until my emotions recover from the beating they just took. Maybe cry a little.
Amon_V 11-08-07, 04:58 AM	Well, the first question that needs to asked about 'future sight' is how reliable it is. If we assume, at face value, that free will doesn't exist, then a deities response to the "attack warning" is going to be perfected against the attack. Or, for example, the Greater Deity might choose to immediately attack the potential attacker for 'precrime'. Problem: This leads to a logical paradox. If the Deity knows that it will be attacked in 20 weeks, but instead decides to kill the attacking deity, what happened 20 weeks in the future? And if there is no warning, the attack will happen, resulting in a logical breach. On the grounds that a 'set reality' leads to hopeless paradoxes that would literally break temporal elements, I choose to discard it. I do not feel timesense can work in this fashion. Therefore, the Greater Deities Timesense can not be considered fully reliable. On these grounds, it's entirely possible that the Greater Deity misjudges the situation and is caught off guard. [The second Greater Deity, however, will take the risk seriously] In addition, one element left completely silent is the power of Epic Magic. The Epic Level Handbook boldly declares that "Even deities fear the power of Epic Spellcasting" and it might be an opening for an something that might even work against a deity. While anything above a demigod with Magic in their portfolio would know about it, we don't know the layout of the pantheons crushed in this fashion. While I agree that this should never happen, I find myself intrigued by the possibilities of how this could have happened. My first thought is that the Deity increased in Divine Rank throughout the entire process. Once he hit 21 Divine Ranks, the Deities and Demigods books hand him Pun-Puns "I Win" ability and tell him to go home.
Kain_Darkwind 11-08-07, 03:12 PM	Consider the phrase "logical frame of reference". If there isn't one, you can't make any sort of useful predictions. It's like asking "if the impossible were possible, what could possibly happen?" That is, in essence, the question. You were golden until that last sentence. The OP is asking a simple question regarding the death of more powerful gods by an usurper. Not at all problematic to the mind with the slightest shred of imagination. Gods have died before and they'll die again. They've even been killed in single combat. Video games, movies, comics and even DnD have all shown us this. Some gods, seeing their death in the future, accept this as fate and in Obi-Wan fashion, put down both their sword and struggle. Raislin Majere killed an entire pantheon, of at least 3 greater gods and he wasn't even a DvR 10 being to let him do so. So you can't play the 'it's impossible' card. Well, you can, but it makes you a filthy liar or an unimaginative putz. Your choice, of course. That doesn't mean the OP can't houserule it any way he wants. It means that without knowing anything about the system that allowed the event, there's no (here it comes again) logical frame of reference. As stated, that isn't the case. What is the case is that the people who don't like greater gods dying are throwing a pout fest and calling it impossible. Which even if it were so, doesn't answer the question, which begs the question what they're doing on the thread in the first place. Now, I'm gonna go eat bonbons until my emotions recover from the beating they just took. Maybe cry a little. You just let it all out. I'm sure your mommy still wuvs you.
vegetalss4 11-12-07, 04:16 AM	first dont flame. second heres how the deities migth not have known. imagine that Pun Pun exist. he desides that it could be fun to know what would happen, and therefor blocks the gods timesense
Amon_V 11-12-07, 04:59 AM	@Pun-Pun. The Pun-Pun situation is a clear abuse of game mechanics. While it offers a plausible method to gaining this degree of power and a route to avoid deities future sense, the OP should at least indicate that this kind of system breach is the cause. I've assumed it was a legitimate cause, not a WotC screwed up and look what was legal cause.
Legdiwena 11-15-07, 07:15 PM	I would say he definately does not become an overgod. I just started reading the Avatar series, and it becomes immediately obvious that (in the Forgotten Realms setting, at least) the other deities don't hold a candle to Ao... combined. Just my two coppers. ;) Not only could he kill them, he can (and did) strip every single one of them (except Helm) of their immortality and banished them to the Prime. Going from godhood to mere mortal status, now that's gotta hurt.
