Post/Author/DateTime	Post
beepaladin 12-02-07, 02:22 AM	((I've been debating whether this should go to CD or here, I decided on here. ^^; )) Short story: What sort of justification does a paladin of a LN deity have for upholding the good part of a LG alignment? Is it a personal compassion, or some greater tenet of their god? Long story: My favorite character, and one I'm currently playing is a paladin of St. Cuthbert. I had played her once before in a game that never got off the ground, where she was very much more on the LN side of LG... Now I'm running in a group in Shackled City, but this time, perhaps due to the NPC mentor who is training my paladin (Jenya Urikas for people familiar with the module), I can see my character as leaning a lot more to the good side of LG then the LN side. And I like that, taking more the compassionate side of things, smiling at children (even if they are chaotic), rescuing orphans, worrying about other party members and townsfolk as well as her orders and the mission. It really seems a lot more "paladinly" for what it's worth, and makes her more reflective of her charisma score and ranks in skills like diplomacy. (And I think more likeable to the party members ^^; ) But I worry how much a pechant for good works in with St. Cuthbert's dogma. The problem: So Dieties and Demigods puts St. Cuthbert at LN (with LG tendencies), saying he clearly prefers good over evil, but mostly because good is more likely to be law-abiding. He's more concerned with law and order. Cuthbert's wikipedia article mentions that he was originally LG with LN tendencies and that Dragon 358 pushed him back to LG with LN tendencies, but alas, it's not up as a pdf yet, so I have no clue what this article says apart from that line. :raincloud: But what it looks like: St. Cuthbert is opposed to evil, and has had a long history of vacillating between LG and LN, but I'm not sure how much "opposed to evil" corresponds to "good." It seems a lot more that he's just pro-Law, pro-good in as much as good promotes law. A quick look at his portfolio (retribution, zeal, wisdom, and discipline) and his domains (destruction, domination, protection, law and strength) doesn't really scream good in the sense that, say, Pelor's domains do. But clearly, the Church of St. Cuthbert can have a benevolent presence in the world; there's no shortage of LG clerics and paladins of him. And there's the section of the Billets referenced in the wikipedia article who are sort of the defensive arm of the Church. It's just I can't make sense doctrinally where these tenets and leanings towards LG may come from. Or how much they're actually good, so much as lawful and protective. I'll have to track down that issue of Dragon in non-electronic form, I ordered it, but I would appreciate any input anyone else had? :) Thanks for reading this stuff <3. Thoughts?
JulesCARV 12-02-07, 03:02 AM	I think you're getting too hung up on alignment, really. You follow St. Cuthbert for whatever reason you do. Maybe your parents were St. Cuthbert worshippers and you picked it up from them. Maybe you started going to a temple of St. Cuthbert because you were new in some town and didn't have many contacts and wanted to get involved with some sort of social group and it was the only temple in your town. Maybe you had a boyfriend who was a St Cuthbert follower and he persuaded you that St. Cuthbert rocked. Maybe you had a dream or vision of St. Cuthbert calling you. I dunno. And you act how you act for whatever reason you do. Maybe you help children because you're just a nice gal with a sentimental soft spot for kids. Or maybe you rescue orphans because you read some impassioned pamphlet from an orphan advocate, and then went to a meeting of orphan advocates and met with the author, and it eventually changed your life and you developed a personal devotion to helping them. Again, it depends on your character. There's nothing that St. Cuthbert has against compassion, goodness, etc. You may not exactly be a typical Cuthbertine, but you're hardly going to stick out like a sore thumb for being good or nice either. In short, worship your deity, play your character, and don't worry too much about alignment. I mean, it's not as if you're an LG paladin who's worshipping Erythnul or anything really weird like that. I'm sorry if you were looking for some sort of deeper reconciliation between your character and your deity. I don't know how helpful my post was; personally, though, I find that these issues are often clarified if you step back from the abstraction and generality of alignment and think about specific motivations for one's actions.
beepaladin 12-02-07, 03:20 AM	Maybe so. And part of that was kind of my feeling on it. I mean, a paladin mechanicswise is pretty tied to alignment. I was just kind of worrying that good might overshadow lawful when lawful is more the point of Cuthbert moreso than worrying that good violates in some way the god's calling. I guess I just like her having sort of a doctrinal basis for her actions. Ties things up all nice and neat with a little bow and ribbons--very orderly ribbons.