Bloodsoul 11-21-07, 09:23 PM	Wow, I feel like a putz. I've been avoiding this topic like the plague after reading the first few posts, and now since it's been awhile since the event happened.. So, okay. What pretty much happend was that after studying the stats of the pantheons in Deities and Demigods I figured it wouldn't be too difficult to overcome SR/saves using the infamous Time Stop/Delayed Blast Fireball trick. Using a high Charisma stat brought on by the deific ability array and permanating Domain powers with Alter Reality, the Lesser Deity in questino had just enough of a caster check (with Feats) to take down one of the Intermediate Deities of the Greek Pantheon (Hephaestus, I believe). Absorbing his power, the next logical target was Hades who's own SR/saves were just as bad, and from the Taiia was the finishing touch. With Rank 20 Greater Deity status accomplished, the remaining deities of the pantheons (Greek, Egyptian, and Norse) were taken out not for their actual divine spark but simply for experience. At first I thought, "hey, neat, as long as I get first turn in initiative I can (barely) beat their SR and their saves aren't high enough to fully beat her spell DCs." Plus, considering that it was the classical pantheons being targeted, it seemed somewhat poetic to kill off the old-world gods in the wake of an emerging new one. Likewise, had some of the deities scored first initiative instead, I was honestly scared out of my wits about suffering the same fate as they; two interchanging DMs were witness that day, although the look on the face of one was probably enough to tell me I was going a wee bit over my head here. Of course, like usual, I slipped up and had forgotten about that whole future sense thing, and hadn't even taken godly realms into account (more like picturing the whole thing as some cheap game of Mortal Kombat), hence why I focused on bare character stats first before anything else. This question was initially asked because of the nature of the events, although since then the Lesser Deity has settled in as a Rank 20 Greater Deity at level 60 (a coincidence how that turned out). That deity's practically been removed from the game, aside from a Cleric of her's I'm playing as and an actual campaign one of the DMs wants centered around her... okay, guess that's not really removed, but with her rise to power she's basically been demoted to NPC status. I do have to admit that seeing the first few posts put a huge not in my stomach, though the reason for everything wasn't so much to create a powerful character, just a fairly well-made god; which might be the same thing, depending on how you look at it. In hindsight, I should've just spoken with one of the DMs and asked for some alternative to achieve a similar powerbase for the character (such as the above mentioned Cleric trying to gain worshippers as is happening now), but after all that I feel sort of... empty?
teamfireyleader 11-26-07, 01:55 PM	May i try and give the impossibility theorie a try? Ok a god of war tries to kill all others on his pantheon. He can tell what happens in the fight (his portfolio so he knows when each strike is dealt) , he wins over say a healing god, he absorbs that gods portfolio, he kills more gods, becoming more and more split over his portfolios, and is destroyed and his portfolios go back and are handled by new gods playing the same roles, so i think that one could only kill one pantheon and even then you'd just be destroyed, so no god is stupid enough to do that.:P
Bloodsoul 11-26-07, 04:23 PM	True.. atleast no god that's been at it for eternity. I can't help but think that, honestly, an ascended mortal who wasn't terribly bright while mortal probably wouldn't be terribly bright as a god to start off, and all that power going to their head.. infallibility properly doesn't happen till later. >.>
locustechpriest 11-26-07, 08:43 PM	Ok a god of war tries to kill all others on his pantheon. He can tell what happens in the fight (his portfolio so he knows when each strike is dealt) I think it's important to understand the basic concepts before you launch into theories. For example, the text in parenteses is completely false. Portfolio sense only tells a god the time and location of a major event. Allow a quote? When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. Your definition of an "event" would have to be utterly absurd for it to include the swinging of a sword or the casting of an offensive spell. At that point, I'm not sure that I can reason with you, but I will assume my task is not in vain, for the moment. he kills more gods, becoming more and more split over his portfolios, and is destroyed and his portfolios go back and are handled by new gods playing the same roles What is this about "becoming split over his portfolios?" I seem to recal a certain mortal-turned-god who took up several portfolios and suffered no notable negative effects... well, nothing new, at any rate. What was his portfolio? Lies, the Dead, Murder, Strife and Tyrany. Fully the powers of four gods, and I have yet to finish the books. What makes you think that having his attention "split" between several aspects of human existance would weaken this god? Deities have the innate capacity to listen to the prayers of their worshipers... all of them. They also attend to issues that might threaten their portfolios. All of this is accomplished by a neigh unshakable, multi-faceted mind. Anyway, this has escaped me and is now in the category of undenyable rant. Answer to a few of my accusations so I don't feel so much like a jerk. (Although, I wouldn't complain if you don't.)