Tovec 12-02-07, 05:43 PM	I like St. Cuthbert but I agree that I seem to encounter the same problems you do. I find that most people play a paladin of Cuthbert as a stick up the ass must obey the law or I'll kill you type. I don't even think the St. is that way, so I don't think someone who is more good should be. I agree that you are getting too caught up on alignment. Play the character as they should be played. Yes if your character is having philosophical questions about St. Cuthbert maybe go to the temple and ask a priest and maybe get the DM to explain what they think. I have often found that St. Cuthbert is more good then Heironeous it seems. Cuthbert is LN siding LG or LG siding LN means to me that he thinks laws are good, in fact he thinks they are the best thing in existance. He values them highly, he also thinks that evil isn't all that bad, so long as they follow the rules. Good also fall under this category. Being good is nice and all but if you don't follow the rules then he doesn't like that either. It says he favours Goodss over Evils because they have the greater chance of following the law. What I would take away from this is what I said, go ask your DM. Try and figure it out for yourself (as a character) as if you don't know then generally speaking the character is in the dark. Explore what it means, remember that you are a LG, and sworn to serving the greater good but continue to worship St. Cuthbert for whatever reason you can find. Sorry I'm not being too helpful, I'm not in a place where I'm all that clear today.
navar100 12-02-07, 09:07 PM	St Cuthbert likes the orderly life, but he wants you to Choose it. He is not bureaucratic; he is stern. Laws aren't made for the sake of having a law but to serve a genuine Purpose for the common welfare. Follow his tenets, but your life is yours to live. You're in the mortal world, not him. You have to deal with the realities of the world. Make of it as you wish and show the Glory of St Cuthbert while doing it. Good p.r. (pun not intended) never hurts.
Thanael 12-04-07, 09:16 AM	Just don't forget that St. Cuthbert is the god of common sense and wisdom. And carry a big cudgel.
Kain_Darkwind 12-07-07, 01:49 PM	I was told awhile ago that St. Cuthbert used to be Lawful Good with LN tendencies (like Pholtus) and that 3e tossed him onto LN to suit their needs for a core pantheon with a LN god of justice. Which is why Cuthbert seems more good than Pholtus, who seems more Lawful. Even though if you look at their alignments, Cuthbert is LN and Pholtus is LG.
Tovec 12-10-07, 01:10 AM	I was told awhile ago that St. Cuthbert used to be Lawful Good with LN tendencies (like Pholtus) and that 3e tossed him onto LN to suit their needs for a core pantheon with a LN god of justice. Which is why Cuthbert seems more good than Pholtus, who seems more Lawful. Even though if you look at their alignments, Cuthbert is LN and Pholtus is LG. I find it funny when St. Cuthbert comes off as more Good (specifically LG) then Heironeous. I also like the fact the LN is a Saint.
The Ubbergeek 12-10-07, 03:01 PM	Maybe finaly Cuthbert is more pragmatic and realistic, merely...
Tovec 12-15-07, 09:30 PM	Maybe finaly Cuthbert is more pragmatic and realistic, merely... I was looking through the Complete Divine and found a deity from the Greyhawk setting. Something about his description tickled me. Pholtus (Lawful Good) "...represents unyielding law and order,.." "He abhors compromise almost as much as he does chaos." "...rival of St. Cuthbert, whom Pholtus regards as too pragmatic and emotional." I just had to read over it a couple more times. This "Lawful Good" is more Lawful then the Lawful Neutral (St. Cuthbert) and finds that St. Cuthbert is too "emotional?" Seriously?! This guy should be the textbook example of LN and Cuth should replace Heir for LG.
Thanael 12-18-07, 12:10 PM	Both were originally LG(LN) iirc. Before 3E butchered the Greyhawk pantheon. Read the Living Greyhawk Deities pdf (http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/downloads/lg_deities.pdf) for more Greyhawk info on the core gods. (Gee, this link need to be stickied! I post it in every other thread.)
The Ubbergeek 12-18-07, 12:44 PM	Both were originally LG(LN) iirc. Before 3E flavored the Greyhawk pantheon. Fixed for you. :P ;)
Deinos 12-18-07, 08:14 PM	Followers of a deity always think that their god espouses whatever believes THEY personally hold dear. A LG paladin of an LN deity WILL think his god is also LG, and grow very angry if someone else disagrees with him.
ArcTan 12-18-07, 08:32 PM	He'd have to be stupid or self-deluding, because there would be LN and LE deities of his church who were capable of casting [Evil] spells and might even do it in front of him. The way D&D is set up, Clerics *can't* be all that ignorant of how their churches actually work. I'm sure that the well-informed higher-up Clerics of a church of Wee Jas, for instance, are fully aware that Wee Jas is LN, and regard their own personal decision to be LG or LE to be just that -- a personal decision.
ArcTan 12-18-07, 08:34 PM	I was looking through the Complete Divine and found a deity from the Greyhawk setting. Something about his description tickled me. Pholtus (Lawful Good) "...represents unyielding law and order,.." "He abhors compromise almost as much as he does chaos." "...rival of St. Cuthbert, whom Pholtus regards as too pragmatic and emotional." I just had to read over it a couple more times. This "Lawful Good" is more Lawful then the Lawful Neutral (St. Cuthbert) and finds that St. Cuthbert is too "emotional?" Seriously?! This guy should be the textbook example of LN and Cuth should replace Heir for LG. I always thought St. Cuthbert's LN-but-never-LE concept was the idea that he's willing to make compromises or become overly zealous and angry when dealing with Evil rather than retaining perfect peace and composure. Urban Arcana's recasting of the Church of St. Cuthbert as a band of vigilantes trying to take back the streets from drugs and crime seems to fit this idea for me.
Urithair 12-19-07, 11:04 AM	I thought paladins were held to the higher service of Good and Law, above that of dieties. So a paladin of St. Cuthburt would uphold the Good part because of his own personal conviction, not because of his god. It is the same reason a paladin would disobey an evil order from his god, no matter how lawful that order may be.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 12-19-07, 11:44 AM	I thought paladins were held to the higher service of Good and Law, above that of dieties. So a paladin of St. Cuthburt would uphold the Good part because of his own personal conviction, not because of his god. It is the same reason a paladin would disobey an evil order from his god, no matter how lawful that order may be. That's the tricky part. A paladin should make Good and Law his priorities, but the heart of men rarely work that way. The love for his god and its tenets, as the love from his close friends will surely taint his actions. Besides, it is perfect that way, because without such "earthly bounds", every paladin would end up like Miko.;) BTW: St. Cuthbert is a great god. Glad you chose him!
Tovec 12-20-07, 10:16 PM	I always thought St. Cuthbert's LN-but-never-LE concept was the idea that he's willing to make compromises or become overly zealous and angry when dealing with Evil rather than retaining perfect peace and composure. Urban Arcana's recasting of the Church of St. Cuthbert as a band of vigilantes trying to take back the streets from drugs and crime seems to fit this idea for me. I do and don't like the take on vigilantes but I guess its not a bad interpretation of St. Cuthbert. I always liked St. Cuthbert. As to the first, you always thought of St. Cuthbert. as LE? I'm confused.
Kain_Darkwind 12-20-07, 10:26 PM	As to the first, you always thought of St. Cuthbert. as LE? I'm confused. No, Arctan was referring to the 3e take on Cuthbert, who is Lawful Neutral but doesn't tolerate Lawful Evil in his clergy. (Like most Lawful Neutral gods do) As Thanael pointed out though, the reason for this discrepancy was the fact that they took a LG god from Greyhawk and declared him Lawful Neutral.
ArcTan 12-21-07, 01:49 AM	In the prehistory of Fiendish Codex II, St. Cuthbert is named as the only deity of the proto-Lawful Good deities who agrees with Asmodeus that justice cannot exist without punishment, and therefore moves from pure LG to LN(G) (Arcadia rather than Mechanus, in Planescape terms).
Thanael 12-21-07, 03:58 AM	Fixed for you. :P ;) If you call diluted or more bland a flavour...
Thanael 12-21-07, 04:36 AM	In the prehistory of Fiendish Codex II, St. Cuthbert is named as the only deity of the proto-Lawful Good deities who agrees with Asmodeus that justice cannot exist without punishment, and therefore moves from pure LG to LN(G) (Arcadia rather than Mechanus, in Planescape terms). Which of course disregards that Cuthbert is said to be an ascended interloper deity in Greyhawk, and thus probably not around in that early prehistory. But both stories are a myth. So who knows if that is what really happened...
Jorith 12-22-07, 10:42 PM	i sorta see St. Cuthbert as the punisher they both are trying to get justice for those who have been wronged but sometimes might take it too far though i don't see St. Cuthbert taking it anywhere near as far as the punisher would
CryoSilver 12-22-07, 11:10 PM	Why not? He is the GOD of punishment; he embodies it, he is the universal source of all that is punishment. But a mere mortal would outdo him? Why? Because we hate to think that a lawful neutral god might do as much evil as good? Neutral is not Diet Good. I tend to ignore some of the fluff of St Cuthbert, and I see him as the embodiment of lawful neutral: law to the exclusion of all else. If law creates evil, so it does. If law creates good, so it does. But in the end, LAW is all that matters, and justice should be swift, brutal and decisive.
ArcTan 12-22-07, 11:21 PM	That's not really a fair description of St. Cuthbert, who does, after all, lean to Good more than to Evil -- hence his not allowing *any* LE clergy, as opposed to other LN deities like Wee Jas. I see St. Cuthbert more as the personification of the attitude that punishing and ending Evil is a higher priority than nurturing and rewarding Good. Indeed, the kind that thinks there's something romantic and fitting about a hundred Good people giving their lives to stop one Evil person (i.e. the quixotic street-vigilante attitude of the Cuthbert worshippers in the Urban Arcana book). A much more truly morally-Neutral deity is, after all, Wee Jas, who's presented in the book as the patron of a secret society for wealthy grad school attendees who run society -- and that "preserve the status quo -- inevitable death and all that comes with it -- whether it helps or harms people" line is more her line, just like Boccob's similar-but-different "seek truth and knowledge and love it whether it helps or harms people".
Jorith 12-22-07, 11:52 PM	Why not? He is the GOD of punishment; he embodies it, he is the universal source of all that is punishment. But a mere mortal would outdo him? Why? Because we hate to think that a lawful neutral god might do as much evil as good? Neutral is not Diet Good. I tend to ignore some of the fluff of St Cuthbert, and I see him as the embodiment of lawful neutral: law to the exclusion of all else. If law creates evil, so it does. If law creates good, so it does. But in the end, LAW is all that matters, and justice should be swift, brutal and decisive. what i was trying to say was what ArcTan basically said. If he would take it as far as the punisher would then he would except LE clerics because they would be evil but still carrying out the law. St. Cuthbert is the god of retirbution mainly but he and his followers also go around somewhat helping people in other ways then killing those who have wronged them without for the most part recieving anything in return, something I doubt a LE cleric would do because evil people don't generally go around helping people unless they get something in exchange
pigknight 12-23-07, 02:56 PM	While were on the subject of LG Pallies that follow LN gods, what would a Pally of Wee Jas do? And St. Cuthbert Pallys I picture as police officers.
J.Augustus Rose II 12-23-07, 03:38 PM	If he would take it as far as the punisher would then he would except LE clerics I think Judge Dredd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Dredd)would be a better comparison than the Punisher.
Evil DM Mk3 12-23-07, 03:53 PM	This is one of the reason why I like my games where Paladins are chosen by powerful extra-planer forces not gods. Gods are not pure embodiments of Justice, they are sentient creatures with goals and aims that are frequently far more narrow. A nice holy circle of the appropriate outsiders with an ancient mandate works much better I feel.
ArcTan 12-23-07, 06:09 PM	While were on the subject of LG Pallies that follow LN gods, what would a Pally of Wee Jas do? And St. Cuthbert Pallys I picture as police officers. Protect and preserve important knowledge, comfort the dying, attack those who would offend the dignity of the dead or destroy the stability of civilization. It's not a code that *prevents* Paladins. It just doesn't seem like Paladins of Wee Jas are especially likely. Wee Jas isn't overtly Evil, but she's not "pure" LN, really -- she's slightly Evil-leaning in the way St. Cuthbert is strongly Good-leaning (or so I interpret her). Check out the fact that her palace is in Acheron (the plane between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil), for instance.
Jorith 12-24-07, 12:24 PM	I think Judge Dredd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Dredd)would be a better comparison than the Punisher. thanks i didn't think of him
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 12:42 PM	Wee Jas isn't overtly Evil, but she's not "pure" LN, really -- she's slightly Evil-leaning in the way St. Cuthbert is strongly Good-leaning (or so I interpret her). Check out the fact that her palace is in Acheron (the plane between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil), for instance. I always thought of Wee Jas as VERY LN. She isn't IMmoral; she's Amoral.
ArcTan 12-24-07, 11:21 PM	I think Boccob -- Wee Jas' rival magic deity, to whom she's often contrasted -- fits that ideal a little more strongly.
aelryinth 12-25-07, 01:03 AM	Pholtus in all the fiction is a very LN god. The Theocracy of the Pale is uncompromising religous LN fanatics, who consider that any interpretation of the Church that doesn't match their own perfectly is borderline blasphemy, and the LG servants of Pholtus found outside the Theocracy are almost heretics for deviating from the absolute code they lay down. Pholtus is LN(G). Cuthbert would more properly be LG (N). Pholtus definitely out-Laws him, because Pholtus doesn't have a soft side that Cuthbert does (Cuthbert is a protector as well as punisher). I really don't like the Theocracy because of the Greyhawk Wars. They reneged on a mutual protection treaty with Nyrond against the Fiend-using Great Kingdom simply because Nyrond wasn't totally sworn to the worship of Pholtus, and saw the whole fight as just one opportunity to pick up Nyrondese converts. pathetic losers...but very powerful! ===Aelryinth
Habbalah 01-02-08, 02:56 AM	I was told awhile ago that St. Cuthbert used to be Lawful Good with LN tendencies (like Pholtus) and that 3e tossed him onto LN to suit their needs for a core pantheon with a LN god of justice. Which is why Cuthbert seems more good than Pholtus, who seems more Lawful. Even though if you look at their alignments, Cuthbert is LN and Pholtus is LG. With a little work a dm could toss him to lawful evil. "Of course I favor Lawful good.. I'm right!" (Typical LN answer).